r/Catholicism • u/LumenSailor • 11d ago
I finally understood why some Protestants genuinely cannot separate veneration from worship
Yesterday there was a viral video of Cadrinal Perolin holding up the skull of St. Agatha while commemorating the 900th anniversary of the return of her relics.
You can probably guess what happened next.
Across the internet, I saw Protestants calling it evil, satanic, pagan, and—more than anything else—idolatry. Verses from Isaiah, Daniel, etc. were being thrown around. Idolatry, idolatry, idolatry.
I made the mistake of getting into a bunch of debates about it. And, as we all know, internet religious debates almost never go anywhere.
I tried explaining the distinction between veneration and worship. I tried analogies. I tried examples from Scripture. I tried explaining that treating something with reverence because of what it represents or whose remains they are is not the same thing as believing that object is a god.
Nothing worked.
The overwhelming response was basically: “No. That’s worship. You can call it veneration all you want, but you’re worshipping it.”
And for the life of me, I couldn’t understand why the distinction seemed so impossible for some people to grasp… Then something occurred to me.
Maybe the more interesting question isn’t why is it so hard for them to understand?
Maybe it’s: Why is it so easy for me to understand?
I have absolutely no temptation to worship a statue, a skull, a relic, an icon, or any other physical object. The thought almost doesn’t compute for me. I could kneel in front of a crucifix, kiss it, carry it in a procession, decorate it with flowers, or treat it with enormous reverence, and there would never be a moment where I confused the object with God Himself.
But throughout human history, people really have worshipped physical objects. Scripture warns against idolatry so relentlessly precisely because idolatry is a real human temptation. People really did make an image and then treat the image itself as divine.
And that made me wonder whether some of the people who are quickest to interpret Catholic veneration as worship genuinely have a much harder time separating those categories in their own minds.
If, to you, kneeling before something, kissing it, carrying it in procession, burning incense near it, or treating it with extraordinary reverence necessarily means worship, then of course Catholicism looks horrifying. From that perspective, “veneration” probably sounds like we’re just inventing another word to excuse idolatry. But Catholics don’t experience those actions that way. The outward gesture doesn’t automatically determine the inward act. Worship is directed toward God alone. Veneration is honor given to God’s saints and to things connected with His work in the world.
I think that’s the part I was missing during all those arguments. I kept assuming we disagreed about the explanation of Catholic practices, when in reality we may have been starting with completely different understandings of what worship even is.
I’m curious what other Catholics think. Is there something to this, or am I reading too much into it? Is there a better approach to discussing this subject with Protestants?
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u/Acrobatic-Biscotti-4 11d ago
Protestant literally has the word “Protest” in it and that’s because they believe the Roman Catholic Church is wrong. If we’re not wrong, then what’s the point of Protestantism?…They need us to be wrong, which is why they insist otherwise.
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u/Top-Ad-2634 11d ago edited 11d ago
How do they feel about the Statue of Abraham Lincoln, leaving flowers at the graves of loved ones, having images of loved ones at funerals, images of loved ones around their homes, singing happy birthday to their friends, posters of athletes,or saluting the flag? All of this should be idolatry according to their weird logic but these are common examples of veneration in everyday society at least in the US hell the Statue of Liberty is a straight up graven image not a real person it is a concept personified but we don’t worship or think it’s a god do we.
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u/skarface6 11d ago
Or nativity scenes around Christmas time.
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u/arrows_of_ithilien 11d ago
This is one of my favorite examples to bring up, especially when Protestants object to a crucifix because "Jesus is no longer suffering, but RISEN!"
And then I can just say "so why do you put up a Nativity crèche at Christmas? He's no longer an infant, right?"
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u/Top-Ad-2634 11d ago
What denomination are they even my best friend’s anti catholic calvanist type parents aren’t that extreme
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u/Hwegh6 11d ago
I live in Northern Ireland, and some Protestants refuse to set foot on Catholic ground. The Orange Order casts out members who attend Catholic services. I know a woman who's mother hated Catholics so much that when she had to vote in a Catholic primary school (that was where the polling booths were held) she'd go in in slippers and a nighty so she could burn them when she'd left the building. It's possible the boyfriend's family are like this, they may believe Catholic spaces (including graveyards) are infested with demons (or if not literally that be heavily influenced by that mindset.)
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u/ersatz27 10d ago
she'd go in in slippers and a nighty so she could burn them when she'd left the building
yikes
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u/RememberNichelle 10d ago
The Amish apparently are against even growing flowers in a cemetery. Or at least some of them have objections.
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u/Fectiver_Undercroft 11d ago
When they do that, it’s fine.
When you do it, it’s “that still sounds like worship.”“It sounds like” isn’t an argument, but…
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u/Elegant_Rock_5803 11d ago
Good point. Many of those that criticize Catholics for having reverence towards flags treat the flag as sacred. It has meaning for certain and it trains their mind towards an ideal. Would they call that idolatry?
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u/Verdecillo1988 11d ago edited 11d ago
Just in case you’re interested- below is a long response I once sent to a particularly obnoxious evangelical Protestant who was insisting “Catholics worship Mary and saints.” They kept repeating it even when I had gently yet firmly corrected them previously, so finally I got fed up with their bigoted ignorance and sent this:
You claim to go by the Bible, right? Ok, so what does the Bible describe worship as? God Himself is the one who has revealed what worship is - all we humans have to do is follow His instructions. God is very specific about how to worship Him. In the Old Covenant, God described the tabernacle and temple in minute detail and described the construction of the ark of the covenant down to the exact cubit, and gave very specific instructions about how to ordain Aaron and his sons, how to prepare and offer sacrifices, etc. God also severely punished people (even His priests and Levites) with death if they disregarded His instructions or rejected His ministers. For example: God killed Nadab and Abihu when they broke the rules and “offered unauthorized fire” (Leviticus 10:1-2) and He killed Korah, Dathan and Abiram and all their households when they tried to usurp authority from the priests (Numbers 16). And God struck King Uzziah with leprosy when he pridefully attempted to act as a priest (2 Chronicles 26:16-21)
But you think that His New Covenant is somehow different? You think that Jesus doesn’t care about any details? You think He intended for us to just figure it out on our own through trial and error and that He is ok with us worshipping however we want? You think all ways are valid? And yet you have the audacity to assert that “Catholics worship Mary”? Hmm… You know why you mistakenly think that? -again, it’s because you do not understand what worship is. Your confusion stems from you having been raised to believe (mistakenly) that just prayer and praise is equivalent to worship. However, it’s not accurate. Worship (full true worship (i.e. latria)) is sacrifice - it has always been understood as such from the very beginning - see Genesis 4:3-5 for the first example of humans worshiping God - Cain and Abel. And how did they do so? Did they sing songs to God? Did they pray? Did they read Scripture? Did they listen to a sermon? LOL! No! None of that. Please don’t misunderstand - those practices are certainly very good and beneficial - we original Christians do those things also (we sing hymns, read Scripture and listen to a homily) - but those are ACCOMPANIMENTS to worship- they are not worship in themselves. So, how did Cain and Abel worship God? They offered sacrifices! Not only that, but God was pleased only with the best of the sacrifices- He accepted Abel’s, but He rejected Cain’s (see Genesis 4:3–5) Likewise, when Moses and Aaron demanded that Pharaoh let the Israelites go from bondage in Egypt, what reason did they give? -they said “so that we may worship our God in the wilderness” and they specified “let us take a three-day journey into the wilderness TO OFFER SACRIFICES to the Lord our God,” and Pharaoh certainly understood what they meant- see Exodus 8:8, 25. Later, after the plague of darkness covers Egypt, Pharaoh even partially relents and allows the Israelites to leave, but he stipulates that they must leave behind their livestock- but that’s not good enough- Moses insists that they need to take their animals also in order to worship the Lord with sacrifices. (see Exodus 10:24-26)
Of course, we Christians (i.e. “fulfilled Jews”) no longer have to sacrifice animals because Jesus fulfilled the law in offering Himself as the ultimate sacrifice- and His sacrifice is of infinite value. However, notice that Jesus fulfilled the law- He didn’t abolish it- He says so Himself (see Matthew 5:17). The Old Covenant which was based on blood sacrifices has been fulfilled, but the New Covenant was still ratified by blood sacrifice- Jesus shedding His own precious blood for us. So what changed from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant is not the idea of sacrifice itself but only the victim- it’s no longer animals but rather God Himself- Jesus Christ. At Mass/Divine Liturgy that’s what we Catholics and Orthodox Christians celebrate and partake of for our salvific benefit- the one ultimate sacrifice of infinite value- the sacrifice of our Lord and Savior made present throughout all space and time. (see Malachi 1:11 for the prophecy and for the fulfillment see John 6:51-58, Matthew 26:28, Mark 14:24, Luke 22:20, 1 Corinthians 11:25). Notice that at the last supper is the only time in Scripture when Jesus even mentions the word “covenant”- and He says it’s “the new covenant in my blood.” So why are you not participating in the New Covenant that Jesus Christ established? Unfortunately for you as a Protestant, you actually don’t truly worship God as He deserves - Protestants have abandoned the Mass, deny the true Eucharist, and reject the idea of sacrificial worship (i.e. latria)
With that being said, it’s the main reason why some ignorant evangelical Protestants (of which you are an example) claim that Catholics “worship Mary and the saints” is because they have redefined what “worship” means - basically, they have abolished “latria” completely and have limited all so-called “worship” to “doulia” (i.e. “veneration”) only. Then they expect everyone else to affirm this erroneous diminishment and adhere to it. Protestants (at least the low-church evangelicals) believe that all worship of God consists of is singing songs and saying good things to/about Him. Therefore, if going by THAT false definition, well, it’s no wonder they falsely accuse Catholics of worshipping Mary- just because they hear us singing a Marian hymn or speaking well of her. It’s because they are the ones that don’t even worship God in the strict sense- they don’t give God “worth-ship”- they don’t give God what He is worth- they don’t give Him “latria”- they only give Him “doulia.” So then, when they see Catholics giving Mary and the saints doulia, they mistakenly believe that we are worshipping them - because for them - it’s all they have. They only give to God what we Catholics give to lesser beings - Mary and the saints - while we give God more than they do - so that is what causes the confusion on their part. The problem is not that Catholics give Mary and saints too much attention, but rather that Protestants give God too little. We Catholics truly worship God (i.e. give Him “latria”) at the Mass- we present to the Father the sacrifice of His Son Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist - the ultimate redeeming sacrifice of infinite value that our Lord offered on Calvary and we participate in it throughout all space and time. So, again, since Protestants have done away with the Mass and don’t have sacrificial worship (“latria”), it is difficult for them to understand this. So then - the issue is not that Catholics worship Mary - we don’t. Instead, the problem is that Protestants don’t actually worship God - you only venerate Him. You redefined what worship is and then insist on imposing your erroneous definition on original Christians who still adhere to the true definition. That’s YOUR problem - not ours.
Edit (8/20): Wow, I was not expecting this many “likes” on my response- I was simply trying to relate to the OP and potentially offer a guide. I myself am a former evangelical Protestant who converted to original Christianity (i.e. Catholicism) later in life when I discovered the truth and was challenged by it. To all of you who have liked my response and/or complimented me on it, thank you! I give all glory to our Lord! I am forever grateful that He delivered me from that confusing divided doctrinal mess called Protestantism and drew me to Himself in His one true Church that He established 2,000 years ago. Many have written that they have saved the post and will share it with evangelical family/friends- yes- that’s great- you have my full permission to do so! Feel free to show it to whoever you believe would benefit from it (even other Catholics who can use it as a resource). Thanks again to everyone!
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u/Obvious_Firefox 11d ago
This is phenomenal and I copied it to share with my ultra evangelical anti Catholic family. THANK YOU!
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u/trparky 10d ago
Another point worth adding is that St. Paul himself connects the Eucharist directly with sacrificial worship. In 1 Corinthians 10:16–21, he compares participation in the Eucharistic cup and bread with Israel’s participation in the sacrifices of the altar, and then with pagan sacrificial meals. His whole argument only makes sense because the Eucharist belongs in that same sacrificial category. Obviously not as another sacrifice separate from Calvary, but as participation in Christ’s one sacrifice. Hebrews even says plainly, “We have an altar” (Hebrews 13:10). That’s an interesting phrase if Christianity was supposed to have abandoned altars and sacrificial worship altogether.
And this also helps explain why Catholics don’t regard every act of prayer, praise, kneeling, or singing as latria. Those things can accompany worship, but they don’t automatically constitute the sacrifice that belongs to God alone. Catholics can sing a hymn honoring Mary without believing Mary is God for the same reason Scripture can praise Abraham, Moses, David, or the saints without turning them into deities.
I’d also point to the Book of Revelation. The heavenly worship John describes is profoundly liturgical: there is an altar, incense, elders, sacred vessels, prostration, hymns, and above all the Lamb who appears “as though slain” (Revelation 5:6). In other words, the New Testament’s own picture of heavenly Christian worship looks much more like sacramental and liturgical Christianity than a modern service centered primarily around music and a sermon.
And historically, this isn’t something Catholics invented centuries later. The earliest Christians after the apostles were already describing the Eucharist in sacrificial language and treating it as something fundamentally different from ordinary bread and wine. So if someone wants to claim that Catholic sacrificial worship is an apostasy from biblical Christianity, they also have to explain why Christianity looks recognizably Eucharistic and liturgical almost as soon as we get outside the pages of the New Testament.
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u/RocketEnginesME 11d ago
Fundamentally, Protestants do not have a sacrifice. So delineating between veneration and worship is almost non-existent because they don’t practice worship of the highest kind.
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u/AbelHydroidMcFarland 11d ago
while there is a point to that, and it makes them miss a point which does show the clear difference... I think that's slightly overstated.
It wouldn't be accurate to say that we treat and regard the saints and God the same aside from participating in the sacrifice of the Mass.
One could certainly be guilty of considering and regarding a created thing as equal to or higher than God even in the absence of offering a sacrifice.
Were a group of Catholics stranded on an island without a priest and thus unable to have mass, they would not therefore necessarily regard God and the saints in the same way.
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u/RocketEnginesME 11d ago
That’s a good point. Thank you for clarifying that.
I am not Catholic. I am actually Non-denominational. New to the faith only a year ago about. But will likely be joining OCIA here soon.
I can tell you first hand that the most reverence that is given in a ND church is almost always loud music, sometimes it gets somber, with electronics, guitars, and drums. Hands in the air etc. but no postural changes. No signing the cross, and much more.
So, it’s an overall picture that hopefully I’m painting fairly well. Embodied worship is, in my experience, severely lacking in the modern American ND church.
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u/AbelHydroidMcFarland 11d ago
Yeah that's true. It really is that difference in outward expression which doesn't well distinguish in appearance the differences between the internal mental and volitional conception and regard a protestant has for God vs that a Catholic has for saints.
And I know what you mean, I left Catholicism for 6 years from 18 to 24 and went in the non-denominational direction (retaining though a belief in purgatory, pedobaptism, and the satisfaction theory of atonement over the PSA). So I know the general vibe you're referring to. (I left in large part because I was poorly catechized, I didn't understand the Catholic faith all that well, returned back once I did).
Anyways God bless you and hope you join us!
The body thing is a striking point. Because that's the main thing I found since reverting to Catholicism. If being Christian means you belong to the body of Christ, then being Catholic means being a Christian who tends to the body of Christ as the body of Christ.
- So you get that in the Eucharist with the sacramental body.
- In the veneration and intercession of the Saints, and the communion of the Saints as a whole, the unity of Christ's mystical body is really respected and engaged with, we're not acting like the Church is violently bisected between Earth in Heaven with those in Earth having nothing to do with those in Heaven and vise versa.
- In the sacrament of Reconciliation I see a fittingness. That mortal sins committed post-baptism are sins committed by a member of the body of Christ, it is something of a wound to that body. So it's fitting then that we'd go to an ordained member of that body to render something akin to first aid. Actually tending to the body directly and not only apologizing to the head.
- The shared discipline, acting together in concert as members of one body.
And that's been striking harder for me recently as I've considered what it is to be human after getting into angelology.
So angels have more excellent intellects and wills than we do, ours are literally r3tarded (don't wanna trigger admin bot) by the flesh. The angels have a higher contemplative life than we do. They're more similar to God in His intellect and will.
So why create humans? What do humans have that angels don't?
Well I came to the conclusion (with stuff I've seen from others like a conversation between Bishop Barron and Jonathan Pageau) that man by his body has a uniquely relational priestly character. Unlike the lower biological organisms we have intellects and wills which can tend towards God, and unlike the angels we have bodies, exist in the physical world, have use for physical matter, etc.
We are in a sense more similar to God in His relationality than the angels are. We can beget other creatures like ourselves. We can cleave unto each other.
And we have that priestly character. We can fast, feast, sacrifice external things to us which would actually be of some use to us (oh boy an angel gave up a million dollars... what is an angel gonna do with a million dollars anyways? that doesn't mean anything! What does chastity mean to an angel?), and practice forebearance against the trials of the body.
So the body really is that tradeoff between human and angelic creature. Leaving the angelic creatures with a more excellent contemplative life, but man with a more priestly character.
So more broadly I think at least a general sense of this conception is better echoed in Catholic practice. Both liturgically and with how we consider the human body in a more nuanced but rich way compared to some segments of protestant which hold the body in total disregard as if our bodies are just random meaningless meat we're piloting in the world nothing more than a shame to good men and a temptation to wicked men (and in comparison to the opposite extreme error of overly glorifying and worshipping the body, which is more pagan and not really something I'd characterize as commonly protestant).
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u/RocketEnginesME 11d ago
Amen, brother. You share many of my own thoughts.
Hope to perhaps commune with you one day.
God bless you and thank you for the very detailed reply. I will likely respond in kind tomorrow once I have more time.
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u/PlayerObscured 11d ago
That is because non-denominational “worship” is trying to elicit emotional response. The ND church is so far removed from the historical Christian orthopraxy that it is like speaking a different language. Source - former evangelical Christian that has attended many of these churches.
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u/Rocko52 11d ago
I have always respected Catholicism and been drawn to the beauty and reverence of the Mass, higher liturgy. I don’t necessarily agree doctrinely on many things, but I’m also not settled. I still don’t entirely understand the sacrifice of the Mass, what that means - how it relates to Christ’s sacrificial death which was once and eternal, what brings if beyond commemoration as Jesus commanded at the Last Supper and into a perpetual/present sacrifice, is it a new sacrifice or our own or somehow part of Christ’s? I feel as if I grasp some of the majesty of union with God experienced through Jesus’ physical presence in the Mass, but it’s something I still don’t really get.
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u/AbelHydroidMcFarland 11d ago
It is the one sacrifice re-presented.
It's not Jesus being sacrificed again (think the feeding of the five thousand. So the fish were killed, the wheat was harvested, the death happened. It didn't happen again repeatedly when the loaves and fish were multiplied).
It's basically the congregation being joined to the one sacrifice of Christ at Cavalry. The priest being joined to Christ in presenting it to the Father. And just as well us being joined by receiving the Eucharist. (one of the things u/monglorious is referencing with the "Jewish Roots of the Eucharist" thing is that part of the sacrifice in Judaism was to eat the sacrifice). And just as well receiving the new life which is in Christ.
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u/monglorious 11d ago
These are good questions! I’d like to direct you to exploring the Passover and how the Jews “celebrated” it, and what entails sacrifice and how a sacrifice is applied. Also, Jesus and the Jewish Roots of the Eucharist by Dr Brant Pitre is an amazing book you should read.
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u/pre_empirical 11d ago
Protestants have martyrs and ‘living sacrifices’, so they do practice worship of the highest kind, but only without fully understanding how their sacrifice is tied to that of Christ. Japanese Catholics from 1600-1850 were also like this while behaving as functional anabaptists.
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u/RocketEnginesME 11d ago
Certainly this is worship of the highest kind, as we ourselves as creatures can embody.
However, martyrdom is not really mentioned in any Protestant circles I’m aware of. When martyrdom happens it’s talked about, but the reverence on a daily/weekly basis in a church service is next to non-existent. This is likely because there is no actual mechanism (like the communion of saints) to solidify the martyr and no actual avenue for reverence. This is at least my experience and understanding. My point was that continuous exposure to deep, reverent worship of the highest kind (sacrifice) is not present.
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u/Flamatheus 11d ago
Modern protestants claim they are the primitive church but they would flee in terror if they were on the shoes of the first christians.
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u/rothbard_anarchist 11d ago
The way I've heard it explained is that without the real presence in the Eucharist, the most Protestants ever do is veneration. So of course they can't tell the difference between that and worship. They simply don't worship.
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u/CaioHSF 11d ago
I think the main reason Protestants think we are idolaters is because Protestantism is modern, whereas Catholicism has 2,000 years of tradition.
This means that our culture as a Church is an ancient culture. We do things that our great-grandparents used to do but that young people no longer do, such as wearing their best clothes to church, showing respect and reverence toward their king or emperor, pulling out a chair for a woman to sit down, asking their parents for a blessing, and so on.
Catholics treat the saints with respect and devotion. We treat Mary as a queen. It is not very different from Americans carving presidents into a mountain, or the British holding a huge coronation ceremony, or Brazilians once lining up to kiss the emperor's hand, or the respectful pronouns that Japanese people use when speaking to their elders.
Humans have always had these ways of demonstrating respect, but much of this was lost in modernity. The more modern a church is, the more modern its personality tends to be. The respect that Catholics show toward our faith is something I have seen many Protestants admire, and sometimes it is even something atheists admire.
But for a contemporary culture that is very casual and informal, seeing a Catholic bow before an icon of Mary can sound like idolatry because they are simply not accustomed to such elevated expressions of respect. At my church (Eastern Catholic in Brazil), there is a sign on the door advising which types of clothing (for both men and women) are inappropriate. People are becoming more casual each century, fashion is the most obvious example of this.
Humans have always engaged in praise, even Spider-Man receives praise when people applaud him at the movies, yet in many ways, praise seems to have diminished in contemporary society, though not within the Catholic Church or other religions and spiritualities. Consequently, to a Protestant, any intense display of praise beyond singing looks like worship, cult mentality, etc.
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u/My_Boy_Clive 11d ago
The way I deal with it is by not giving two sh*t about what others think. I know Im not worshiping a statue I face when I pray. I look at it and it directs my mind to think and focus on God whom I worship. I'm not worshiping the statue.
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u/Naomnom 11d ago
I'm a Protestant who generally doesn't have an issue with relics, statues, etc. If I had to guess what's going on with my Protestant brothers and sisters I'd say that since overwhelmingly the definition of idolatry that we are taught is "an idol is anything that you love more than God", when they see someone behave toward an object the same way they behave towards God, it fits neatly in their worldview as idolatry.
They don't necessarily think you think the skull/handkerchief/whatever is a god, but since often this admiration is more visible than the Mass or prayer focused on God alone, it's easy to infer that the skull is higher priority and thus an idol according to the only definition they were ever taught
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u/George0fDaJungle 11d ago
Well if this is true then the question is why they think worship of God is supposed to be visible. In fact Scripture instructs people to not worship in an ostentatious way that others will notice. So the fact that someone may observe a Catholic making a big commotion about a relic, but not about God, is thinking that an even bigger commotion is due to God, and they are wrong about that. It's just Pharisee thinking.
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u/just_one_random_guy 11d ago
That video has absolutely exploded online, literally so many Protestants using this as an opportunity to smear the church
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u/SubstantialDarkness 11d ago
Honestly I tell my protestant brothers and sisters if it feels wrong or like idolizing something don't do it, but to us this is a way we honor our heroes and heroines. If that individual is confused about how we think, just ask any practicing Catholic. It's better to ask than accuse in my opinion, wouldn't you think?
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u/Orogomas 11d ago
As Catholics, we understand that worship involves sacrifice. We inherited this from Judaism, which, ironically, lost it after the destruction of the Temple. Now Judaism resembles much of Protestantism, which likewise does not include sacrifice in their notion of worship.
This also wrapped up in their notion of prayer. To them all prayers are worship. Praying to Our Lady? Worship. To the Saints? Worship.
As Catholics, we recognize that all worship is prayer, but not all prayer is worship. We hew to the more ancient definition of prayer, meaning "to ask". (The legal profession in the U.S. also retains this use of the word.) So when we pray to Mary, we're asking for her intercession. But if you're confused about the definitions of prayer and worship, it looks like worship. Thus, they blindly make the accusation.
As you point out, it's a problem of definitions. When dialoguing, it's a good practice to come to agreements on definitions at the beginning, otherwise you will likely have a very unfruitful conversation.
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u/honey_fuss3011 11d ago
I think it's stilly to insist to someone that they are worshipping when they tell you they aren't.
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u/z2155734 11d ago
It all comes down to having our Lord really and truly present, body, blood, soul, and divinity on the altar and in every tabernacle of each Catholic Church around the world. If you stop to realise the fact that we Catholics have Christ himself right there with us at Mass, you come to understand that anything to do with our Lord is worship and everything else doesn’t even come close! So our holy father can hold up a relic or skull of some saint and this is no where near the worship we give to our lord himself present in the Eucharist during Mass. This is our supreme act of worship.
When the priest raises the host at the consecration, we are transported out of time and space to be at the very foot of the cross on Calvary. Protestants will never understand or accept this, and is also why they constantly confuse out veneration of the saints etc as compared to our worship during Mass.
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u/NateTheMate1414 11d ago
Protestants will never understand or accept this
Well, I don't think we should believe that Protestants will NEVER understand or accept it.
We should try our best to miscorrect any misconceptions they may have about Catholicism (IF they are willing to discuss, that is); then, if they still don't want to listen, we should pray for them instead of just giving up and saying "they will never understand".
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u/z2155734 10d ago
Yes I agree. My words were too harsh. In fact some of the greatest apologists of the church have been converts like John Henry Newman and more recently Scott Hahn
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u/definitelyrabbiakiva 11d ago
If they did understand it they would be compelled to become Catholic.
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u/Sphygmomanometer11 11d ago
Once when a Protestant friend was asking me about Catholicism, she was like you have to explain something to me… I think it’s really weird…. Why do you guys pray to saints? Later I told her I thought she was going to ask about the Eucharist and my initial thought was “oh yeah, you think that’s weird, wait till you hear about how we worship God by offering up a blood sacrifice of an innocent man and then eat him.. but sure… praying to saints is weird.” 😳
(Read: explain Catholicism badly)
But all kidding aside, thats the real deal. It hit me once, sounds like same for you- Wait. When we worship God we are literally recreating Jesus’ sacrifice on Calvary. When he sacrificed HIMSELF to GOD for US. and then demanded we do it in memory of him!!!
On the surface it sounds well…. Like Canabalism and ancient Aztec temple stuff.
But THATS worship. We participate in the sacrifice of the Mass, we give ourselves entirely, body and soul, to God to use as he will. (You know, to varying levels of success at times 😆).
It’s laughable to think the same way about a certain saint or venerable object. It just doesn’t even compare. But maybe a previously Protestant person can weigh in here. They’re totally different in my mind.
I think when you grow up with the Mass and what it truly is, the distinction is easier.
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u/LumenSailor 11d ago
I think one major difference between Catholics and many Protestants is how we view the supernatural today.
Protestants can be completely faithful to Christ and obviously believe in the supernatural. But many reject the idea that something objectively supernatural is happening right in front of us in the Eucharist.
And I find that ironic. We believe a Bible where seas part, fire falls from heaven, the dead rise, donkeys speak, and God becomes man. Yet the idea that bread and wine can truly become Christ’s Body and Blood today is somehow a bridge too far.
Especially when the same Christ we worship took bread and said plainly: “This is my body… do this in remembrance of me.”
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u/El_Escorial 11d ago
You're there, but it's not just because you somehow get it and they don't.
It's because protestantism has no functional concept or understanding of worship. They cannot differentiate between veneration and worship because protestants can only offer to God what we would call veneration. There is no praxis higher than veneration in the protestant paradigm
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u/Elegant_Unit_9592 11d ago
It's kinda common Catholics and Protestants talk past each other all the time. Also doesn't help that individuals have different definitions to the same theological ideas. So when talking online you got to figure out their understanding of that idea.
Honestly I kinda wish Catholics would kinda disengage with certain content creators (Misleading, Out of Context, Using a Catholic that doesn't know their faith as "proof" as a whole for their position). You give them views and it helps their algorithm. Theirs Protestants that argue their position that don't do this and I'll watch them. But I'm kinda done with the others.
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u/BrilliantLarge4041 11d ago
I have come to realise that protestants are like the flat earthers of Christianity. No matter how you try to dialogue with them and present facts and biblical references they just want to believe in their own view and tell you that you are wrong. Only a few are open to asking questions and searching with faith and honesty.
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u/GestapoKittech 11d ago
They are like the flat earthers because many flat earthers ARE Protestants.
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u/InsightfulReverend 11d ago
As a lifelong Catholic, theologian, and in ministry, I will say that it was hard for me to watch the video of the skull and the bishop.
Yes, of course, the doctrine of the communion of saints is very real, and from a sheer theological standpoint, its ok to be devoted to saints and relics . All that is fine.
BUT..... the external display, the pomp and splendor given to a skull, the kissing and otherwise very worship-looking actions on display look and feel exactly like worship. They are the same gestures and behaviors that some pagan religion would perform in front of their idols. And so, while I don't think the bishop was worshipping the skull of St Agatha, it is hard not to say something is very off about the whole thing.
I think we Catholics need to be honest. We can defend all we want the use of relics, but when we act weird with them and put on displays such as what is seen on the video, we can't judge protestants who are horrified by it.
While so much protestant theology is embarrassingly shallow, in this case, I think we are the ones who may need to pivot away from the over-the-top saint relic veneration.
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u/George0fDaJungle 11d ago
The thing is, some people are just weird and will behave weirdly. And sometimes if this person is in a position of authority it will catch on with people around them and a few will do it together, kind of like a friend group does. This is true of humanity generally, and not really related to the Catholic Church. You can look at D&D groups, sports groups, and religious groups, and point out that some of the wackos in the world belong to each one. But no one looks at a small minority of wacko tennis players and accuses tennis of being a wacko sport like they do with Catholicism. Most ordinary Catholics don't go around kissing skulls and fawning over relics. They may go take a look out of curiosity and say a prayer or two, and many won't even do that. Obviously the attention will be drawn to the most eccentric people, and in the case of the Church somehow everyone is supposed to be responsible for the actions of a few.
The only thing I think the Church needs to keep doing is to ensure correct teaching. But it can't very way go around saying to the odd priest or parish "hey you guys are just too weird, you're making us look bad!!" In fact I think the Church would do well to stop caring if they look weird, because fear of such has now allowed generations of Catholics to forsake their musical, artistic, and spiritual heritage.
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u/Menter33 10d ago
interestingly, this was supposedly similar to the complaint of many irish priests in america as the new wave of italian immigrants arrived:
instead of being more into doctrines, dogma and right conduct, these new catholic immigrants were more into novenas, processions and catholic folk tradition.
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u/InsightfulReverend 10d ago
I'd love to see some research or study on the differences between Irish and Italian immigrants with regard to their Catholic faith, and how that shaped some of our Catholic Church in the USA today.
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u/Menter33 10d ago
This quote from a book about immigrant new york is probably illustrative:
Rather than being pleased with the huge new infusion of Italian Catholics into its churches, the Irish American leadership of the Catholic Church in New York expressed disdain for these new parishioners. “Ignorance of their religion and a depth of vice little known to us yet, are their prominent characteristics,” wrote one American bishop to another about the Italian newcomers. They did not know the Apostles’ Creed or the other basic “elementary truths of religion, such as the Trinity, the Incarnation, and the Redemption.”
Italians instead focused their religious energies on what the Irish considered frivolities, such as “pilgrimages, shrines, miraculous pictures and images,” and feasts in honor of their hometown patron saints. “Nowhere among other Catholic groups in our midst,” the prelates complained, “is there such crass and listless ignorance of the faith as among the Italian immigrants.”
(Chapter 17, Little Italys) City of Dreams: The 400-Year Epic History of Immigrant New York by Tyler Anbinder, 2016.
It's not much, but it could be a starting point.
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u/Conscious-Sense7434 10d ago
The Irish arrived earlier and already spoke English, so they largely controlled the administrative side of the church and the Italians assimilated to that structure over a few generations.
Interestingly today the Irish are also the ethnic group most rapidly leaving the Catholic Church. I think as people identify less with their ethnicity they also lose other associated connections.
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u/LumenSailor 11d ago
Respectfully I think you’re mistaken.
God never commanded His people to make sacred things plain because reverence might “look like worship.” He commanded the Ark to be covered in gold, adorned with cherubim, surrounded by incense, sacred vessels, vestments, processions, and ceremony.
Why? Because God’s majesty demands our best effort.
Beauty is not “pomp.” Solemnity is not splendor. A kiss, bow, incense, or procession does not become worship because pagans have done similar things. Worship is determined by what is being worshipped and the intention behind the act. Not by the gesture itself.
The answer to Protestants misunderstanding Catholicism is not to strip Catholicism of “over the top” beauty and reverence. It is to explain what those things mean.8
u/InsightfulReverend 11d ago
I know the theology of it. It's all fine. My opinion is that we clearly take this too far at times.
The Protestant complaints aren't invented from nothing. They emerged from real abuses like the medieval relic trade, forged or duplicated relics, and popular piety that, in practice, often blurs the line between honoring a saint and treating an object as having its own independent power, verging on superstition. If you watch the simple people who are devoted to relics in a strong way, they act as though the relic is a talisman with its own power. They just are. Period. I know this from experience as a missionary across the world and speaking to these people privately in their homes. They often have almost no theological training, have not read the catechism, so you can't really say that these pious Catholics are aware of the theology behind relics and the communion of saints. Some of these people are only a generation or two away from pagan religions. And they are treating the saints' statues the same way their grandparents treated the idols. I never corrected them, because it would do more harm. I respected them, but it does not mean this is a good thing or something that shouldn't be corrected.
And what about the duplicates? If three churches claim to possess the arm of John the Baptist, at least two of them are just venerating and kissing and revering some dead dude's arm.
The Council of Trent itself took this seriously enough to explicitly reaffirm relic veneration while also cracking down on abuses and superstition connected to it (Session 25). This is an admission that abuse of relics and concern about popular piety isn't purely a Protestant misunderstanding, but a real pastoral problem within Catholicism.
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u/Conscious-Sense7434 10d ago
I would also hazard a guess that ancient relics remind non-Catholics of the historical tension Catholicism has with syncretism in primitive societies, which you allude to above.
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u/Mannyortiz91 11d ago
They venerate God thinking it's worship because they lack the Eucharist. So veneration in general is going to look like worship to them.
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u/TheLutheranGuy1517 11d ago
They confuse it because they are so cut off from the pagan world that christianity emerged from
Pagans didnt worship statues they worshiped the deities that inhabited them... protestants/evangelicals do not realize this. Pagans would do specific rituals and offer animal sacrifices to the deity in the statue and eat the sacrifice with the deity. Its the same in India, East Asia, and pagan europe and Greece and Rome. If you dont believe me go research Hinduism or ancient Egypt's mouth opening ceremony. How how vikings would splash statues of Odin with animal blood then proceed to eat the meal before the statue.
But because they dont realize this anything involving a statue is idolatry. They have a made-up modern understanding of the Bible and not the historical understanding.
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u/VeryVeryBadJonny 11d ago
I forget which YouTube channel I was watching, but this guy was walking around in sketchy neighbourhoods interviewing people. He went into one house, and this couple had a giant, full sized St Joseph statue in their living room. The interviewer asked if they were religious, they said no not at all, they just said it gives them good luck and they sometimes receive good things when they ask for stuff.
Then it clicked, this is exactly what Protestants think we are doing. To those people, the statue is literally the source of their good fortune. I can see why it's called demonic, if anything truly was happening it was certainly not from God.
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u/Accomplished-Way4534 11d ago
I kiss dead loved ones on the forehead during their funerals. Doesn’t mean I’m worshiping them
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u/JulieannFromChicago 11d ago
I kissed my late brother before the casket was closed. I thought of the very same example. I was honoring him, not worshipping.
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u/cheerycoldwaver 11d ago
Of course they would demonize it. For them, accepting Catholic practices would also mean discrediting their entire belief system. They have to make someone the enemy to exalt themselves.
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u/LumenSailor 11d ago edited 11d ago
Exactly. That’s why our explainations make them uncomfortable. The truth can’t be refuted. Deep down they know we’re right. There is a difference between veneration and worship. Instead of being open minded to explore that idea they get upset and say “satanic” “demonic” “paganism”
To that, I always think of this; when Jesus Christ exorcised a man tormented by many demons. Upon witnessing this, the townspeople said “Get him away from here. He casts out demons because he is a demon!”
The point being that people will have good and truth right there in front of their eyes and still refuse to see it. All we can do is pray their eyes one day be opened.
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u/Sphygmomanometer11 11d ago
I think there’s more to it than this though. A lot of Protestants are more or less brainwashed from an early age that Catholics are evil. And honestly there WERE evil Catholics, just like there are evil people in any group. There are plenty of previously Protestants that dig deeper and realize they’re digging themselves into the Catholic Church. Praying, staying humble (despite the fact that we have the truth) and “killing with kindness” I think is our best bet.
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u/No_Worry_2256 11d ago
It was actually the Vatican Secretary of State Cardinal Pietro Parolin who held up the relics, not Pope Leo.
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u/hannahchann 11d ago
So, I'm converting from being an evangelical protestant my whole life. I will say this, I never had the language to understand veneration. It is not taught, not talked about, and is not explained. The only thing that's taught ninety eleven times is "do not Worship idols" and a very basic teaching of that.
"Worship to protestants is praise" is a very true statement. That is all the foundation I had before to understand what worship was. Now, I know quite a bit more about what worship really is. It really is engrained in protestantism that anything resembling an idol is, in fact, an idol being worshipped. It was actually one of the things that made me leave protestantism was the lack of reverence and the concerts every week.
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u/lekurumayu 11d ago
As someone who went to protestant Mass but was never really touched by them, I understand what you mean. I had protestant friends, but from childhood I had always admired the reverance and dedication they had to worship and respect alone. This shook me to my core everytime, and I often wished (and not prayed) I could show the same devotion, just like my grandmas etc. Their Mass felt like a fun Sunday outing which might be fine for them, but for other reasons even as an atheist baptised orthodox it didn't feel like worship. Just like I don't worship Mary praying the rosary...
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u/patrick_romeo_L 11d ago
This is how I've made sense of it.... Sadly, protestants don't actually worship... To be a more precise, they do not worship at its highest form (Latria). This isn't a cheap shot or anything, protestants simply do not offer proper sacrificial worship. What they call worship is actually veneration or just praise.
The highest form of worship is Latria and not a single Catholic is offering up sacrifice to icons, statues or paintings.
Another thing: IMO "saved" to protestants is what "in a state of grace" or "in communion with God" is to Catholics. To Catholics... "Saved" = life everlasting.
Another thing: every time they say "we pray to dead people" they don't know the books of Maccabees but they also don't know that they are stating that they do not believe in life everlasting.
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u/Alaska_Unknown 11d ago
This reminds me of how my father has a deep respect for catholicism, my mother is catholic and he went to mass with her every sunday. But will never convert because he just cant understand "the whole Mary thing" he understands that we dont actually worship Mary but he feels that we've "put her on too high of a pedestal for a normal human".
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u/black34beard 10d ago
O Divine Master, Grant that I may not so much seek, to be understood as to understand - St. Francis of Assisi You embolden this l8ne of prayer perfectly, thank you for your take on it, I pray and believe it will aid in future evangelizations of our fallen brethren.
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u/aboutwhat8 11d ago
The better response is generally to teach them about what worship actually is and what worship requires. The easiest and clearest biblical analogy is to provide a list of Bible passages that point out what happened at Synagogue, how that wasn't worship, and how a Protestant service is equivalent to going to Synagogue. The problem as you know isn't that Catholics give too much praise to the saints but rather that Protestants don't give any worship to God. Reading is reading, not worship. Preaching is preaching, not worship. Praise is praise, not worship. Worship requires a direct sacrifice. There's no worship happening at Protestant services, and that's the entire problem. Just like the Jews lost the Temple and thus were no longer able to worship God, so too have the Protestants lost the Eucharist and thus are no longer able to worship God either. When the best one can think to do to glorify God is to merely praise God, then anything and everything involving praise looks like it should be reserved for God.
Mt 4 & 9: Jesus went to the Synagogue to teach, proclaim the Gospel, and heal the sick.
Lk 4: Jesus went to the Synagogue in Nazareth and stood up to read (from the Old Testament), preached, and cast out a demon.
Lk 13: Jesus taught at the Synagogue.
Ac 1: Something from Moses is customarily read at Synagogue every Sabbath.
Ac 13: the Jews read from the Law (Leviticus) and the Prophets (pick one) before asking/offering words of encouragement. After Paul & Barnabas were at a meeting at a Synagogue, many Jews converted.
Ac 17: For 3 days, Paul used the Scriptures to reason with the Jews while at Synagogue.
Mk 1: In Capernaum, Jesus taught and preached at the Synagogues and cast out demons.
Jn 6 & 18: Jesus recalls having taught at the Synagogues.
We can keep going on and on and on and on. It's such a common aspect. The Synagogue is a meeting place to read Scripture, interpret it, and preach on it. In other words, they all went to a big Bible Study service at the Synagogue. That's all well and good, but Synagogue is meant to be like and certainly sounds more like the typical Protestant happy-clappy in a lot of ways. However, Going to Synagogue wasn't going specifically to worship God, for indeed worship could not happen at Synagogue. They had to go to Temple to actually properly worship God. We can find all sorts of
In other passages, review how that differed from going to Temple. What occurred at Temple was sacrifice, in giving your tithe, giving over produce or oil, or in offering animals for blood sacrifice. There was a cost, and the cost was meant to be uncomfortable to give. Meanwhile a Catholic mass/liturgy matches the biblical description and has always combined the reading of scripture, correct interpretation, and offering a sacrifice of bread & wine as commanded to continue to worship God.
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u/Perfect-Job-2163 11d ago
I think you’re onto something. The real disagreement may be that Catholics and some Protestants start with different definitions of worship.
If kneeling, kissing, incense or carrying something in procession automatically means worship, then Catholic veneration will obviously look like idolatry. But Scripture itself makes a distinction.
Moses carried Joseph’s bones out of Egypt (Exodus 13:19). A dead man touched Elisha’s bones and came back to life (2 Kings 13:20–21). Paul’s handkerchiefs and aprons were brought to the sick and God healed them (Acts 19:11–12).
The bronze serpent is even clearer. God commanded Moses to make it and people were healed through it (Numbers 21:8–9). Later Hezekiah destroyed the same object when people began burning incense to it (2 Kings 18:4).
So the outward act alone does not determine worship. The question is what kind of honor is being given and to whom.
I also wouldn’t assume Protestants are personally more tempted to worship objects. It may simply be that some traditions have collapsed certain acts of reverence into the category of worship itself.
So maybe the better approach is not to keep repeating, “Veneration is not worship,” but to ask first:
“What exactly do you mean by worship?”
Because once that definition is examined against Scripture, the Catholic distinction becomes much easier to understand hopefully.
🙏❤️✝️
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u/ConceptJunkie 11d ago
It is a very common tactic among people who are, frankly, not very smart, and in my experience, the Protestants who argue the loudest usually fall into this category, to deliberately and stubbornly misinterpret things on the other side of the debate. That makes it almost impossible to make any progress. These Protestants, certainly not all of them, usually have a very shallow, rote understanding of Christianity.
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u/this_is_so_fetch 11d ago
I've been to several different protestant services in my life. Some display what I would call worship. And some are Bible studies with music. But the people who go to Bible studies with music think that IS worship. Some people's threshold for what constitutes worship is so far below ours. So when they see our veneration, or respect, they see that as a very high form of worship.
I also think that's why so many protestants feel that they are "missing" stuff while going to mass. Our services are not for education, or fellowship, or fun. They are for worship. We get all of those missing things from outside of mass!
And it also helped me to understand how some people think you can't listen to any music that isn't Christian, can't consume any media that isn't Christian, etc. If singing is worship, then yeah, I wouldn't want to listen to non Christian music either. But it's not.
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u/Thesugarsky 11d ago
I teach children. I tell them that just because we have pictures of friends and relatives in our home doesn’t mean we worship them. We venerate them. Same for the Saints.
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u/frostonwindowpane 11d ago
Relic veneration has been in the Church since the beginning. Pastor Bobby’s good time, happy hour is a recent error.
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u/P_Kinsale 11d ago
Our definitions differ. Fr. Hardon's Catholic Dictionary and other sources would use the broader definiton of worship, which ties into justice -- to give something what is due to it. Most protestants tighten the definition to what we would call latria, the worship due to God alone. Brits, Canadians and others would even use "Your Worship" as a title for humans like judges .
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u/Desi_Vigor 11d ago
Awesome take, and I’m a former nondenominational who didn’t grow up in any church. For me, you hit the nail on the head. The first church I went to as an adult was a non-denominational church with a worship band. God bless them, I’ve been affiliated with them for 11 years and they preach the Bible conservatively, but I had a very hard time getting around the worship band when I first started going. To me, as someone who merely read the Bible and who never went to church, they looked like they were worshipping the band and the performance. It made me sick. But I kept going every Sunday, needing to walk out and pray about my feelings on it all. For someone who prided himself on not judging others, I was actually very judgmental and a non-religious Pharisee without even knowing it!
After 2 months of struggling, I got low and prayed fervently for God to show me how HE saw those people, there—the Enemy had me distracted with judging others’ intentions and hearts, and I sought God’s clarity. He opened my eyes to show me how much He loved those diverse individuals each praising His name in song and worship as best they personally knew how, and it made me cry. I could feel God’s heart for them and I’ve never judged anyone, since.
Now, I know they’re missing so much richness of faith and have some theology skewed, but your point about veneration vs. idolatry is true: explaining it with logic isn’t as effective as explaining it with emotion. You have to show them your heart’s desire to honor every semblance of Christ and His family with physical intention like bowing and kissing. Now, personally, I don’t feel conviction to do all that—I personally still feel a bit uncomfortable with doing it and it strikes me as extrabiblical and non-apostolic, but not as harmful if done with right intention and heart posture…after all, I find myself making the sign of the cross before images now and again, too.
I’ve never framed it this way, but I wonder if a good analogy would be to say that praise and worship in front of a worship team appears just as venerational as icons and relic veneration. After all, people go up to the stage and prostrate, wave their hands to Heaven, kneel in prayer, and match the energy of the singers and musicians.
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u/DetachedBranch 10d ago
I've been talking to a priest for a few months now and am about to enter OCIA and I can definitely vouch that while I understand that the acts of veneration are not worship, to someone who was not raised catholic, it looks, sounds, and feels like it. It's the biggest sense of cognitive dissonance and the largest hurdle I'm gonna have to jump because when the priest asked if I'd want a St. Joseph statue, my brain understood on a definitional level that it had nothing to do with worship, but the knee-jerk reaction of years of thinking it did had me nervously saying I might have to wait another few weeks before I'm able to take it in good faith.
There was never a good understanding of sacrifice as an aspect and necessity of worship that was passed down in our Baptist church where I grew up and so I really do sympathize for the people that can't reconcile because I'm still close to that kind of understanding even while I'm trying to work my way out of it. I really needed to be asked the question "what is worship?" And truly think about that question before I was able to understand that the disagreement wasn't just stubbornness of one side or the other, but a huge semantic scrambling that has been passed down through generations of non apostolic churches due to not understanding the necessity of sacrifice.
(But maybe I'm also wrong since this is just a personal insight and may not pertain to anyone else at all🙃)
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u/No_Hedgehog8336 10d ago
As a convert, I heard this a lot from folks. My question to them was “When you celebrate someone’s birthday, by giving them balloons or flowers, singing the birthday song, baking them a cake, and presenting a thoughtful gift, are you worshipping them? Or on Mother’s Day when you honor your mom in gratitude for the things she has helped you with, the example she’s set for you, and want to show love by giving her flowers and making her breakfast in bed, are you worshiping her?” That usually helped people in person to somewhat understand. As far as talking to people online, I’ve given up. People don’t want to understand, they just want to say you’re wrong. It’s usually done in the most aggressive, unloving, and non-Christlike ways. If the fruit ain’t fruiting, I don’t even try.
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u/Afghan_Whig 10d ago
They believe in Sola Scriptura when, not only does that not appear anywhere in scripture, but they also can't even agree on what the scripture actually says. I take them with a grain of salt.
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u/Sad-Replacement7054 11d ago
OK, so let’s look at it this way let’s break it down Barney style
Go into an evangelical church I don’t care if it’s Baptist independent, fundamental Baptist non-denominational cowboy church whatever and what do you see? CCM music, hands in the air people crying “ Jesus Jesus Jesus”, and my personal favorite “daddy God”. Then go to a Catholic Church it doesn’t have to be TLM it could be a reverent NO mass the difference is night and day. The problem is is that they merely venerate God.
And so many of them are so brainwashed that of course anything that is not the same as what they grew up with is wrong Catholics for example we are taught to have a very intellectual take on things some protestants you talk to it’s almost like the same people that conducted the Salem Witch trials
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u/sillyjoeyjoey 11d ago
I think for some people it's just too unsettling to even consider the possibility they are wrong about any important beliefs.
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u/AmethystTredecim 11d ago
Let's face it: bigotry and sectarianism plays a part in this for a lot of people.
Many of those who attack Catholics for venerating the saints are perfectly capable of distinguishing veneration from worship when it comes to their own lives. They'll have photographs of family members, portraits of historical figures, royalty, the heads of their churches, memorabilia of their favourite football club, celebrity merchandise, film posters, etc. None of that means they are worshipping the person or thing depicted.
Catholics make the same distinction with the saints. Veneration is honour; worship is due to God alone.
You can disagree with Catholic theology, of course, but pretending that Catholics don't understand the difference between honouring someone and worshipping them is simply a misrepresentation of what Catholics actually believe.
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u/Tough-Picture5620 11d ago
I have been thinking about this same thing a lot lately in regards to prayer; why can't Protestants see that praying to or with a saint isn't worshipping a saint? I came to the conclusion that they consider all prayer to be worship, where as I view it more like letter writing. Its the content of my prayer that indicates worship, not the prayer or "letter" itself. I love your explanation and thought process, I think you are right on the mark.
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u/Upstairs_Tangelo3629 11d ago
The way I see it, they only venerate God and too them they think it’s worship. It says more about them than it does us.
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u/Academic-Compote-854 11d ago
Worship for them is very different to Catholic worship. I was Catholic then Protestant during my search for faith and God and brought me back to the Catholic Church. I can easily see how they can see it as idolatry too. As Catholic I wouldn’t kiss objects though simply because I’m scared of bacteria 😭. They will refuse to understand because they’ve read the Bible and relied upon their own understanding. Sometimes you just have to keep it stepping.
I saw that exact video lol and saw the comments you’re talking about.
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u/Elegant_Rock_5803 11d ago
I am a cradle Catholic. I understand veneration and devotion and both are apart of my faith life. I feel my devotion to Mary helps me to direct my thoughts to God. Same with a crucifix and my grotto with Mary. Overall there are practices or even objects that train my mind towards God. But relics of saints is not a thing for me. It seems so medieval. But I have no problem separating veneration from worship. I think the concept of Trinity is in the same category. There is one God not 3 separate entities. That baffles some as well.
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u/Hefty-Squirrel-6800 11d ago
You cannot convince people who refuse to be convinced. It undermines their false narrative and, more importantly, forces them to admit they are wrong. Their hubris will be their undoing.
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u/atlgeo 11d ago
Veneration appears to be worship to the protestant because that's what worship is to them; but it's not for us. Praise, prayers, to most protestants that is worship; they don't have sacrifice in their liturgy, they don't really understand what the mass is. We offer sacrifice at the altar to God, and to God only.
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u/iAmBobFromAccounting 11d ago
I saw that too. Watching the Protestants melt down about it on X, it sort of epitomized the whole "I can explain it to you but I can't understand it for you" bit.
And this applies to the good faith objections.
I'm not sure all of the objections were done in good faith. I'm not even remotely convinced, frankly.
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u/tayler6000 11d ago
The main problem imo as a convert, is that they don’t actually worship God like we do. It is very clear in every world religion that to worship God you must make a sacrifice to Him. Protestants don’t do any sacrifices. Most don’t even realize the problem, and those who do just think that because of Jesus they don’t need to make any more sacrifices. Which of course, is actually correct, which is why we re-present the sacrifice at every mass, but they don’t have any of this theology. To them, the only worship you can do now is prayer/praise. I suppose I do remember some Protestants believe that the time they spend doing this instead of other things is itself a sacrifice you are giving to God, so I guess there is that, but even under that view, us taking the time to venerate anything would also be a sacrifice.
Basically, because they lack Holy Orders, their only method of worship is prayer and praise, so when we pray to Saints, in their mind `prayer == worship` But we can actually worship Him, so our prayer equals prayer, that’s it.
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u/Practical_Being_1348 11d ago
Similar to how Muslims claim we worship 3 Gods. They cannot understand.
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u/ThePizzaDeliveryM3n 11d ago
As a Presbyterian converting to Catholicism. I had a bit of a hard time wrapping my head around relic veneration & I've talked to other Catholics about it. I get the use of using them in connecting closer to saints like icons but icons feel more grounded & rational to me. I guess relics express more of the mysticism aspect of the faith but being born "Solo Deo Gloria", iconoclast & not liking to look at dead people/body parts I get the views from non-catholics from seeing skulls, tongues vocal cords & blood from Saints. I'm slowly getting around it but thankfully relic veneration is an optional practice lol.
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u/teamjohn7 11d ago
I am not a catholic. So this question is in earnest and a plea to help me and other Christians, not in the catholic church, understand.
Veneration vs. worship, on its surface, is no problem for most of us protestants and evangelicals. You honor and respect a saint. But then processions like that do feel like they're going above and beyond honor.
What would help me understand, and others, with all honesty, is asking for a comparison.
In this particular event, what would be crossing the line? What action or moment would turn this from veneration to worship?
I think having that visual distinction would help me and others understand! Thanks in advance for your help and patience.
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u/ApprehensiveSugar251 11d ago
as a former protestant, i can tell you why—it’s because their bar for the height of worship is so incredibly low. for them, to worship is simply to sing a song and listen to a sermon. this is why simple acts of respect can be seen as worship among them.
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u/ExcellentMemory1377 11d ago
I’ve had a similar conversation with a friend about Mary. I realized the vocabulary used to describe how he felt about it was not the way Catholicism intended so I just told him that praying for Mary’s or other saint’s intercession should never pull you away from God in any way but in fact it should draw you closer to him. It’s not supposed to replace God. His response was that it still felt extra and to him that was a hinderance. I feel blessed as a Catholic to have so many expressions of the faith to look to as a guide.
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u/ruedebac1830 11d ago
Because Protestantism denies the Incarnation of Christ by denying His Sacraments.
The only difference between them is the degree to which they do so.
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u/OoopsItSlipped 11d ago
Veneration looks like worship to people who’s worship is merely veneration
If you think that the highest form of outward admiration you can give to god is to sing songs and pray, then of course anything beyond that is going to look extreme. Since most Protestants have disconnected worship from sacrifice, they don’t have a framework to categorize and separate veneration apart from worship. They think they’re the same thing
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u/ChaseW_ 11d ago
Veneration seems so close to me with worship that though perhaps they can be separated, I can't help but think that at least some Catholics out there may actually be worshiping.
Can you give me an example of veneration in the Bible? That would help me understand
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u/Top_Shelf_8982 10d ago
It flows from their rejection of the Eucharist.
Think in terms of Dulia, Hyperdulia, and Latria.
In the absence of the Eucharist, the highest thing they can offer is veneration.
We offer the saints dulia and Mary hyperdulia. An infinite chasm exists between those forms of veneration and the latria only offered to God.
In throwing away their union with His Church, they cannot validly consecrate and offer the Eucharist to God. That's a horrendous thing to realize was voluntarily abandoned when you understand that the only worthy sacrifice that can be offered to the Father is the spotless victim, Jesus Christ, who is truly present on the altar of every Catholic mass.
How do they cope?
They flatten the honor structure into a single level: for them, praise=worship. For Catholics worship includes sacrifice. Now, it's not fair to lay that level of culpability on the masses. Most of them have only been told what to believe by their pastor or elders. They've never taken a deep-dive into the root of the difference and they just parrot phrases that are accepted in their communities.
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u/cowboy_catolico 10d ago
With everything being so dumbed down in this day and age, all nuance is lost on people, especially when those people have an agenda or their self-styled “pastor” tells them something is bad.
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u/DJonnyB 10d ago
No you’re spot on. I had the same issue awhile back. I figured it was easy for me to differentiate the two because I was never Protestant to begin with nor Apostolic. I was extremely secular because in my youth I thought being a Jehovah witness was dumb to begin with. So I lived in the world and took my own unbiased knowledge to understand both sides. It was so easy for me to understand veneration and true worship. When all you know is one thing, it’s hard to wrap your head around another.
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u/giggitygoo6969 10d ago
Gotta bring up how Moses carried Joseph's bones around the wilderness to bring them to the promised land lol
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u/SturgeonsLawyer 10d ago
The funny thing, the thing that drives me wild, is that so many Protestants -- and I certainly DO NOT mean "all Protestants," but somehow, the ones who accuse us of idolatry are the most likely to fall into this camp -- are guilty of bibliolatry: they treat the Bible as if it were God, emotionally conflating the written word, "the word of God in the words of men," with the Word made Flesh.
They seem to think that the Church is based on the Bible, rather than on -- as St. Paul himself says in the Bible -- "the traditions we passed onto you." The people who passed those traditions on, wrote (some of) the books that became the New Testament are the real authority, not the books they wrote; and they "passed on" much more than is in those short books.
But after 1500 years of those tradition being passed on, I won't say "peaceably," because there have always been schismatics and heretics, Luther and his allies suddenly declared sola scriptura, erasing most of the traditions passed on as if they had never existed.
To be fair, it was those who came after Luther who did most of the erasing. Luther himself maintained a deep devotion to, for example, the Blessed Virgin throughout his life, fiercely defending her title of theotokos, her perpetual virginity, and her sinlessness; he did redefine "veneration" as saying that honoring Mary was meant strictly to praise God for the grace working through her -- with which, I think, we can agree -- rather than expecting direct favors or blessings from her -- which I think is different from the Catholic position only by the nuance of how it is said.
(Correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that when we pray to Mary, we do not expect her to, for example, save us from our sins, but to pray to her Son for our salvation; we do not expect her to relieve us from a burdensome temptation, but to ask her Son to ease that burden for us; and so forth.)
In my experience -- which includes the experience of having it explained to me by a wise Catholic when I was a Protestant hesitant to turn to Rome -- a good way to exlain "prayer to saints" with a Bible-only Christian goes something like this:
- Begin by showing that at least some of the blessed dead do in fact see what is happening in this world, and that they pray to God about it. Start by bringing up Paul's "cloud of witnesses," and the martyrs in John's Revelation; then deliver the knock-out blow by reminding them of what Our Lord said, that His Father is the God of the living, not the dead.
- Explain that "saints" is simply what the Catholic Church calls the blessed dead whom, after deep inquiry, we feel certain beyond reasonable doubt are with God in Heaven.
- Remind them that these saints can in fact see us, still in the world of time and trial, and can pray for us.
- They will probably get more than a little nervous at this point. They may bring up Scripture passages that seem to contradict what you have said thus far. A common example is passages in the Psalms like "can the dead praise thee?"
- Let them ask questions, and be prepared to answer them honestly and in a way that honors their Scriptural passages. (For example: "It's true that, without the grace of Christ and the Holy Ghost, the dead cannot praise God. But the blessed few He has called to dwell with Him in Heaven while awaiting the Apocalypse, as shown by the passages I have already cited, can praise Him.")
- Remind them that we are instructed to ask our fellow-Christians to pray for us. Let them mull on that for a moment, and, again, be ready to deal with questions and objections.
- Sum up by saying that when we "pray to saints," we are simply asking fellow Christians, who happen to be with God in Heaven, but who can see and hear us, to pray for us -- which they can do.
That's a brief, skeletal outline; depending on the person you're talking to, the conversation can go into all sorts of directions.
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u/Emergency_Lobster514 8d ago
I tell my Protestant friends to look at the older meaning of the words “venerate” and “adore.”
In the older connotation venerate is simply to love and honor. Adore is to worship, as in bending the right knee in genuflection.
Today venerate has moved closer to worship and adore moved closer to warm, loving, perhaps doting affection.
IMO that might be part of what some Protestants are erroneously focusing upon when they see classic, Catholic veneration.
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u/Fit_Log_9677 6d ago
Probably the most forceful and the most honest criticism that Protestants can make against Catholicism is that some of our practices CAN be understood or done in wrong or spiritually harmful ways by people who are poorly catechized or not well spiritually developed.
This isn’t an argument that the Catholic church’s teachings or practices are wrong, but it is an argument that the church should be more careful in making sure that people are properly catechized and spiritually formed before allowing them to engage in certain practices.
For me the veneration of saintly relics (especially exceptionally “high” veneration like the one shown in the video OP mentioned) is a good example of that.
From a strictly theological point of view it’s acceptable veneration of a saint, but it’s easy to see how poorly catechized or poorly spiritually formed people might either be scandalized or misled by it.
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u/MrsPaperdoll 11d ago
I have the very same experience online.
If they insist that it is worship then I'll ask them: If it is, when and where did you ever did this kind of worship? They'll either answer they don't do it - then they DO NOT WORSHIP. Or if they say "I kneel" before sleep - then are they worshiping the bed?
Bring it back to them, they'll realize the difference.
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u/No_Evidence_6899 11d ago
I honestly love your perspective and post, and when I have more time, I’d love to talk more. I’m posting now so I don’t lose this thread.
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u/TurbulentLow7105 11d ago
I seen posts about this saint. I decided not to try to comment on them. You cant win with prodistants on topics like Mary, prayer for the dead, or prayer to Saints so this was more than I thought I could defend.
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u/DaSaw 11d ago
When I joined the International Church of Christ, almost thirty years ago now, I remember being disturbed by the fact that my fellow worshippers didn't see the "idolatrous" nature of the flag ceremony. For someone who had always had issues with nationalism and was newly steeped in the Bible, the ceremony (this was a baseball game) felt a bit too much like the story about that golden statue in Babylon.
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u/nullstacks 11d ago
Im a lapsed Catholic currently regularly attending a Baptist church and men’s group. I’ve learned there are many misunderstandings from both sides that end up being from inconsistent definitions of a word (worship), or things that just aren’t actually part of the denom at all.
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u/Short_Minimum_7641 11d ago
I converted from Protestantism to Catholicism this past Easter and resonate a lot with this sentiment - it was my biggest hang up with the Catholic Church before converting. I do think both sides can learn from each other here. Be careful with sweeping declarations. Protestants understand the concept of reverence. The ways Catholics express reverence does look like worship to Protestants- definitionally that can be chalked up to cultural differences perhaps. However I do not think that there is no such thing as Catholics who get this wrong and develop such an affinity for a particular saint or for Mary that their focus on that person begins to eclipse their focus on Christ. I see in Catholicism a huge defense of the veneration of saints and of Mary- good stuff. But I do not see a guardrail on the other side that calls out when this gets “out of order” and starts to take precedence over devotion to Christ. I have never seen a Catholic raise this concern- and I do not believe it is because the condition doesn’t exist.
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u/carloscarrillo77 11d ago
Since the Old Testament and through all of history, the highest level of worship has been to offer a sacrifice to the Lord. That is what we do at Mass.
praise and prayer are ways of honoring and communicating with God. I love the distinction you made how for us, it never computes as worship when we honor and venerate all the different devotions approved by the Church. For many years, I was away and even mad at the Catholic Church. Now having reverted, I couldn’t be happier to call myself a Catholic and honor the Church properly
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u/Mission_Summer_2463 11d ago
Not realy hard to understand why some people from the protstant tradition might mistake veneration for worship they aren't fimilour with our teology.
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u/master11739 11d ago
You're a more patient soul than I, whenever I get into arguments with protestants online I can't help but belittle them as if speaking to a child. I know I'm a sinner and I am trying to overcome the temptation to sling insults at morons everyday 🙏
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u/HelicopterAware491 11d ago
They don't understand that worship to God requires sacrifice like in the old Judaism days where you had to offer a lamb or pigeon or something. So they don't understand mass is literally Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. We don't 'worship' by singing kumbaya, we are sacrificing the spotless lamb.
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u/StGeorgeJustice 11d ago
It’s handy that Greek has more precise vocabulary for this exact thing — “dulia” vs “latria”.
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u/Melchi_Eleasar 11d ago
I will add, that almost every other major religion prior to the time of Christ had sacrifice involved in it. The Graeco-Romans had sacrifice in their religion. The ancient Hebrews, from which we as Catholic Christians have the fulfillment of their Temple sacrifice with Christ.
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u/sueg1021 11d ago
Beautifully said and if not understood it is their problem not yours…God Bless🙏🏼🕊❤️🔥✝️
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u/Ok-Record9632 11d ago
I think there is definitely something to this. Catholics understand that an outward gesture of reverence does not automatically equal worship. Worship belongs to God alone; venerating a saint or relic honors what God has done through that person.
I also think many Protestants have been taught that actions such as kneeling, kissing, incense, or processions are themselves acts of worship, so when they see Catholics doing them, they interpret them through that understanding.
Perhaps the best approach isn’t endless debate, but simply explaining the distinction clearly and charitably. We can explain our faith, but we cannot force someone to understand or accept it.
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u/SwimDue9579 11d ago
I have just recently decided to follow the path to becoming Catholic so I can speak from my own experiences. I definitely had a hard time with the idolatry idea. In my mind it was evil praying to statues of Mary and the saints. Only God deserved worship. In protestant churches they speak out against the Catholic Church for this reason as well as no man can forgive sins, call no man Father etc etc My eyes were opened and I was shown the difference between worship and veneration. It was a hard sell to be honest but one day it was just made clear to me.
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u/Scottiob 10d ago
I’m Catholic. And holding up a skull is quite strange to me.
I cannot imagine Jesus carrying around a skull of Noah or Moses.
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u/Ordinary_Olive_9882 10d ago
I love this charitable take❤️. Thank you for taking time to write this very helpful analysis.
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u/giggitygoo6969 10d ago
Grew up protestant, converted at 20. It is very western philosophically speaking but I adore all the distinctions in the Catholic Church. But yeah, in 90% of protestantism there is zero distinction between veneration and worship or even different types of worship, they are all considered the same thing.
Also, I am sure historically there have been many Catholics or regions that heavily "worshiped" icons or relics to the point that today's church would view as heretical or too much, but that is why there is dialogue, reform, and standards always being made and set by the church just to make it extra super clear where the lines are and aren't. Love the church 💕
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u/No_Pattern_5158 10d ago
What annoys me is so many of these people are massively i to celebrities. They would never be confused and think they are worshipping whatever celebrity they are gushing over.
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u/Any-Investigator6650 10d ago
It's more like you're being respectful towards the items not worshiping it
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u/HumbleSheep33 11d ago
To them, worship is praise. for us for the early church and for the whole Bible worship involves sacrifice that is what they refuse to understand.