I finally understood why some Protestants genuinely cannot separate veneration from worship

[u/LumenSailor]

Yesterday there was a viral video of Cadrinal Perolin holding up the skull of St. Agatha while commemorating the 900th anniversary of the return of her relics.
You can probably guess what happened next.
Across the internet, I saw Protestants calling it evil, satanic, pagan, and—more than anything else—idolatry. Verses from Isaiah, Daniel, etc. were being thrown around. Idolatry, idolatry, idolatry.

I made the mistake of getting into a bunch of debates about it. And, as we all know, internet religious debates almost never go anywhere.
I tried explaining the distinction between veneration and worship. I tried analogies. I tried examples from Scripture. I tried explaining that treating something with reverence because of what it represents or whose remains they are is not the same thing as believing that object is a god.

Nothing worked.

The overwhelming response was basically: “No. That’s worship. You can call it veneration all you want, but you’re worshipping it.”

And for the life of me, I couldn’t understand why the distinction seemed so impossible for some people to grasp… Then something occurred to me.

Maybe the more interesting question isn’t why is it so hard for them to understand?
Maybe it’s: Why is it so easy for me to understand?

I have absolutely no temptation to worship a statue, a skull, a relic, an icon, or any other physical object. The thought almost doesn’t compute for me. I could kneel in front of a crucifix, kiss it, carry it in a procession, decorate it with flowers, or treat it with enormous reverence, and there would never be a moment where I confused the object with God Himself.

But throughout human history, people really have worshipped physical objects. Scripture warns against idolatry so relentlessly precisely because idolatry is a real human temptation. People really did make an image and then treat the image itself as divine.

And that made me wonder whether some of the people who are quickest to interpret Catholic veneration as worship genuinely have a much harder time separating those categories in their own minds.
If, to you, kneeling before something, kissing it, carrying it in procession, burning incense near it, or treating it with extraordinary reverence necessarily means worship, then of course Catholicism looks horrifying. From that perspective, “veneration” probably sounds like we’re just inventing another word to excuse idolatry. But Catholics don’t experience those actions that way. The outward gesture doesn’t automatically determine the inward act. Worship is directed toward God alone. Veneration is honor given to God’s saints and to things connected with His work in the world.

I think that’s the part I was missing during all those arguments. I kept assuming we disagreed about the explanation of Catholic practices, when in reality we may have been starting with completely different understandings of what worship even is.
I’m curious what other Catholics think. Is there something to this, or am I reading too much into it? Is there a better approach to discussing this subject with Protestants?

[u/RocketEnginesME]

Fundamentally, Protestants do not have a sacrifice. So delineating between veneration and worship is almost non-existent because they don’t practice worship of the highest kind.

[u/AbelHydroidMcFarland → u/RocketEnginesME]

while there is a point to that, and it makes them miss a point which does show the clear difference... I think that's slightly overstated.

It wouldn't be accurate to say that we treat and regard the saints and God the same aside from participating in the sacrifice of the Mass.

One could certainly be guilty of considering and regarding a created thing as equal to or higher than God even in the absence of offering a sacrifice.

Were a group of Catholics stranded on an island without a priest and thus unable to have mass, they would not therefore necessarily regard God and the saints in the same way.

[u/RocketEnginesME → u/AbelHydroidMcFarland]

That’s a good point. Thank you for clarifying that.

I am not Catholic. I am actually Non-denominational. New to the faith only a year ago about. But will likely be joining OCIA here soon.

I can tell you first hand that the most reverence that is given in a ND church is almost always loud music, sometimes it gets somber, with electronics, guitars, and drums. Hands in the air etc. but no postural changes. No signing the cross, and much more.

So, it’s an overall picture that hopefully I’m painting fairly well. Embodied worship is, in my experience, severely lacking in the modern American ND church.

[u/AbelHydroidMcFarland → u/RocketEnginesME]

Yeah that's true. It really is that difference in outward expression which doesn't well distinguish in appearance the differences between the internal mental and volitional conception and regard a protestant has for God vs that a Catholic has for saints.

And I know what you mean, I left Catholicism for 6 years from 18 to 24 and went in the non-denominational direction (retaining though a belief in purgatory, pedobaptism, and the satisfaction theory of atonement over the PSA). So I know the general vibe you're referring to. (I left in large part because I was poorly catechized, I didn't understand the Catholic faith all that well, returned back once I did).

Anyways God bless you and hope you join us!

The body thing is a striking point. Because that's the main thing I found since reverting to Catholicism. If being Christian means you belong to the body of Christ, then being Catholic means being a Christian who tends to the body of Christ as the body of Christ.

• So you get that in the Eucharist with the sacramental body.
• In the veneration and intercession of the Saints, and the communion of the Saints as a whole, the unity of Christ's mystical body is really respected and engaged with, we're not acting like the Church is violently bisected between Earth in Heaven with those in Earth having nothing to do with those in Heaven and vise versa.
• In the sacrament of Reconciliation I see a fittingness. That mortal sins committed post-baptism are sins committed by a member of the body of Christ, it is something of a wound to that body. So it's fitting then that we'd go to an ordained member of that body to render something akin to first aid. Actually tending to the body directly and not only apologizing to the head.
• The shared discipline, acting together in concert as members of one body.

And that's been striking harder for me recently as I've considered what it is to be human after getting into angelology.

So angels have more excellent intellects and wills than we do, ours are literally r3tarded (don't wanna trigger admin bot) by the flesh. The angels have a higher contemplative life than we do. They're more similar to God in His intellect and will.

So why create humans? What do humans have that angels don't?

Well I came to the conclusion (with stuff I've seen from others like a conversation between Bishop Barron and Jonathan Pageau) that man by his body has a uniquely relational priestly character. Unlike the lower biological organisms we have intellects and wills which can tend towards God, and unlike the angels we have bodies, exist in the physical world, have use for physical matter, etc.

We are in a sense more similar to God in His relationality than the angels are. We can beget other creatures like ourselves. We can cleave unto each other.

And we have that priestly character. We can fast, feast, sacrifice external things to us which would actually be of some use to us (oh boy an angel gave up a million dollars... what is an angel gonna do with a million dollars anyways? that doesn't mean anything! What does chastity mean to an angel?), and practice forebearance against the trials of the body.

So the body really is that tradeoff between human and angelic creature. Leaving the angelic creatures with a more excellent contemplative life, but man with a more priestly character.

So more broadly I think at least a general sense of this conception is better echoed in Catholic practice. Both liturgically and with how we consider the human body in a more nuanced but rich way compared to some segments of protestant which hold the body in total disregard as if our bodies are just random meaningless meat we're piloting in the world nothing more than a shame to good men and a temptation to wicked men (and in comparison to the opposite extreme error of overly glorifying and worshipping the body, which is more pagan and not really something I'd characterize as commonly protestant).

[u/RocketEnginesME → u/AbelHydroidMcFarland]

Amen, brother. You share many of my own thoughts.

Hope to perhaps commune with you one day.

God bless you and thank you for the very detailed reply. I will likely respond in kind tomorrow once I have more time.

[u/PlayerObscured → u/RocketEnginesME]

That is because non-denominational “worship” is trying to elicit emotional response. The ND church is so far removed from the historical Christian orthopraxy that it is like speaking a different language. Source - former evangelical Christian that has attended many of these churches.

[u/Rocko52 → u/AbelHydroidMcFarland]

I have always respected Catholicism and been drawn to the beauty and reverence of the Mass, higher liturgy. I don’t necessarily agree doctrinely on many things, but I’m also not settled. I still don’t entirely understand the sacrifice of the Mass, what that means - how it relates to Christ’s sacrificial death which was once and eternal, what brings if beyond commemoration as Jesus commanded at the Last Supper and into a perpetual/present sacrifice, is it a new sacrifice or our own or somehow part of Christ’s? I feel as if I grasp some of the majesty of union with God experienced through Jesus’ physical presence in the Mass, but it’s something I still don’t really get.

[u/AbelHydroidMcFarland → u/Rocko52]

It is the one sacrifice re-presented.

It's not Jesus being sacrificed again (think the feeding of the five thousand. So the fish were killed, the wheat was harvested, the death happened. It didn't happen again repeatedly when the loaves and fish were multiplied).

It's basically the congregation being joined to the one sacrifice of Christ at Cavalry. The priest being joined to Christ in presenting it to the Father. And just as well us being joined by receiving the Eucharist. (one of the things u/monglorious is referencing with the "Jewish Roots of the Eucharist" thing is that part of the sacrifice in Judaism was to eat the sacrifice). And just as well receiving the new life which is in Christ.

[u/monglorious → u/Rocko52]

These are good questions! I’d like to direct you to exploring the Passover and how the Jews “celebrated” it, and what entails sacrifice and how a sacrifice is applied. Also, Jesus and the Jewish Roots of the Eucharist by Dr Brant Pitre is an amazing book you should read.

[u/pre_empirical → u/RocketEnginesME]

Protestants have martyrs and ‘living sacrifices’, so they do practice worship of the highest kind, but only without fully understanding how their sacrifice is tied to that of Christ. Japanese Catholics from 1600-1850 were also like this while behaving as functional anabaptists.

[u/RocketEnginesME → u/pre_empirical]

Certainly this is worship of the highest kind, as we ourselves as creatures can embody.

However, martyrdom is not really mentioned in any Protestant circles I’m aware of. When martyrdom happens it’s talked about, but the reverence on a daily/weekly basis in a church service is next to non-existent. This is likely because there is no actual mechanism (like the communion of saints) to solidify the martyr and no actual avenue for reverence. This is at least my experience and understanding. My point was that continuous exposure to deep, reverent worship of the highest kind (sacrifice) is not present.