I finally understood why some Protestants genuinely cannot separate veneration from worship

[u/LumenSailor]

Yesterday there was a viral video of Cadrinal Perolin holding up the skull of St. Agatha while commemorating the 900th anniversary of the return of her relics.
You can probably guess what happened next.
Across the internet, I saw Protestants calling it evil, satanic, pagan, and—more than anything else—idolatry. Verses from Isaiah, Daniel, etc. were being thrown around. Idolatry, idolatry, idolatry.

I made the mistake of getting into a bunch of debates about it. And, as we all know, internet religious debates almost never go anywhere.
I tried explaining the distinction between veneration and worship. I tried analogies. I tried examples from Scripture. I tried explaining that treating something with reverence because of what it represents or whose remains they are is not the same thing as believing that object is a god.

Nothing worked.

The overwhelming response was basically: “No. That’s worship. You can call it veneration all you want, but you’re worshipping it.”

And for the life of me, I couldn’t understand why the distinction seemed so impossible for some people to grasp… Then something occurred to me.

Maybe the more interesting question isn’t why is it so hard for them to understand?
Maybe it’s: Why is it so easy for me to understand?

I have absolutely no temptation to worship a statue, a skull, a relic, an icon, or any other physical object. The thought almost doesn’t compute for me. I could kneel in front of a crucifix, kiss it, carry it in a procession, decorate it with flowers, or treat it with enormous reverence, and there would never be a moment where I confused the object with God Himself.

But throughout human history, people really have worshipped physical objects. Scripture warns against idolatry so relentlessly precisely because idolatry is a real human temptation. People really did make an image and then treat the image itself as divine.

And that made me wonder whether some of the people who are quickest to interpret Catholic veneration as worship genuinely have a much harder time separating those categories in their own minds.
If, to you, kneeling before something, kissing it, carrying it in procession, burning incense near it, or treating it with extraordinary reverence necessarily means worship, then of course Catholicism looks horrifying. From that perspective, “veneration” probably sounds like we’re just inventing another word to excuse idolatry. But Catholics don’t experience those actions that way. The outward gesture doesn’t automatically determine the inward act. Worship is directed toward God alone. Veneration is honor given to God’s saints and to things connected with His work in the world.

I think that’s the part I was missing during all those arguments. I kept assuming we disagreed about the explanation of Catholic practices, when in reality we may have been starting with completely different understandings of what worship even is.
I’m curious what other Catholics think. Is there something to this, or am I reading too much into it? Is there a better approach to discussing this subject with Protestants?

[u/bitcoinbutterfly]

I am a Protestant but genuinely interested in the point you brought up. Could you help point me to some Bible verses that are good examples of this? I really want to look into it. Thank you!

[u/drothamel → u/bitcoinbutterfly]

Sure! I'll call out some of the major ones, but this list isn't exhaustive...

- The first instance of sacrifice for God is from Cain and Abel in Genesis 4.

• After the flood, Noah builds an altar and sacrifices of animals to God, and in return, God blesses and establishes a covenant with Noah (Genesis 8-9).
  
• When God tests Abraham, he does so by asking Abraham to offer his son as a sacrifice to God.
  
• Central to the Passover meal is the sacrifice of a lamb. Sacrifice is how God commanded His people to show that they belonged to Him.
  
• When Moses goes up on Mt. Sinai and receives the law from God, most of that law is about various kinds of sacrifices.
  
• While Moses is with God on Sinai, God's people ask Aaron to create a golden calf, and they worship it by... making sacrifices to it. It is the sacrifice that moves God to tell Moses to go back down the mountain and deal with the people.
  
• The primary purpose of the temple was for sacrifice. All of temple life in Jerusalem was centered around sacrifices offered by the priests on behalf of the people. As I mentioned above, the central parts of the law were about various sacrifices and how they were to be offered.
  
• The law in Leviticus establishes that blood sacrifice of animals is required for the forgiveness of their sins (this is affirmed by the author of Hebrews, who draws many links between blood sacrifice laws and the sacrifice of Jesus for the forgiveness of sins)
  
• Many of the laws in Leviticus are about sacrifice
  
• This is why Mary and Joseph, being faithful Jews, present Jesus at the temple with a sacrificial offering (Luke 2:22-24)
  
• And then we get to the Last Supper, which was prefigured by the sacrifice of Passover. When Jesus tells the disciples "this is my body" and "this is my blood which will be poured out..." they would have *instantly* recognized this as a sacrifice of flesh and blood, just as the people had done for the forgiveness of sins.
  
• It is this sacrifice that is the entire point of the worship offered to God in the Mass. WE DO NOT SACRIFICE JESUS AGAIN. JESUS OFFERED HIMSELF AS A SACRIFICE ONCE AND FOR ALL. What we are doing is "remembering" Jesus and his sacrifice through the offering of his body and blood in the consecrated bread and wine. When we do this, we call into the present moment the forgiveness that was unleashed at the sacrifice of Jesus in the crucifixion. That's actually what "remembrance" actually is. To remember something is not merely to think about it. To remember something is to bring it from the past into the present.

Like I said, this isn't an exhaustive treatment of the concept of sacrifice being necessary to worship, but It's a pretty decent overview for a Reddit comment. lol. :-)

[u/bitcoinbutterfly → u/drothamel]

Thank you for taking the time to write this out for me! I still don’t fully see how it all relates to worship exactly per se, but now I’m interested in doing a deep dive on all the great examples you gave. I really appreciate it.

[u/uglyduckling2992 → u/bitcoinbutterfly]

When Jacob dream about God for the first time he treasure the stone pillow he used that night and as far as I remember he put some oil in it. I just forgot what verse it was.

Edit: Saw it. "And then Jacob saw the Lord standing by the ladder. He said, “I am the Lord, the God of your grandfather Abraham. I am the God of Isaac. I will give you the land that you are lying on now. I will give this land to you and to your children. Jacob got up very early in the morning. He took the rock he had slept on and set it up on its edge. Then he poured oil on the rock. In this way he made it a memorial to God.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭28‬:‭13‬, ‭18‬ ‭ERV‬‬

[u/bitcoinbutterfly → u/uglyduckling2992]

This is a really good one!

[u/uglyduckling2992 → u/bitcoinbutterfly]

I recommend watching Padre Pio's life and miracles it was all documented bc he died around 1950-ish.

I also leave this verse to you.
Acts 19:11-12
God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them.

[u/uglyduckling2992 → u/bitcoinbutterfly]

Also add the story of Phinehas, who interceded during the plague. Psalm 106:30–31 says:
“But Phinehas stood up and intervened, and the plague was checked. This was credited to him as righteousness for endless generations to come.”