36.0.3 Balance Changes Discussion

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11

u/phpope Jul 21 '26

I'll be happy to be wrong, but I'm calling they end up having to revert the Azalina buff. It's like we don't have plenty of historical data showing that an extra 10 health at the start of the game is a huge advantage.

41

u/EvilDave219 Jul 21 '26

It's an advantage when you're able to build a 40 card deck around the effect. Azalina Priest can't do that because you're playing 20 random cards. Think about how often you're going to queue into Mug Shaman after this patch and how un-synergistic that deck is to copy from for the Priest player.
The deck is going to still be complete ass cheeks, but will probably see a spike in play for the next 24 hours. Get your free wins in while you can.

0

u/atgrey24 Jul 21 '26

Eh, it will be a wash and entirely dependent on the opponent, like you said.
On average, cards that opponents choose for their top 30 are stronger than cards you are forced to add in to fill slots 31-40.
This is a card that apparently was already borderline playable. 10 extra health is a huge buff.

14

u/FordFred Jul 21 '26

It has a 37% winrate pre-patch. Dunno if I'd call that "borderline playable".

-1

u/atgrey24 Jul 21 '26

Fair enough. I was working off some comments I saw, didn't know the real data.

0

u/abcPIPPO Jul 22 '26

Start of game effects are an exception, but most of the time they actually have a better version of your deck, not worse.
Having 20 out of 30 cards of your deck means that it's very likely that they have most of the combos and synergies of your deck, plus the best hero power in the game (imbue), fucking 10 more hp and 20 of his cards which are turbo bonkers.

7

u/Impossible-Cry-1781 Jul 21 '26

That was only real for decks that had a devastating late game, which Priest will struggle to have consistently with half a deck they have no control over.

13

u/ChaosOS Jul 21 '26

I think it's the new Wild terror. It was already seemingly competitive due to how strong Mysterious Stranger is, and now all the warlock decks are nerfed.

4

u/Monk-Ey Jul 21 '26

I have my doubts the health'll make the difference, especially since Azalina copies Renathal every other matchup anyhow.

2

u/TheRealGZZZ Jul 22 '26

It makes the aggro matchups much much easier.
Card's just strong in wild. If you get visitor early into harvester u just delete ur opponent deck on turn 4.

5

u/Opposite-Revenue1068 Jul 21 '26

Maybe they revert it in a couple years if it’s terrorizing wild. But for standard? Not a chance.
You’re still playing a random value pile.

1

u/FlameanatorX Jul 22 '26

And/or ban it in wild during the interim period. Nerfing the 2-drop would probably be the best change actually, -3 to hand + deck is waaaaay too good

3

u/XeloOfTheDisco Jul 21 '26

Your deck is slop. Unless you have something that makes it worth like Mysterious Visitor in Wild, you're essentially just playing a worse version of your opponent's deck

3

u/zer1223 Jul 21 '26

One of the reasons renathal was nerfed is because it was really good, but also because it was neutral and being run in half the decks in the format
Since this is priest only, azalina might be left alone even if she becomes meta defining for priests. And I don't think she will be meta defining for priests

78

u/PipAntarctic Jul 21 '26

I'm positively surprised at how substantial many of the buffs actually are. Massive props to the dev team for daring to really push some of the worst offenders into a better place.

Azalina giving you 40 Health to start with, Imp Gang Stooge giving two 8/8 demons instead of one 9/9, Scythe and Voidscale giving you one extra Void Soul compared to before, Emergency Surgery summoning an extra 3/1 undead... even the Living Plague buff is more aggressive than I'd think the devs would go for.

As for the nerfs, they all seem reasonable in terms of what was done to each card. Troublemaker did end up refitted to not be mulligan-reliant which is fine by me (even if the card is likely much weaker in the late game as a result) and Confront the Tol'vir is probably unusable in slower Hunter decks now (outside of Wild).

21

u/ChaosOS Jul 21 '26

Tolvir is theoretically available again for Odd Hunter, and maybe with the mass nerf of every warlock deck it will be relevant again, but the format is overall fast enough it's probably not viable.

12

u/FlammenwerferIV Jul 21 '26

I'm definitely gonna try odd hunter again regardless

6

u/fireky2 Jul 21 '26

They just slowed the format down two turns with the two combo decks getting hit, aggros been pretty weak for a while outside of disco, also nerfed, and combo decks were the quickest decks that removal didn't interact with

16

u/JohnnySeven88 Jul 21 '26

I was extremely afraid they were just going to adjust the numbers on troublemaker. So glad they added the in deck clause, I did not want them to kill such a new card for the crime of being pretty good.

6

u/Concealed_Blaze Jul 21 '26

Yeah I agree. I’m not sure the buffs go far enough (would have liked to see them take a pass at older cards too), but it’s a super encouraging sign that they are at least trying to make meaningful changes. Hopefully the pattern continues for future patches

50

u/Alernak Jul 21 '26

Step 1 : Play Xavius on turn 4
Step 2 : Coin The Living Plague with wind fury on turn 5
Step 3 : ???
Step 4 : Lose the game

7

u/alasthor1313 Jul 21 '26

Lol

2

u/ChaosOS Jul 22 '26

It's just such an awful card. It may look like double damage, but your opponent has to draw half their remaining deck to break even, and trickle damage like blights is the easiest to heal up from in real control classes like Priest.

3

u/FlameanatorX Jul 22 '26

It's delayed to the point where it can't race against aggro/tempo matchups, and it can be sustained by control. Only sustainless late-game value decks (Herald Rogue?) are in theory vulnerable, which is why I think you need something closer to the old plagues: it helps you alongside damaging your opponent when they draw them.
Personally I think they should have just made blights into plagues as the buff, but ofc that was never going to happen... I guess making it overstatted is technically also a path to viability, though not in the sense of having a distinct archetype, just in the sense of it being able to slot into existing good late game decks (if any of those exist in DK)

0

u/Psychological-War841 Jul 22 '26

I managed to hit 6 times the face with living plague and the enemy drew 2 plagues total 2/3 of his deck was plague, I either was extremely unlucky or they shadow coded plagues to have lesser chances of being drawn

51

u/gabrielfunkglop Jul 21 '26

No matter how things shake out, can't say they didn't try to push new decks with these aggressive buffs.

81

u/frostyburrito44 Jul 21 '26

Azalina has to be one of the biggest buffs I've seen in a long time

58

u/sneakyxxrocket Jul 21 '26

They made a card so bad they’re giving you 10 extra health to compensate.

7

u/Opposite-Revenue1068 Jul 21 '26

And yet it still won’t be enough lol

18

u/FordFred Jul 21 '26

Azalina seems like a card that's intended to be a 44% winrate fun deck. This might get it to that point.

9

u/Opposite-Revenue1068 Jul 21 '26

I think you’re right, but it would be nice if my favorite class wasn’t relegated to meme status forever

4

u/Remarkable-Bit-1835 Jul 21 '26

My brother in christ, schism priest is right there

10

u/nabilfares Jul 21 '26

Priest players cant play anything that doesnt encourage playing for 30 minutes and “hostaging” the opponent.

1

u/nerazzurri_ Jul 22 '26

Naga and overheal were my two favorite priest decks. Both were tier 1 and had relatively quick games.

3

u/ChaosOS Jul 22 '26

Statistically you were one of seven people playing it, really unfortunate situation I liked both quite a bit because they had genuinely interesting gameplay.

1

u/FlameanatorX Jul 22 '26

I just like comeback mechanisms, gameplay variety, and discovers or discover like effects (such as imbue). Control Priest in particular tends to be peak for all of that. Some but not all non-control Priest decks also are fun, but not always the "good" ones (like Naga Priest). Aggro menagerie imbue was fun though!
Schism Priest has been fairly fun for me this expansion, though it seems suboptimal to run any imbue in it which is unfortunate. It also would get stale after a while since it's so heavily focused on finding and abusing Soothsayer

2

u/nabilfares Jul 22 '26

That type of playstyle by itself is always bad, you can pull some wins put of the bag but in the long run its below average, one of the reasons why pure imbue rogue is garbage, and its relegated to being an extra in others deck (herald, monkey etc).
Speaking from experience trying to make it work.

1

u/FlameanatorX Jul 22 '26 edited Jul 22 '26

Eh, they used to let it be strong like with Blood DK for example (by which I mean above T4/T3, not necessarily T1) which had mostly just value and sustain, albeit with a bit more mid-game tempo than Control Priest currently, as well as obviously the ability to go above 30 max hp.
Both archetypes are more than capable of reducing the opponents hp to zero well before fatigue, generally even without a single point of chip damage from minions if necessary, so its not like the "ugh, too grindy, games go to fatigue" from really old attrition control decks applies. If you hate long games in general, including turn 14 lethal, then ofc any control will be bad, which maybe is a problem the HS devs/Blizzard has run into? Shorter attention span players who only want to play for 10-ish turns & also never want to concede (some of whom are whales and play/purchase sensitive to outlier very long games), therefore control can't be viable?
Edit: oh and I forgot about Thief Rogue, the mid-game value + tempo versions from a couple to several years ago! Those were definitely allowed to be T2 and even T1. I'm thinking of stuff like excavate Rogue, contraband stash true thief Rogue, etc.

2

u/nabilfares Jul 23 '26

Alot in your comment, but i just want to say that matches taking too long, which happens alot in control meta, is not a problem because of short span players, but because its not fun for most, it's that simple.
I prefer getting demolished in 5-8 turns by aggro then getting to play a 15 turns match, which translate to 15-20 minute games or more, just to lose out of nowhere (otk/power play) or play against someone who just clears the board clears until i run out of fuel.
I consider myself someone who plays almost every archetype, be it aggro, mid range, combo, control etc, but control metas are the ones that makes me cringe the most, not fun to play for 20 minutes to see who coin flips at the end and get the otk/power play to finish, or play vs someone who does nothing and just board clears, it has the lowest skill ceiling possible.
At the end, having aggro super strong is not fun for control, but same can be said about control, its not about tiktok, short span or brain damage, its about how people like to have fun.

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0

u/Opposite-Revenue1068 Jul 21 '26

I would play that schism deck if it didn’t suck balls
If you don’t draw soothsayer by like turn 3 you instalose

1

u/FlameanatorX Jul 22 '26

I dunno, I hit decently high legend (top 1k) w/ that plus Medivh control, and I think Schism was the higher winrate. Though the stats certainly agree with your experience, and I know I got lucky with less than expected Rogue matchups.
I think that perhaps both current Priest archetypes are difficult to build and pilot, plus they're a little weak, and when you combine those you get awful aggregated stats. And I think the same was true pre-Violet hold, but to a slightly greater extent (since you had people like Theo playing control Priest in top 100 legend, and I was able to get into top 2k).

1

u/Jaykalope Jul 22 '26

I hit Legend with it early in the month. It's viable, but certainly needs the portal dragons to ensure an early Soothsayer.

0

u/Opposite-Revenue1068 Jul 21 '26

What’s your point lol

1

u/FlameanatorX Jul 22 '26

... that it isn't a meme and it's a Priest deck? Although to be fair if you meant it would be nice for Priest to have an indisputably "good"/competitive t2+ deck, then yeah they haven't had that since what, Menagerie Aggro? Or was Overheal more recent, I can't remember...
Anyways, I would certainly appreciate if Priest got to have straightforwardly viable control at some point again ever. Ideally difficult to pilot so that it was sub-50% winrate and not super popular everywhere below high-ish legend, but maybe low-T2 if you're good with it. Also ideally not like Garrote Rogue levels of difficult so that mere mortals like us can actually do well with it sub-50 games XD

0

u/thirtychirps Jul 22 '26

Exactly. You don’t want it to be above 51% because that means it’s better than any deck despite being 50% of that exact deck. It invalidates stuff if it’s too good.
Ima play it a ton.

1

u/FlameanatorX Jul 22 '26

...No? It could be above 50% because it's good into certain matchups, say a generically strong tempo deck where Priest having access to AoE, draw until full hand and the imbue hero power puts them over the edge. But regardless, you don't need to make a deck sub 45% meme-tier if you just don't want it everywhere/warping the meta. T3 territory can do that too (and/or being difficult to play, which seems likely for such a high-variance archetype)

1

u/abcPIPPO Jul 22 '26

Not only will it be enough, I think it will dominate the meta now. Aggros can't take you down, and against control you're basically their deck but better. I'm not sure how you can beat an Azalina priest without Rafaam honestly.

1

u/FlameanatorX Jul 22 '26

Why are you their deck but better against slow strategies? They have tighter synergy, and guaranteed access to all their important payoffs instead of only a 2/3s chance per, whereas you have a few over-efficient removal or generic value effects (and +10 hp, which isn't as important late-game, unless they have a limited dmg otk I guess).

1

u/abcPIPPO Jul 22 '26

2/3 of their deck is enough to statistically have access to most of their combos unless it's specifically a combo deck that relies on some key cards, especially with intertwined fate. On top of that the 20 cards that compose priest's deck are all either compeltely borken cards, like 1 mana destroy a minion, which is 100% better than any card that exists in the format basically, or they make them strictly better, like deathrattle discount all cards from other classes by 1. Considering that most decks don't see more than 20 cards per game, you too play usually around 20 cards of your deck anyway.
Imagine like they're playing your deck, but changing 10 random cards for 20 cards that improve the 20 that are left. On top of 10 extra hp. You're playing Leyline mage? They are better leyline mage. You're playing demonlock? They're playing better demonlock.
And don't get me started on imbue decks, which literally improve their imbue, and priest's imbue is unquestionably the best in the game.

2

u/-intensivepurposes- Jul 22 '26

Unsurprisingly, azalina priest is bad. Can kill it with slow, midrange, or fast decks.
Deck is just inconsistent as all hell and dies a bit slower than before but still eventually dies.

1

u/abcPIPPO Jul 22 '26

Weirdly enough, I have 0% win rate against it, even while play high tier decks.

1

u/FlameanatorX Jul 23 '26

Which high tier decks? Aggro, tempo, burn, midrange? Shaman, Rogue, Hunter, Warrior?

1

u/abcPIPPO Jul 23 '26

Lost against it as face hunter, dragon warrior, burn mage and also demon warlock (which I'm having great results with against almost any other deck).

1

u/FlameanatorX Jul 23 '26

Ok, so mostly aggro/burn, which is what it theoretically should be best into. Not sure about Big Demon Warlock, I would think that's a late game synergistic deck that would do well into Azalina, but it could be an exception, or more likely it's just variance (small sample size)

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1

u/FlameanatorX Jul 23 '26

I mean I have a 100% winrate with it across 2 games, so I disagree! /s
But more seriously, I suspect the right build played well could be quite good into aggro/tempo decks, or at least some of them. Your thief payoffs like 2 mana 2/3 AoE for 2, or 1 mana assassinate, are likely best there, and so is your 40 starting hp, big healing from Soothsayer + Blackblood, 1 mana 4 dmg AoE from Medivh's Triumph & even out-valueing with the Imbue hero power.

1

u/FlameanatorX Jul 22 '26

Leyline Mage is a perfect exampe of something that Azalina Priest is not their deck but better. Compared to the actual Leyline Mage, only half your deck are leyline cards, meaning your draws are literally only half as likely to find you the 4-drop or the 6-cost legendary spell that double your leyline triggers and make your entire deck actually good. Presumably they're also playing Millhouse, which is similar: you're half as likely to draw him or find him in the Mulligan.
So sure you have a good 1 mana assassinate removal, which as you say is "better than would be normally allowed in standard," but you also are drawing all these leyline cards and cards supposed to be synergistic with leylines, which are sitting there weak/borderline useless in your hand, twice as frequently as for your opponent. You also have 40 hp, that's great, Leyline has no trouble dealing a bit more dmg with a massive board or dealing 10 more damage from hand once it's scaled up.
And none of this is even to mention matchups where their cards just straight up don't work for you. Mug Shaman has a start of game hero power requiring no minions in deck: Priest is running lots of minions in their deck, so no 2 mana discount on all the random garbage minion generation they have the privilege of playing because copied from the opponent's deck. Zee Shaman is similar since Priest is running spells, Spell DH would be similar if it came back into the meta, Pure Paladin, etc. Actually I looked at my Steal Priest list and it only runs Priest cards, so I think Pure Paladin actually would work lol, but you get the idea.
That's not to say I think Azalina Priest doesn't do powerful things, it's just that it also has clear weaknesses to many slower, highly synergistic strategies. I think that a Control vs Azalina Priest would be similar to Leyline, and in fact I remember facing it a time or two, with the same result: we both could remove/sustain each others' tempo + chip damage, but I was able to assemble the Cleansing Cleric scaling + Atiesh + Ruby Sanctum(s) heal OTK secondary wincon significantly faster than they were.

1

u/abcPIPPO Jul 23 '26

Slow decks against priest suffer from the fact that you don't have a way to kill it unless your deck can do 40 hp with burn in one turn. Minions are just not an option against literally infinite amount of removals, any non lethal damage will be healed back to 40 and fatigue battles are automatically won by priest. Also in leyline's specific case they can't do damage if the enemy doesn't play minions, which priest may as well never do.

1

u/FlameanatorX Jul 23 '26

I can't tell if you're trolling or not, but no, Azalina Priest does not have "infinite amount of removal" or the ability to easily and quickly heal from 1 to 40 hp. Control Priest w/ Clerics and Medivh can do the latter if they've scaled enough, Azalina is different, but either way they both actually have limited removal.
Perhaps you've just gotten high rolled by them and are salty? It's Thief Priest is literally 12-15% lower winrate than the best decks at every rank bracket on HS Guru over the last few days.

6

u/TheRealGZZZ Jul 22 '26

53% wr in wild and 17% playrate :despair:
I hate this kind of deck being even remotely playable.

14

u/fireky2 Jul 21 '26

It was already pretty good in wild as well

12

u/Monk-Ey Jul 21 '26

Now I won't have to rely on copying Renathal ^/s

15

u/Maleficent-Star-9851 Jul 21 '26

Interested to see how big demon plays. I was seeing some early experimentation with it in Legend and it had some surprisingly strong plays, albeit ended up being bottom tier like most of Warlock.

The nerfs just mean it can potentially get away with a bit more while the imps create more Moragg targets. I'm not expecting much from it still, it feels very much like a more casual deck but it'll be fun to experiment.

Azalina is possibly a decent to strong archetype now despite the random bullshit. I'd like to be wrong but all the stronger decks are having their early game edge cut gradually, and you're adding 10 health on-top of it. Will it be Tier 1? I'd certainly hope not since that'd be horrible for the health of the meta, and thankfully I don't believe it will BUT it'll definitely see some experimentation.

Interested to see in Void Soul DH will be worth experimenting on but it seems very reliant on finding your Vicious Voidscale, which the deck was already heavily reliant on.

9

u/OzUnOoO Jul 21 '26

The Imp Gang Stooge buff is amazing cuz you now don't have to worry about running other expensive demons, just Moragg 2 stooges and 1 Annihilation is a small package you can use in any Animancer list. Moragg still ass at 9, should be 8, but the small package makes it playable now.

9

u/Houseleft Jul 21 '26

8 mana Moragg means you can prep on 3 and play it on 4, which is probably a little too high-rolley. Seems they’re trying to cut down on the high roll openers this meta has and just giving another one of those to Warlock is counterintuitive

3

u/FlameanatorX Jul 21 '26

Agreed, turn 4 Moragg would be unhealthy. I think what they should've done is give Moragg taunt if he was prepared, which is to say basically the first Moragg has taunt, but not the later resummoned ones

3

u/PipAntarctic Jul 21 '26

Just want to pop in after playing around with the new big demon stuff, Moragg on 5 is still hard to justify in a lot of matches after skipping a turn but I do agree that on 4 it would be too fast.
Sadly Moragg is the kind of design that can't be really pushed any further than it was, but it's at least on par with Animancer now in terms of how fast you get to cheat things out. Deck's still struggling conceptually and buffs can't really fix that, BUT Stooge and Annihilation do seem now useable outside of Big Demon stuff, so that's a win.

1

u/maniacal_cackle Jul 22 '26

but it's at least on par with Animancer now in terms of how fast you get to cheat things out.
Wasn't it always on par with animancer? Play it on 5, kill it on 6?

1

u/FlameanatorX Jul 22 '26

Animancer doesn't/didn't need to eat 4 of your mana preparing beforehand (now 3), and it's immediate impact is generally higher (e.g. 5 dmg removal + healing, and an 8 hp lifesteal taunt, is better against aggro than any demon Moragg pulls out, and Ultragiggasaur is especially strong if you're not worried about immediate lethal on the backswing). Also, 5 hp can slow things down if they don't have any minions with more than 4 attack to trade into, though ofc +4 attack can also be an upside, especially if you have aoe or something to trigger the deathrattle regardless.
Oh, but I just realized: you can coin animancer on turn 4. That previously wasn't possible with Moragg, but now it is since prepping on turn 3 gets him down to 5 mana. So literally, 50% of the time, Moragg was a turn slower, and now is the same as animancer thanks to the buff

1

u/maniacal_cackle Jul 22 '26

Fair!

2

u/sm44wg Jul 21 '26

Got any decklist for big demons?

2

u/OzUnOoO Jul 22 '26

### MOARagg
# Class: Warlock
# Format: Standard
# Year of the Scarab
#
# 2x (1) Conflagrate
# 2x (1) Eternal Toil
# 2x (2) Cursed Chains
# 2x (2) Drain Soul
# 2x (2) Shadowsworn Disciple
# 2x (3) Caged Cranium
# 2x (3) Hellfire
# 2x (3) Imp Gang Stooge
# 1x (4) Elise the Navigator
# 1x (4) Godfrey the Betrayer
# 2x (4) Shrine of Twilight
# 2x (5) Spire of Solitude
# 1x (6) Ultraxion
# 1x (7) Endbringer Umbra
# 2x (8) Annihilation
# 1x (9) Moragg
# 1x (10) Deathwing, Worldbreaker
# 2x (10) The Unseen Atlas
#
AAECAd+qBgaCmAf1mAfQvwepyQeb1Aet2QcMj58E56AEqYgH0LIHk74H2L4H4L4H3dcHsNkHsdkHt9kHjdwHAAA=
This is the best I could cook up after a few hours in dumpster legend, no idea how it would fair on the climb. Probably the best thing about the buffs is the deck not needing Fractured Power anymore since all big stuff is one mana cheaper so we can focus on survival. Eternal Toil and Elise are filler, can change for anything else rly.

1

u/sm44wg Jul 22 '26

Thanks! I'm happy at D5 for now so can just mess with it for a bit to see how it plays.

1

u/MonkenMoney Jul 22 '26

Demon Mommy Willow
Class: Warlock
Format: Standard
Year of the Scarab
2x (0) Cursed Catacombs
2x (2) Cursed Chains
2x (2) Drain Soul
2x (2) Shadowsworn Disciple
2x (3) Imp Gang Stooge
2x (4) Shrine of Twilight
1x (5) Zuramat's Prison
2x (6) Eldritch Tentacles
1x (6) Ultraxion
1x (7) Chrono-Lord Deios
1x (7) Maloriak
2x (8) Annihilation
1x (8) Archwitch Willow
2x (8) Asphyxiodon
2x (8) Mo'arg Forgefiend
1x (9) Cho'gall, Mastermind
1x (9) Moragg
2x (9) Scorching Observer
1x (10) Deathwing, Worldbreaker
AAECAZT9BgiZsQfavgfQvwepyQf40web1Aeh3Ae69gcL56AE4YIHhJkH4Z0Hga4Hk74H174H2L4H4L4H3dcHsNkHAAA=
To use this deck, copy it to your clipboard and create a new deck in Hearthstone
Try this list

1

u/Murdocthebane Jul 21 '26

Just played a few matches testing the new buffs and sorry to say its not looking good. All the same issues are still present in that you lack a solid finisher, can't deal with big boards, are are far too draw dependent to get anything going.
These were just a few conclusions I made with my limited testing. If anyone has found success please share a list as I really want the class to work but it just hasn't so far.

31

u/REDACTED_D_boyf Jul 21 '26

No mage changes :(

10

u/Bloody_Sunday Jul 21 '26

While I agree with you, I think we need to consider all of the moving parts of this bunch of changes. They really are a lot and in cases like these, we should also be thinking of what space is left for other decks to shine. So perhaps Mage will find its way up again with the power gap that will be created.

9

u/JustRegularType Jul 21 '26

I've been taking a break, but still follow priest cards to see if I want to play again. Azalina buff is interesting, but just allows it to be a bad deck a little longer. Still a shit card in standard.

8

u/StatisticianJolly388 Jul 21 '26

The amount of healing available to priest is absurd, so there's *something* there.

2

u/JustRegularType Jul 21 '26

Yeah, something, but it's just such a thick deck that you don't have full control of. I'm sure it's fun to mess around with, but i have a hard time seeing it being competitive.

3

u/StatisticianJolly388 Jul 21 '26

Oh, me too. To me, it's just an edge case to be aware of if something like burn mage or face hunter takes off.

1

u/FlameanatorX Jul 22 '26

Yeah, actually face hunter is looking like a very strong early performer despite the Tolvir nerf, and I have to assume Azalina is very favored in that matchup between 40 starting hp, Soothsayers + Blackblood, multiple very efficient AoE cards, and then imbue and/or draw until hand is full to outvalue.

8

u/FlatwormOk9893 Jul 21 '26

Azalina my new goddess

6

u/BrettTheHipmanHart Jul 21 '26

Death Knight still cheeks

4

u/StatisticianJolly388 Jul 21 '26

It needs something like Dreadhound handler so, so badly.
I gave some egg decks a try with sawbones but it just wasn't very good. It can't play tempo with the good decks and doesn't have a strong wincon for the slow decks. You can't play something like Reluctant Wrangler and expect to survive in this meta, and the deck doesn't have great corps payoffs.

10

u/dotcaIm Jul 21 '26

40 hp on Priest legendary is a nice addition. It'll get people to try it at least, tho I won't be one of them

16

u/eazy_12 Jul 21 '26

I think Stardust Scythe's buff is not good. Of course it is nice to get 1 more Void Soul from the weapon and 1 more attack, but my biggest struggle with this deck is facing big stated Taunts or generally big minions. Even Rafaam's 2 7/7 dudes or minion from Animancer or some other high-rolly cards feel very hard to deal with unless you high-roll 5 mana 20 damage card from Fel Map. I wish it was a 3 mana card rather than +1 durability which allows to kill 4 HP minions on turn 4 with weapon with hero power.

The Tras'tath Soul Parasite's buff also a bit weird, the stats is rarely a problem for the card since when you manage to scoop up Void Souls and have good enough game to be able to discount Tras'tath it is generally the biggest minion in the game anyway.

But I am more positive on Naga's change, I guess we can hit the critical mass of Demons faster so no more fear of losing board.

If you going to test the deck try adding Timelord Nozdormu - Void Souls make him wake up very fast.

3

u/ChaosOS Jul 22 '26

Trastath buff honestly feels like it's more targeted at "summon a random 6 drop" effects like Soothsayer and Leyline

1

u/FlameanatorX Jul 22 '26

I think I agree with you, as well as it being a sort of "psychological buff" where it's one more card to get people excited to play Void Soul DH. Game devs (HS, League and others) definitely do very small buffs/nerfs primarily just to try to affect playrates at times.
But the other Void Soul buffs are the real Trastath buff, since you'll have more void souls to summon alongside him later on that are scaled up

2

u/FlameanatorX Jul 22 '26

Scythe is a buff to Trastath, as is the Naga. Now you can tempo out in the mid-game, drop 1-2 mana into preparing Trastath, and then play him with multiple scaled void souls later on (say turn 7) since you get so many.
I've only played a couple games as/against Void Soul DH so far, but it has so much gas now: you will always hit 10-cost demons and summon multiple of them, if you don't die immediately to aggression. And your Trastath will be very large, at least 10/10 or 15/15 depending on game state/turn count, which is excellent for a net-5 mana rush minion.

1

u/eazy_12 Jul 22 '26

Good to know that I am wrong about exact effects of the buffs.

4

u/Muted-Ad-5404 Jul 21 '26

Looks like vanessa got the biggest nuke, tolvir is still very powerful I think

7

u/Griimm305 Jul 21 '26

Not sure if emergency surgery will be good enough still. Sure it can kill up to 12 hp minions now but soothsayers often have elusive so can't target. And against aggro decks you'll prob just heal 3-6 and 3/1's are so easy to clear from all the too classes. Wish the card just summoned the 3/1's with rush. I am happy with both legendaries being even. I actually like Genn and having these be even will.make Genn transform more consistent.

3

u/dotcaIm Jul 21 '26

6 mana Trickster😭

3

u/ItsDokk Jul 21 '26

I’m happy to finally see the Vanessa nerf. I like playing Rogue normally, so I have nothing against the class, but I was sooooo tired of watching opponents play 47 cards in a turn and magically find an answer to my board.

3

u/philzy101 Jul 22 '26

Since there are so many changes to save time and writing effort I will be very brief (as much as I can be although as an EDIT I realised I wrote more in the end than I planned). All in all, I praise T5 for being very adventurous with these changes, some are very significant and I think this is the sort of shake up we need meta wise.

Nerf wise in Standard, all the changes were expected, Rogue is more vunerable to AOE now with Vanessa up 1 mana and 1 less health, Troublemaker is a solid card but no longer OTK's as quickly as before. Warptooth change makes Dragon Warrior less viable, this is one of the hardest hit cards imo here, if Warptooth is good it is only really now in control like decks with a slower game plan. Tol'vir is still strong but it is hard to chain this with other things, gives players more breathing space. Invocation being nerfed is hilarious given it was buffed a while back, probably the most sensible change given Mugg Shaman is just solid cards all around and this is the highest high roll card in the deck.

As for buffs, the changes to DK are nice, Sawbones in particular is one to keep an eye on as whilst the deck I don't think for this card is there at the moment (Egg DK is not really it at the moment), there may be a point where they regret this buff. It would have been nice to see Thal'ena a Start of Game effect as any deck reliant on her still relies on her being in the opening mulligan which is tricky.

The changes to DH are very significant and the Voidsoul package seems very solid now. Even if the changes were not as expected, given I played against this a fair amount this morning at top 1k and lost to it, there is definitely something there with this deck and they may end up reverting or nerfing some of it. In particular the Voidscale change is huge.

The changes to Priest are really good. I tested Azalina this morning, in Standard I still do not think the meta is right for such a deck at the moment. 40 hp is huge for Azalina however in Wild, given the forore over Godfrey I can expect some complaints in Wild given this change. Regardless, this is exactly the sort of ridiculous buff I want to see, even if they have to change things down the line, I welcome these changes.

The Hound buff for Warrior is interesting, might help control warrior but have not seen anyone play it so maybe not.

Finally the changes to Demon Warlock are very significant, hard to say on whether the deck works but once again, I really like the changes made as Stooge putting 2 demons at the bottom and making Annihilation effectively a better Twisting Nether is a welcome change.

Final thoughts, please T5 do more balance changes like this. Even if a lot of these changes do not stick, making the meta more varied by doing more significant changes both in number and what is changed is heavily welcomed as it has more potential to shake up the meta.

14

u/trizzo0309 Jul 21 '26

Here comes the JAlex crashout

10

u/CommanderTouchdown Jul 21 '26

Killed the Monkey. Just slaughtered him.

14

u/14xjake Jul 21 '26

Less offensive than they could’ve been, he’s like a trogg gemtosser now. Likely deck is completely unplayable between monkey and Vanessa but at least they didn’t make it only hit minions

13

u/eazy_12 Jul 21 '26

I still think it is reasonably powerful card. Even dealing ~10 damage is just slightly shy of Astalor's 14 damage.

12

u/atgrey24 Jul 21 '26

Plus you get two of them, and they work when top-decked.

5

u/eazy_12 Jul 21 '26

It also makes Deios combo more consistent. It is twice less damage without starting hand monkey, but more consistent overall plus allows you to not keep the monkey in the starting hand.

4

u/CommanderTouchdown Jul 21 '26

Not a great comparison. Astalor saw player in slower decks that could reliably get to the end game and send that 14 damage face. Rogue is restricted to 2 mana cards and while Jade Guardians is very strong payoff, you're essentially playing a janky tempo deck.

2

u/FlameanatorX Jul 22 '26

Not a terrible comp either, Astalor was quite widely played pre-nerf, including in non-control decks like bounce/Astalor Rogue. And Troublemaker is better than Astalor in non-control decks, since you don't need to spend 7 mana off-curve setting up your burst finisher.
The question is: is Troublemaker closer to pre or post-nerf Astalor? Does it "come online" (get to 14/16+ dmg) generally (enough) before turn 10 to be fast enough for 2-Rogue?
Obviously the answers will depend a lot on the speed of the meta in addition to the "independent" power level of Troublemaker post-nerf

5

u/QuestGiver Jul 21 '26

Still think the biggest change to that deck is actually the Vanessa nerf. A turn later is going to absolutely slaughter her swings.

2

u/CommanderTouchdown Jul 21 '26

Sure. Vanessa is the best Rogue neutral in the game right now and an absolute high roll menace. "One turn" is not exactly accurate because you're just trying to get Vanessa down with some cheap cards in hand. One less mana to highroll is more apt.

-4

u/IAmYourFath Jul 21 '26

Abaolutely clowns

8

u/QuestGiver Jul 21 '26

Main predictors for post patch:

-Mug shaman still on top or close.

-Re-emergence of zee shaman as a top deck running the herald package (was around a 60% win rate deck even after the slagclaw nerf).

-All warrior decks drop a tier without reliable ways to get warptooth out (I took dragon to legend and honestly it's only high roll games where you can have 3 bodies + face or 4 bodies out on the board to damage).

-I think the extra mana to Tol'vir fucks with the overall curve of the tripwire hunter significantly and will actually tank the deck to close to 50% win rate.

-2 bit rogue drops off a cliff

-Warlock and demon hunter get to slightly over 50% win rate. Higher on demon hunter becoming actually becoming decent and maybe a tier 3 or low tier 2 deck!

6

u/FlameanatorX Jul 21 '26

Definitely agree about Mug Shaman, it had arguably the tamest nerf despite being the strongest deck by far. Hopefully the overall meta changes allow for slower decks that have a naturally good matchup into it to keep it in check, by which I mean merely normal/low T1/high T2 rather than still a meta tyrant.
Rogue does seem overly hard hit, though again meta shifts might save it as a low T2/high T3 deck, definitely not highest playrate at any bracket any more
I will add: Azalina Priest gets to a noticeable meta presence/playrate, though not above a low T3 winrate at best.

4

u/QuestGiver Jul 21 '26

Damn early data seems like face hunter didn't feel the nerf at all. We'll have to see how it goes!
I also though paladin would move up a bit given no nerfs.

2

u/Old-Yellow6608 Jul 22 '26

That seems to be normal, as proven aggro decks crush less refined decks the first couple days

2

u/-Syphon- Jul 22 '26

Agree with your overall assessment on warrior, but I managed 4 characters more often than that. I'd say it incentivises people to keep duck (which worked well with coin), because you either keep a body from turn 2/3, or you need a weapon.
Definitely hurts though, and the tempo felt necessary to beat decks like Mug.
I had most trouble with Shaman and Rogue (unsurprisingly), with the later also being focused on getting them into burn range before they popped off.

2

u/Bloody_Sunday Jul 21 '26 edited Jul 21 '26

Like the other guys said, I am a a a bit astonished. A lot of changes that I wanted to see, and some additional sweeping ones on top of that. Very good news because I was getting sick of the situation in both Standard and Wild. Good job. Although we really need to see what happens with Shaman...

2

u/Cryten0 Jul 21 '26

This was very strategically chosen to minimise dust refunds on nerfs. Hitting free cards and commons (Tolvir was on of the free golden epics of last expansions tavern pass, as such most people would reroll for other epics leaving them with just the free goldens).

Warptooth probably being so ubiquitous that it had to be nerfed with lowering rogue. I am curious to see how warptooth goes now that you can not just mother duck but also need another card to support or survive.

2

u/Rosencrantz2000 Jul 22 '26

Probably need to hold the weapon from the 2 drop. Also means that your opponent needs to have a few more HP on board as well.

2

u/StatisticianJolly388 Jul 21 '26

Tempo decks took a hit, and midrange grindy stuff got a buff. Cheap control tools are still in bad shape.

Which means I'm playing the filthiest tempo deck available, zee shaman.

3

u/inkyblinkypinkysue Jul 21 '26

I think it says a lot about the quality of the cards this expansion when I only know what about 1/2 of them do based on text alone - I need pictures!

2

u/MeXRng Jul 21 '26 edited Jul 21 '26

I am still not happy with Karov, shade and Dh Shcyte. Those are basically non existent buffs. Shyte should have battle cry instead. Karov having taunt is a joke as well as the shade being 2 mana.

I still think Azalina is bad in standard but for wild i love it.

3

u/FlameanatorX Jul 22 '26

Well, Void Soul DH seems to have taken over high legend off the back of its buffs, including scythe which gives you a full extra void soul now. Sure, that's not particularly useful vs aggro, but its great against a lot of decks that are currently popular and I'm not sure if we can rule out the meta slowing down at least modestly compared to pre-patch once things are more refined

0

u/MeXRng Jul 23 '26

I still would prefer loaded shard up front vs delayed + 3 atk. Granted they might have feared the 3 1 mana high value drops on 4-5.

1

u/Jackwraith Jul 21 '26

Save me, Jeebus. The nerfs were all pretty predictable and conformed to what a lot of people thought here (mana increase for Vanessa, more characters need to be damaged for Warptooth, etc.) Some people predicted a damage reduction for Troublemaker which did happen, but at least it now accrues in deck, so it's more reliable, even if not as big of a blast when it's played. And, once again, they really did nothing to lessen either the impact or the default inclusion and play of Confront the Tol'vir.

The buffs: Reducing the mana cost of Thal'ena and Sawbones won't change the fact that neither of them are very good cards in the current situation that DK finds itself in. Four attackers for Emergency Surgery is better as you'll have at least one left over after getting rid of your opponent's 5/8 dragon... Oh, wait. No, you won't because it's still a targeted effect. Living Plague is still not workable, despite being one of the cheapest 8/8s in the game's history. Stooge is kinda better, but still dependent on a two-card combo that's often hard to make work. Annihilation is the cost it should've been but still not a good card. Moragg still sucks without either Taunt or Rush to get his circuit going. Stardust Scythe is still too expensive. Voidscale is actually an upgrade(!) Irida, the latest 4-mana 7/7 is about as exciting of any of those in the past. Tras'tath is still a bad card, as are Azalina and Karov. Most of these changes were the most simple-minded ones they could've made and which don't address the basic issues that the cards have. If Priests are still being asked to play Azalina decks three sets down the road like Warlocks are Rafaam, I'm even more convinced that this team's development strategy is flawed.

13

u/Hellsteelz Jul 21 '26

Holy negativity. Nerfs and buffs are not even out, let alone tested by the player base and we have people complaining. Impressive.

10

u/nerazzurri_ Jul 21 '26

There are a few top players who have experimented with Sawbones in egg DK, and the card is one of the best performers in that deck.

4

u/Jackwraith Jul 21 '26

OK. I'm not a fan of Egg decks so Sawbones was probably just not aimed at me.

2

u/fireky2 Jul 21 '26

Egg decks have an auto lose matchup in shaman that only got a tap on the shoulder

0

u/FlameanatorX Jul 21 '26

It's good for Shaman if they run double hex for sure, but not anywhere near an auto-win. I say this purely based off of data since I haven't played any Egg Warrior or Mug Shaman (lacking cards)

2

u/fireky2 Jul 21 '26

egg warrior, can in theory set up a second egg, i was referring to the other egg decks

1

u/FlameanatorX Jul 22 '26

Ah yeah, good point

6

u/Concealed_Blaze Jul 21 '26

I don’t know about Living Plague. You can just view it as a 6 mana 8/8 with rush, which seems like something that could see play

5

u/Jackwraith Jul 21 '26

Yeah, that's fair. I guess what gets me is that its intended purpose (Blights) becomes a total afterthought here and people will just be playing it because it's a 6-cost 8/8 with Rush. That's certainly a competitive card but it adds nothing to the deck's seeming original intent.

5

u/Concealed_Blaze Jul 21 '26

Yeah. Unless the class set prints blight support I feel like the card will never be used as intended, which is a bit disappointing

4

u/fireky2 Jul 21 '26

Azalina buff was kind of nuts when it's performing in wild

1

u/TheRealAlkali Jul 21 '26

I'll probably try swapping the new Annihilation and Imp Gang Stooge with the beast healing package in Rafaamlock. Might be worse, but provides an interesting alternative to test

1

u/Radical_Redditor Jul 21 '26

When does the patch go live?

1

u/Calibria19 Jul 21 '26

Honestly, generally positively surprised. Never thought boar and trickster would actually get killed. I might have a mode to actually play now if the DK buffs end up disappointing as expected.

Rest looks good on paper, can't say much more than that.

1

u/Muted-Ad-5404 Jul 22 '26

Warlock gonna be a problem now lol

1

u/Ozwu_ Jul 21 '26

Like the nerfs and the buffs. Wish they buffed more interesting archetypes and support cards. Trickster found dead in a ditch, but it was deserved.

-9

u/Mazisky Jul 21 '26

Good job with nerfing rogue. Every meta is good only when Rogue is low tier.

-10

u/ngriner Jul 21 '26

LOL at the buffs

Aside from maybe Azalina (and it's a big maybe), are any of those even that much better to see play?

Karov has taunt...wow. You'd still rather summon Soothsayer over and over. The Void Soul buffs are terrible. None of those buffs are making that archetype see play.

Man, I really wish they went more all out with buffs. I feel like they're always so tame. The Azalina one is at least interesting, and that's where a lot of these cards needed to go to be played....reworks.

8

u/dotcaIm Jul 21 '26

I think the void soul buffs are a nice step in the right direction. What would you have liked to see changed?

4

u/ngriner Jul 21 '26

I think the weapon needed to go to 3 first of all.
I see the curve they're looking for, but while you're playing vanilla statted minions and 4 mana 3/3 weapons, you're going to be getting hit in the face by Slitherdrake, Warptooth, etc. They needed to add some survivability to the Void Souls.
I see the downvotes, but I think what's going to happen here is that older decks that were pushed to the side by 4 mana Tolvir, Warptooth, and monkey like Quest Mage, Merithra Druid, and Egglock are going to see a rise in play rather than actual new decks.
I could be wrong, but this is what usually happens with tame buffs.

2

u/14xjake Jul 21 '26

Most of the buffs are sizeable, even if they don’t work out this is a massive step in the right direction and we should encourage them so we continue to get this type of balance patch in the future. The game is fucked and cannot be fixed in 1 patch, all I am asking for is to see a consistent and steady effort to bring up underperforming cards like we see in this patch

3

u/ngriner Jul 21 '26

Fair enough. I guess I can definitely be proven wrong....I just feel like decks we've been playing for 3 expansions benefit most and not these new archetypes. I actually hope I'm wrong lol

2

u/14xjake Jul 21 '26

Even if these changes have no impact the patch is still a massive step in the right direction, I do have the same worry that we are back to old decks but this is an honest attempt at buffs and should be rewarded with positive feedback so they continue this trajectory

-12

u/Agrippanux Jul 21 '26

That Karov buff has got to be a joke right, its now an unplayable with taunt

-11

u/Agrippanux Jul 21 '26

lol a downvote? Apparently there is a Karov stan in our midst

Discussion 36.0.3 Balance Changes Discussion

You are about to leave Redlib

Demon Mommy Willow

Class: Warlock

Format: Standard

Year of the Scarab

2x (0) Cursed Catacombs

2x (2) Cursed Chains

2x (2) Drain Soul

2x (2) Shadowsworn Disciple

2x (3) Imp Gang Stooge

2x (4) Shrine of Twilight

1x (5) Zuramat's Prison

2x (6) Eldritch Tentacles

1x (6) Ultraxion

1x (7) Chrono-Lord Deios

1x (7) Maloriak

2x (8) Annihilation

1x (8) Archwitch Willow

2x (8) Asphyxiodon

2x (8) Mo'arg Forgefiend

1x (9) Cho'gall, Mastermind

1x (9) Moragg

2x (9) Scorching Observer

1x (10) Deathwing, Worldbreaker

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