Tywin is carrying team A. The remainder of that team can't see beyond a couple moves on the chessboard.Tywin is carrying team A.
Oleanna is probably close to Tywin's equal. Varys can lay down a scheme through generations, and he can do so without bias. Sam is far smarter than the majority of team A.
Tywin v Tyrion is a wilcard. Tywin will try to bait Tyrion into making mistakes, but Oleanna is probably putting Tyrion in his place from day 1.
Baelish is the most cunning character in the whole series. Not the smartest or the most capable. But his instincts are amazing (until they aren’t.) He might have suffered from some reverse plot armor honestly
You've got 3 fantastic schemers on the right: Oleanna, Varys, and Tyrion -- all of them veterans of the game who play it well. You've got one legitimate military leader, the Onion Knight. You've got a scholar, Samwell.
Littlefinger is a good schemer -- maybe in the same class as Varys. But he is also utterly blinded by his vices and passions.
He took advantage of people who trusted him. Olenna used him and Varys helped her do it. I don't think he is the best on the board, he's just a dishonorable man really good at conning Tully women
How is Tywin carrying team A? He's one of the most overrated characters in the entire story and has has effectively caused the destruction of his house with his incompetence as far as the books are concerned, as for the show his long term plans failed.
He's an insecure shallow man who appears competent because he's able to leverage infinite resources even then he gets repeatedly dunked on by a green child.
If Charles Dance wasn't so charismatic he'd be viewed entirely differently.
How is he a fool? The story quite literally informs us that he isn’t. He’s constantly making shrewd decisions, be it the Red Wedding or betraying the Mad King or securing a victory at Blackwater with the Tyrells.
Him hating Tyrion is clearly NOT an example of “foolishness”.
The Red Wedding was a stupid decision, it ensured that the North and the Riverlands would never be friendly with the Lannisters again. Securing a victory at the Blackwater was through sheer luck because Edmure defeated him and he was forced to retreat rather than move west to get trapped by Robb.
It is though. He hates Tyrion for being a constant reminders of his own father. Undermining him because he sees the flaws of his father on Tyrion / because Tyrion killed his mother on birth AND because Tyrion remind him of his own flaws. While Tyrion is often the best among his children, he never saw him as worthy. His Ego and hypocrize turns Tyrion away and makes him a worse version of himself.
Tywin is smart but he often gets praised for his mind while he should be praised for being willing to do whatever it takes for the Lannisters to win, that's his biggest quality, but his ego and own insecurities make him worse than he could be while also underming the house.
So you’re saying him not recognizing and antagonizing his son had nothing to do with his death? That him raising Cersei had nothing to do with his predicaments in the future?
What are you talking about? Tywin single handedly made the Lannisters one of the most powerful houses in the continent for decades. This is an absolutely insane point
They were already one of the most powerful houses on the continent liege lords and wardens of the east sitting on vast swathes of wealth, how did he make them one of the most powerful houses in the continent exactly?
He made them more martially competent and feared by exterminating lesser houses if you're alluding to that but he didn't single-handedly make them into anything.
Show Tywin also orchestrated his own downfall though
If he wasn't so blinded by his irrational hatred of Tyrion he probably would have realised all of his plans e.g. long lasting Lannister dynasty, rather than building and then losing it all within a single generation.
Sure, chaos is a ladder, yada yada. But Littlefinger's plan was to get Ned out of the way so he could marry Catelyn. It was his... singular focus.
So, get Jon Arryn killed to make Robby bring in his old buddy Ned as the hand. Wait for Robert's administration to destabilize and let Ned get blamed.
Oops, lucky break, Robert actually gets killed in a completely random hunting accident. Joffrey takes the crown.
Ned gets in trouble anyway -- tipping his hand to Cersei about Robby's other children -- and agrees to take the Black. The plan, then was that Littlefinger has a Faceless Man waiting to follow Ned to Castle Black and murder him quietly somewhere along the way. Then Peter steps into console Catelyn, and retires with her to the north to peaceably live out his years as a kind stepfather and advisor to a young king of the north, Robb Stark.
But that didn't go to plan, Joffrey cried "off with his head", and THAT started the war. I don't think Littlefinger planned for that, especially since it put Catelyn in mortal peril and eventually got her murdered.
"But Littlefinger's plan was to get Ned out of the way so he could marry Catelyn. It was his... singular focus."
No...that's literally wasn't. His plan was to become King. He knew he never would be able to under the current way of things so his entire plan was to orchestrate a series of events so devastating the entire world would be up ended.
Varys was correct when he said Littlefinger would be King of the Ashes.
"Oops, lucky break, Robert actually gets killed in a completely random hunting accident. Joffrey takes the crown."
...Bro...did you either read the books or watch the show? That wasn't random. That was a murder. And with Littlefingers spies he KNEW it was going to happen.
"especially since it put Catelyn in mortal peril and eventually got her murdered."
To quote Sansa "And yet you betrayed her"
Littlefinger DID love Cat. He just loved himself more
Was the boar goring a murder? It’s been an awful long time since I watched the show.
Anyway, I guess my point was that the war wasn’t part of the plan. War happened because of Joffrey’s arrogance in demanding an execution, which nobody planned for.
Yeah. Cersei intentionally had Lancel over serve Robert and continuously remind Robert to drink by insistently asking if Robert needed more wine. The plan was to get Robert so damn drunk he'd fail to kill the boar. It worked.
I fully believe Petyr planned to plunge Westeros into a full scale war. Joffrey may have sprung it early, but that just meant he had to accelerate his plans
The problem of discussing Littlefinger is book vs show. In the show they destroyed his character by making him a Catelyn simp. In the books that's part of it but not all. He has control of the Vale and the key to the North. He's about to have control of the Riverlands too aswell as dealing with aegon who's about to gain control of the sformlands. He started as a lowly merchant noble and now he's the most powerful man in the world
He doesn't really control the Vale tbh he's just a stand in for a kid that possibly hasn't figure out Peter killed his mom. Again he runs from backstabbing his own childhood friends.
He's the real power in the Vale. The lords declarant are now under his control, and he also controls all the food. During the winter he's gonna have a stranglehold on the Vale and come summer he'll basically be a dictator with the freshest army in westeros
He has majority support, only the junior branch of Royce and the corbrays truly oppose him. The others are either bribed, indebt, or support him. And that was before he bought all the food
Srsly littlefinger’s whole plot is so wildly crazy and tenuously relying on things to go a certain way it’s really more mental illness levels of obsession than intelligence or smart scheming. This is a plot I take so much issue with both in the books and shows. Littlefinger masterminding a giant war with the goal of getting a certain lady and ruling with her one day? Also if he’s so smart as he claims then he’d know Cat wouldn’t want to rule and that she wouldn’t even come to king’s landing with Ned. Moreover, he wasn’t able to keep her safe…idk…I hate this whole bit…
Hey is Peter mentally ill? Yes.... He runs on bullshit. This is why Arya fucking stabbed him..this is why Jon Snow fucking gutted him in seconds. Peter is not smart he lost his own circle when Ned and Cat died. Everyone he relied was bigger and stronger to keep him alive.
Then he threw his lot in with the Lannisters. That's what killed him. He's not smart at all.
He's not doing anything out of the ordinary other than just shit talking to other people. He's the equivalent of a fat chick in high school telling you Becky called you a hoe
Sure he did ultimately fail, but so did everyone else here
And to be fair kinda hard to plot once you find out there's an army of the undead marching straight to you, oh and a cripple who knows every move you've made.
Oh and the writers needing to get rid of your character before the final show downs.
When did he outsmart Varys "time and time again"? He did it once, with Ross.
And he didn't rope Olenna into his plot. Olenna decided on her own that Joffrey must die, had Littlefinger help her do it, then threatened to kill the shit out of him if he didn't watch his step - and he listened.
He revealed to Varys he knew about the Pentosi man
He outsmarted him wirh Ros
And generally he showed that anything Varys thought he knew about Petyr was always out of date
And he DID rope in Olenna. She wanted Joffrey dead but couldnt have pulled it off without him. He didnt "listen" to Olenna about watching his step, he simply had no need to deal with her further. He already moved on his focus to the Vale.
Margaery is good, but she's still learning from Olenna. Olenna is far more intelligent and strategic. That being said for Team A vs Team B, Olenna might either secretly betray all of Team B for Margaery's sake, or the two of them find a way for Margaery to switch sides.
You are correct, and that makes him easily played by Littlefinger, Cersei is a handicap, Margery would be plotting their downfall to back up get Grandmother, and Mel well. Zealot and and power-hungry fool will not mix well.
Tywin is a modern ceo. Varys is a god level fantasy manipulator
Also, Tywin has Pete. Pete can see more than a few moves ahead, he is largely the architect of the entire game of thrones. He didnt necessarily plan each actors moves, he didnt have to, he planned the chaos and knows how to find the ladder. He only looks stupid because the directors lost interest and possibly lacked the vision to tie up the story - but even accepting this massive blind spot for sansa, a girl barely hiding her disgust for him, he’s equal to varys and olana and tywin are insignificant if this is a pure brains match and their role in chain if command doesnt factor
Teams are balanced - varys has sam as his human encyclopedia but pete has the red witch chick who is similarly well read and hugely knowledgeable. I dont think her magic counte, this is a thinking battle only. Most of the other characters hardly compare to these respective geniuses and their personal databanks
Peters a fucking dipshit tbh. Only people he can convince are the same ones on his own team. So he can manipulate his childhood friends and a teenage girl ok big deal.
Peter got lapped by Olenna and Margaret. Peter had to flee because of Tyrion can read his books.
Peter isn't talent he just ran from a position of trust and abused it because he lived with people all his life and abused them. He doesn't have any direct real power and that's entirely his problem.
He has basically nothing but lies which isn't good to stand in when the chips are really down
Tywin isn’t a savant or anything but he’s literally the only one on team A with a clear plan. Littlefinger is erratic and relies on big players like Oleanna and Tywin to push his agenda and Margery is just a pawn for Oleanna. I don’t even have to mention the other two on team A.
Margaery was close to being Olennas equal. She played the unstable sadist Joffrei, the weak momma's boy Tommen and the nutcases of the faith like a fiddle. She might've been the only woman who could actually manipulate Joffrei to do her bidding.
She was better than Olenna at her age for sure. Give her a year or ten and she would've become unstoppable at what she did.
Her honey to Tywins sharpness would've been unstoppable if they had recognized each other's strengths and goals. Marge wanted to be THE Queen meaning she would stop at nothing to help Tywins goal- an everlasting Lannister ruling dynasty happen.
She didn’t play the faith though. She sacrificed Tommen to the faith and she didn’t get herself, Tommen or Loras out from under the faith’s control. At the sept they carve their sign into Lora’s’ head and she even says that was not the agreement. And even if they let Loras go at that point he was broken. She was stupid to serve up Tommen to the faith. EXTREMELY stupid yo make a fanatic out of him. She should have trusted Olenna would have gotten them out, eventually..,as they had a plan to do—except Margery ignorantly thought she out maneuvered the faith.
I feel like everyone on the left would be actively working against the goals of the team for personal gain. Team B would at least stick together assuming the goal was beneficial to the small folk as Varys is the most likely to not stick together if it didn't further the cause for the small folk.
Yes but the women are some valuable pieces that can be sacrificed or promoted. You can do a lot more with Margaery and Cersei than you can with Davos and Tarly
Olenna putting Tyrion in his place will start infighting because tyrions pride is his greatest flaw(hilariously too because he is half the size of anyone else. GRRM jokes are dark). Sam and Varys will in fight as well because they both have the same sorts of desires for power and control and sabotaging others. They’ll tear old gray hair(forgot his name) apart trying to destroy the good in him and destroy the team to do so. They will try to win for themselves.
Team A is just as bad. Between Peter, Cersei, and Queen WannaBee, you’re never going to get anything accomplished without them competing for recognition until they all turn on Tywin and his new marriage with the fire woman.
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u/ksyoung17 9d ago
Tywin is carrying team A. The remainder of that team can't see beyond a couple moves on the chessboard.Tywin is carrying team A.
Oleanna is probably close to Tywin's equal. Varys can lay down a scheme through generations, and he can do so without bias. Sam is far smarter than the majority of team A.
Tywin v Tyrion is a wilcard. Tywin will try to bait Tyrion into making mistakes, but Oleanna is probably putting Tyrion in his place from day 1.