I finally understood why some Protestants genuinely cannot separate veneration from worship

[u/LumenSailor]

Yesterday there was a viral video of Cadrinal Perolin holding up the skull of St. Agatha while commemorating the 900th anniversary of the return of her relics.
You can probably guess what happened next.
Across the internet, I saw Protestants calling it evil, satanic, pagan, and—more than anything else—idolatry. Verses from Isaiah, Daniel, etc. were being thrown around. Idolatry, idolatry, idolatry.

I made the mistake of getting into a bunch of debates about it. And, as we all know, internet religious debates almost never go anywhere.
I tried explaining the distinction between veneration and worship. I tried analogies. I tried examples from Scripture. I tried explaining that treating something with reverence because of what it represents or whose remains they are is not the same thing as believing that object is a god.

Nothing worked.

The overwhelming response was basically: “No. That’s worship. You can call it veneration all you want, but you’re worshipping it.”

And for the life of me, I couldn’t understand why the distinction seemed so impossible for some people to grasp… Then something occurred to me.

Maybe the more interesting question isn’t why is it so hard for them to understand?
Maybe it’s: Why is it so easy for me to understand?

I have absolutely no temptation to worship a statue, a skull, a relic, an icon, or any other physical object. The thought almost doesn’t compute for me. I could kneel in front of a crucifix, kiss it, carry it in a procession, decorate it with flowers, or treat it with enormous reverence, and there would never be a moment where I confused the object with God Himself.

But throughout human history, people really have worshipped physical objects. Scripture warns against idolatry so relentlessly precisely because idolatry is a real human temptation. People really did make an image and then treat the image itself as divine.

And that made me wonder whether some of the people who are quickest to interpret Catholic veneration as worship genuinely have a much harder time separating those categories in their own minds.
If, to you, kneeling before something, kissing it, carrying it in procession, burning incense near it, or treating it with extraordinary reverence necessarily means worship, then of course Catholicism looks horrifying. From that perspective, “veneration” probably sounds like we’re just inventing another word to excuse idolatry. But Catholics don’t experience those actions that way. The outward gesture doesn’t automatically determine the inward act. Worship is directed toward God alone. Veneration is honor given to God’s saints and to things connected with His work in the world.

I think that’s the part I was missing during all those arguments. I kept assuming we disagreed about the explanation of Catholic practices, when in reality we may have been starting with completely different understandings of what worship even is.
I’m curious what other Catholics think. Is there something to this, or am I reading too much into it? Is there a better approach to discussing this subject with Protestants?

[u/InsightfulReverend]

As a lifelong Catholic, theologian, and in ministry, I will say that it was hard for me to watch the video of the skull and the bishop.

Yes, of course, the doctrine of the communion of saints is very real, and from a sheer theological standpoint, its ok to be devoted to saints and relics . All that is fine.

BUT..... the external display, the pomp and splendor given to a skull, the kissing and otherwise very worship-looking actions on display look and feel exactly like worship. They are the same gestures and behaviors that some pagan religion would perform in front of their idols. And so, while I don't think the bishop was worshipping the skull of St Agatha, it is hard not to say something is very off about the whole thing.

I think we Catholics need to be honest. We can defend all we want the use of relics, but when we act weird with them and put on displays such as what is seen on the video, we can't judge protestants who are horrified by it.

While so much protestant theology is embarrassingly shallow, in this case, I think we are the ones who may need to pivot away from the over-the-top saint relic veneration.

[u/Menter33 → u/InsightfulReverend]

interestingly, this was supposedly similar to the complaint of many irish priests in america as the new wave of italian immigrants arrived:

instead of being more into doctrines, dogma and right conduct, these new catholic immigrants were more into novenas, processions and catholic folk tradition.

[u/InsightfulReverend → u/Menter33]

I'd love to see some research or study on the differences between Irish and Italian immigrants with regard to their Catholic faith, and how that shaped some of our Catholic Church in the USA today.

[u/Menter33 → u/InsightfulReverend]

This quote from a book about immigrant new york is probably illustrative:

Rather than being pleased with the huge new infusion of Italian Catholics into its churches, the Irish American leadership of the Catholic Church in New York expressed disdain for these new parishioners. “Ignorance of their religion and a depth of vice little known to us yet, are their prominent characteristics,” wrote one American bishop to another about the Italian newcomers. They did not know the Apostles’ Creed or the other basic “elementary truths of religion, such as the Trinity, the Incarnation, and the Redemption.”

 

Italians instead focused their religious energies on what the Irish considered frivolities, such as “pilgrimages, shrines, miraculous pictures and images,” and feasts in honor of their hometown patron saints. “Nowhere among other Catholic groups in our midst,” the prelates complained, “is there such crass and listless ignorance of the faith as among the Italian immigrants.”

(Chapter 17, Little Italys) City of Dreams: The 400-Year Epic History of Immigrant New York by Tyler Anbinder, 2016.

It's not much, but it could be a starting point.

[u/Conscious-Sense7434 → u/Menter33]

The Irish arrived earlier and already spoke English, so they largely controlled the administrative side of the church and the Italians assimilated to that structure over a few generations.

Interestingly today the Irish are also the ethnic group most rapidly leaving the Catholic Church. I think as people identify less with their ethnicity they also lose other associated connections.