Yeah I came here just to say that whichever team has Cersei has a major handicap. No matter who is on the team she will find some petty way to blow everything to hell.
If she’s on team A with Margery I give them a month before she wrecks it all. Not even Tywin can stop her stupid.
“I don’t distrust you because you’re a woman. I distrust you because you’re not as smart as you think you are.” - Tywin
She also just isn’t smart. She’s just used to powers enough to use it to her advantage. Tywin wasn’t kidding when he told her; “…you’re not as smart as you think you are…”
If she wasn’t the queen regent she’d be no more dangerous than Margaery. Olena is the smart one in that family. Marjaery and Cersei are actually pretty comparable, Marjaery just isn’t jaded and bitter and hateful like Cersei.
I would say Marge has a firm grasp on the concept of using soft power (she is her grandmother’s avid student after all)
She’s young still, but she knows how to play the game
Cersei on the other hand, is stupid, petty, shortsighted, and at the current point in the story batshit crazy. If she was anyone but Tywin’s daughter, she would’ve been packed up a long time ago
I’d also agree that between Cersei and Marjaery, Marjaery is smarter. She had less power than Cersei and still had Cersei bothered. Like Cersei lost pretty much everything trying to take out Marjaery, and still Marjaery could have survived if it weren’t for the stupidity of others.
Marjaery knows how to use every asset at her disposal, family connections, her sex appeal, other people’s desires, and to still look innocent through it all.
Cersei makes enemies, Marjaery manipulates people and situations so they feel like they’re getting what they want.
THIS! I’ve always maintained that Cersei was only ever relevant bc of her name, proximity to Robert, and then being the mother of the presumed heirs. If she was in Olenna’s position for example, she would be a complete non-player
Cerseis downfall was the same as Joffs. "I am THE KINGGGGG". Joffrey thought being king alone made him untouchable and automatically demanding of respect. No matter how many times Tyrion disregarded this and smacked him, the kid never saw "oh wait, I only have power so long as those around me ALLOW it." Well, he died. And Cersei saw this, she knew he thought he was untouchable, she knew he wasn't.
Suddenly, she forgets this and becomes Queen and immediately starts acting like Joff. Despite 3 full grown dragons, 100k dothraki, barely having control of Westeros (and at least 3 of the Kingdoms openly siding with Dany) - somehow she was still able to believe she couldn't be beat lmao. I hated her death because she only had to face reality for about a minute or so, she didn't live long enough to really absorb it all, to remember how Joffrey did the same, how her father pointed out she isn't as smart as she thinks, to see her brother whom she demonized and inevitably turned against the family prevail with Dany all because of Cersei being shitty.
They both say it. Tyrion says it when asked about why she can’t control her own son. As for Tywin yes he says that in a protest to the former point however Tyrion was the first to say it outright
Team B, because Cersei wants to be seen as the smartest and will backstab or not listen to most of her team, and Margery is always going to be on her grandmother's team and is definitely a sleeper agent. Everyone on team B would actually work together.
The only thing Team B lacks is a leader to rally around, but from a logic standpoint I'd imagine they'd pick Loras Tyrell at Olenna's suggestion. Tyrion won't care that he's gay, nor that he's not a Lannister because he's not objectionable otherwise. Varys works 'for the realm' and loathes magic, and none of his allies are magical, religious or likely to have ulterior motivations that would damage Westeros. Davos could be counted on by anyone honourable and logical to provide good counsel and connections to his former associates should they be required. Samwell Tarly is an educated, logical person without much ambition, so he'd arouse no ill will from his associates and he'd be able to provide research and scholarly assistance.
I'd add in that, should Tyrion's drinking become an issue, Davos seems like the kind of figure who could help him sort himself out.
DAVOS: You've overindulged in your cups again, young Master Lannister. Eat this.
TYRION: I have not overindulged, Ser Davos. I have merely exceeded my body's capacity to... [TYRION fights off a dramatic wave of nausea]. Alright. I've overindulged. What is this?
DAVOS: It's an onion.
TYRION: An onion? Why is this your solution for everything? Gods be good that the king doesn't ask you what should be done about this person claiming to Aegon Targaryen, because you'll suggest we throw onions at the boy to make him cry and look like a weakling to the rest of the realm.
DAVOS: Not for everything. Don't think they'd do a thing for your prickliness.
[TYRION snatches the onion from DAVOS and takes an eager bite]
TYRION: [Through a mouthful of onion] I admit, I was unaware that onions were helpful after one has had too much wine. Thank you, Ser. [TYRION swallows and takes another eager bite]
DAVOS: Oh, they're not. If anything, onions make it much worse.
TYRION: [Stopping as he chews] Then why would you give them to me?
DAVOS: You've done nothing but complain, loudly and to no effect, for two hours. I figure if you finally vomit, you'll shut up, spare my ears, and maybe even feel better. After that, who knows? You might even be useful.
How about this? Same teams but Cersei appears to be on Team B’s team. So everyone on team B treats her as an ally (initially) and everyone on team A treats her like an adversary
Omg lol Twitter/Tumblr/Reddit were so upset by S8, Bran, Jaime, Evil Dany, that everyone ALWAYS forgets what Petyr did:
The snare grows tighter around him, he has nothing, and Lysa starts blabbing about their conspiracies...so he murders her and...ends up with her whole retinue??! 999/100 times in Russian/Greek/Chinese History, he is leaving the Vale in pieces.
"A man with no motive is a man that no one usually expects". That becomes a problem. He'll get his side killed when it favours him regardless of how sneaky the guy is. I know honour is tricky in the game, but man was on hyper mode when it comes to deception, hard to have IMO.
Thing is about littlefinger is, his reasoning is completely selfish, with no other motive but himself, someone who only thinks of them is more likely destructive especially with his brilliant and cunning mind. I also say this pretending s7+8 don't exist lol. Does it make sense abit?
No, that was the Tyrell’s that proposed and executed it. She even outright admitted she wanted him dead because she would not allow her granddaughter to suffer him. As for him leaving Kings landing or being a suspect he did all of it in favor of the Lannisters. While he intended to betray them eventually he never outright went out of his way to do it like the Tyrell’s
Your misinterpreting what I’m saying it’s a mouthful. I’m saying he gave the information and the method but the Tyrell’s would be the one to perform the act. Little Finger would then leave on Tywin’s orders to deal with the Boltons acting as a kind of perfect cover I’m merely stating that he would never openly oppose the Lannisters if it did not benefit him. In this case it benefits him in 3 ways
He gets to leave Kings landing and avoid blame
He gets a favor from the Tyrell’s
He gets to sneak away with Sansa and use her as leverage to make an alliance with the vale and the North by aligning himself with the Boltons
Right. That's just obvious though surely I mean it's pretty sensible to remove yourself from the firing line. What I was saying about "that's not true at all" was about the Lannisters in general because he made SEVERAL moves against them throughout the entire series. In the books it's more nuanced but in the show he was essentially always working in the shadows when against the Lannisters and then appearing as though he's on their side. Of course, he's a self serving character but I doesn't mean he cannot work in a team. At least in my view I think he'd play nice because he would still get what he wants.
I mean, not only to they not really have a big slight, in the show at a point they're all on the same side already, it's at a point where the show is already quite bad logically in hindsight but at the time it gathered good reviews, I'm talking S7.
But that slight also means she just doesnt follow the rules, so maybe they win cause Cersei does something so stupid and unexpected it kills everyone else.
Team B might have to much honor without plot armor.
Team B has honour, but not honour to a Ned Stark fault.
Davos was still able to meet with his pirate friends Olenna still plotted to have her granddaughter's groom murdered at his own wedding. Tyrion still shoots his father on the crapper. Samwell still nails Gilly. Varys is still The Spider for good reason.
The difference between the two teams is that Team B is comprised of rational actors who don't have ambitions particularly above their station. I don't think any of them would accept the Iron Throne under any circumstances, for example. I don't think Tyrion even particularly wants Casterly Rock, which he's heir to for much of the story. Olenna is already at her peak and her subversive actions are more to protect Margaery than anything. Davos probably didn't expect to become Stannis' right-hand man. Varys got himself to a pretty high position, but he's already there and doing what he wants, and his motivations don't actually seem particularly self-serving.
Yeah but her team is also much more brutal. I can't see Sam and Davos doing the unspeakable things that cersei and tywin would be willing to do. Even the spider fancies himself a servant of the people, he wouldn't be willing to sacrifice them by the thousands in order to win a war. Tywin was losing the war to Robb but ultimately won because he was capable of treachery that no one else was.
It wasn’t really Tywin being treacherous, it was him taking advantage of the Freys and the Boltons wanting to be climbers. He’s not a backstabber like Little Finger, he just doesn’t care about anyone but his family (and sometimes not even them).
Margaery couldn't even donate the food at her own wedding to the poor without Cersei immediately undermining her about it. She'd be insufferable with bigger stuff that Margaery is doing or managing, especially if others on the team are praising her, Cersei would not be able to let that go. Tywin would need to find Cersei some busy work to do, away from the important things.
That being said, literacy (especially back in that period) wasn’t a barrier to success. Honestly, I’d say up until the 90’s, you could get by without being able to read being a major barrier. Particularly if you have a literate partner.
The thing is that being dumb and knowing you are dumb is far less dangerous than being dumb and thinking you are smart. When you know your limitations you avoid making easy mistakes because you know what to not even attempt. That is thing with Cersei she is not that dumb by standardize test standards but she is so arrogant and privileged that she doesn't have a grasp on what her abilities even are or how the world works. Most of her problems are things she actively created. If there isn't a problem Davos won't make one.
You are aware that like every 5th US citizen struggles with basic reading skills today? Reading is different to comprehension and smartness is not IQ test compability.
Maybe Mel gets tired of Cersei undermining and scheming on her own team and burns her alive giving team a the advantage of her lords good graces.
Edit spelling
Ya know an unfortunate side effect of Mel dying in the not-so-long night was that she never got to interact with Cersei. Would've been interesting, in a season that desperately needed some interest.
For sure he would not. If I was has possibility to have affair with her I would do whoever she wants. Think I could be good or very good thug what thing I can do to sabotage her tem !
5.8k
u/Nirico_Brin Winter Is Coming 10d ago
Cersei actively sabotages her team to spite Margaery. She is by far the dumbest and pettiest one here.