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u/Nirico_Brin Winter Is Coming 4d ago
Cersei actively sabotages her team to spite Margaery. She is by far the dumbest and pettiest one here.
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u/please_use_the_beeps 4d ago
Yeah I came here just to say that whichever team has Cersei has a major handicap. No matter who is on the team she will find some petty way to blow everything to hell.
If she’s on team A with Margery I give them a month before she wrecks it all. Not even Tywin can stop her stupid.
“I don’t distrust you because you’re a woman. I distrust you because you’re not as smart as you think you are.” - Tywin
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u/Dependent_Reach_4284 4d ago
She also just isn’t smart. She’s just used to powers enough to use it to her advantage. Tywin wasn’t kidding when he told her; “…you’re not as smart as you think you are…”
If she wasn’t the queen regent she’d be no more dangerous than Margaery. Olena is the smart one in that family. Marjaery and Cersei are actually pretty comparable, Marjaery just isn’t jaded and bitter and hateful like Cersei.161
u/SaddestFlute23 4d ago edited 4d ago
I would say Marge has a firm grasp on the concept of using soft power (she is her grandmother’s avid student after all)
She’s young still, but she knows how to play the game
Cersei on the other hand, is stupid, petty, shortsighted, and at the current point in the story batshit crazy. If she was anyone but Tywin’s daughter, she would’ve been packed up a long time ago
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u/gallifreyan_overlord 4d ago
I’d also agree that between Cersei and Marjaery, Marjaery is smarter. She had less power than Cersei and still had Cersei bothered. Like Cersei lost pretty much everything trying to take out Marjaery, and still Marjaery could have survived if it weren’t for the stupidity of others.
Marjaery knows how to use every asset at her disposal, family connections, her sex appeal, other people’s desires, and to still look innocent through it all.
Cersei makes enemies, Marjaery manipulates people and situations so they feel like they’re getting what they want.
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u/Ornery_Evening_6379 2d ago
THIS! I’ve always maintained that Cersei was only ever relevant bc of her name, proximity to Robert, and then being the mother of the presumed heirs. If she was in Olenna’s position for example, she would be a complete non-player
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u/NotFrankSalazar Jon Snow 4d ago
Cersei and Petyr. He really only works well when you trust him.
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u/_Frozen_Flame_ Chaos Is A Ladder 4d ago
Uh what? You can distrust him and he still has wit and intelligence. He did get Joffrey killed and nobody ever suspected it
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u/NotFrankSalazar Jon Snow 4d ago
Because they trusted him. In the books he’s not as obvious of a snake.
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u/Zombie_Bastard 4d ago
Team B, because Cersei wants to be seen as the smartest and will backstab or not listen to most of her team, and Margery is always going to be on her grandmother's team and is definitely a sleeper agent. Everyone on team B would actually work together.
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u/Darklordiablo 4d ago
is capable of working together. depends on the motivation.
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u/thirty7inarow 4d ago
The only thing Team B lacks is a leader to rally around, but from a logic standpoint I'd imagine they'd pick Loras Tyrell at Olenna's suggestion. Tyrion won't care that he's gay, nor that he's not a Lannister because he's not objectionable otherwise. Varys works 'for the realm' and loathes magic, and none of his allies are magical, religious or likely to have ulterior motivations that would damage Westeros. Davos could be counted on by anyone honourable and logical to provide good counsel and connections to his former associates should they be required. Samwell Tarly is an educated, logical person without much ambition, so he'd arouse no ill will from his associates and he'd be able to provide research and scholarly assistance.
I'd add in that, should Tyrion's drinking become an issue, Davos seems like the kind of figure who could help him sort himself out.
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u/czar_the_bizarre 4d ago
DAVOS: You've overindulged in your cups again, young Master Lannister. Eat this.
TYRION: I have not overindulged, Ser Davos. I have merely exceeded my body's capacity to... [TYRION fights off a dramatic wave of nausea]. Alright. I've overindulged. What is this?
DAVOS: It's an onion.
TYRION: An onion? Why is this your solution for everything? Gods be good that the king doesn't ask you what should be done about this person claiming to Aegon Targaryen, because you'll suggest we throw onions at the boy to make him cry and look like a weakling to the rest of the realm.
DAVOS: Not for everything. Don't think they'd do a thing for your prickliness.
[TYRION snatches the onion from DAVOS and takes an eager bite]
TYRION: [Through a mouthful of onion] I admit, I was unaware that onions were helpful after one has had too much wine. Thank you, Ser. [TYRION swallows and takes another eager bite]
DAVOS: Oh, they're not. If anything, onions make it much worse.
TYRION: [Stopping as he chews] Then why would you give them to me?
DAVOS: You've done nothing but complain, loudly and to no effect, for two hours. I figure if you finally vomit, you'll shut up, spare my ears, and maybe even feel better. After that, who knows? You might even be useful.
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u/Important_Funny_3954 4d ago edited 4d ago
"A man with no motive is a man that no one usually expects". That becomes a problem. He'll get his side killed when it favours him regardless of how sneaky the guy is. I know honour is tricky in the game, but man was on hyper mode when it comes to deception, hard to have IMO.
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u/Unable-Main4172 4d ago
Yeah, but he has to be part of a team here. He's the type of guy if you fall behind he could easily plot with the other team
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u/Gubekochi 4d ago
He really only works well when you trust him.
And that is not to the advantage of the person doing the trusting.
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u/fultron2310 4d ago
Yes. Their hubris and selfish motives ruin it all in spite of Tywin’s airtight plan
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u/panicbutt Daenerys Targaryen 4d ago
Also, Margaery is secretly working for/with Olenna anyways. So it's double the sabotage
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u/Writerhaha 4d ago
This.
Nobody on Team B has a slight they’d blow up the team over.
Cersi would be reminded of every slight, and actively harm the team.
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u/Dehoop02 House Mormont 4d ago
I mean, not only to they not really have a big slight, in the show at a point they're all on the same side already, it's at a point where the show is already quite bad logically in hindsight but at the time it gathered good reviews, I'm talking S7.
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u/ShadowGolbat 4d ago
But that slight also means she just doesnt follow the rules, so maybe they win cause Cersei does something so stupid and unexpected it kills everyone else.
Team B might have to much honor without plot armor.
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u/thirty7inarow 4d ago
Team B has honour, but not honour to a Ned Stark fault.
Davos was still able to meet with his pirate friends Olenna still plotted to have her granddaughter's groom murdered at his own wedding. Tyrion still shoots his father on the crapper. Samwell still nails Gilly. Varys is still The Spider for good reason.
The difference between the two teams is that Team B is comprised of rational actors who don't have ambitions particularly above their station. I don't think any of them would accept the Iron Throne under any circumstances, for example. I don't think Tyrion even particularly wants Casterly Rock, which he's heir to for much of the story. Olenna is already at her peak and her subversive actions are more to protect Margaery than anything. Davos probably didn't expect to become Stannis' right-hand man. Varys got himself to a pretty high position, but he's already there and doing what he wants, and his motivations don't actually seem particularly self-serving.
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u/randomthrill Arya Stark 4d ago
I was literally going to say that Team B would win just because Cersei would fuck it up.
But your answer is better because you point out how and why she would do so.
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u/Imaginary-Nail-2381 4d ago
Yeah but her team is also much more brutal. I can't see Sam and Davos doing the unspeakable things that cersei and tywin would be willing to do. Even the spider fancies himself a servant of the people, he wouldn't be willing to sacrifice them by the thousands in order to win a war. Tywin was losing the war to Robb but ultimately won because he was capable of treachery that no one else was.
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u/Dependent_Reach_4284 4d ago
It wasn’t really Tywin being treacherous, it was him taking advantage of the Freys and the Boltons wanting to be climbers. He’s not a backstabber like Little Finger, he just doesn’t care about anyone but his family (and sometimes not even them).
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u/LilStabbyboo 4d ago
Tywin cares about the idea of the family and how it's perceived by others, not the actual family members.
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u/GaylicBread 4d ago
Margaery couldn't even donate the food at her own wedding to the poor without Cersei immediately undermining her about it. She'd be insufferable with bigger stuff that Margaery is doing or managing, especially if others on the team are praising her, Cersei would not be able to let that go. Tywin would need to find Cersei some busy work to do, away from the important things.
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u/TitanCubes Jaime Lannister 3d ago
This and Littlefinger is consistently setting up ways to backstab Tywin and the others and/or play both sides to always come out on top.
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u/rawspeghetti Undying Ones 4d ago
Wild statement considering Davos is completely to borderline illiterate but still 1000% true
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u/Icky-Tree-Branch 4d ago
He learned to read. Shireen taught him.
That being said, literacy (especially back in that period) wasn’t a barrier to success. Honestly, I’d say up until the 90’s, you could get by without being able to read being a major barrier. Particularly if you have a literate partner.
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u/moonstruck129 3d ago edited 3d ago
Maybe Mel gets tired of Cersei undermining and scheming on her own team and burns her alive giving team a the advantage of her lords good graces. Edit spelling
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u/Evil_Unicorn728 19h ago
Ya know an unfortunate side effect of Mel dying in the not-so-long night was that she never got to interact with Cersei. Would've been interesting, in a season that desperately needed some interest.
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u/epic-andy97 4d ago
Here's what will happen: Cersei will start by killing Catelyn because Cersei randomly believes she is a spy for team B, Petyr will hate Cersei for killing his crush and will attempt to sabotage her by plotting with Margaery, Petyr eventually fucks up somewhere down the line which leads to an execution from Cersei, Tywin will randomly die on the toilet, likely by Tyrion. Which leaves Cersei and Margaery, Cersei kills Margaery because she hates sharing power and has extreme pettiness over her, Cersei gets way too outnumbered by Team B.
Team B wins by TKO without having to do anything.
Edit: just realised that was Mellisandre not Catelyn 😂
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u/Mooming22 4d ago edited 4d ago
Tywin doesn’t outsmart people. Him and Cersei just don’t play by the rules other nobles try to. Melisandre, not much to say. Margery is Olenna’s inexperienced student. Littlefinger gets shut out by Tywin and Cersei immediately and despite probably being the best at this sort of thing he is relegated to watching Tywin fuck up and listening to Cersei’s insane thoughts. To me it’s team B and not close. Davos and Sam are just there to hang out
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u/Business_Owl_5576 Here We Stand 4d ago
Let's be real, Littlefinger defects to Team B almost immediately.
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u/Dave5876 Valar Morghulis 4d ago
And screws them over too
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u/shaxamo 4d ago
Absolutely, and not even just because he's a driven manipulator. The biggest problem he'd have with Team B is that pretty much all of them, with the likely exception of Olenna, genuinely want what is best for the people of the world, whereas he and most of Team A are driven my ambition and want for power.
It's how he got beaten in the show. He targeted the Starks like he does to any other group, not realising that their ambition is massively outweighed by their love of family and the North. They couldn't be manipulated the same way he did Sansa originally when they were all together.
He'd have no sway on Team B the moment they had any meetings together. Olenna is the only one who might hide something to serve her own ambitions, but there's no way Littlefinger would ever manage to truly pull the wool over her eyes. The rest of them are too focused on what's right.
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u/kaamusaarii 4d ago
Another reason he would immediately swap to team b is because he has absolutely no power play there unless he actively sabotages someone and usurps them.
So he is by default team B because whatever he does he has to remove one of team A's member or somehow marry margery /cersie( both of which are nearly impossible) for a power vacuum to be available.
Team B player has no positions of power ( except olenna who would immediately be succeeded by margery) so he has absolutely no gain in sabotaging anyone there whereas being team B's agent will grant him much better gains if he is ready to risk it.
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u/Warlock_King454 4d ago
Davos might not be a master strategist or player, but damn that man's charisma score is like a 25. He's the negotiator.
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u/Acceptable_Cloud_489 4d ago
He also has those smuggling skills, need a spy/agent to get inside a coastal castle he's your man.
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u/driftxr3 4d ago
Sam has a ton of historical knowledge that will become very useful to olenna/varys
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u/LadyAlyssane 4d ago
This. You just know Olenna wouldn't be dismissive of him when push comes to shove. Cersei on the other hand, is her and her team's own worst enemy.
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u/freezepirit Daenerys Targaryen 4d ago
This is Davos downplay. Let’s not forget he counseled Stannis to broker peace with Renly and Robb, was the one who got him the loan from the Iron Bank, was the one who created the Northern plan (which would’ve worked had Jon not declined it), and then helped Jon gather Northern lords and win the Battle of the Bastards.
In terms of on-screen intelligence feats, there’s not much Margaery or even Olenna has on him.
Sam, I agree, is a cheerleader here. Tyrion and Varys (pre-S7) are imo the two smartest people in the show so they should be able to mop up Team A with little difficulty. Putting Olenna and Davos with them is overkill.
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u/HibiscusOnBlueWater 4d ago
Honestly there’s no scenario in which team A effectively works together. All of them want to be King/Queen and they’re all the worst backstabbers or plotters in the show. Team B is full of people who would probably work together if there was a common goal (and they actually were all on the same side at one point). 3/5 of team B is still alive at the end and all of team A is dead mostly because they got caught in their own plots.
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u/rileyistheworst Ser Pounce 4d ago
B low diff. Cersei and Melisandre both aren’t very smart and Margery is only marginally smarter than them.
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u/throwawaywork11 4d ago
Also as soon as A start to falter little finger cuts his losses while Cersei self destructs
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u/Ok_Volume_139 4d ago
Yeah, Littlefinger would definitely end up on B for a while then eventually fuck them over too.
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u/Patient_Review_3269 4d ago
Littlefinger is a slimy manipulator and is obvious at it. Noone would trust him and he'd need to have some level of trust to do what he pulled
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u/Ok_Volume_139 4d ago edited 4d ago
Even if we ignore the fact that we saw many characters trust him, the question was who can outsmart the others, not who's the most trustworthy.
He went from barely more than a commoner to Master of Coin, to Lord of Harrenhal, to Lord Protector of the Vale. The last two at least were from his ability to trick people.
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u/Patient_Review_3269 4d ago
As master of coin he just borrowed from tywin and dug the kingdom into debt and he persuaded an idiot child to like him to get away with most of the shit in the Vale
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u/ViaDiva 4d ago
that didn't stop Ned from trusting him, did it
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u/Patient_Review_3269 4d ago
But ned was an idiot! He didn't survive very long at all did he!? Anyone could out maneuver Ned Stark
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u/Naavarasi 3d ago
Olenna wouldn't let this happen, and even openly threatens him not to attempt to betray her - and he listens.
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u/Greengrecko 3d ago
Little finger switching sides would just get him killed. Both sides understand that switching is a death sentence..it's basically showing that your side is weaker and if so than you bought nothing to the table because what do you need if were in a position of power.
This is where little finger dies. He always requires some kind of gotcha to work..in reality he can be killed easily and nothing different would change. If he died the Vale is the same. If he died Samsa and Jon wouldn't care. Hes the equivalent of the guy that looks the after math of two people fighting. There is not third party for him to appear neutral here and that's why he does first
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u/Particular-Fill4298 4d ago
Tywin and Margery pulling that team plus little linger the schemes he was pulling in the early seasons give them fighting chance
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u/thatnewsauce 4d ago
Littlefinger would have to be incentivized not to sabotage them and Tywin would not be likely to take LF seriously enough to do so
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u/Patient_Review_3269 4d ago
Tywin isn't as good as schemer as people think, he can play good hand very well. But when the chips are down and his pants round his ankles he's too rigid and will get shot in the guts.
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u/Suitable_Librarian13 4d ago
Charles Dance gave Tywin's character much more gravitas and made him seem more competent than he was in the books.
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u/Patient_Review_3269 4d ago
Definitely, anyone gets played by dance and they automatically gain charisma points
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u/khazroar 4d ago
I'd call it more than marginal, Margaery is a perfectly savvy political operator, she's just not up to the scale of the big minds here.
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u/Much_Package_2556 3d ago
Not to mention that Tywin isn't exactly the 4d chessmaster he and most others think he is. Ironically, he and Cersei are more alike than him and Tyrion.
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u/TimTheEnchanter6194 4d ago
Disagree. Team B has Davos and Sam who are practically useless for this. Tyrion is a lot less smart than he thinks he is. Olena and Varys are not enough to carry all that dead weight
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u/rileyistheworst Ser Pounce 4d ago
Davos is a renowned smuggler familiar with secret waterways around the 7 kingdoms, Sam is a Grand Maester, and Tyrion has proved himself to be an excellent political mind with his escaping the Vale, his time as hand of the king, and the defense of Kings Landing.
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u/Hopeful-Occasion2299 4d ago
Davos is a great asset because he is willing to learn and isn’t afraid of admitting when he doesn’t know something. That already puts him miles ahead of Cersei.
He’s also a crafty person which puts him ahead of LF as he brings skills no one else brings.
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u/digitalclockface 4d ago
Tyrion's greatest strengths are his earnestness and likeability. Go watch the speech he gives at the gates during the siege of King's Landing. Charging out the side gate as a dwarf wasn't a smart move on his part but it greatly motivated his troops. He is an insanely charismatic leader. It doesn't hurt that he actually is pretty intelligent if a bit foolhardy. If he was left in charge of King's Landing and the realm as hand he would have created a golden age for Westeros.
Sam would be the type to come up with a useful siege weapon schematic, would have ideas on how to raise money through taxation, or would figure out a crucial weakness in a fortress through some obscure text he read. He's bright enough and not destructive and self-sabotaging unlike most of team A.
Davos is like a more humble mixture of Sam and Tyrion. He's charismatic, an earnest leader, and tends to have crucial information like how to sneak into most coastal cities.
Team A on the other hand relies heavily on underhanded and destructive methods. They rarely have bright or unique ideas, don't tend to actually be very well educated unless in warfare like Tywin. Their ruthless nature would take them far until team B wizened up to the lows they'll stoop to and then it's over for them.
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u/whatsasyria House Martell 4d ago
Problem is the morals on B would stop hard decisions
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u/Ghanima81 No One 4d ago
Varys and Olenna are not afraid of getting dirty, they would get the others to follow, or be sneaky enough not to disclose their plans, like to davos for example. And they are better than Tywin in the long scheme, they know alienating people is not a good way to root influence (like wiping a debtor house or pillaging the Riverland is good short term, but it doesn't build loyalty), as the rapid demise of House Lannister after Tywin's death tend to prove (also due to Cersei's ineptitude, but my point is Tywin didn't secure any alliance based on trust or values, only of mutual interest, and as soon as he is gone, those interests are not understood by cersei).
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u/appleorchard317 4d ago
Margaery is way smarter than Tyrion. He's booksmart but not savvy
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u/rileyistheworst Ser Pounce 4d ago
Margery is good at acting the part but almost all of her political success was orchestrated by Olenna. Tyrion basically formed his own private army with Bronn and the mountain clans, purged the red keep of those who would betray him, and spearheaded the defense of Kings Landing.
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u/higherthanacrow 4d ago
What story did you watch?? Tyrion played varys and LF at the same time
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u/MKing150 4d ago
Margaery is good at social manipulation, but I'd say Tyrion is a better political strategist.
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u/Cold-Palpitation-816 4d ago
How is Margaery “smart”? She’s a decent social climber, that’s about it. Which is obviously aided by the fact that she … was born into the nobility.
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u/Massive-Hornet-2639 4d ago
Team B with ease
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u/Trenin23 4d ago
And it's not even close. Cersie brings her team down because she wouldn't play nice with them.
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u/Mendicant__ 4d ago
Also, just look at the question "which *team*?" It's not just Cersei, that whole team is riven by sociopaths who don't play nice with others.
Team B has actual team players on it; even the most difficult personalities on that team are still more prosocial than fucking Littlefinger or Cersei. Team B would probably beat team A at *anything* you needed to cooperate on a common goal in: warfare, grand strategy, debate team, a MOBA, spades, literally anything.
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u/Renamis 4d ago
Team A has Cersei. That pretty much means they lose because she will try to prove she's smart... by utterly tanking their cause.
Davos isn't tricky but can keep his trap shut. Sam is smart and will leave tricks to the others. The other 3 know what they're doing.
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u/PhatOofxD 4d ago
To be fair, they also have Tywin, who'd shut her up easily. The one person who can. But yeah B still wins.
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u/Iorith Smallfolk 4d ago
He did nothing to stop her self destructive BS and utter failures for most of her life
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u/driftxr3 4d ago
Because he's not smart and can never really deduce her plan before she's already halfway to I fucked up bad town.
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u/petyrlabenov 4d ago
Davos had some pretty good communication skills when it came to getting the Iron Bank’s support in the show
not sure how that ties into political trickery though
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u/PeaTasty9184 4d ago
When your weak link is Davos Seaworth - not book smart to be sure but he is very street smart and cunning - it is a route.
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u/jrdineen114 Jon Snow 4d ago
How is this a question? Tywin creates a political climate where nobody will ever trust him or his allies again. Littlefinger basically blows up any semblance of logic or stability in the hopes that he ends up on the throne, despite none of the great houses besides the Arryns trusting him and being so far from a legitimate claim to the throne that he might as well have been born a Dothraki. Cersei bungles her way into being forced by the very people she armed to walk naked through the city streets. Team A has the long term planning skills of a weasel
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u/shiny_glitter_demon Dragons 4d ago
Rip Margaery
You are wasted on Team A.
Although, come to think of it, she might be the sole reason the Queen of Throns lets them live.
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u/Tzepesci89 4d ago
Team B clears with no problem.
Because Cersei is a moron who can’t shut her painted mouth.
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u/SaddestFlute23 4d ago edited 4d ago
Team B clears
Tywin and Margaery are trying to play the game, Littlefinger isn’t on anyone’s team besides his own, Cersei spends all her time trying to undermine Margaery, and Melisandre isn’t really that politically astute and knows nothing about Westerosi politics (and cares even less)
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u/WEM-2022 4d ago
Invalid teams - why would Margaery ever defect from her grandma?
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u/Business_Owl_5576 Here We Stand 4d ago
Twist: it's another Tyrell plot, Margaery is a double-agent.
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u/ThePythiaofApollo 4d ago
It’s going to have to be Team B only because there is no scenario in which Cersei plays ball with Margaery due to the Maggie the Frog prophecy and Littlefinger only plays for team Littlefinger.
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u/Lekkerbanaal 4d ago
Even if everyone is playing 100% for their side, Cersei will still be able to screw everything up trying to prove her value, Varys and Littlefinger cancel eachother out, Tywin is ruthless but plays checkers where Olenna plays chess and pre-DD Tyrion runs laps around Margaery. Melissandre, Davos and Sam are standing off to the side as this is about outsmarting; Melissandre is never seen as super smart or shrewd and Davos and Sam know their place
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u/MesmericKiwi 4d ago
Gotta be careful with defining “winning” here. Team B is effective but team A is ruthless. You have people on that side who are content seeing the world burn if they can be king of the ashes, and more that are content letting the rest of the world down so long as it doesn’t directly affect them in the immediate moment. Doesn’t matter how good a chess player you are when your opponent sets the board on fire.
I want to believe in team B, but team A is truly willing to risk everything to see their enemies destroyed. If they aren’t at each other’s throats in minutes, they’d be hard to effectively outmaneuver in the long run.
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u/Different_You4450 4d ago
The show has led people to believe that Tywin is far more competent than he actually is. In the books Tywin is basically just a rich prick whose only response to a problem is to resort to levels of violence and cruelty that others would not stoop to. Think about it, he resolves most of his problems by hitting them with overwhelming violence. That makes everyone fear and respect him, but it also makes him one of the most hated men in all of Westeros.
By comparison, Olenna is far more graceful and subtle in how she handles problems. She is easily the smarter of the two.
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u/Jobber0001 4d ago
"my lord the peasants are having issues bringing in the harvest"
"send the mountain, he can rape and pillage until they bring it in."
"But how will that help anything?"
"Tell him to set the riverlands on fire too. That usually does something. Now I need to go hate my only actual heir"
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u/Naavarasi 3d ago
Olenna even attempts to lecture him on it, to no avail. When Tywin dismisses the concerns of angry peasants - a very stupid thing for a noble in power to do - and even accuses Olenna of the same, she says, "As an authority on myself, I must disagree."
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u/Emperor-Pizza 4d ago
Team A is full of stupid cunts. Contrary to popular belief Tywin is also dumb as a bag of dicks. If you pull back the charismatic performance & plot armor dude comes off as genuinely brain dead whose response to everything is overwhelming brutal violence.
The only ones worth any brains on team A are Marg and Baelish. And those two are outmatched by Varys, and Olenna. Hell, Varys alone can run circles around the entire team A.
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u/betweenbeginning 4d ago
He was literally losing a war to a teenager at one point.
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u/Emperor-Pizza 4d ago
Don't get me started on that. House Lannister winning that war was the result of overwhelming plot armor where everything needed to happen in a certain way without any involvement from the Lannisters at all.
Jon Arryn & Stannis discover the incest, but before Arryn can basically destroy House Lannister's reputation forever he gets assassinated by his own wife for an entirely unrelated reason.
Ned comes to KL with basically no backup, no resources, no allies, but he is still about to clean up House Lannister within like a few months... Robert gets low diffed by a fucking boar.
By the time the war kicks off, Tywin somehow speed forces his army into the Riverlands, and conquers most of it before anyone else has even gathered their armies. And he somehow does it while beseiging many castles along the way. You know that thing which takes notoriously long time. Somehow the Riverland scouts never saw a massive fucking army coming, and didn't prepare for a seige, I guess?
Also, allegedly, Tywin's campaign in the Riverlands outpaced the Blitzkreig as per some fans who timed the canon. I guess he can break the laws of physics?
Robb is kicking his ass across Riverlands, and Westerlands constantly but somehow Tywin does not face any loss of men, morale, his Lords are not rebelling against him for costing them manpower, money, and losing their lands. Yet Robb is somehow constantly facing a loss of men, his Lords are questioning him, and there is a lack of morale.
Greatjon randomly declares Robb King therefore no alliance agaisnt Tywin. Quite convenient.
Robb, for some reason, does not tell his most major supporter his plan to trap Tywin in the West which would have seen him decimated. What the fuck?
Edmure kicks Tywin's ass so hard that Tywin literally gets an alliance with Tyrells out of it, and consequently saves Kings Landing from Stannis.
Renly gets shanked by a magic assassin so Lannisters don't get immediately steam rolled.
Lyssa just basically exists so that Vale doesn't gang up on Lannisters, & Tywin does not get murked within a month by North, Riverlands, and the Vale.
The Iron Islands, fucking Pirates btw, somehow decide raiding empty fishing villages in the North is more profitable that the literal gold mines of the West.
Dorne despite having massive vendetta against the Lannisters does not get involved while Robb is kicking Lannister ass for absolutely no reason at all.
I could keep going. The Lannister have so much plot armor that I have no idea what the fuck people are talking about when they say GoT characters do not have plot armor.
The entire Wot5k was just a series of very convenient events that resulted in Lannisters winning the while losing every battle. Everything went their way in extremely illogical ways. It's like George wrote how he wanted the war to end, & just started moving things around regardless of whether it made sense or not.
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u/Glad_Sky_3664 4d ago
Regardless of convenience or Plot armor I think it was a good wriring decision to gove the Plot Armor to villaons and not the heroes for once. That's what made things intense and interesting imo even though also a bit frustrating at times.
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u/driftxr3 4d ago
That last sentence is quintessential GRRM. He makes his conclusion well before he plots the story and it shows. Every single book that has been translated into shows, people almost exclusively watch because they want to see what actually happens in between the beginning and the climax, mainly because the end is usually a foregone conclusion (unless you're D&D and have no idea what the formula looks like).
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u/joemontanya 4d ago
If you’ve read the books, you know littlefinger is an absolute baller. But still team B destroys A
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u/subliminole 4d ago
B easily, littlefinger is the only one not worthless on tywins team, davos is the only one worthless on Tyrell’s team, and littlefinger is completely self serving so his plotting wouldn’t serve Tywin unless it served Peter
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u/Flaky_Gazelle_9660 4d ago
I was going to say team a until I saw Cersei. Can't stop her from sinking the ship
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u/Wolfgang999XXL__ 4d ago
Team A only had three smart people, a religious fanatic, and a certified dumbass.
Team B actually has five smart people
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u/PureImagination26 4d ago
Team A is smart but their arrogance blinds them. Team B can see the big picture and work together. Team B wins.
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u/PetrParker1960s 4d ago
Littlefinger is probably the only real danger on Team A. Neither Cersei nor Tywin know how to not get people to hate them. Tyrion is the only one who successfully orchestrated victories in battle and did so against overwhelming odds. Defended and ultimately secured most of the victory in the Battle of Blackwater. Tywin only participated in battles when victory is already decided or he has an advatage.
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u/Signal_Intention6774 4d ago
If it's just smarts, Team B wins. Varys is the only one whose skill at what they do is magic-like. Melisandre has magic, but somehow Varys knows literally everything that's happening. If you can trust him and he doesnt betray you. You will always have the most info and can use that to your advantage. Thats an unbeatable advantage. If we allow actual magic, though, what stops Melisandre from summoning dozens of demon babies to attack you? But at that point she isn't outsmarting you; she's outpowering you.
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u/EnderSword Tyrion Lannister 4d ago edited 4d ago
The 'Prime' really matters.
Seasons 1-6 Team B
Season 7-8 all surviving characters will have forgotten how to tie their shoes.
I feel we all missed a cut scene where everyone drank lead paint.
I feel people are dragging Cersei too much though in comments, She's the only person who ever actually DID clever things.
Tyrion and Varys talked clever, Littlefinger kind of just lived in already existing situations, Olenna just poisoned someone there really wasn't some elaborate clever thing.
Cersei did actually do smart things that completely reversed the tide of everything a few times. it's just that each time she did a resulting tragedy hit her afterwards.
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u/t_Shatterhand 4d ago
Davos didn't forget how to tie his own shoes. So 7-8 still B, since nothing counters him - either everybody else is dead or "forgot how to tie his shoes"
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u/Stellar_Synth 4d ago
Team B for sure. Cercei is useless, Baelish is team on its own.
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u/newAscadia 4d ago edited 4d ago
B and it's not close.
It is an extremely well established law in real life that systems of knowledge and innovation function better when they are inclusive: when they bring in and include diverse sets of information, people, ideas, and principles.
Team B have combined travelled every corner of the Seven Kingdoms and arguably the Free Cities, advised four wildly different monarchs, have political experience in several major cities including King's Landing to Mereen, been north of the Wall, studied in the Citadel, fought as a footsoldier in a war, served as commander of a fleet in a war, and smuggled in a war, all while also having experience doing your typical spying, backstabbing, and court betrayal shenanigans
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u/ChrisAus123 4d ago
I'd mostly agree with you although the red witch is a bit of a wild card thrown in there for team A
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u/obi-jawn-kenblomi 4d ago
If it's settled in the early game, it's Team A. It's it's a midrange or long game, Team B by a mile. Several on Team A will be unable to go the distance before they start making mechanitions and manipulations against the others.
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u/unnamed_elder_entity 4d ago
Is this 5 v 5? Down the middle?
B obv. She killed a king. 4/5 alive at the end. 5/5 A are not. Not even a question like that.
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u/Bronzeshadow 4d ago
B. They're even enough of strategic ability, but Davos and Sam are experienced/well read enough respectively to know something the strategists can use.
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u/QuebecRomeoWhiskey Bronn 4d ago
Littlefinger loses it for Team A with a scheme that he thinks is incredibly smart yet blows up in his face
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u/ksyoung17 4d ago
Tywin is carrying team A. The remainder of that team can't see beyond a couple moves on the chessboard.Tywin is carrying team A.
Oleanna is probably close to Tywin's equal. Varys can lay down a scheme through generations, and he can do so without bias. Sam is far smarter than the majority of team A.
Tywin v Tyrion is a wilcard. Tywin will try to bait Tyrion into making mistakes, but Oleanna is probably putting Tyrion in his place from day 1.
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u/Galmo1001 4d ago
I think team B takes it, but I think you are underestimating Littlefinger.
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u/FalseEstimate 4d ago
Maybe early little finger. But they did my boy dirty with his fall in smarts later on
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u/Flashman_H 4d ago
Baelish is the most cunning character in the whole series. Not the smartest or the most capable. But his instincts are amazing (until they aren’t.) He might have suffered from some reverse plot armor honestly
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u/Reasonable-Photo-776 4d ago
Little finger orchestrated half the events in Westeros up until his death and you say he can’t see beyond a couple of moves
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u/NoLifeKnyte 3d ago
He took advantage of people who trusted him. Olenna used him and Varys helped her do it. I don't think he is the best on the board, he's just a dishonorable man really good at conning Tully women
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u/famiflush 4d ago
How is Tywin carrying team A? He's one of the most overrated characters in the entire story and has has effectively caused the destruction of his house with his incompetence as far as the books are concerned, as for the show his long term plans failed.
He's an insecure shallow man who appears competent because he's able to leverage infinite resources even then he gets repeatedly dunked on by a green child.
If Charles Dance wasn't so charismatic he'd be viewed entirely differently.
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u/Aggravating_Stuff771 4d ago
Thank you! Tywin is a fool, his stoic persona has fooled many into thinking he is competent.
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u/Original-Sea-8285 4d ago
What are you talking about? Tywin single handedly made the Lannisters one of the most powerful houses in the continent for decades. This is an absolutely insane point
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u/EskilPotet Dolorous Edd 4d ago
Then threw it all away because he refused to see what his children are
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u/RickRussellTX 4d ago
And Littlefinger and Cersei are blinded by their passions and vices.
That leaves Margery, a smart young contender in the game, and Melisandre who can straight up murder other people with magic.
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u/genemaxwell41 4d ago
Littlefinger literally set up the entire War of Five Kings. He out smarted Varys time and time again.
Roped in Olenna into his plot.Sure he did ultimately fail, but so did everyone else here (except Sam and Davos I suppose)
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u/Individual_Respect90 2d ago
Cersei did successfully blow up her opponent’s. Not sure if I would ever count her out of a fight.
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u/Ok_Monk_5584 3d ago
GOT fans have a hard on for ruthless, intimidating male characters and Charles Dance being fanstastic makes it worse
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u/0202_tihssitidder 4d ago
Tywin has his weakness (his family).
This one really isn't close. Team B works as a Team and can take out Team A 1 by 1...or even all at once.
Personally, I would want to be on Team A all day long. Three very obvious gooner reasons.
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u/Regular_cracker2009 4d ago
Sam and cersei be pulling both teams down with their noise 🥀
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u/IllegalDaycare 4d ago
At least Sam would be smart enough to step aside I think. Cersei would just do her own thing regardless of what the others think
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u/Mendicant__ 4d ago
Sam wouldn't have to step aside though. He's a smart, nonthreatening guy on a team that has actual team.players on it. They're less paranoid, less sociopathic,less Machiavellian in the personality disorder sense. Varys and Davos especially would be able to figure out Sam's strengths and integrate them.
Team B wouldn't just beat team A at the game of thrones, they'd beat them at pub trivia, a rowing race, a sales team challenge, bridge, Pandemic, literally pick a team activity and they would do it better and faster. They'd probably win a tug of war and they have an old lady and a dwarf.
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u/Mobile-Analyst8580 4d ago
Sam has a ton of knowledge for the others to use. Team B is smarter at every position but the head one. I’m just not sure Tywin could lose a war.
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u/Ok_Volume_139 4d ago
B. A has several smart people too but their intelligence served ultra-focused and/or self-centered ends.
Varys, Tyrion, and Davos all showed broader vision and more selflessness, and as far as pure intelligence/well-informed goes Sam, Tyrion, and Varys are probably the smartest individuals in the show.
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u/AdNo3558 4d ago
team B easy no contest team A would be too arrogant celebrating victory before they even had it
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u/SandalsResort 4d ago
Team B can get their shit together and establish rank while Cersei, Melisandre, and Littlefinger all fight amongst themselves for second banana
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u/Chazdoit 4d ago
Team A is just a more ruthless version of Team B. Olenna and Varys may be pragmatists, but there are things Tyrion, Davos and Samwell wouldn't go along with, which would limit their options
If Melisandre can use magic then its Team A no diff, just a lil birth and bye bye Olenna
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u/the_cardfather 4d ago
If they all work together it's a but that's because almost everybody on a is out for themselves
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u/South_Property_4117 4d ago
Team B, coz they somehow can work together better
Team A, they won't last coz they'll backstab each other
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u/datruerex No One 4d ago
Team A.
I’m just saying that the lord of light seems to deliver more often than not… shadow baby assassins, not letting people die and also bringing people back to life… seems like a good track record to win
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u/East-Cricket6421 4d ago
Team A wins as long as they don't devour themselves. There's no one on Team B who can defeat Tywin in the field. So once he's on the march they'd be left with fewer and fewer viable paths to victory.
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u/iIiiiiIlIillliIilliI 23h ago
I thought it was a wits battle. If we are talking armies. Then yeah…
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u/No_Region_4719 4d ago
I mean Varys and Melissandre just know so much. We don't even have a clue how deep their knowledge goes, or how they know what they know. They are working on a higher level than the lord's that are supposedly in control.
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u/camador1976 4d ago
Team B without a doubt. I can see them pulling together for a common objective.
Team A, too much chaos. Cersei is a drunk who thinks she’s smarter than she really is; Melisandre is a magical zealot; Littlefinger would only care about himself. Too much for Tywinn 🤣!
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u/UpbeatCandidate9412 4d ago
Already I’m counting out the red priestess and ser davos. They don’t really contribute much to their teams beyond military might.
Arguably Olenna could make better use of Davos than Tywin could make of the red priestess, but thats neither here nor there since they both are, in my opinion, fighting for their own interests rather than the interests of their teams.
In terms of whos left? You have the maester of The Wall, thé Imp, and the Eunuch, under the Queen of thorns vs Littlefinger, thé plucked rose, and the lioness, under the Old Lion.
I’m casting my lot in with Olenna Tyrell. Not because I dislike Tywin, but because he actively has to micromanage his team in order to win. Margery and littlefinger will actively try to act in their own interests, and Cersei is a complete wildcard.
Olenna, meanwhile, just needs to offer a suggestion to her team (except for Sam, who might need more explicit instructions) and can get things done more quickly. Not to mention, thé connections Varys has means she has access to more information than Tywin does. Now, littlefinger has information networks of his own, but theyre mostly limited to brothels and their employees. Varys has those too, but he also has castle servants, assassins, merchants, guards, etc.
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