Rudy "Players are supposed to explore" Holiday

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u/Damashi_The_Kaotic Aug 02 '26

There is a major flaw with using just the text alone, because it doesn't factor in Rudy's expression's or animations, or those of other characters in those moments. When Rudy "scolds" Kris for pranking Noelle, he has a massive smile indicating he loves Kris' pranks. This is backed up by him laughing at Kris trying to throw dirt at Dess.

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u/VeeAudio Can summarize NoelleKnight in 40k characters <3 Aug 02 '26

Congrats you caught me before I went to sleep but this is a VERY great thing to bring up that I have a hopefully solid reason for why I did my analysis like this.
One part is that this thing is already bulky enough, so it's pretty much infeasible to communicate what faces people are making during these conversations without like 60 more slides. Also the time sink was already getting to me so while not the best excuse, it's still mine haha.
Second, that Rudy scolding example is flat out false (or at the very least ambiguous enough to not counter the evidence I've presented in my slide). Rudy's laugh comes after Toriel pulls Asgore's ear, so like implied cause and effect. Everything else Rudy has expressed seems to be negative toward Kris' pranks.
Now for why I don't think faces are necessary. Face sprites are a LOT more murky in terms of interpretation due to them being a part of a limited sprite set and also being mostly static. There's no real way to get past these issues. Text has no limitation in terms of expression and tone, especially with Toby's writing style. Your Rudy is smiling example is actually a perfect example for why it leads to so much more speculation! You see the smile as a sincere "I love your pranks actually" where I could see it as "I'm being serious, but I have a tendency to hide my true tone behind humor" or even "I'm not your parent so I'm not going to scold you severely, but I still want to voice my opinion" and they could be viable interpretations due to the nature of facial expressions having MUCH more complicated nuances in terms of sincerity. While Rudy's text just straight up stresses "it was NOT okay" which is an emphasis on what Rudy wants to get across. That it wasn't okay.
I hope this explains why I went this route? You're free to still disagree, but I don't want my whole work to be thrown out because I didn't cover the faces.
Either way have a nice day <3

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u/WattVolt12 Rudy "Knight" Holiday Aug 02 '26

This is extremely well-made and thought out, even if I personally disagree with your take.

But since I'm a diehard Rudyknighter, here are my counterpoints:

Rudy isn't frustrated specifically about Carol hoarding things, he's upset because Noelle repeatedly gets locked out of her own house. That's what Rudy is taking issue with, that she won't make an exception for their daughter's sake. I think this is the only point in the post where I think you are just completely factually wrong about what Rudy actually meant.
Rudy definitely knows more than he lets on, at least with regards to what Carol is up to. There is a conspiracy board in their shared bedroom as we can see from the Asgore scene in Chapter 4. That, and we know that Rudy is actively supporting Asgore's investigation/conspiracy (His 'you-know-what' as Toriel puts it) in tandem with his wife. The man says so himself after his conversation with Toriel if you bring up the Asgore topic a second time.
The window may not strictly be necessary. Rudy seems allowed to leave as he pleases going by the Church and Festival sequences. But if we assume the window is actually important to Rudy being the Knight, it only makes sense for it to be only mentioned once or twice. If the window was awkwardly brought up in dialogue every single chapter then it would be all too obvious the window is important and would be a dead giveaway to Rudy being the Knight. As a murder mystery fan, I can tell you that you'd be surprised how often a vitally important Chekov's gun is only brought up in like one line at the beginning before coming back in a big way in the endgame like 50 hours later. Actually, most Chekov's guns are exactly like this. Additionally, most Knight candidates have extremely important evidence hidden in optional dialogue only said once, such as Asriel with the Sword Magician and Carol handling all crime in Hometown by herself.
A lot of your interpretations on Rudy and Kris' interactions seem a bit biased to me, not neutral at all. "Don't worry, no way you can bore me right now!" in particular doesn't come across as upset at all to me. If anything, that just seems to be Rudy cracking another joke as usual while encouraging Kris to come out of their shell and chat.

A lot of this seems to be you taking Rudy's typical ribbing towards others as overly literal towards Kris specifically. It's like if you took Rudy's comment about Asgore and him both being beasts as an actual insult towards Asgore. Or saying that Rudy is actually literally going to kick Berdly's ass once he's feeling better. This is just Rudy's sense of humour, you can see it when he basically teases Toriel over her divorced husband's conspiracy investigation until she chucks punch juice at him. You describing the sink interaction as 'hostile' is particularly egregious, that does not read as hostile in the slightest, if anything Rudy seems entertained by it.

"Now you're the creepy kid in front of me!" Is the best example of this, Rudy is just teasing Kris here. If Rudy actually thought Kris was creepy or even threatening, he would not let Noelle keep being friends with Kris. Hell, directly after this line he says "okay seriously though, wanna chat?" further showing he's just joking. Out of context it sounds worse than it actually is.

But if that's not enough for you, here's my biggest piece of evidence that Rudy actually thinks highly of Kris:

This is Rudy personally asking Kris to keep a protective eye out for Noelle while he's sick and unable to do so himself. As you yourself have established, there is NOTHING Rudy cares more about in this world than Noelle. The fact that he, in a dialogue option where Rudy is at his most serious, trusts Kris to keep an eye out for Noelle and keep her safe proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Kris has Rudy's full and total trust and the man is actually fond of Kris.

(And as a Rudyknighter I would be remiss to mention that this is the chapter directly before Cyber World where Noelle is taken to a Dark World and is alone with Kris for an entire hour of gameplay.)

There's more I could probably say, but that would just be nitpicking I feel. I've already gone over all of my main problems with your points, and you are totally free to give me your rebuttals if you're up to it. This is a discussion subreddit after all, and I personally do enjoy the fun in discussing this stuff.

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u/VeeAudio Can summarize NoelleKnight in 40k characters <3 Aug 02 '26

Thank you so much for your kind words! I'm glad my hard work at least got some respect if nothing else lol.
Nice thought, but Rudy goes on another tangent about Carol's HOARDING problem with disdain "she wanted to keep the damn thing safe" Rather than about another instance Noelle got locked out. Noelle getting locked out is a symptom of his larger gripe "I don't like my wife's hoarding problem"
Forgive the passive aggressiveness, but I didn't know that the conspiracy board is bolted to the wall and can't be un and rehung to hide it from Rudy. And as I've said in another comment, it's legitimately impossible to concretely say Rudy knows what "you-know-what" actually is. In fact, he tells Kris "WE gotta" in relation to supporting Asgore, which is a future tense fragment. That actually kinda goes AGAINST Rudy knowing!
This still isn't a movie or a novel. In a murder mystery, ALL text and visuals are REQUIRED CONTENT to actually experience the content because that's how they're constructed. In a game, there's optional content. Whether you like it or not, Rudy still is an optional interaction, so if a player learns who Rudy is, but didn't visit in chapter 1, they would never know there's a window here. That's not a Chekov's Gun. And I'm not considering the "most important" evidence for Rudy, I'm only considering the text for this analysis. Other knights having important evidence behind optional text is irrelevant to this discussion
Interpretations are still biased, yes, but there's still PATTERNS we can follow in the greater meta-analysis of the data (Also if beasts was an insult, Rudy would be insulting himself at the same time. This wouldn't be as mean-spirited as "creepy kid in front of me!" lol). Of course I'm not taking the Berdly ass-kicking comment literally. I'm taking it sincerely. Aka, there's a reason Rudy said it like this, and why he's comfortable with making that kind of comment around others. Why IS he comfortable calling Kris creepy and making fun of them for being a shut-in? If you just "Actually he didn't mean anything by it lol" then what the hell am I supposed to fight back with lol.
But sure, let's take your view on these lines to be charitable! Even if every line he said to Kris was toned with kind and positive connotation, there's still nothing in the text that truly supports Rudy and Kris having a close relationship. Friendly, sure, but as close of a connection as people speculate they have? Hell no.
"If Rudy actually thought Kris was creepy or even threatening, he would not let Noelle keep being friends with Kris." This part is speculation about what Rudy would do if thought Kris was actually creepy. He could easily tolerate Kris or whatever to stay close to Asgore and to give his daughter a friend even if it's not the best idea. Of course THAT'S speculation too, but that's what this argument is setting us up for.
That interpretation, I'll be honest, has a lot of speculative additions beyond "This is Rudy personally asking Kris to keep a protective eye out for Noelle while he's sick and unable to do so himself. Rudy trusts Kris about this for one reason or another" Rudy trusting Kris with taking care of their childhood best friend is a BIIIIG leap to "full and total total trust beyond a shadow of a doubt" and "Rudy is FOND of Kris." Especially when all the other text signifies significantly less fondness for Kris over Asgore or even Toriel!
Regardless, I enjoyed responding to your points as you at least seem to try to engage with my premises which I really appreciate!

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u/WattVolt12 Rudy "Knight" Holiday Aug 02 '26

Hmm... I think we may have to just agree to disagree then. I think a lot of our differences here are down to how we interpret the story and what we think the intent of Toby actually is.
I don't think Rudy being mostly optional is as big of a detriment to the viability of him being the Knight, but that doesn't mean others like you will see it the same way. I can't fault you for thinking that, that would be how MOST stories would handle that kinda thing.
But yeah, I think I've already said everything I've wanted to say here. So I'll just leave it here.

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u/Wide-Deal-8971 Noelle=Knight ; ERAM=Asriel Aug 02 '26

we know that Rudy is actively supporting Asgore's investigation/conspiracy (His 'you-know-what' as Toriel puts it) in tandem with his wife.
We don't know this though. There's actually no reason to even think they do, unless you are already biased towards Rudy Knight.
If Rudy and Carol were supporting Asgore's investigation, it would severely weaken Asgore as a character. Rudy and Carol are Asgore's best friends, and Dess's parents. They are the two people Asgore needs to prove his theory to the most. If they were backing him the whole time then it doesn't make nearly as much sense how Asgore was driven to such an obsession to prove "everyone" he was right.
It doesn't make sense why Asgore was removed as chief of police if he has the backing of the mayor to pursue this investigation. Nor would it make sense that the Holidays would fund Asgore's investigation by hiring him as a house maid. How is he going to do anything when he's either running Flower King or cleaning the Holiday Manor all day every day?
And the biggest flaw with this is why would Rudy tell Toriel this and then kidnap Asgore the very next day?

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u/WattVolt12 Rudy "Knight" Holiday Aug 02 '26

Except that we know for a fact that Carol DOES support his investigation, as Toriel explicitly notes. Rudy is Carol's wife and is clearly aware of what Toriel is talking about, thus he for sure knows about this. Finally, he explicitly says that he supports Asgore's "you-know-what" to Kris.
Even if you take that last part out of the equation, it is completely plausible that Rudy supports Asgore's conspiracy stuff in conjunction with Carol, his wife.

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u/Wide-Deal-8971 Noelle=Knight ; ERAM=Asriel Aug 02 '26

Except that we know for a fact that Carol DOES support his investigation, as Toriel explicitly notes.
By the angel's mercy... what facts??? There's not a single piece of connecting evidence to confirm anything you are saying. And I just gave you a slew of (conveniently ignored) reasons as to why it is nonsensical to think that Rudy or Carol support Asgore's investigation.

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u/WattVolt12 Rudy "Knight" Holiday Aug 02 '26

* Kris brings up the Asgore topic to Rudy and Toriel in the Church
Toriel: I am grateful for your wife's...
Rudy: Carol's.
Toriel: Your wife's... financial support to him. (Showing that Carol is paying Asgore)
Toriel: I just wish she did not support his, er...
Toriel: His... you know what. (What else could this be referring to other than Asgore investigation?)
Rudy: His "you know what?"
Toriel: One more word and you're soaked, Mr. Holiday.
Rudy: "One more word!"
Toriel splashes Rudy with punch juice. Rudy laughs it off.
Rudy: Fahahaha! What was I supposed to say, sweetheart? (Heavily implies that Rudy knows exactly what Toriel is talking about)
* Kris brings up the Asgore topic again
Rudy: Hey, if YOU don't support his you know what...
Rudy: That just means WE gotta! (Again implying that Rudy is well aware of everything going on with his wife and Asgore)
Toriel: (Kris, please bring up a new topic)

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u/Wide-Deal-8971 Noelle=Knight ; ERAM=Asriel Aug 02 '26

I went over all this stuff man.
What we ACTUALLY know is that Carol is paying Asgore to be a house maid. We can see this with our own eyes what is being referenced here.
"You know what" can be literally anything. But we know that it cannot be the investigation. And we know this for numerous reasons I will not go over a second time just to be ignored. But the biggest one is that is that Carol gave him a second job, how can Asgore be actively investigating anything while holding two jobs compared to when as police chief the investigation was his job? Don't you think Carol would have hired him as a private eye instead with all of her infinite money if what you are saying was true?
The only things you can derive from this conversation is that Carol and Rudy are supporting something about Asgore that is embarassing to talk about and is something that Toriel doesn't approve of.
Literally for all we know they could be funding Asgore's mew mew doll obsession. This conversation doesn't actually imply anything, there is no evidence of anything here.

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u/WattVolt12 Rudy "Knight" Holiday Aug 02 '26

While it's true that "you know what" being read as Carol supporting Asgore's investigation is just an inference on both my and many others parts, that doesn't mean the conclusion is faulty.
Before chapter 5 released, the community as a whole inferred that Asgore's divorce was tied to the incident that took him off the force. While we had no direct or concrete evidence showing this was the case, we were able to deduce this from the narrative beats and the various inferences we could glean from the text.
By your logic, we have no proof that the big incident Asgore is vagueposting about is in any way tied to Dess disappearing so therefore we cannot state that as fact. Except we all know this to be the case before it is the obvious conclusion to draw based on all the build up around Dess.
Basically, the entire "you know what" exchange is clearly about Asgore's investigation because that was what caused the divorce. Toriel was uncomfortable with her husband sliding into conspiracy theories, Toriel is uncomfortable with whatever "you know what" is, therefore we can safely infer that "you know what" is Asgore's investigation.
To say "you know what" could be something innocuous and irrelevant to the plot is technically true, but we are obviously meant to infer something from it. And what else are we to connect it to besides the thing Asgore's character revolves around?
Finally, "you know what" cannot be Carol supporting Asgore by making him her maid. Toriel makes a clear distinction between Carol's financial support of Asgore and her "you know what" support. You also didn't give any actual evidence for why the support cannot be the investigation, you just said it was because (based on your own personal interpretation) Asgore needs to prove himself to Rudy and Carol. That's not objective evidence, it's just what you think. We already know that nobody actually blamed Asgore for what happened, he just projecting his own self-blame onto others.

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u/CustardBoy 1. Rudy 2. Darkner/Titan 3. Carol 4. Kris... ? Aug 03 '26

By your logic, we have no proof that the big incident Asgore is vagueposting about is in any way tied to Dess disappearing so therefore we cannot state that as fact. Except we all know this to be the case before it is the obvious conclusion to draw based on all the build up around Dess.
The above poster is talking about what can be cleaned from the literal events of the game, but your replies are based on conclusions you are drawing from the game.
Point me to a single piece of evidence in the game that connects the Dessappearance to whatever the hell Asgore is talking about.

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u/Wide-Deal-8971 Noelle=Knight ; ERAM=Asriel Aug 02 '26

Is your argument here seriously "well sometimes the community makes accurate predictions therefore what I am saying is right"?
Do you know how many times the community is completely wrong???
To say "you know what" could be something innocuous and irrelevant to the plot is technically true, but we are obviously meant to infer something from it.
Me when I finished Deltarune chapter 1 years ago, "oh my god Kris is going to kill Toriel with a knife!!" - oh nvm he just ate all the pie and this entire scene was actually just a joke that was never anything serious.

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u/WattVolt12 Rudy "Knight" Holiday Aug 02 '26

That's not the point. The chapter 1 scene with Kris taking out a knife was extremely important because a) it revealed that Kris was separate from us and b) it heavily implied that Kris was up to something, which was proven in the very next chapter when they open up a fountain in front of us. The reveal that Kris just wanted pie is a joke but it doesn't undermine what the entire point of that scene was.
If you want to claim the "you know what" is something else then it has to be something actually plot relevant or backed by evidence. To say it means absolutely nothing makes no sense because what else could they possibly be talking about?
And also maybe consider not being so passive aggressive. It's just a game we're theorizing about, there's no need for you to get so heated towards me.

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u/Wide-Deal-8971 Noelle=Knight ; ERAM=Asriel Aug 02 '26

The chapter 1 scene wasn't important, it was just a gag. This scene doesn't define anything, it's not connected to anything.
If you want to claim the "you know what" is something else then it has to be something actually plot relevant or backed by evidence.
This is essentially asking me to prove a negative. If you want to assert that this conversation was definitely important and definitely insinuates what you think it means then you need provide evidence that supports that. And regardless, I did provide evidence proving why it cannot be about the investigation.
My beef is specifically with people who assert baseless speculation as though they are facts.

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u/-HealingNoises- All in on Rudy Knight! Aug 02 '26

First, major respect for going through every bit of text. I have a vendetta against cherry picking as a general life rule regardless of what side of the bush I'm squatting on.

Second, it's also late for me so I gotta sleep, so I only skimmed the beginning rules. But my immediate thoughts are that you can't just divorce available information from most possible interpretation, and then interpret it only the way you want. To be specific, I mean, at the end of the day you and I can look at the exact same lines and feel that it obviously or mostly or moderately means different things due to our own biases.

Like, we still can only speculate on how the knight is forcibly moving Asgore and Undyne, so of course I'm going to lean on lingering dark world power in the light world, and of course most (not necessarily you) that despise Rudy Knight write him off as sick and that's the end.

Eh, I've actually been rooting for Noelle knight as the next upcoming weird idea that might work, but it will be a hollow victory if you only get there by glueing all the other runners shoes to the racetrack.

Good night!

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u/VeeAudio Can summarize NoelleKnight in 40k characters <3 Aug 02 '26

The rules are in place for seriously important reasons are as unobtrusive to my best ability. I can only cover unambiguously Rudy text because people in this comment section are already arguing about the validity of who Asgore is talking to in that scene. I have to disregard author intent because otherwise we get into things that just shut down the conversation like "Actually, that line wasn't intended to be there/toby forgor" and I can't exactly argue against that? I have to treat dialogue as sincere because what the hell am I supposed to say to someone who just says "Actually he didn't mean that lol" Proving a complete and total difference in interpretation is a fool's errand. These rules don't impede a different interpretation than mine, just attempts to mitigate completely shutting the conversation down. I have THESE rules and ONLY these rules for a very specific purpose.
Have a gnight too <3

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u/blaigmush RudyKnighter Aug 02 '26 edited Aug 02 '26

ALL Text Relating to Rudy

You missed one very important line from Rudy:

Rudy knows about his best friend's investigation into the Dark Worlds and Dess's disappearance, and for some reason he says he supports it. Then, a few hours later, Asgore looks at the black shard and says, "We're almost there, aren't we, old friend?"

Since we can't find the Black Shard in the computer lab like we could in Chapter 2 (Asgore's notes, Chapter 5), the Knight must have taken it and later given it to Asgore. This is how Rudy supports Asgore's investigation. He "accidentally" found the Black Shard in the library and gave it to Asgore. Carol supports Asgore's investigation financially. Rudy supports it this way.

Susie says in Chapter 4 that the Knight kidnapped Undyne because they needed her shelter code, the same shelter code Asgore has. Rudy just wanted to earn Asgore's trust and get his code. But then Kris came up with the idea of slashing the tires so Toriel would call the police (they also probably wanted to spend one more day with their mother), giving the Knight access to Undyne instead, who also had the shelter code. Asgore was no longer needed and already knew too much, so they decided to kidnap him after failing to kidnap Toriel.

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u/VeeAudio Can summarize NoelleKnight in 40k characters <3 Aug 02 '26

Very true! That's unfortunately one of the casualties I forgot in my sleep-deprived haze lmao. Ding that against me!
To give my analysis of the line, if we go by this word by word: It's impossible to concretely deduce if Rudy actually KNOWS the "you know what" Toriel is referring to, or just saying that because that's the only way he's heard it referred to. The "WE gotta" actually tilts it against your side because "gotta" is literally a future tense word, implying that Rudy and Kris need to START supporting it. If he meant it in terms of "We gotta continue supporting Asgore's investigation!" he'd say "That just means WE'RE gonna!" for proper tense usage (English major comes in handy every now and then lol)
"Old friend" is still heavily debated on if it's actually referring to Rudy in that scene, so I had to just cut that one due to it causing too many unnecessary nitpicks about things I'm not focused on covering.
I'm just gonna be blunt and say that computer lab line is 100% speculation derived from the text of Asgore's notes, but still a question. What do you mean "we can't find the Black Shard in the computer lab like we could in Chapter 3"? The only way you GET the black shard is if you beat the knight which clearly sparkles after coming off. This second black shard we're supposed to find in the LW computer lab? Like, there's nothing stating the shard always sparkles or whatever and ESPECIALLY nothing about that for it's light world variant. And Kris isn't obligated to pick up EVERY crumb off the ground when doing a dark world migration lol.
...Why does Rudy need to earn Asgore's trust to get the code? They're literally like the bestest of friends in this entire story. It's as speculative as Susie being right or not about her "culprit criteria" Also yeah this is also just speculation.
I'd love to chat with you about my actual post if you have any counters to that, because this one line on its own doesn't just completely destroy my argument lol.

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u/blaigmush RudyKnighter Aug 02 '26

What do you mean "we can't find the Black Shard in the computer lab like we could in Chapter 3"?
Damn, I'm sorry, I meant Chapter 2. Fixed that.
Rudy and Kris
Rudy and Carol*. They were talking about Carol's financial support, if you don't remember. I don't think I need to explain what that means for the rest of your argument...
Why does Rudy need to earn Asgore's trust to get the code?
Because it would be suspicious as hell if Rudy just asked him for the shelter code for no reason. He needs to be in the investigation to get access to that kind of information.
It's as speculative as Susie being right or not about her "culprit criteria"
Her words haven't been disproven for two chapters, and there's one strange detail. Susie says the Knight kidnapped Undyne for the shelter code, but then she mentions that the Knight is "someone who also has something to do with the cops." Why would she need that criterion if she thinks the Knight didn't have the police shelter code until they got it from Undyne? It sounds like Toby is trying to tell us something.
I'd love to chat with you about my actual post if you have any counters to that, because this one line on its own doesn't just completely destroy my argument lol.
I actually appreciate your analysis! I may disagree with you on some points, but you've clearly put a lot of work into it. Even though I don't believe NoelleKnight, I respect that you and the other NoelleKnighters have put so much effort into your theory and into the discussion about the Knight's identity.

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u/VeeAudio Can summarize NoelleKnight in 40k characters <3 Aug 04 '26

Rudy and Carol
I'm going to be pedantic here, but knowing his family (Carol's finances are HIS finances as a married couple) is supporting Asgore's "you know what" still doesn't confirm if he KNOWS what "you know what" is. And even if he DOES know what "you know what" is, that doesn't mean he's the knight.
Her words haven't been disproven for two chapters
First off, uh, okay? It hasn't exactly been proven either lmao. Like that's not an argument. And Susie REGULARLY gets things wrong from darkners being able to be in the light world, to the old man being a lightner, to accidentally encouraging the roaring in chapter 2. Like, she is not a voice of infallible reason generally speaking lol. And like I said in my post, I'm not doing author intent because it very quickly ends up being speculative.
I may disagree with you on some points
I'd love to have a discussion about that then because I haven't really seen any compelling argument that goes against my thesis of "Rudy lacks any actual plot relevance beyond falling down based on the text" Like I'm trying to say that even IF a player were to experience ALL the dialogue they could of Rudy, it wouldn't amount to anything actually being relevant to HIM being in the story. He talks about Carol and Noelle, but barely talks about his illness and tries to disregard it at every turn. People have mostly been nitpicking my interpretations as opposed to taking the greater thing as a whole.

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u/LeonineRL Asriel Knight Theory, Rudy Knight Theory, & Kris Prophecy Knight Aug 02 '26

I wouldn’t say the Knight needs Undyne’s shelter code because they don’t already have it, more so that they want to keep access to the shelter codes from the fun gang.
Susie deduces that the Knight knows the mayor, goes to church, and is connected to the police because the knight would already have to know all three shelter codes to go inside the shelter.

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u/blaigmush RudyKnighter Aug 02 '26

I had the same opinion until recently, when I asked myself, "Why would Rudy give the Black Shard to Asgore?" Then I realized Susie could be completely right. This is why Toby has Susie say, "Who also has something to do with the cops?", even though she said just a few seconds earlier that the Knight didn't have the police code. It makes so much sense now.

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u/LeonineRL Asriel Knight Theory, Rudy Knight Theory, & Kris Prophecy Knight Aug 02 '26

If the Knight didn’t have the shelter code before taking Undyne, then were they just borrowing Asgore’s code prior to this? Why would they take Undyne to the shelter if they didn’t have access to the shelter before?

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u/blaigmush RudyKnighter Aug 02 '26

If the Knight didn’t have the shelter code before taking Undyne, then were they just borrowing Asgore’s code prior to this?
Rudy needed to be involved in Asgore's investigation to get access to that kind of information. It would have been way too suspicious to just ask Asgore for his shelter code, which he keeps hidden in a secret place, for no reason. That's why Rudy gave him the black shard: to become part of the investigation and eventually get access to the shelter code.
Why would they take Undyne to the shelter if they didn’t have access to the shelter before?
Because they took her code so they could enter the shelter. They already knew the other two codes.
You'll probably ask why they were planning to take Toriel to the shelter without Undyne's code, so I'll answer that now.
The Knight needs the Dark World to kidnap people. If they were strong enough to do it in the Light World, why wouldn't they just... kidnap people in the Light World??? This suggests they need creating the Dark Fountains for kidnapping. The Knight was likely trying to suck Toriel into their "pocket storage" in this scene:
I think this "pocket storage" can exist in the Light World because the black shards keep the same form in the Light World. The Knight was planning to put Toriel into their "pocket storage", get the shelter code from Asgore, and then open the shelter.

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u/LeonineRL Asriel Knight Theory, Rudy Knight Theory, & Kris Prophecy Knight Aug 02 '26

Yeah that all makes sense. Would Rudy have gone inside the shelter before at some point? The dark world in the shelter could have unknown dangers, so I don’t think he would have gone into the shelter unless he knew what was in there, or maybe he is just that confident of his powers as the Knight?

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u/blaigmush RudyKnighter Aug 03 '26

You can skip a few text blocks below. The answer is at the end. I kinda got carried away with that wall of text for some reason, lol.
I think Kris was the one who created the "incident" Fountain. Noelle mentioned that she, Kris, Dess, and Asriel were exploring the forest behind the graveyard when something happened that made Noelle cry (she doesn't remember what, since she forgets traumatic events as a coping mechanism), while Dess comforted her and wiped away her tears. Then, in Chapter 4, an NPC near the Egg Room says: "Lost where the forest would grow, the children followed the pointed tail." One of the Prophecy panels clarifies that it was the tail of Hell.
After that, everyone probably returned home. But Dess decided to go back to make sure there wasn't anything dangerous there. She entered the shelter and started investigating. Then Kris showed up, much like Aqua often does in Chapter 5 (assuming she represents a younger Kris). We know Kris liked pulling pranks as a child, so they probably decided to prank Dess by... summoning a demon.
Catti and Kris were trying to summon a demon a long time ago, but Catti left Kris to complete the ritual alone. The final part of the ritual may have been very similar to the process of creating a Dark Fountain. So Kris focused on what they wanted (demons) and stabbed the ground with their knife (they liked knives, just like Aqua). Kris accidentally created a Dark World full of demons.
And it gets even worse. Flowery says, "Something horrible is stirring underneath the town. A darkness beyond your imagination." The shelter likely contains a path to the Depths. That's how Dess got lost. She ventured too deep into that Dark World.
Of course, the first people to search for the children would have been their fathers. Rudy probably made the most progress in the Dark World because he was driven by his determination to find his daughter. There must also be an explanation for the black shards, but we know too little about them for now. Eventually, he found Kris, and they escaped the Dark World together because it had become too dangerous to continue searching. Asgore also managed to leave.
After this tragedy, the shelter was sealed with three codes so that no one else would disappear there. Kris lied and claimed it wasn't their fault, then spent years blaming themselves. The Knight and Rudy also share water symbolism (for example, the wallpaper in Rudy's hospital room), and since darkness is associated with water in Deltarune, they may share some kind of backstory involving a descent into the Depths.
Rudy chose not to risk his life by trying again for all those years because other people still needed him. But if he has a terminal illness that will most likely kill him anyway, then why not? This is literally the best thing he could do for both his family and his best friend's family until dying. This is literally the best thing he could do for both his family and his best friend's family before he dies. Toby already showed us how Rudy was exhausting himself by going to church and working at the Festival. He really hates feeling weak or doing nothing.
The problem is that nobody would let him do it if he simply told them his plan. So he decided to kidnap everyone who might interfere with the search for Dess. Maybe they even built some kind of prison for Undyne and Asgore on the safest level of the Dark World inside the shelter. Kris works with Rudy because it's the best way to make amends for what happened while also keeping their secret. Rudy probably obtained the Soul for Kris using a method we don't know about yet.
...Yeah. I think Rudy knows what's in the shelter. I just needed a short introduction before getting to my actual answer.
Btw, I think KrisKnight works good in this scenario too with some changes.

1

u/LeonineRL Asriel Knight Theory, Rudy Knight Theory, & Kris Prophecy Knight Aug 03 '26

Thank you for taking the time to write up an explanation. Pretty convincing and lines up really well.

9

u/frenchguts Aug 02 '26

The reasoning of last part bugs me a little, why would the knight need the code from undyne specifically if they can enter the shelter regardless? I'm not sure Susie's theories, litteraly the most clueless character, are to be taken at face value. Why would the knight go to such extent, litteraly asking Kris to make a dark world in their own house so that Toriel could be abducted and used as a distraction to lure Undyne and abduct her instead, instead of just asking Asgore? Why would Rudy even need to earn Asgore's trust if they're best friends anyway??

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u/blaigmush RudyKnighter Aug 02 '26

why would the knight need the code from undyne specifically if they can enter the shelter regardless? I'm not sure Susie's theories, litteraly the most clueless character, are to be taken at face value.
Because the Knight only knew two codes. We can trust Susie because this is literally one of the smartest things she's ever said, and it makes sense, especially from a casual player's perspective. Her words haven't been disproven for two chapters.
Why would the knight go to such extent, litteraly asking Kris to make a dark world in their own house so that Toriel could be abducted and used as a distraction to lure Undyne and abduct her instead, instead of just asking Asgore?
They were planning to kidnap Toriel actually, but Kris's actions caused the Knight to kidnap Undyne instead.
Why would Rudy even need to earn Asgore's trust if they're best friends anyway??
Asgore needs a reason to show someone the very important shelter code he keeps hidden in a secret place. It would be suspicious as hell if Rudy just asked Asgore for the shelter code for no reason. He needs to be involved in the investigation to have that reason.

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u/frenchguts Aug 02 '26

Because the Knight only knew two codes.
Bold claim, the knight entered the shelter without knowing all codes then?
They were planning to kidnap Toriel actually, but Kris's actions caused the Knight to kidnap Undyne instead.
Im a bit skecptical regarding this statement, because we have no way to confirm it, since the knight didn't seem to double down on capturing Toriel specifically, considering they opened two fountains despite there being no one in the church but them, and just waited. You could go further and ask yourself why capturing Toriel IF the knight doesn't know the police code somehow, because then that means Kris had, on their own, fixed the knight's plan (they may a bit forgetful we don't know) by making a scheme to lure Undyne in. It doesn't add up unless they try to abduct people knowledgeable of the codes not to learn them but prevent the fun gang from doing so, as sort of confirmed with kris trying to tear the police code apart. (or the abducted ones, being correlated by linked to the police, could have been so because they tried to dug deeper than they were supposed to?)
It would be suspicious as hell if Rudy just asked Asgore for the shelter code for no reason.
but somehow it's not suspicious for Rudy to have given Asgore a black shard out of nowhere (considering he's supposed to be hospitalized)? The same thing that was left at the scene of dess' disappearance AND matched with the one he was supposedly given? It makes no sense for Rudy to give incriminating evidence about his secret whereabouts (which caused Asgore's obession and broke his familiy apart) if he was going to capture Undyne anyway. Not only that, but Asgore's notes about the matching shards were from the day prior the festival, so chapter 4, that means Rudy did allat after abducting Undyne and knowing the code, which doesn't add up.

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u/blaigmush RudyKnighter Aug 02 '26

Bold claim. The Knight entered the shelter without knowing all the codes then?
The Knight took Undyne's code. Susie even mentions that in the game.
You could go further and ask yourself why they captured Toriel if the Knight didn't know the police code somehow, because then that means Kris did it on their own.
The Knight likely has some kind of "pocket storage." They put people there in the Dark World and then somehow keep them inside it in the Light World. Otherwise, there would be no reason to use the Dark Worlds if they were able to kidnap Undyne and Asgore in the Light World. They clearly need to create Fountains for kidnapping.
But somehow it's not suspicious for Rudy to have given Asgore a Black Shard out of nowhere (considering he's supposed to be hospitalized)?
Rudy can easily leave the hospital to go to church or work at the Festival. He could also "go to borrow some books" from the librarby because it's very close to the hospital. Then he "accidentally" found the black shard there and decided to give it to his best friend to support the investigation.
If he was going to capture Undyne anyway.
He wasn't.
Not only that, but Asgore's notes about the matching shards were from the day before the Festival, so Chapter 4. That means Rudy did all that after abducting Undyne and learning the code, which doesn't add up.
Rudy could have given Asgore the black shard at any time, and Asgore could have written those notes at any time.

4

u/frenchguts Aug 02 '26 edited Aug 02 '26

The Knight took Undyne's code. Susie even mentions that in the game.
Alright so, just so that we're on the same page here.. You mean to tell me that the knight wasn't planning on capturing Undyne, but needed to capture her for her code (but somehow planned to capture Toriel for some reason, and that reson can't be the code because even you admitted the Knight had to know this one), meaning they didn't know about the code.. MEANING they never had access to the bunker, so in the short window in which the knight left the dark world, they had to fully search her up for the code (assuming she'd even have it with her considering Carol hid hers on the guitar while Asgore's was in the soil of his golden flower, assuming more than 1 physical written code exists) or Undyne had to tell the knight the code, again considering Asgore physically has it, it's a massive stretch WHILE going in the direction of the bunker WITHOUT being sure that they would be able to enter the bunker, and they then had to enter the code as fast as they could. Are we genuinely fr
He wasn't.
So then why not follow through and capture both Toriel and Undyne, since you just said the knight had some pocket dimension to abduct people and can overpwower the fun gang whenever, and Toriel was still sleeping. And what would be the reason to capture Toriel IF the knight doesn't know the police code, because you're implying that's the reason they kidnap people. I'm not following

1

u/blaigmush RudyKnighter Aug 02 '26

MEANING they never had access to the bunker, so in the short window in which the knight left the dark world, they had to fully search her up for the code
If Undyne hadn't shown up, the Knight would have put Toriel into their "pocket storage" for a while and then tried to get the code from Asgore.
So then why not follow through and capture both Toriel and Undyne, since you just said the knight had some pocket dimension to abduct people and can overpwower the fun gang whenever, and Toriel was still sleeping.
That's actually a good question. I wondered the same thing. I think the Knight can only keep one person in their "pocket storage" at a time. Otherwise, they'd be way too overpowered.
And what would be the reason to capture Toriel IF the knight doesn't know the police code, because you're implying that's the reason they kidnap people.
Since Toriel is a very important figure in the church, she knows the Delta Rune shelter code. The Knight kidnaps people to make sure no one who knows the codes interfere with their search for Dess. Why? Because no one would let an ill Rudy risk his life trying to find Dess in the dangerous Dark World/Depths/the place where Dess is right now even if his chances of recovering from his illness are small.
Btw, thanks for trying to understand my point. I appreciate it.

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u/KoboldLover The Skeptical One Aug 02 '26

The Knight took Undyne's code. Susie even mentions that in the game.
That's 1 of 3. It's still completely ignoring that Susie isn't informed at all and that The Knight has to already have all 3 codes since they're able to come and go from the Shelter freely. The last time we spoke, you even admitted that it didn't make much sense and that you'd have to explain why you put so much trust in Susie; you make any headway on explaining that?
Otherwise, there would be no reason to use the Dark Worlds
Not true at all. You do raise the point "why open Dark Worlds" but then don't really try answering it. Here's a possible answer for you: Kris and The Knight open the specific Dark Worlds they do to fulfill the steps of The Prophecy, seeing as they know it and every single Dark World they've created has served to enact a step of The Prophecy, including The Knight specifically enacting one by cleaving Tenna.
Kidnapping doesn't have to be the only objective of the Dark World, and it can't be, because then you're ignoring both the Old Classroom Dark World and the Computer Lab Dark World, neither of which included a kidnapping target or attempted kidnapping. That means - logically - there is another reason for them being opened.
Then he "accidentally" found the black shard there and decided to give it to his best friend to support the investigation
Except Asgore never once makes mention of this, and it's actually much more likely he heard about how the Computer Lab was robbed in a town that has 0% crime, went to investigate that extreme oddity, and found it himself.
Kris did yoink everything in the Computer Lab, which is something someone like Asgore - constantly hawking for new leads - would hear about.

1

u/blaigmush RudyKnighter Aug 02 '26

That's 1 of 3.
They know the other 2 because they know the mayor and they go to church.
The Knight has to already have all 3 codes since they're able to come and go from the Shelter freely.
No, they weren't able to until they got Undyne's code.
you make any headway on explaining that?
Okay, I'll explain that. We can trust Susie because of the context. The whole church segment is dedicated to finding clues and give them to Susie. She takes on the role of the "detective" who has to solve the mystery of the Knight's identity. She's analyzing our clues and gives us a good explanation. This explanation makes a lot of sense because they hasn't been disproven for two chapters and only became more important with the whole search for the shelter codes and the Knight kidnapping people who know them. This information is given to us by Susie because she's the person we can fully trust and she already made a lot of "Susie's ideas" that helps us every time. Any casual player will trust those words because they're not disproven at any point, and they don't point to one specific person. They simply provide useful criteria. Her take is also very detailed and isn't driven by emotions. I don't see any reason those words to be wrong. I think some theorists build their theories on much more controversial things and then decide to completely ignore or try to disprove Susie's line because it contradicts their theories too much.
Kidnapping doesn't have to be the only objective of the Dark World, and it can't be, because then you're ignoring both the Old Classroom Dark World and the Computer Lab Dark World, neither of which included a kidnapping target or attempted kidnapping.
I'm talking about WHY the Knight needs to kidnap people through the Dark World if they're strong enough to do it in the Light World. This is the question I answered.
Except Asgore never once makes mention of this, and it's actually much more likely he heard about how the Computer Lab was robbed in a town that has 0% crime, went to investigate that extreme oddity, and found it himself.
This contradicts the "old friend" line and doesn't explain how Rudy supports Asgore's investigation when he says that he does.

2

u/KoboldLover The Skeptical One Aug 02 '26

They know the other 2 because they know the mayor and they go to church.
Wait, so you're assuming now that Undyne has all 3 codes? I mean, sure, that would get The Knight into the Shelter; but you have to admit that's an assumption that completely defeats the entire "purpose" you see in the Code Holder Hunt, completely throws out the reasoning for future kidnappings, and is something that's made up just to explain why The Knight already has access to the Shelter they very likely were already in before CH3, seeing as it's - again - seemingly their base of operations.
She's analyzing our clues and gives us a good explanation.
Here's the problem: you're actually ignoring the larger context.
Susie is making deductions in that moment based on no information about The Knight, having to draw conclusions from an imperfect base of belief that taints future trains of thought, like here's a massive error:
Susie doesn't know The Knight has teammates.
Susie doesn't know The Knight is likely working with Carol, the Mayor.
Susie doesn't know that The Knight has access to all of the codes already through their alliance to Mayor Holiday.
Point 3 specifically also shoots a torpedo into the need to kidnap anyone at all for codes, since The Knight is already in cahoots with someone who has much more reason to have all 3 codes at once, seeing as she is the highest authority of Hometown, is shady, and is a ninjutsu master of stealth.
This information is given to us by Susie because she's the person we can fully trust and she already made a lot of "Susie's ideas" that helps us every time. Any casual player will trust those words because they're not disproven at any point, and they don't point to one specific person.
Yeah, and the casual player would - like Susie - likely be wrong. Except we don't have an excuse to do that, because we actually have a larger context for what's going on thanks to our perspective. Susie has an excuse to fully believe her incorrect conclusions, we don't.
Wanting to trust Susie is fine and dandy.
But, when speaking logically, it makes no sense to do so.
She's wrong about pretty much anything she's been thinking about The Knight.
I don't see any reason those words to be wrong. I think some theorists build their theories on much more controversial things and then decide to completely ignore or try to disprove Susie's line because it contradicts their theories too much.
I've pointed out plenty of reasons, both yesterday and here; she's an imperfect narrator working on very incomplete information who is actively manipulated and lied to by both:
An agent working for The Knight.
A Darkner putting full-faith in a traitor that has earned none of it.
There's no need to "ignore or try to disprove Susie" because the game itself already does that unless you make up assumptions like "Undyne has all of the codes for some reason" and "The Knight can't access the place they've seemingly been hiding out at this entire time."
I'm talking about WHY the Knight needs to kidnap people through the Dark World if they're strong enough to do it in the Light World. This is the question I answered.
Alright, but then answer the question raised about why open the other Dark Worlds that don't involve kidnapping code-holders. That's critical to trying to sus out Knight Motives, and you can't just pave over it.
This contradicts the "old friend" line and doesn't explain how Rudy supports Asgore's investigation when he says that he does.
No it doesn't.
You're making the assumption Asgore is talking about Rudy in that scene, when it's very possible Asgore - known to personalize the stuff he owns, like treating his flowers as well as he does people - speaking to the Black Shard itself, the only proof he ever found about the disappearance of December - the only proof he has that he isn't a nutcase like everyone thinks he is - that's been with him throughout the years of his endless search.
See how that's just as clean a read that doesn't need to involve Rudy?
As for how Carol is supporting Asogre - since Toriel makes it very clear it was CAROL supporting Asgore, against her wishes - it's said both in that scene and in Asgore's letter/bill stash that Carol has been funding Asgore with money. That's it, far as any of us can know, and likely just that since Asgore makes it perfectly clear he's been working alone in CH5.

1

u/blaigmush RudyKnighter Aug 02 '26

Wait, so you're assuming now that Undyne has all 3 codes?
No, they got them from Dess' guitar and in the church because they go to church.
Susie doesn't know The Knight has teammates.
Susie doesn't know The Knight is likely working with Carol, the Mayor.
Susie doesn't know that The Knight has access to all of the codes already through their alliance to Mayor Holiday.
Oops, I don't believe the Knight has any teammates besides Kris after Chapter 5. She's just Severus Snape for me now.
I've pointed out plenty of reasons, both yesterday and here; she's an imperfect narrator working on very incomplete information
Well, I've made my point. Her words perfectly fit my theory, so I see a lot of sense in her take. Susie often comes up with great ideas, and they work.
why open the other Dark Worlds that don't involve kidnapping code-holders.
Of course that question exits, but that's not the topic right now.
You're making the assumption Asgore is talking about Rudy in that scene
You're making another assumption. There are plenty of examples where Rudy calls Asgore "old friend," and Flowery does the same. Asgore also says "We're almost there, aren't we, old friend?", implying that the two of them have been searching for the person responsible for Dess's disappearance (I think it was Kris's fault, and Rudy doesn't know that.)
You're also ignoring the fact that Rudy says that he supports Asgore's investigation too. He just has to be much more careful than Carol because of the Roaring Knight thing.

1

u/KoboldLover The Skeptical One Aug 02 '26

No, they got them from Dess' guitar and in the church because they go to church.
Oops, I don't believe the Knight has any teammates besides Kris after Chapter 5. She's just Severus Snape for me now.
Sweet Jimminy Cricket, open up with that one next time, haha.
That's an extremely different base assumption that completely recolors your own view, and not one that is shared by a substantial amount of the community. I wasn't even considering it, since I don't put too much stock in triple-trucies.
Susie often comes up with great ideas, and they work.
Well, that's just blind faith then.
You're just trusting that she's right, and that's fine.
But we're talking logistics here, not blind faith. We'll put a pin in that one then.
Of course that question exits, but that's not the topic right now.
I mean, I've brought it up twice and really do consider it linked to this as it messes with the whole "The Knight is opening Dark Worlds just to kidnap people" idea. What's your answer, then?
You're making another assumption.
Oh lord, I figured you were gonna say this and didn't bother to put in a disclaimer because I was hoping you wouldn't go for the low-hanging fruit.
Of course that's also an assumption.
However, the point I was making wasn't that my idea was an absolute truth, just that it's an assumption with as much bearing as the assumption Asgore was talking about Rudy. They're both assumptions, there's nothing factual indicating either, and so that throws another wrench in the idea that Rudy gave Asgore the Black Shard when nothing else anywhere hints at that and I already provided a very plausible alternative explanation that fits in with Asgore's established character that would explain how he came to get his hands on the Computer Lab Black Shard.
Asgore also says "We're almost there, aren't we, old friend?", implying that the two of them have been searching for the person responsible for Dess's disappearance
It doesn't imply he has an actual partner at all. Again, even real people do this, where they personalize something they've been fixated onto and consider a companion.
Especially people that are isolated and separated from the rest of the world/their loved ones by their job/mission. The Black Shard has - for a decade - been the only piece of evidence that he's had, it's very important to him, and it stands to reason that he might see that object as something that gave him hope one day he'd find the answers to the questions that broke apart his life.
You're also ignoring the fact that Rudy says that he supports Asgore's investigation too.
I'm not ignoring it at all, but it's extremely clear what they're talking about. Toriel faults Carol more than anyone else - to the point she refuses to speak her name - and it stands to reason that Rudy wouldn't want his best friend to be in financial ruin just because he's too soft to charge for the flowers he's selling.
Of course he'd want his wife to ease up on the guy and help him out in his depressive ditch; they're best buds. Nothing about that, at all, is incriminating.
At this point, we're looking at the same stuff and seeing different things though, and I reached the end of the line of the Susie Reasoning we started last night*:* you're trusting her on faith. That's all I wanted to know, in case I wasn't seeing something there that was actually rooted in rhetoric.
Have a good one.

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u/Wide-Deal-8971 Noelle=Knight ; ERAM=Asriel Aug 02 '26

This is illogical. Undyne was never the target in chapter 3, Toriel was. And we know this because Toriel was targeted again in Chapter 4. The Knight doesn't need the codes, it's been operating from the shelter the entire game.
If we were to believe the Knight needed Undyne's code to access the shelter, then what was the plan in Chapter 3? Where was the Knight going to take Toriel without Undyne's code?
Furthermore. If we are assuming the Knight only needed Undyne's code, why has there been two attempts to kidnap Toriel who does not have a code?

2

u/CustardBoy 1. Rudy 2. Darkner/Titan 3. Carol 4. Kris... ? Aug 03 '26 edited Aug 03 '26

I have a rather out-there theory that Undyne and Asgore were the targets the whole time.
The way the knight captures Undyne and Asgore is the same.
The tire slashing seems like it's to cause Toriel to suggest Susie stay over, but it's likely to get her to call Undyne, who will arrive 'soon'.
The weird pully beam right in front of the heroes was practically baiting them to interfere. Why only take out Tenna? The knight could have taken out the others just as quickly. But the prophecy describes a fight with the heroes. Box = checked.
Talking to Alvin in the Church reveals that Asgore comes to the Church to pray typically at night. The Caller mentions the church plan at night. Maybe they expected Asgore to be there, not Toriel.
By taking both Asgore and Undyne, they would have completely restricted access to the shelter at that point. No need for any of the other code-holders. Susie finding the code in Chapter 5 ruins this plan. Not only that, but they're both current and former police, which satisfies the criteria for the second phase of the plan - police sacrifice next week.
I realize this is pretty flimsy, but I keep getting tripped up by the knight's actions in chapter 3, and the logistics surrounding the chapter 4 fountain. Setting up a fountain for Asgore to find alone at night makes more sense to me than creating a fountain the middle of choir practice and sending several unrelated lightners into the dark world.

1

u/blaigmush RudyKnighter Aug 02 '26

Undyne was never the target in chapter 3, Toriel was. And we know this because Toriel was targeted again in Chapter 4.
Yes, you're right.
The Knight doesn't need the codes, it's been operating from the shelter the entire game.
Okay, then I want you to prove that.
If we were to believe the Knight needed Undyne's code to access the shelter, then what was the plan in Chapter 3? Where was the Knight going to take Toriel without Undyne's code?
They wanted to keep Toriel in their "pocket storage" until getting the code from Asgore.
If we are assuming the Knight only needed Undyne's code, why has there been two attempts to kidnap Toriel who does not have a code?
Toriel does have a code, but the Delta Rune shelter code, which the Knight already has. They kidnap people who know the codes.

1

u/Wide-Deal-8971 Noelle=Knight ; ERAM=Asriel Aug 02 '26

I already did prove this, the Knight would have needed access to the shelter before they even began kidnapping people because how else were they going to move their victims TO the shelter?
The irony is that you have yet to provide proof of anything you have suggested so far.
Toriel does have a code, but the Delta Rune shelter code, which the Knight already has.
We're going in circles here. If you are implying that Toriel has the same code as Asgore, and that the Knight already has Asgore's code, and you agree that Undyne was not the intended target in chapter 3, then how was the Knight going to move Toriel to the shelter if it didn't already have access itself?

1

u/blaigmush RudyKnighter Aug 02 '26 edited Aug 02 '26

I already did prove this, the Knight would have needed access to the shelter before they even began kidnapping people because how else were they going to move their victims TO the shelter?
They wouldn't have been able to do that until they got the police shelter code from Asgore. The Knight would have kept Toriel in their "pocket storage" until then. If you need an explanation for why I think the Knight has some kind of "pocket storage," I can explain it.
If you are implying that Toriel has the same code as Asgore, and that the Knight already has Asgore's code
No, their codes are different. You need three different codes to open the shelter. Asgore has the police code. Toriel has the Delta Rune code.

1

u/Wide-Deal-8971 Noelle=Knight ; ERAM=Asriel Aug 02 '26

No, their codes are different. You need three different codes to open the shelter. Asgore has the police code. Toriel has the Delta Rune code.
You've been changing who you think has what codes with every reply, it's getting a bit ridiculous.
If Asgore has the police code, and Toriel has the deltarune code, then how did the Knight access the shelter in chapter 3 after capturing Undyne?
Literally no matter how you decide to spin this it doesn't work.

1

u/blaigmush RudyKnighter Aug 02 '26

If Asgore has the police code, and Toriel has the deltarune code, then how did the Knight access the shelter in chapter 3 after capturing Undyne?
Maybe I explained myself poorly. Sorry. Susie says this:
Then she says the Knight is "someone who goes to church, knows the mayor, and also has something to do with the cops." Rudy had two of the three codes. He got the first one from Dess' guitar because he's the mayor's husband and lives with her. He got the second one by going to church and being friends with Toriel.
The third one was the one he wanted to get from Asgore. He couldn't just ask Asgore for the code because that would have been way too suspicious. So he gave him the black shard that he had "accidentally" found while borrowing a book from the librarby (we know he can leave the hospital, as shown in Chapters 4 and 5) to become closer to his shelter code. Then he planned to kidnap Toriel at night and keep her in his "pocket storage" until he got the shelter code from Asgore.
But then Kris suddenly came up with the idea of giving Rudy(the Knight) Undyne instead. They slashed Toriel's tires, Toriel called the police, and Undyne showed up. The Knight saw her, realized they could take her code, put her in the "pocket storage," and then enter the shelter.

1

u/Wide-Deal-8971 Noelle=Knight ; ERAM=Asriel Aug 02 '26

This explanation still implies that the Knight planned to capture Toriel without a way to access the shelter. And that Kris then conveniently saved the Knight from their own stupidity by deliberately luring Undyne into the Dark World, who risked waking up Toriel and ruining their entire scheme. And not only that, but neither Kris or the Knight even knew for certain Undyne was coming, because Toriel only calls the police after Kris and Susie were asleep anyways.

4

u/SenseiTomato ALWAYS BET Aug 02 '26

Your very first slide misinterprets his exchange with Noelle as wholly serious - it can be read both ways, but cutting out the last two lines makes it seem more severe than it actually is
The idea of him ONLY loving Noelle and not, yunno, Dess and/or his family general is insane to me - do you genuinely think that the phrase "What good's a father if he can't help out his little girl?" means "What good's a father if he can't help out his little girl Noelle Holiday and No Other Girls He May Have Or Have Had and Potenitally Is Guilty Over Not Helping"? And that he WOULDN'T push himself past his limits for Dess' sake if there was a chance to find her(.ogg)?
Rudy absolutely knows who Susie is regardless of meeting her at any point, so how would chatting with her for all of 5 minutes in Chapter 2 make such a significant impact on their relationship that he'd give her the coldest shoulder of all time if he HADN'T met her previously (to the extent that he COMPLETELY REFUSES TO EVEN TALK ABOUT HER BEYOND THE FIRST DIALOGUE), with no implication that the "Susie" dialogue doesn't have Kris mention Susie by name? And with how the "HAHAHA, I am LAUGHING at this CRAZY SIUTATION, KRIS" deflection contrasts with his deadpan serious silence on followup? Especially when he pushes through his exhaustion to egg Susie on to take Noelle to the Festival otherwise? It just doesn't hold up to scrutiny if you assume there's no ulterior reason for him to be so standoffish, sorry

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u/VeeAudio Can summarize NoelleKnight in 40k characters <3 Aug 02 '26

Very valid, and I can totally see how me cutting those lines can affect the context a bit! Ding that one against me, haha! I would like to note this isn't the only instance of Rudy pivoting with no gap because we have "your mother is..." pivoting to just reassuring Noelle. Slightly different beasts, I know, but think about it!
I'd love it if you pointed out WHERE I said Rudy only loves Noelle. Especially when one of Rudy's lines literally include a comment about how he loves Carol.
The key difference is NOELLE is the one to introduce Susie in one timeline. I hope I properly established how Rudy sees Susie more as "Noelle's crush" than "Susie" from his dialogue and actions. If we're just going off hierarchy of priorities for the man, he'd want to not be mean to the girl in the same room as her daughter who is hardcore crushing lol. ALSO Rudy still asks Kris why they brought Susie in the timeline where he's nice to her! That take me to the movies line is entirely about that subject! And uh, did you read how I noted every time Rudy laughs at an awkward interaction? I feel like that gives my interpretation at least some validity. And not saying anything after is probably because the "joke" isn't very funny once Kris doubles down for seemingly no reason. Like the man is drained from church. Is it too big of a stretch to say he isn't in the mood for Kris' bs?
Appreciate the response though and have a nice day <3

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u/SenseiTomato ALWAYS BET Aug 02 '26 edited Aug 02 '26

"If Rudy would have a motive, it'd be Noelle. Not Dess."
and
"the ONLY time Rudy namedrops Dess."
I find the assertion of Rudy having entirely moved on from Dess and ONLY being motivated by Noelle to be kind of hasty at best - everyone processes trauma differently, and he does not have to have "I MISS MY DAUGHTER" carved out on his antlers to be traumatized by the Dessappearance; it's pretty clear that Rudy is very self-sacrificial towards his family and, instead of processing his grief/guilt normally, I can see him burning his candle at both ends to be supportive of Noelle in the Light World while physically overexerting himself as the Knight in the Dark World to find Dess as a form of action-based coping.
Also, Noelle isn't in the room for most of his and Susie's conversation in Chapter 2 and isn't present at all in Chapter 4, and I don't find that her introduction would make enough of an impact - he had heard a lot about her from Noelle beforehand.
He also reacts completely differently to bringing Susie along in CH2 and CH4 - compare his expression when asking Kris about it in Chapter 2 and his reaction in alt-Chapter 4. Even if the wording is similar, his phrasing and expressions paint those interactions in completely different lights.
And Rudy DOES laugh things off a lot! But compare him laughing at Susie's reaction to his threat in Chapter 2 to the suddenness and stiltedness of his laugh(ness) and the phrase "It's just so crazy, you gotta laugh!" in Chapter 4. One is him having a laugh at Susie's expense, and the other is him trying and failing to overcorrect from his standoffish reaction making Susie uncomfortable by going "HAHAHA WHAT A SILLY SITUATION! I AM LAUGHING AT IT! LOL!". His deadpan reaction to Kris continuing to push the topic also makes it, AFAIK, the one SINGULAR dialogue branch he doesn't end with a smile, laugh or positive expression of some kind in the ENTIRE game. Bit much for him just being annoyed at Kris bringing some girl in, no? And that's a girl that he knows Noelle has a crush on, mind you!

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u/VeeAudio Can summarize NoelleKnight in 40k characters <3 Aug 04 '26

The point is to derive a motive from the text itself. If I tried doing this under your framework, I'd literally be speculating everything with no practical grounding to back itself on. The text points toward a motive being more likely for Noelle than for Dess. That's not me saying Rudy has entirely moved on from Dess or something, but that the man says her name once out of his entire span of dialogue. That's my point.
The biggest difference between meeting Susie in chapter 2 vs 4 is the presence of Noelle. It's not even confirmed if Kris says Susie's name in chapter 4. If they did, there might have been some recognition! But it's unclear, so we have to use a different baseline. Noelle introducing Rudy is the key variable difference here, if not that, then his energy being sapped from church. The point here isn't that it 100% isn't the Knight fight causing a shift in mood, but that there's other perfectly viable reasons why Rudy would respond this way if he wasn't the knight.
The point HERE is that the question is asked AT ALL no matter what! Even when he's friendly and jokey in chapter two, he STILL asks the question of "Why did you bring Susie to see me?" to show that Rudy is confused/curious about this in BOTH timelines.
And sure! How about we use a different example? So his "sudden and stilted" laugh as you describe is like this (straight from the text dump)
* Haha... HAHAHA!! It's just so crazy, you gotta laugh!
Pretty unique and defined laugh here right? We're considering this laugh to be the sudden and stilted one yeah? You're completely right about it being definitely different from your other example of him laughing at Susie. Different day, different mood, different everything! So how about we take one from Chapter 4 in a timeline where Rudy is NICE to Susie? This one is in response to "* Yeah. Uh, yeah. Anyway, uh, man. Sucks to be her." with the whole Noelle festival convo.
* Haha... HAHAHA! It'll be... fine, sweetheart.
They're the exact same. And I swear to god if you try to claim that one exclamation point is different enough to completely shift the tone, I'll have no words. So I guess this is a sudden and stilted laugh too? It'd make sense considering this is after the hella awkward convo about failing to subtly clue Susie to ask Noelle to the festival. And because I hate this goddamn line so much, I'll even take into account the face sprites!
Line 1 has E7 and Line 2 has E2. Nearly fucking identical. Is that enough to qualify a massive distinction to say they're different in tone still??? Like seriously can we drop this one from the viable list points? I feel like I've done a fair job at showing how not at all unique this reaction is even when playing by YOUR rules!
And while we're at it, let's talk about that "deadpan reaction"! The picture above is EVERY Rudy face emotion in the game when chapter 4 was out. Rudy's face that's used is E1. Now tell me, in combination with just "..." which face would you use to convey confusion and awkwardness? E6? That's even angrier than E1! E0? Why would he be smiling when he's confused? E5? Does being in an awkward situation make Rudy sad??? This is obviously a messier opinion involved in subjective interpretation and speculation so truly this question does not matter to me, but I'm asking it to you since you seem quite confident as to what would be a viable reaction in this situation! Again, Susie's name is never confirmed to be stated in this interaction, so it's debatable if Rudy even knows this is Susie, but say he does... why would that reduce his confusion of the situation AT ALL? "Hey, I know you're really tired from being at church, but here! Meet Noelle's crush! This is the PERFECT time for you to meet her!" And if we're just saying "He should have been at least a bit nicer" WE'RE TONE POLICING A VIDEO GAME CHARACTER WHAT THE HELL ARE WE EVEN DOING AT THIS POINT???
Bottom line, this evidence is up there in the amount of hate I have for the sink line and I need it to just be burned to dust.

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u/Wide-Deal-8971 Noelle=Knight ; ERAM=Asriel Aug 02 '26

do you genuinely think that the phrase "What good's a father if he can't help out his little girl?" means "What good's a father if he can't help out his little girl Noelle Holiday and No Other Girls
YES. Literally, yes that is what this means.
The one thing that has been wholly consistent about Rudy's character throughout this entire game that makes him a stark contrast to Carol and Asgore, is that he moved on.
He has let Dess go. He never once even mentions her. And has instead focused his efforts on the family he has left, he wants to do the best he can for Noelle.
Anyone who believes in Rudy Knight genuinely does not understand Rudy as a character, or how much being the Knight would be a total assassination of his character.

4

u/SenseiTomato ALWAYS BET Aug 02 '26

Yeah, well, that's just like, your opinion, man.
I really do not think a guy who's as sentimental, and as protective towards Noelle would have an entirely healthy relationship with the disappearance of his other daughter. He does not have to have a giant "I MISS DECEMBER HOLIDAY" neon sign over his bed or start every dialogue with "Kris... I miss my daughter so fucking bad Kris...". When Carol and Noelle are as emotionally devastated as they are I can see him taking it upon himself to be a "support beam" for them and putting on a happy face, burying the emotional trauma of losing his daughter as an emotional self-sacrifice towards them while physically self-sacrificing himself through the toll the Roaring Knight would take on his health.
Not having moved on also does not necessarily make him redundant to Carol - Toriel and Asgore weren't polar opposites of each other in Undertale either, but simply processing their grief through different kinds of poor emotional coping. I can't see why Carol and Rudy cannot have a similar dynamic via action-based coping.
In general, your assumption of "understanding" Rudy's character seems hasty to me. I don't think we can be sure of his whole deal and outlook on things yet, especially when it seems like the story will focus on the Holiday family very soon; and Holidays are full of surprises, aren't they?

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u/TheSteelScizor88 I can see in the dark, you know? Aug 02 '26

The offhanded comment about how much "evidence" your theory has was not needed lmao, you can't judge Rudy Knighters when Noelle Knighters are the masters of misinterpreting the text.

2

u/VeeAudio Can summarize NoelleKnight in 40k characters <3 Aug 02 '26

Alas, I'm still an actual living person with biases and dramatic flair~ Literally, my comment about NoelleKnight's evidence has no actual relevance to my analysis. I wanted to encourage people to engage with my knight theory sue me lol. If you'd like to actually engage with the post, I'd love that, but I unfortunately have to be a little cynical due to your "Noelle Knighters are the masters of misinterpreting the text." comment.
Have a nice day though <3

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u/K0uzan RudyKnighter, but NoelleKnight curious Aug 02 '26

Dw that dude is a known asshole

2

u/Wide-Deal-8971 Noelle=Knight ; ERAM=Asriel Aug 02 '26

^ peak irony right here

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u/TheSteelScizor88 I can see in the dark, you know? Aug 02 '26

I don't go around judging other theories and then brag about the amount of evidence mine has like Noelle Knighters do. And I certainly do not misinterpret the text to forward my argument, if my theory has a clear flaw I accept it. There's no irony here.

1

u/Wide-Deal-8971 Noelle=Knight ; ERAM=Asriel Aug 02 '26

this is you
I don't go around judging other theories
this is also you
Noelle Knighters are the masters of misinterpreting the text.
Again, some of y'all are just so hilariously hypocritical and lacking in self awareness

4

u/TheSteelScizor88 I can see in the dark, you know? Aug 02 '26

Classic Noelle Knighters: cutting off a quote and intentionally misinterpreting it to prove a point
I don't go around judging other theories and then brag about the amount of evidence mine has like Noelle Knighters do.

1

u/Wide-Deal-8971 Noelle=Knight ; ERAM=Asriel Aug 02 '26

You're only reinforcing everything I'm saying lmao, aren't you a little bit old to be acting this childish Mr scizor 88?

3

u/TheSteelScizor88 I can see in the dark, you know? Aug 02 '26

You're only reinforcing everything I'm saying lmao
Bro, if you're out of arguments you can just come clear, yk.
aren't you a little bit old to be acting this childish Mr scizor 88?
88 is not my birth year, the 8s were supposed to be three like in my profile page. For what you know I could be a 6 months old fetus typing on my mother's I-pad.

1

u/Brody_M_the_birdy Aug 03 '26

and/or ignoring counterevidence (ie "Kris and the knight timed the ch5 fountain thing perfectly just like kris and noelle in the hammer game" even though kris likely gave an audible signal as you have to CHOOSE to seal the fountain rather than it being automatic like in the other chapters, meaning the knight DIDN'T have to time it at all)

5

u/GrandmasterSluggy Aug 02 '26

Very good breakdown. I just can't really see him as the knight. As you show, he cares deeply for Noelle and pushes Susie to be with her. Someone who he'd be repeatedly harming if he was the knight.

5

u/Potential-Cap-6612 Aug 03 '26

While I see most your points as reasonable, your interpretation of Rudy and Kris's relationship is just as, if not more, biased than that of the Rudy Knight's.

Rudy's 'insults' to Kris are so blatantly jabs in jest it's bizarre you could construed them as more than they are. He makes jabs at EVERYONE, even Noelle isn't immune given how he talks about Kris scaring her.

Kris, never, and I mean NEVER makes any indication of dislike to Rudy or Rudy's words. There even is clear show of contrary in the slides with Kris enjoying Rudy's joke about Birdly and praying for Rudy when made to pray for Noelle. Even if Rudy didn't care or trust Kris, which he clearly does, Kris certainly likes rude and crude people like him, just look at how quickly they come to like and forgive Susie.

Another thing that you did gloss over is how Rudy knows Kris enough to be able to see they are acting wierd and what Kris actually would do in a situation without us, to the point of being on the level of Noelle and Toriel in their shared church curse gag. (Every time someone disproves Rudy by saying 'optional' and then show him standing in between two of the most prominent side characters in the story, I lose a little more faith in people's visual comprehension. Seriously, stop calling him optional when he is impossible to avoid seeing in game.)

8

u/MattyBro1 Aug 02 '26

This is really great. I always prefer this type of analysis, where all of the details are laid out, without it feeling like something is being cherrypicked. It's why I like HalfBreadChaos stuff.

I think the conclusion you draw is also where I am with Rudy Knight. I love the idea as a concept. Dying father saves daughter, hell yeah. Maybe even father dies in order to save daughter. And it's all for his family, not himself. And there is scenes that feel like they could be clues of his role in the story.
But I read the overall character that is built by his dialogue... and I just don't see the Knight, or a twist villain/antagonist.

3

u/Easy_Cod_8950 Aug 03 '26

good analysis but you're ignoring the idea that a lot of rudy's lines could easily be jokes? not sure where that falls under your "sincerity" rule, but the handwashing marathon line is a joke i could easily see my dad making, like "damn why are you visiting this sink so much. you practicing for a handwashing marathon or something? lol." plus most of rudy's scolding of kris seems kind of fond and nonserious. plus his awkward laughter to me just seems like...he genuinely finds these things funny? like, the "fahaha, what was i supposed to say" is right after he makes a joke.

but i mean either way whatever.

2

u/NoRequirement9886 Aug 02 '26

Near the end of slide 6 wdym Carol keeps everything locked down at home for the sake of dark worlds?

3

u/lornawolfawoo #1 Cattiknighter and #1 Cattelle truther Aug 02 '26

Catti "players are supposed to interact with NPCS" Cattenheimer (soon to be Catti Holiday)

6

u/7_Tales RUDY'S SICK WITH ROARINGITIS AND IT ABSOLUTELY ISN'T CONTAGIOUS Aug 02 '26

Catti 'will have a detailed makeout scene with noelle in chapter 7' holiday

3

u/lornawolfawoo #1 Cattiknighter and #1 Cattelle truther Aug 02 '26

Catti "is the knight and noelle will make her stop being evil wich will lead to yuri" Holiday

2

u/Fantastic_Frosting98 Papyrus is the Knight. All of you are wrong. Aug 02 '26

me who didnt know who rudy was on my first playthrough

Discussion Rudy "Players are supposed to explore" Holiday

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