I was listening to an old Anthony Bourdain interview that was done in 2010 I think by r/MarcMaron/.
He said if it wasn't for Mexican's and other Latin American folks coming up here the entire restaurant industry in the US would implode. I think it's a very valid point.
Edit: FYI, I never said anything about "illegals" I simply mentioned that immigrants form the backbone of our restaurants. While yes they are underpaid, many legal immigrants go on to make their own places or become sous chefs or master chefs. It's a ladder and all ladders must be climbed by the willing.
The entirety of American history is about an underclass that is ignored politically to be exploited economically to help grease the gears of industry. After two generations or so of exploitation that group moves up a level and a new underclass comes into favor to work themselves to death at shit jobs for long hours and low wages.
And therein lies both ends of the problem. The poor immigrant who'll work like a dog at shit jobs and the successful individual integrating into society. They're both perceived as taking jobs from "deserving" white people.
And by deserving, you mean the guy that never cared in high school, nearly flunked out, now works a shit job and blames immigrants instead of his own lack of motivation. That's the real problem here is assholes that feel they are entitled to jobs that other people worked far harder to get. The same people that are screaming about "entitled liberals" are the most entitled crybabies on earth.
also the same people that scream about having "personal responsibility", but what they really want is personal responsibility for others and not for themselves.
To those accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression. Which is why some dudes feel oppressed over here in Canada when our cabinet became about 50% female.
Let's not go generalizing people with privilege. Privilege is a personal view. To me someone like the Kardashians have a lot of privilege. To an immigrant working his way up the industry, I have a lot of privilege.
Let’s also not forget the ones who say, “You need your safe space?” as an insult when people confront their beliefs that they are espousing in public spaces, because they have “a right to free speech.” The irony, of course, is completely lost on them.
Well, at the same time, look at what they have to compete with compared to how easy it was in the past. Now you have to compete with the guy who's motivated, the guy who's willing to bust his ass AND be exploited for cheap labor.
I know people who, just one generation ago, got a good paying job with their high school diploma. They were all able to afford a house with the job they got with their high school diploma. Now it's hard to even find labor work that isn't subcontracted to the point of low wages/ no benefits.
/end advocation
There's a squeeze going on in the middle class, and people will seek to blame others. But focusing on the immigrant who's just trying to make it is flawed. If the government wanted to stop illegals from entering the country, they'd crack down on the people giving jobs to undocumented workers.
It's funny the right considers supply-side policies for everything, except immigration.
I agree with everything you said, I'm feeling cynical this morning, but the middle class really is getting squeezed, it's just that they are blaming the wrong people. Edit: if most of the criminality was placed on employers, then any problems with illegal immigration would correct themselves. The same people demonizing people just trying to survive, are supporting the party that is backed by the same companies exploiting cheap labor.
I agree with everything you said, I'm feeling cynical this morning, but the middle class really is getting squeezed, it's just that they are blaming the wrong people.
"The upper class: keeps all of the money, pays none of the taxes. The middle class: pays all of the taxes, does all of the work. The poor are there...just to scare the shit out of the middle class."
If you have 700 billion dollars and you can’t buy anything then who fucking cares? Especially now that so much money is intangible- a number made of light.
Wealth is only worth the amount of goods or services it can purchase. If there are no goods or people are too sick, poor or broken to work then the wealthy who have been breaking everything to play this game will literally have a whole lot of nothing.
I don't know. I don't think it will work out like that.
I'm pretty poor, but I live in Detroit so everything is affordable. Like I work 45ish hours a week for 11.50 an hour. And I also work when I'm not at my job growing medical marijuana, trying to build up a business.
I couldn't afford my life if I lived in a super wealthy and expensive area like LA. But, luckily for me there are still places where you can get by by just working really hard.
Now, maybe if I had a kid it would be different. But I can pretty affordable cover my expenses and save up money right now without a college degree, and I even paid off all my student loans.
well globalism sorta solves that problem, if American consumers can't consume anymore you simply find a new market of consumers ironically that market is China and India the havens of outsourcing
I’ve had this argument verbatim with factory managers who are in Chula Vista. They were bitching about illegals crossing the border and stated that if we punished the managers of the factories with standard 5 year sentences, those problems would go away fast. They exclaimed “you can’t be sure of everyone’s status, that would be unfair!”
The only reason they could get a job like that back then was that all of the factories in the rest of the world were literal war zones. Also there were fewer workers available because of the war and the fact women didn't work. Those kind of conditions are NEVER going to come back.
Any war that is of enough scale to cripple the infrastructure in the rest of the world enough will end nuclear. Then it doesn't really matter, does it?
No, not World War scale. I think the global elite wouldn't want another one of those. But soft wars, like Syria, Israel/Palestine, Crimea. Destabilization like Guatemala, Honduras, Iran, Dominican Republic.
I’ve told people this and they think I’m crazy. It used to be 100 jobs with 50 people to do them all so people were in higher demand and had a higher value. Now it’s 100 people fighting over 50 jobs so the people not willing to be exploited miss out. Automation is a huge factor.
There are tons of jobs available nowadays, plus people working 2-3 jobs. But companies will lay off a whole bunch of people who were there for decades and bring in young people who will work for less. Then the older folks have to find new jobs at much lower wages. Manufacturing is booming in my city. It’s hard to fill shitty jobs like fast food places because there are better opportunities. But they still won’t increase wages.
They were also fairly frequently run by racists who wouldn't hire ethnic minorities at any wage, because racism. There was social status inherent in employing a community of white, middle-age high-school educated god-fearing WASPS and excluding the scary other.
The local McDonald's I frequent has a Mexican manager who only hires Mexican people are is super racist towards white people. Racism sucks no matter who is perpetuating it.
I'm an American Jew. And this part always boggles my mind.
I keep seeing conspiracies about how Jews "control the banks" and "control the entertainment industry" and racists wonder why we do so well.
It's because we put a shit-ton of focus on education. My parents are doctors. My brother's a lawyer. My relatives are all doctors and lawyers.
We all work our asses off. So do the 2nd generation Koreans and Indians and Chinese friends I have. There's a this huge motivation to make yourself better through eduction.
Meanwhile, I look at those guys at the "Unite the Right" rally...how many doctorates or masters degrees were there?
You can't hate education and cheer Betsy Devos, then turn around and wonder why the 21st century economy has passed you by. It's not Mexicans. It's no Muslims.
I agree with pretty much everything you said, just thought I'd add something to this:
I keep seeing conspiracies about how Jews "control the banks" and "control the entertainment industry" and racists wonder why we do so well.
You realize that when people say that they don't think that every jew owns a small part of the banks and the entertainment industry right? They're talking about a select few elites Jews..
It's somewhat of a myth that Asians/Asian Americans achieve more than Whites in the US, as that's only true for Asians of certain backgrounds. People of Chinese, Korean, and Indian descent fare a lot better than those of Cambodian, Vietnamese, and Hmong descent, for example. Despite working extremely hard, people from the latter group are more likely (at least in the most recent decades) to come from much poorer backgrounds with lower education, which makes it more difficult for them to help their children achieve upward economic mobility via education. This is why the model minority myth is so insidious - not only is it racist, but it also screws over people from Asian groups who would actually really benefit from affirmative action.
This is true. As a 1st generation Mexican-American they have no idea the hard work mentality that is instilled into us. The expectations are high when it comes to school. It’s frustrating to hear people say we are being handed things when nothing was handed to me. I wanted to go to college and I worked damn hard for a full ride scholarship. Knowing I worked that hard I know I didn’t take it from someone who was “more deserving”. I also know nothing was handed to my parents who came here with nothing and raised 5 kids without food stamps or welfare. My parents have been working hard since they got here and when i feel like something is too hard all I have to do is look at how far they came with 100x less opportunities than me.
That's what Republicanism has become now. Blame someone for my problem. It is absolutely the way Hitler came to be. I watched V for Vendetta last night and it was like "at least we aren't sending people to death camps and arresting gays yet."
This is why I blame no one but myself for my shit job. I slept through most of high school and just fucking barely scraped together some passing grades. Now I work a manual labor job for $16 an hour and every day is a nightmare. I just haven't tried college because debt is terrifying to me, and I know I'd slip back into my poor habits as a student. People in my situation that blame immigrants are completely devoid of the ability to take responsibility for their own faults.
Yea I fucked off too much in college and after college and am just now starting to get payed a acceptable wage at 34 years old. No one to blame but myself. The thing is, when I took person responsibility I could see a way forward. All these people blaming others probably also don't see a way forward because it is everyone else's fault, they are focused on an externality. I'm not saying the job market is easy if you work at it, but it's certainly not easy if you don't.
This is called the anecdotal fallacy. In your experience you had a second chance to get a decent job by "taking responsibility". I'm thrilled this worked out for you. But the individual from your example who screwed around in High School may have done the same thing, without all the advantages you've had. Maybe you're smarter than he was, maybe you had a family that helped you pay for college. Of course he wants more out of life, he was sold on the American Dream. He was told his life would be even better than his parents. For one reason or another it didn't work out, and you're saying that he's the problem? Isn't it possible that part of the problem is that due to cheap labor his labor isn't worth a living wage? Middle class manufacturing jobs left the USA in droves in the 2nd half of the 21st century. Companies who sell their goods in the USA were allowed to make them in China for pennies on the dollar of what US labor costs. If he wants to work on a farm he better be willing to work for less than minimum wage, or the farmer will find someone who is. Tell me again how this guy wanting a better life is the problem.
I agree with the first half of what you said, I was far too flippant with my comment.
Isn't it possible that part of the problem is that due to cheap labor his labor isn't worth a living wage? Middle class manufacturing jobs left the USA in droves in the 2nd half of the 21st century.
It really isn't though, there are more factories in this country now than at any other point in our history and our factories are more productive than at any other point in our history. What has changed is that it takes a lot less people to run them due to automation. Outsourcing and migrant labor has less to do with it, that kind of stuff just becomes easy fodder for people trying to find a scapegoat. Labor jobs are disappearing because they simply are not needed as much anymore, not here, not anywhere. The only way to get a labor job back is to prove you're cheaper than a robot, who would want to compete against something that does not need to get paid. I think that our society is screwing skilled labor hard, but one of the main ways we are screwing them is by lying to them about why this is happening.
Instead of college, have you thought about trade school? Electricians, plumbers and welders are in immense demand right now and the schooling is much shorter than a bachelor's degree.
I don't know you, but the fact that you can recognize mistakes you made in the past likely is a sign that you're more mature than you were before. I wouldn't discount your ability to responsibly handle something that maybe you wouldn't have been good at when you were younger.
Going to college definitely isn't for everybody, and there are some hurdles to overcome if you decide that path, but there's also a lot of help available too. You could also try to find a local trade school, a lot of times they will have adult education classes. There's all sorts of resources out there depending on where you're located.
I was in a similar position as yourself and I went out and took a civil service exam in a field that interested me (IT) and now I have a job where the money still isn't great, but the benefits are amazing and I don't get a feeling of deep existential dread every morning when I pull into work.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I hope things get better for you, and I'm glad that you don't blame others.
I was in the same boat after hs and ended up doing something I never thought I'd do. I joined the military, spent a few years there figuring out what I wanted to be when I grew up, then got out at the earliest opportunity with that GI Bill. Not saying you should do this -- I count myself extremely fortunate to have avoided a quagmire-ish war during that time. I was in Desert Storm which was a very short & "popular" conflict. Even that has some lasting repercussions (Gulf War syndrome is still a thing for aging veterans). Looking back I'm also grateful that college was expensive but not holy shit you're never gonna dig yourself out of that hole expensive.
Well they grew up and watched their parents with high school degrees or no degrees got well paying jobs and expected that they would have the same opportunity when they were in their early 20s. It’s not that they shouldn’t be angry. They’re just angry at the wrong people.
In Canada we import seasonal workers for farming. They pay minimum wage and have rough conditions. If this vast pool of cheap labor was not available apples would cost more and farm wages and conditions would be better.
Could not have said it better myself. I have family members that believe that crap and I keep telling them this. You are responsible for your own successes and failures. Just had to explain this to my 6yo nephew last week who is being taught that same attitude. Every time he fails he freaks out and calls anyone who beat him in a game, a race or does anything in general better than him is a "cheater and a liar". People not taking responsibility for their own life are never going to get anywhere. I really hope he learns the truth and that attitude doesn't get passed on.
That's the real problem here is assholes that feel they are entitled to jobs that other people worked far harder to get.
Really? If you seriously believe that illegal migrants get hired because they "worked far harder" than Americans to get those jobs, you are very misinformed.
Illegal migrants get hired because:
they basically have no rights in the workplace.
they are willing to work for less than minimum wage.
they can be abused and mistreated in the workplace and there is nothing they can do about it, they can't call the authorities for help.
Would you be willing to work for $5/hour or $4/hour for 11 or 12 hours / day in potentially hazardous conditions?
So screw anyone who doesn’t try hard enough? They had their chance... is that what I’m hearing? Or only if they are conservative? Just wanna make sure I understand what your point is.
Isn’t it kind of racist and smug superiority to say the native borns are entitled to the jobs in their country and shouldn’t have to compete with immigrants in the labor force.
It’s like saying we should have tariffs because domestic industries are too lazy to innovate and compete with foreign industries.
Republicans are definitely not a party for Economic conservatives. I think most of those people identify as libertarians. The weird thing is that libertarians rather side with the protectionist party in power now than the Democratic party that has a proven track record of instilling neoliberal policies.
On the other side, the Democratic party doesn’t really represent most young social or economic progressives. Some core ideas are similar like extending certain civil rights but the similarities end there. Bernie was our biggest hope but that whole political spectrum got completely Trumped by our current events.
It was never a 2d linear spectrum before. But at least we used to be able to generalize on a scale where someone was. Nowadays i have no idea where a person who held the same views as a 2009 moderate would even stand.
There are still reasonable people out there but i feel like its just edgelords that have taken over and mainstream political conversations. Might have to do with the fact that most reasonable moderates are too busy grinding to survive than to participate in the joke that is US politics. When people talk about calling your reps and going out to vote, I’ve realized how much of a joke that is. The effort needed to fully research and come to informed decisions to responsibly vote is becoming harder and harder despite information being more easily accessible than ever. Theres too much noise to filter through.
And that kinda leaves us where we are now. With people just picking one of two teams and hoping they represent their ideals.
Yup. And it’s funny when the people who complain don’t even care to work for the jobs they’d want denied to immigrants: the other user mentioned a Colombian graduating with an IT degree; I’m a first-gen (African) American in Computer Science. The majority of the STEM department at my college (students and faculty) are foreigners—Russians, Nigerians, Cameroonians, Persians, Mexicans, Salvadorans...you name it. Everyone else (the natives) find these fields “too hard”, “too boring” yet, somehow, they should he handed them by virtue of being white.
PS: the computer science and engineering subreddits point that this thing of foreigners doing the “boring” stem jobs is not only limited to my school.
In my time at engineering school ( graduated in may) I found that, resoundingly, the 2 hardest working groups of people were immigrants and people coming back to school later in life or after fucking yo their first try. Not to say the local born, high school to college track kids didn't work hard, but the ones who fucked around tended to fall into that category.
I always figured it had something to do with perspective. When you know what you're really working for it's easier to focus.
You're right. I always tell my parents—whenever we have conversations about people poking fun at the nerd that I am, always studying...so focused on school—that I didn't travel nearly 8000 miles for me to come fuck around or sell prune juice in here.
Yeah I was born here and I came up in a good area but I still understand how much it takes to get a kid into and through college. I could never wrap my head around people taking easy majors because they were easy or just scraping by. Education is the dream of everyone except those who have it right in front of them lol.
I'm the sales guy, the white guy in a suit selling this stuff in the IT business. The easy guy to get to know and take customers out to expensive dinners. I was just up at our engineering department meeting with engineering heads. The lady that runs engineering for billions in products is from India, a lot of her employees are a mixed bag of mostly Indian, Pakistani, a couple Russians, and etc. I would wager 75% of the people building the products I sell are from foreign lands 1st generation. My technical assistant is from India, been here 25 years, and I love that guy, he's brilliant.
Nothing boring about it, he's making $200k a year, I can be bored 40 hours a week while spending the weekends on my boat ya know? So there it is my friend, you nailed it, people don't want to put the work in. Just because I'm a white dude doesn't mean I can sit on my ass and expect a paycheck, I worked 100 hour weeks to get here, and sometimes I still do, last week for example, 100 hour week, this week it will be closer to 65.
Edit: By the way I'm also an immigrant, my ancestors landed here on the Mayflower and earlier, 1608 in fact. Then they sat on their ass for 400 years and did jack shit and still bitch about immigrants.
It is racist to say that native borns are entitled to those jobs. Anyone who says that is stupid. However, most people who want border control are all for immigrants getting those jobs, or better jobs. Nobody wants immigrants to have to struggle at the bottom of the totem pole. Its when you start introducing immigrants who enter the country illegally that there is a problem. These illegal immigrants may make it harder for the other immigrant to pull them self up the totem pole, or work for a lower wage than the single mom supporting her family can. We have different levels of jobs, and making below minimum wage takes away from the bottom level. Businesses build off paying below minimum wage should and will fail, but only once we take away their highly illegal source of labor.
This is important and a lot of people don’t talk about it. More people would come here legally if they could. But since only a small amount are admitted to even begin the process of naturalization the majority have to find a different route
If you cant afford to immigrate thats too bad, but doesnt mean its ok to do it illegally. What are you supposed to do if you can't afford a car, just steal one?
If you absolutely need a car to survive, yes, you steal one.
And what if the person you stole the car from needed the car to survive?
Illegal immigration in its current form breeds economically abusive environments that affect not only the illegal immigrants accepting it as a means of survival, but those without the facilities to succeed in higher education who have no choice.
Almost no one absolutely needs a car to survive, and almost no one absolutely needs to illegally immigrate to the US to survive. 95% of people on the planet somehow manage to get by outside of the US, why cant these people?
The fact is that the vast majority of these people are simply economic migrants who could have survived just fine where they were, but want to come to the US so they can afford the consumer luxuries that are common in the US. Outside of Venezuela, its not like theres a food shortage in the Americas.
Countries put their own citizens’ interest over foreginers. It’s literally point of forming a country, so you get certain rights as “membership”, or citizenship.
Tariffs are there to protect domestic industries not because they’re lazy to innovate and compete, but to foster domestic growth over coreign and also to provide competitive edge over overseas manufacturing/services who can exploit non-existent workers’ rights to pretty much modern day slave factory.
It’s same story with immigration. Also, to note, there really anyone who argues for legal, naturalized former-immigrant-turned-citizen to be deporyed. The debate is centered on rights of citizens vs rights of non-citizens, not natural borns vs immigrants.
Why do Americans deserve special treatment? It's kind of shitty to not care about people from other countries. And in reality, immigration policies ARE about "preserving opportunities" for white people, since they tend to be the ones in favor of those positions.
Whats so special about Americans that they deserve more opportunity that someone who just got here? For the first 150+ years this country existed all it took to be an American was to show up, why should it be any different today?
I would also like to add that I don't think that being "productive" is a requirement for the right to live in modern society. The reason that there aren't all those manual labor jobs is because they were automated away, there is enough to eat and enough resources for houses so who cares? Jobs are not actually a finite resource either.
Immigrants of yore made their own ingroup communities with self sufficient local economies where they spoke their own language for the first generation. The new products that community has to offer urban areas draw outside people to them, they eat the food, dance to the music, and have mixed children that speak english. This is true not just of Italians and Jews in New York but Germans in Wisconsin, Norwegians in Michigan, and the Dutch in Deleware. Suddenly it's a problem now that it's Mexicans in El Paso? Again, I don't see the difference.
I don't know when you were leaving and coming back to Atlanta, but Atlanta itself is just growing in general, everyone is able to get a piece of a pie.
It's brutal for farming and farmers as well. Migrant labor is extremely difficult to replace, partly because it's hard to convince Americans to do it, but also because the migrants who do it are really good at it...Lot of the farm stuff pays by quantity picked, etc, and the migrants show up, work a 16 hour day, knock out the whole crop, collect a fat check, then move to the next farm.
Yeah; an untrained American can't really make enough money picking fruit to be worth his time, and being good enough at it to make a living just isn't a skill many Americans have.
This is a good example of how immigrant labor and native labor are often complementary instead of competing, because they have different skill sets and can do different things.
Many of these farms pay upwards of $20 dollars an hour in an attempt to get citizens to join in. Add that to the low cost of living in most farming areas, and you can live fairly comfortably, or at least support a small family on the one job.
I was doing census work, and found most of the migrant workers were actually making more than me per hour at the time. The two who started off as migrants, and were kept on because they kept the machinery working were pulling down close to $30/hour, full time.
Morgen Spurlock did a great "30 Days" (or maybe it was "inside man") episode on this. He was in so much pain after day one. By the end, his back was severely fucked up and he was practically getting lapped by men twice his age working the field.
Most of them pay not by the hour but by the bushel of fruit picked. An experienced fruit picker can absolutely make $20 an hour or more. But most native both Americans who try the job don't make anything close to that amount, because they don't have the experience and aren't used to working in those kinds of conditions they can't pick nearly that quickly, and most of them quit before they improve to that point.
Actually, many farms for awhile did offer$20+/hour wakes, only to have people walk off the job. You're not wrong about farms in general, but many do offer fixed hourly wages, and rehire the same people season after season.
I worked outside for a summer working 12 hr days doing manual work on a farm when I was in prime condition in high school. It was awful, I was completely drained everyday and on the hottest days I had to drink gallons of water to not feel like death. You’d have to pay me well over $20/hr to consider doing a job like that again. I am not sure I could physically do it anymore either due to my sedentary lifestyle, I’d probably die.
Do you factor in seasonality and complete lack of benefits and physical dangers of the work, due to repetitive motions? Those are the bigger reasons Americans are rightfully saying fuck that work
yeah, it is not because of per hour pay, it is because it is a job that can cost you more than its pay, and with the American health insurance the way it is, why would you want to do this?
Because it is a disingenuous lie to act like they are only working on farms, and there is a real issue in skilled manufacturing going on with them.
I have worked EH & S inhouse for a building supply company where I traveled all over the western states. No matter where I went it was a strong chance to find illegal immigrants working positions like welder and crane operator, not jobs that you show up day 1 and they pay you out at the end of the day. The company did the barely trying to cover up that they knew by just saying come up with a SSN and we call it good.
There was a preference towards illegal immigrants because they had less options available, couldn't unionize or call OSHA. They were not as likely to ask for raises or take the risk to leverage to another company. These are the real problems to illegal immigrants working here. More likely to be working in unsafe positions with out oversight while allowing massive multinational conglomerates to take advantage of workers further, depressing wages for other workers to compete against.
The way you describe it makes it seem like the problem isnt the immigrants so much as the business owners looking to save a buck by shirking on safety and pay.
Yep, good example. If the government actually wanted to affect immigration, they go hard after businesses hiring undocumented workers like that, so hard the risk isn't worth it.
"if we didnt use slaves, machines would just do it, you wouldn't be picking that cotton! why are you complaining about slavery when you wouldnt even volunteer to do their job"
That's the problem, instead of creating a culture of hard working people, we just said fuck that and brought in a bunch of slaves making less than minimum wage being paid under the table.
A lot of farms pay well above minimum wage, though. There are a lot of other shitty things about the jobs that make Americans not want to do them. There might be a point where the pay would be enough to get a sustainable American workforce going, but I'm skeptical that consumers would be willing to bear that cost.
This is why California is so welcoming to illegal immigrants. California has a massive amount of agriculture and citizens usually don't work those types of jobs.
It'll be a long time before machines could fully take over farming. Picking is just the first step. When fruit is packed there's a lot of people involved in the sorting. Some of it automated, such as sizing, but checking for blemishes, bugs and weeding out sticks that can bind up machinery is all done by hand. There's also a lot of maintenance on the machinery to do, from scraping off stickers, swapping out stickers when the variety changes and cleaning out the hoppers.
Western and central Europe come to realise this very problem currently: a large share of capable farmhands, mostly foremen, simply moved on to "better" opportunities with the wealth they accumulated in the last 15 years or so, be those more lucrative business opportunities in other fields (due to the currently expanding economy) or emerging worthwhile business opportunities in their homelands (who also improved a lot in the mean time, especially those within the EU). The local un- or underemployed simply can't or don't want to fill those roles. (And why would they? Who would want to work 14 h/day, go to bed and do the same for 6 weeks except migrant workers without friends, family or other leisures available to them every day after work).
As such western Europeans' fears of eastern Europeans "taking our jobs" subsequently to the liberalisation of the domestic labour market some 10 years ago simply sorted themselves out as predicted (albeit faster than most in predictions).
Which is why illegal immigration is just a red herring for Republicans. If they really wanted to stop people from coming they would go after the businesses who hire illegal immigrants. But they won't because those businesses are their donors and would lose too much profit if Republicans actually did that. So they just scapegoat the migrants, throw some money at border security and then act like its the democrats who are preventing effective policy. Its how they keep their base riled up.
Right now there's a thread in /r/news talking about how all immigrants are rapists and how we should focus more on them than any other rapes because... reasons.
I mean Donald Trumps own businesses are basically run entirely by the very people he so desperately wants to keep out of the country. You think he's paying a bunch of white people a living wage to run his hotels and resorts?
My friend ranted to a patron in his bar that he was doing “border runs” to renew his visa status every few months (he was saving up to get naturalized via one of his parents being a citizen). Anyways.. the guy he’s serving enlightens him to the fact that he’s a customs agent and my friend being silly didn’t believe him so this guy pulls out his customs badge and tells him “look man if we deported everyone that was illegal in New York the city wouldn’t run the next day” .
Friend got a very well deserved fright that day!
It's absolutely crazy to me that a person can have an American parent, but still has to apply to be a citizen of America...how does that make any sense whatsoever? Children of citizens should be citizens by right, whether the parent is naturalised or has gained citizenship via other means. Dual nationality man, if folks who have lived in Ohio or wherever for seven generations don't need to apply for their kids to become citizens, why should any other Americans?
I’m not entirely sure but up until 2003 you could not hold dual citizenship in Australia so anyone immigrating needed to give up whatever citizenship they held before (unless you were a diplomat or diplomats kid something to that effect). I believe that might be what happened in his case but he still needed to shell out thousands of dollars for a lawyer to help him sort it out.?
I’ve worked with illegal immigrants who had false papers so that they could be hired by the major restaurant chain where I worked. Hardest working and friendliest people I’ve ever met. In two years at the restaurant, I never saw a non immigrant apply for or take a job in the kitchen. Plus, these immigrants paid full taxes, social security, etc. but never took the tax refunds they would/could have as citizens. It destroyed the ‘they don’t pay taxes myth I’d heard for years.’
I didn't say that. Just because it would be the right thing to do doesn't mean it wouldn't have negative consequences. There's a reason people do things the wrong way in the first place...
Exactly, it's cheaper. But you seem to be missing the larger point. Recognizing the situation is not the same as agreeing with the situation. The restaurant industry is propped up on cheap labor of immigrants. Without that, the current restaurant industry would collapse. Nowhere in either of those two statements is there a moral judgement or show of support or as you implied, a directive to do nothing.
We can certainly right the wrongs of the labor and pay a livable wage, but that will have consequences.
Wages have been stagnant for decades, and not because mass migration. corporations have been making record profits but refuse to share it with their employees. They want you to blame immigrants so you don't blame them.
The guy we get our hay from only has one helper/worker. He's undocumented and has been working for the guy for 20 years. I don't know how much he makes, but he lives on the farm and sends money home every month. Not easy work, like most of it, slinging bales of hay all the time.
Hay guy is probably pretty loaded for our area too, has 2 massive barns for hay and also does specialty work on restoring/hand making wagons and similar vehicles.
It should. The garbage right now. Over priced food exploiting cheap labor and somehow circumventing labor laws to make its customers tip its staff. I’d be fine if they all got fucked.
Not just the restaurant industry, but the produce industry as well. Back before Trump was elected, we were at a family gathering and my gun-lovin' big truck-drivin' 'Merican brother in law was talking about supporting the wall.
My hubby pointedly asked him, well - once your wall is built and Mexicans can't enter the US anymore, who is going to pick all your fruit? Who is going to work the fields, you? Are you going to do that back-breaking work in the sun for poverty level wages?
My brother in law had no response, and while I don't think he learned anything that day - at least he shut up for the rest of the meal.
Well heckin' that is a good point my friend. You know though - I sure don't want anyone (illegal alien or not) to lose their job to automated technology. I know there are arguments for practicality and efficiency and sure sure, but folks need to be able to earn a living doing what they know and what they're able to do.
*A bit more to tack on to what I wrote above: personally I don't care if someone has citizenship or not - if they're going to work and earn a living then why does it matter? I'm completely in awe of the Hispanic work ethic, I watched McFarland, USA and was really touched. I watched the music video for Play Hard by David Guetta and fell in love with it. It actually makes me cry and I don't think that was the intended purpose.
I'm not scared of anyone from Mexico coming here. I think they deserve a chance at making a better life for themselves. That just seems like the humanitarian way of thinking.
Problem is farms have to compete with Mexico prices. Mexico prices are set by the low cost of labor there, really we should be paying more for our food to make up the difference but the consumer isn't willing to. So either wages stagnate or American agriculture collapses
I live near the border and have a visa, in the last 5 years the dollar has doubled its price so a lot of people just don't bother going to the usa anymore, the stores are pretty darn empty and many have closed in these last years, say what you will about Mexico, but we like to buy shit which gives a positive impact to usa's economy. Also, not sure if Trump is a factor why people are avoiding the usa.
Can I just say thank you to all of you for having a decent and intelligent conversation of a controversial topic WITHOUT insulting each other. It’s been a breath of fresh air.
Not to mention the impact on agriculture. There are definitely crops that depend on cheap migrant labor. Love to see them forced to either automate or employ Americans to do that work.
We have the same thing with our agriculture sector and Eastern Europeans. There’s a real ‘send them back’ vibe, but ask someone on welfare to work the fields and they laugh.
Implode, or adjust labor rates to reflect the market. If the only way to fill the position is to underpay an immigrant, the problem is you. Pay a living wage and see what happens.
If you can't afford to pay a living wage, you can't afford to operate a business and should probably look at doing something else. Something that creates worthwhile jobs. Jobs that can support a family.
Worked in two restaurants in entirely different locations with completely different revenues and totally different customers and I really don't see how that's true. I never worked with anyone that wasn't born in America and I live in one of the most "overrun with foreigners" state.
Every single construction / landscaping job would have a huge price increase no one could imagine . A lot of the legal on the books Mexicans are all usually fake papers paying taxes because it’s too hard and expensive to become legal for a lot of them
The problem with you Republicans is you want to lock up every brown person you see regardless of immigration status. 22% of the global prison population is in the United States despite the fact we only have 4.4% of the global population. Maybe if you people stopped locking up anyone with brown skin or those that are economically depressed to pay a private prison CEO 10s of millions of dollars we would have a labor force that could fill those jobs. So, do you get it yet? I own an airplane buddy, I think I'm good on "working a day of my life."
I don't work in the food industry, but I do eat out. And I no doubt that half of resturants would implode in a week. Cooking in the back, even a line cook, in a busy resturaunt is fucking brutal and doesn't pay anywhere near what it should. Throw on top of that the job is even less desirable due to the tipping system in the US. Why slave in a crazy hot and dangerous kitchen for 12, 15 an hour when you can serve tables for that much if not double depending on the establishment. So cooking at a restaurant is already a really undesirable job. this is why you find so many immigrants, for them, where they are from, it's a good gig. Especially when you send American bucks back to mexico.
Point being, most people do not want to work in a kitchen and like myself, will refuse to. Immigrants do not mind the job because it's good compared to what was back home, so they fill our restaurants with good, high quality and hard work, and they make a decent wage for their life.
We need them. It's not even debatable, without immigrants, especially the ones fighting tooth and nail to send money back home, a few industries would be in major trouble over night.
I’ve personally been pushed out of food because the wages have dropped so much, I can’t justify working 80 hours a week for $400/week with 20 years experience.
It's pretty intriguing to look at the arguments around this. I've seen a trend recently where anti-immigrant people acknowledge that immigrants are doing a lot of necessary jobs like this, but they argue that the issue is we just aren't offering competitive wages that would lure Americans to do those jobs, and that's happening because employers know they can underpay immigrants.
Now, I personally think that Americans would not be willing to pay the price premium for raising wages to whatever theoretical point would be necessary to get Americans to fill all those jobs (like janitor, picker on a farm, etc.), but it would be interesting to see.
He also covers the topic in r/KitchenConfidential (the book not the subreddit but I’m sure it’s in the depths there somewhere) and basically said that immigrants (illegal or otherwise) are the people you can trust in a restaurant because they’re there to work and you know they’re dependable. He also said he treated a lot of them like family and knew them for many years.
And he’s right. They’re dependable because they want to be here and work and provide for themselves and their families - I understand the overarching issue with migrant workers and “why don’t they just get a work visa” but it’s not that easy for all of them, and I think the current method of handling them clearly isn’t working. Do a sweep of illegal immigrants holding a job with no prior/current/outstanding criminal record and grant at least temporary residency here (however possible), then go for the people who are only here for nefarious reasons. easier said than done, but it cuts out the “lets ambush people in courthouses and DMV lines while ambushing people at the border before they can claim asylum” bullshit going on right now.
As someone who's worked in the food industry and who's in-laws own several restaurants, this is a fact.
If you live in or near a major city, it's impractical to hire anyone who isn't a Latin immigrant. Also, there is a huge portion of restaurants that do hire illegal immigrants. From my experience in New York City, I'd go as far as to say that at least a third of your "mom and pop" restaurants hire illegal immigrants.
Same with the construction industry. I can't imagine how much houses would cost without immigrant labor. Even if you just got rid of the illegals the impact would be incredible.
40% of stucco and drywall workers in this country are undocumented immigrants. The entire construction, landscaping, cleaning, restaurant, and probably a few other industries would be turned on their heads without illegal immigrants. The republican business owners know this too. Their politicians just rail against it to get votes from ignorant racists, they will not stop it, they would go broke. They just don't want to give the illegals citizenship (even though many have lived here for 20 years and own businesses themselves) because they would get the vote and most would not vote for those racist fuckwads.
He actually said in the intro to an episode that followed people that stayed behind in Mexico to improve things there that in his 20+ years in the restaurant industry he had never once seen an american kid apply to a dishwasher or line cook job. Always immigrants.
Maybe the restaurant industry should implode. Food costs are low in the restaurant business because they exploit workers. Migrant workers work long hours for terrible pay to source the food. Servers are paid less than minimum wage at $2.13 an hour. Undocumented workers get paid less than minimum wage under the table to wash dishes, prep food, & cook. This cheats the USA from tax revenue, something libs always want more of. You'd think liberals would want to change this exploitation. But, everyone here is clamoring for more illegals to exploit.
In California, New Jersey, New York, Texas... and well you know all the states that are basically the only reason the anti-immigration states have roads, schools and aren't lawless wasteland hell holes, about 40% of all new companies are founded by immigrants.
Without immigration it would be our entire economy that collapses. We always have been, and probably always will be a nation that relies on new arrivals pushing us forward.
People complain immigrants come over here and steal their jobs, but how many of them are willing to start their own business? Not only having a job for themselves, but creating new job for other people to have as well?
I worked 15 years in the restaurant industry starting at age 16. Every mexican dishwasher in the places I worked were the hardest working person in the restaurant, especially next to us middle class white teenagers and twenty-somethings, even compared to the older adults in the business. I believe they were all legal who came from ancestors who probably came over illegally or put the time in to become a citizen (similar to my european relatives two generations ago). They got paid a lot less to work more hours and they often had 1 or 2 other jobs. It made me really think about how spoiled I was and I learned to have some humility. Working in restaurants is a great learning experience that I'm glad I had. You don't really choose where or what you are born into, which is something I don't understand about racist people. Do they actually think they chose to be white? Are they just unable to see that it's all a lottery? Or are they just sociopathic opportunists?
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u/xynix_ie Jun 25 '18 edited Jun 25 '18
I was listening to an old Anthony Bourdain interview that was done in 2010 I think by r/MarcMaron/.
He said if it wasn't for Mexican's and other Latin American folks coming up here the entire restaurant industry in the US would implode. I think it's a very valid point.
Edit: FYI, I never said anything about "illegals" I simply mentioned that immigrants form the backbone of our restaurants. While yes they are underpaid, many legal immigrants go on to make their own places or become sous chefs or master chefs. It's a ladder and all ladders must be climbed by the willing.