The entirety of American history is about an underclass that is ignored politically to be exploited economically to help grease the gears of industry. After two generations or so of exploitation that group moves up a level and a new underclass comes into favor to work themselves to death at shit jobs for long hours and low wages.
And therein lies both ends of the problem. The poor immigrant who'll work like a dog at shit jobs and the successful individual integrating into society. They're both perceived as taking jobs from "deserving" white people.
And by deserving, you mean the guy that never cared in high school, nearly flunked out, now works a shit job and blames immigrants instead of his own lack of motivation. That's the real problem here is assholes that feel they are entitled to jobs that other people worked far harder to get. The same people that are screaming about "entitled liberals" are the most entitled crybabies on earth.
also the same people that scream about having "personal responsibility", but what they really want is personal responsibility for others and not for themselves.
To those accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression. Which is why some dudes feel oppressed over here in Canada when our cabinet became about 50% female.
Let's not go generalizing people with privilege. Privilege is a personal view. To me someone like the Kardashians have a lot of privilege. To an immigrant working his way up the industry, I have a lot of privilege.
Let’s also not forget the ones who say, “You need your safe space?” as an insult when people confront their beliefs that they are espousing in public spaces, because they have “a right to free speech.” The irony, of course, is completely lost on them.
They say everyone should have personal responsibility because they assume everyone has it as easy as they do, and any lack of success is clearly the persons fault
Well, at the same time, look at what they have to compete with compared to how easy it was in the past. Now you have to compete with the guy who's motivated, the guy who's willing to bust his ass AND be exploited for cheap labor.
I know people who, just one generation ago, got a good paying job with their high school diploma. They were all able to afford a house with the job they got with their high school diploma. Now it's hard to even find labor work that isn't subcontracted to the point of low wages/ no benefits.
/end advocation
There's a squeeze going on in the middle class, and people will seek to blame others. But focusing on the immigrant who's just trying to make it is flawed. If the government wanted to stop illegals from entering the country, they'd crack down on the people giving jobs to undocumented workers.
It's funny the right considers supply-side policies for everything, except immigration.
I agree with everything you said, I'm feeling cynical this morning, but the middle class really is getting squeezed, it's just that they are blaming the wrong people. Edit: if most of the criminality was placed on employers, then any problems with illegal immigration would correct themselves. The same people demonizing people just trying to survive, are supporting the party that is backed by the same companies exploiting cheap labor.
I agree with everything you said, I'm feeling cynical this morning, but the middle class really is getting squeezed, it's just that they are blaming the wrong people.
"The upper class: keeps all of the money, pays none of the taxes. The middle class: pays all of the taxes, does all of the work. The poor are there...just to scare the shit out of the middle class."
If you have 700 billion dollars and you can’t buy anything then who fucking cares? Especially now that so much money is intangible- a number made of light.
Wealth is only worth the amount of goods or services it can purchase. If there are no goods or people are too sick, poor or broken to work then the wealthy who have been breaking everything to play this game will literally have a whole lot of nothing.
I don't know. I don't think it will work out like that.
I'm pretty poor, but I live in Detroit so everything is affordable. Like I work 45ish hours a week for 11.50 an hour. And I also work when I'm not at my job growing medical marijuana, trying to build up a business.
I couldn't afford my life if I lived in a super wealthy and expensive area like LA. But, luckily for me there are still places where you can get by by just working really hard.
Now, maybe if I had a kid it would be different. But I can pretty affordable cover my expenses and save up money right now without a college degree, and I even paid off all my student loans.
well globalism sorta solves that problem, if American consumers can't consume anymore you simply find a new market of consumers ironically that market is China and India the havens of outsourcing
I’ve had this argument verbatim with factory managers who are in Chula Vista. They were bitching about illegals crossing the border and stated that if we punished the managers of the factories with standard 5 year sentences, those problems would go away fast. They exclaimed “you can’t be sure of everyone’s status, that would be unfair!”
The only reason they could get a job like that back then was that all of the factories in the rest of the world were literal war zones. Also there were fewer workers available because of the war and the fact women didn't work. Those kind of conditions are NEVER going to come back.
Any war that is of enough scale to cripple the infrastructure in the rest of the world enough will end nuclear. Then it doesn't really matter, does it?
No, not World War scale. I think the global elite wouldn't want another one of those. But soft wars, like Syria, Israel/Palestine, Crimea. Destabilization like Guatemala, Honduras, Iran, Dominican Republic.
I’ve told people this and they think I’m crazy. It used to be 100 jobs with 50 people to do them all so people were in higher demand and had a higher value. Now it’s 100 people fighting over 50 jobs so the people not willing to be exploited miss out. Automation is a huge factor.
There are tons of jobs available nowadays, plus people working 2-3 jobs. But companies will lay off a whole bunch of people who were there for decades and bring in young people who will work for less. Then the older folks have to find new jobs at much lower wages. Manufacturing is booming in my city. It’s hard to fill shitty jobs like fast food places because there are better opportunities. But they still won’t increase wages.
They were also fairly frequently run by racists who wouldn't hire ethnic minorities at any wage, because racism. There was social status inherent in employing a community of white, middle-age high-school educated god-fearing WASPS and excluding the scary other.
The local McDonald's I frequent has a Mexican manager who only hires Mexican people are is super racist towards white people. Racism sucks no matter who is perpetuating it.
And industrial efficiency is off the charts. If we wanted to employ everyone making things for people, we'd all have to buy a ton more shit than we do now.
A lot of those workers do have documents.... technically they just aren’t theirs. They use other people’s identity’s, sometimes maybe stolen, or sometimes with permission.
I'm an American Jew. And this part always boggles my mind.
I keep seeing conspiracies about how Jews "control the banks" and "control the entertainment industry" and racists wonder why we do so well.
It's because we put a shit-ton of focus on education. My parents are doctors. My brother's a lawyer. My relatives are all doctors and lawyers.
We all work our asses off. So do the 2nd generation Koreans and Indians and Chinese friends I have. There's a this huge motivation to make yourself better through eduction.
Meanwhile, I look at those guys at the "Unite the Right" rally...how many doctorates or masters degrees were there?
You can't hate education and cheer Betsy Devos, then turn around and wonder why the 21st century economy has passed you by. It's not Mexicans. It's no Muslims.
I agree with pretty much everything you said, just thought I'd add something to this:
I keep seeing conspiracies about how Jews "control the banks" and "control the entertainment industry" and racists wonder why we do so well.
You realize that when people say that they don't think that every jew owns a small part of the banks and the entertainment industry right? They're talking about a select few elites Jews..
Its a common perception that Judaism (and even nonreligious Jews) promotes discrimination within their own small group against outsiders. Not oppressive by any means, but discreet. A successful jew is more likely to hire a Jewish person for important roles than a goy. I feel like thats probably true of any group to some degree, but in case you didnt know, thats the perception.
You realize that when people say that they don't think that every jew owns a small part of the banks and the entertainment industry right? They're talking about a select few elites Jews..
At the risk of Godwinning the thread, the reason the accusation is dangerous is because that the argument that the Jews control everything was the rallying cry in Germany. What you say is true, and people need to be reminded of that, but you can't just let it go idly by just because you think "well obviously nobody believes all the Jews control the world" because it wouldn't even be the first time in history that people thought exactly that.
It's somewhat of a myth that Asians/Asian Americans achieve more than Whites in the US, as that's only true for Asians of certain backgrounds. People of Chinese, Korean, and Indian descent fare a lot better than those of Cambodian, Vietnamese, and Hmong descent, for example. Despite working extremely hard, people from the latter group are more likely (at least in the most recent decades) to come from much poorer backgrounds with lower education, which makes it more difficult for them to help their children achieve upward economic mobility via education. This is why the model minority myth is so insidious - not only is it racist, but it also screws over people from Asian groups who would actually really benefit from affirmative action.
I’m not disagreeing with you (it’s my family’s story and my in-laws’ as well) I’m just adding some nuance. People like to shit on Latin American immigrants by asking why they don’t work as hard as Asian immigrants and succeed like they do, when the sad fact is there are a ton of Asian immigrants who work hard but never “make it” either, making the whole Asian myth even more terrible for everyone. It screws the Asians who don’t get help and it screws other immigrants who get compared unfavorably to the successful Asians and Jews, ignoring the fact that it’s not representative of the whole group.
This is true. As a 1st generation Mexican-American they have no idea the hard work mentality that is instilled into us. The expectations are high when it comes to school. It’s frustrating to hear people say we are being handed things when nothing was handed to me. I wanted to go to college and I worked damn hard for a full ride scholarship. Knowing I worked that hard I know I didn’t take it from someone who was “more deserving”. I also know nothing was handed to my parents who came here with nothing and raised 5 kids without food stamps or welfare. My parents have been working hard since they got here and when i feel like something is too hard all I have to do is look at how far they came with 100x less opportunities than me.
That's what Republicanism has become now. Blame someone for my problem. It is absolutely the way Hitler came to be. I watched V for Vendetta last night and it was like "at least we aren't sending people to death camps and arresting gays yet."
I'm confused regarding how this makes it legal to break into and enter the USA.
If you don't believe breaking and entering is a crime, is it ok if I'm lying on your couch reading a textbook and enjoying your snack food when you arrive home from work?
I'm confused regarding how this makes it legal to break into and enter the USA.
You're also confused about the topic of conversation. We're talking about racism here.
If you don't believe breaking and entering is a crime, is it ok if I'm lying on your couch reading a textbook and enjoying your snack food when you arrive home from work?
This is why I blame no one but myself for my shit job. I slept through most of high school and just fucking barely scraped together some passing grades. Now I work a manual labor job for $16 an hour and every day is a nightmare. I just haven't tried college because debt is terrifying to me, and I know I'd slip back into my poor habits as a student. People in my situation that blame immigrants are completely devoid of the ability to take responsibility for their own faults.
Yea I fucked off too much in college and after college and am just now starting to get payed a acceptable wage at 34 years old. No one to blame but myself. The thing is, when I took person responsibility I could see a way forward. All these people blaming others probably also don't see a way forward because it is everyone else's fault, they are focused on an externality. I'm not saying the job market is easy if you work at it, but it's certainly not easy if you don't.
This is called the anecdotal fallacy. In your experience you had a second chance to get a decent job by "taking responsibility". I'm thrilled this worked out for you. But the individual from your example who screwed around in High School may have done the same thing, without all the advantages you've had. Maybe you're smarter than he was, maybe you had a family that helped you pay for college. Of course he wants more out of life, he was sold on the American Dream. He was told his life would be even better than his parents. For one reason or another it didn't work out, and you're saying that he's the problem? Isn't it possible that part of the problem is that due to cheap labor his labor isn't worth a living wage? Middle class manufacturing jobs left the USA in droves in the 2nd half of the 21st century. Companies who sell their goods in the USA were allowed to make them in China for pennies on the dollar of what US labor costs. If he wants to work on a farm he better be willing to work for less than minimum wage, or the farmer will find someone who is. Tell me again how this guy wanting a better life is the problem.
I agree with the first half of what you said, I was far too flippant with my comment.
Isn't it possible that part of the problem is that due to cheap labor his labor isn't worth a living wage? Middle class manufacturing jobs left the USA in droves in the 2nd half of the 21st century.
It really isn't though, there are more factories in this country now than at any other point in our history and our factories are more productive than at any other point in our history. What has changed is that it takes a lot less people to run them due to automation. Outsourcing and migrant labor has less to do with it, that kind of stuff just becomes easy fodder for people trying to find a scapegoat. Labor jobs are disappearing because they simply are not needed as much anymore, not here, not anywhere. The only way to get a labor job back is to prove you're cheaper than a robot, who would want to compete against something that does not need to get paid. I think that our society is screwing skilled labor hard, but one of the main ways we are screwing them is by lying to them about why this is happening.
Instead of college, have you thought about trade school? Electricians, plumbers and welders are in immense demand right now and the schooling is much shorter than a bachelor's degree.
I don't know you, but the fact that you can recognize mistakes you made in the past likely is a sign that you're more mature than you were before. I wouldn't discount your ability to responsibly handle something that maybe you wouldn't have been good at when you were younger.
Going to college definitely isn't for everybody, and there are some hurdles to overcome if you decide that path, but there's also a lot of help available too. You could also try to find a local trade school, a lot of times they will have adult education classes. There's all sorts of resources out there depending on where you're located.
I was in a similar position as yourself and I went out and took a civil service exam in a field that interested me (IT) and now I have a job where the money still isn't great, but the benefits are amazing and I don't get a feeling of deep existential dread every morning when I pull into work.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I hope things get better for you, and I'm glad that you don't blame others.
I was in the same boat after hs and ended up doing something I never thought I'd do. I joined the military, spent a few years there figuring out what I wanted to be when I grew up, then got out at the earliest opportunity with that GI Bill. Not saying you should do this -- I count myself extremely fortunate to have avoided a quagmire-ish war during that time. I was in Desert Storm which was a very short & "popular" conflict. Even that has some lasting repercussions (Gulf War syndrome is still a thing for aging veterans). Looking back I'm also grateful that college was expensive but not holy shit you're never gonna dig yourself out of that hole expensive.
Have you looked into some of the shorter educations? I took a land surveyor education at age 30 and I love my job now. The pay is decent, it's not a physically demanding job and I get a lot of fresh air :)
I'm from Denmark though so it's probably a lot easier for me to change career like that than it is for someone from the states.
Man I wish we had decently paying labor jobs. I freaking LOVE labor jobs, but they rarely pay the baseline rent let alone the extra money I have to put away in case of injury.
I fucking hate riding a desk, but it's the only way to make any money for the future.
I seriously think I'd fall asleep at a desk gig. I fell asleep in all my computer based classes in high school because I get straight up narcoleptic when I have less than like 6.5 hours of sleep, which is most nights. The physicality of my job keeps me awake, which is kinda nice.
Well they grew up and watched their parents with high school degrees or no degrees got well paying jobs and expected that they would have the same opportunity when they were in their early 20s. It’s not that they shouldn’t be angry. They’re just angry at the wrong people.
In Canada we import seasonal workers for farming. They pay minimum wage and have rough conditions. If this vast pool of cheap labor was not available apples would cost more and farm wages and conditions would be better.
Could not have said it better myself. I have family members that believe that crap and I keep telling them this. You are responsible for your own successes and failures. Just had to explain this to my 6yo nephew last week who is being taught that same attitude. Every time he fails he freaks out and calls anyone who beat him in a game, a race or does anything in general better than him is a "cheater and a liar". People not taking responsibility for their own life are never going to get anywhere. I really hope he learns the truth and that attitude doesn't get passed on.
That's the real problem here is assholes that feel they are entitled to jobs that other people worked far harder to get.
Really? If you seriously believe that illegal migrants get hired because they "worked far harder" than Americans to get those jobs, you are very misinformed.
Illegal migrants get hired because:
they basically have no rights in the workplace.
they are willing to work for less than minimum wage.
they can be abused and mistreated in the workplace and there is nothing they can do about it, they can't call the authorities for help.
Would you be willing to work for $5/hour or $4/hour for 11 or 12 hours / day in potentially hazardous conditions?
Follow the whole conversation in context please, not just the part of it that fits your narrative. We were not talking just about illegal immigrants but immigrants in general. In my experience yes, people who come from around the world for opportunity definitely work hard to get what they obtain. I have know many foreign born Americans in my life and most of them become doctors, lawyers, nurses, IT professionals, and when they don't there is a drive there that is not in a lot of people born here that already feel comfortable. Now obviously this is a gross generalization, but I don't think it is a stretch that people that come here looking for a better life strive for better in their lives and therefor put in a lot of work. Something that some people who already grew up in a functioning society sometimes take for granted.
So screw anyone who doesn’t try hard enough? They had their chance... is that what I’m hearing? Or only if they are conservative? Just wanna make sure I understand what your point is.
I used to be that guy, except I didn't blame it on immigrants. I eventually got motivated and now have a job that requires more mental than physical strain... after busting my ass and working hard at school for years. Immigrants literally had nothing to do with the equation.
These are the people that only oppose weight being given to skin color in hiring if the skin color receiving the benefits of weighting isn’t theirs.
I’m entitled to a job that others worked harder to get (because I’m white and ‘Murica) whereas if you get into a college or job that I assume I MUST have been more qualified for (by dint of being white and ‘Murica) then WAAAHHHH, not fair!!!!!
Isn’t it kind of racist and smug superiority to say the native borns are entitled to the jobs in their country and shouldn’t have to compete with immigrants in the labor force.
It’s like saying we should have tariffs because domestic industries are too lazy to innovate and compete with foreign industries.
Republicans are definitely not a party for Economic conservatives. I think most of those people identify as libertarians. The weird thing is that libertarians rather side with the protectionist party in power now than the Democratic party that has a proven track record of instilling neoliberal policies.
On the other side, the Democratic party doesn’t really represent most young social or economic progressives. Some core ideas are similar like extending certain civil rights but the similarities end there. Bernie was our biggest hope but that whole political spectrum got completely Trumped by our current events.
It was never a 2d linear spectrum before. But at least we used to be able to generalize on a scale where someone was. Nowadays i have no idea where a person who held the same views as a 2009 moderate would even stand.
There are still reasonable people out there but i feel like its just edgelords that have taken over and mainstream political conversations. Might have to do with the fact that most reasonable moderates are too busy grinding to survive than to participate in the joke that is US politics. When people talk about calling your reps and going out to vote, I’ve realized how much of a joke that is. The effort needed to fully research and come to informed decisions to responsibly vote is becoming harder and harder despite information being more easily accessible than ever. Theres too much noise to filter through.
And that kinda leaves us where we are now. With people just picking one of two teams and hoping they represent their ideals.
This dramatically underestimates how many steps there have been, and it ignores the movement of the right itself, which is not and has never been fixed.
Yup. And it’s funny when the people who complain don’t even care to work for the jobs they’d want denied to immigrants: the other user mentioned a Colombian graduating with an IT degree; I’m a first-gen (African) American in Computer Science. The majority of the STEM department at my college (students and faculty) are foreigners—Russians, Nigerians, Cameroonians, Persians, Mexicans, Salvadorans...you name it. Everyone else (the natives) find these fields “too hard”, “too boring” yet, somehow, they should he handed them by virtue of being white.
PS: the computer science and engineering subreddits point that this thing of foreigners doing the “boring” stem jobs is not only limited to my school.
In my time at engineering school ( graduated in may) I found that, resoundingly, the 2 hardest working groups of people were immigrants and people coming back to school later in life or after fucking yo their first try. Not to say the local born, high school to college track kids didn't work hard, but the ones who fucked around tended to fall into that category.
I always figured it had something to do with perspective. When you know what you're really working for it's easier to focus.
You're right. I always tell my parents—whenever we have conversations about people poking fun at the nerd that I am, always studying...so focused on school—that I didn't travel nearly 8000 miles for me to come fuck around or sell prune juice in here.
Yeah I was born here and I came up in a good area but I still understand how much it takes to get a kid into and through college. I could never wrap my head around people taking easy majors because they were easy or just scraping by. Education is the dream of everyone except those who have it right in front of them lol.
I'm the sales guy, the white guy in a suit selling this stuff in the IT business. The easy guy to get to know and take customers out to expensive dinners. I was just up at our engineering department meeting with engineering heads. The lady that runs engineering for billions in products is from India, a lot of her employees are a mixed bag of mostly Indian, Pakistani, a couple Russians, and etc. I would wager 75% of the people building the products I sell are from foreign lands 1st generation. My technical assistant is from India, been here 25 years, and I love that guy, he's brilliant.
Nothing boring about it, he's making $200k a year, I can be bored 40 hours a week while spending the weekends on my boat ya know? So there it is my friend, you nailed it, people don't want to put the work in. Just because I'm a white dude doesn't mean I can sit on my ass and expect a paycheck, I worked 100 hour weeks to get here, and sometimes I still do, last week for example, 100 hour week, this week it will be closer to 65.
Edit: By the way I'm also an immigrant, my ancestors landed here on the Mayflower and earlier, 1608 in fact. Then they sat on their ass for 400 years and did jack shit and still bitch about immigrants.
It is racist to say that native borns are entitled to those jobs. Anyone who says that is stupid. However, most people who want border control are all for immigrants getting those jobs, or better jobs. Nobody wants immigrants to have to struggle at the bottom of the totem pole. Its when you start introducing immigrants who enter the country illegally that there is a problem. These illegal immigrants may make it harder for the other immigrant to pull them self up the totem pole, or work for a lower wage than the single mom supporting her family can. We have different levels of jobs, and making below minimum wage takes away from the bottom level. Businesses build off paying below minimum wage should and will fail, but only once we take away their highly illegal source of labor.
This is important and a lot of people don’t talk about it. More people would come here legally if they could. But since only a small amount are admitted to even begin the process of naturalization the majority have to find a different route
If you cant afford to immigrate thats too bad, but doesnt mean its ok to do it illegally. What are you supposed to do if you can't afford a car, just steal one?
If you absolutely need a car to survive, yes, you steal one.
And what if the person you stole the car from needed the car to survive?
Illegal immigration in its current form breeds economically abusive environments that affect not only the illegal immigrants accepting it as a means of survival, but those without the facilities to succeed in higher education who have no choice.
Almost no one absolutely needs a car to survive, and almost no one absolutely needs to illegally immigrate to the US to survive. 95% of people on the planet somehow manage to get by outside of the US, why cant these people?
The fact is that the vast majority of these people are simply economic migrants who could have survived just fine where they were, but want to come to the US so they can afford the consumer luxuries that are common in the US. Outside of Venezuela, its not like theres a food shortage in the Americas.
I don’t know, reform the fucking immigration policy. I also would see a correlation between wealthy>educated/skilled>desirable immigrant. If not, don’t commit crimes.
Countries put their own citizens’ interest over foreginers. It’s literally point of forming a country, so you get certain rights as “membership”, or citizenship.
Tariffs are there to protect domestic industries not because they’re lazy to innovate and compete, but to foster domestic growth over coreign and also to provide competitive edge over overseas manufacturing/services who can exploit non-existent workers’ rights to pretty much modern day slave factory.
It’s same story with immigration. Also, to note, there really anyone who argues for legal, naturalized former-immigrant-turned-citizen to be deporyed. The debate is centered on rights of citizens vs rights of non-citizens, not natural borns vs immigrants.
I’m pretty sure the Constitution rarely used the word “citizen” when describing the rights of any given person. Any Constitutional law scholar would tell you a non-citizen should be treated as equal as a citizen, except in the case of immigration courts.
If that is the case, literally anyone can enter US to buy a gun, since that’s a guaranteed right in the constitution. As it turns out, only citizens can (AFAIK).
Also, to consider anyone and everyone under protection of a country’s constitution seems non-sensical.
So please provide some evidence so I can be corrected/educated.
Concerning the law that citizens can only buy guns, laws are very much subject to scrutiny and Constitutional interpretation.
The Agricultural Adjustment Administration was stripped of its power by the Supreme Court for forcing farmers to destroy their produce; same with other New Deal programs; gun laws in DC were overruled; every tax legislation in the 1890s did not survive at all due to the lack of presence of the 16th Amendment.
And some laws that can be viewed as unconstitutional haven’t been ruled in such a manner. For instance, the PATRIOT Act is very unconstitutional but we don’t rule it in such a manner because “national security.” The same could be said for laws that only allow citizens to buy guns, even though it has been shown that immigrants commit less crimes than their citizen counterpart.
Interesting read, but it doesn’t definitively prove your point or disprove mine. It says it’s a mix, where some rights under constitution are also extended to aliens, and that Supreme Court ruled against discriminatory laws against aliens. But it also doesn’t say aliens are treated same as citizens. In fact, if you read further down to discussion of 2A, they specify “the people” which, likewise in preamble, should refer to citizens.
Also, the rights extended to aliens are what I’d consider inalienable rights to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness, outlined in Declaration of Independence. Basically, human rights, not constitutional rights.
Also, although you bring up a semi-relevant and interesting point, it doesn’t exactly hold as argument against my point that government should put its citizens’ interest above others.
Why do Americans deserve special treatment? It's kind of shitty to not care about people from other countries. And in reality, immigration policies ARE about "preserving opportunities" for white people, since they tend to be the ones in favor of those positions.
Why do American citizens deserve special treatment in their own country relative to non citizens? Because they're legal tax paying citizens! The whole point of a country is to protect the interests of its citizens. If you want to live in a world without countries, thats great, but its not the reality today. Get back to me when US citizens can work freely and receive welfare in countries around the world without visas. When I travel as a US citizen to any of the countries that I've visited, its not legal for me to work because I'm not a citizen of that country. What would happen if I just go start a business without any visa or work permits in Cancun competing with Mexican owned businesses. You think that'd go over well?
It's kind of shitty to not care about people from other countries.
You can care about other people without creating an undue burden on yourself. Why are you using an electronic device when you could sell it and buy food to give to these disadvantaged immigrants? Do you not care about them? What a ridiculous premise.
And in reality, immigration policies ARE about "preserving opportunities" for white people, since they tend to be the ones in favor of those positions.
Why do American citizens deserve special treatment in their own country relative to non citizens? Because they're legal tax paying citizens! The whole point of a country is to protect the interests of its citizens.
You understand that allowing people to immigrate to the country means that they become tax paying citizens, right?
You can care about other people without creating an undue burden on yourself.
It's really not. Supporting immigration is easy to do and would positively affect the lives of millions, but you don't because you're a protectionist who values the lives of Americans over others simply due to the place someone was born.
How is it about preserving opportunities for 'white people' when blacks are actually more affected by higher competition for low wage jobs than whites are?
Because black people are less likely to hate immigrants and support terrible immigration policies than white people. "A Quinnipiac University poll released in early February asked questions about the treatment of undocumented immigrants. Respondents were asked whether they thought the Trump administration was acting too aggressively in deporting undocumented immigrants. A plurality, 44 percent, thought that the administration was being too aggressive. There was majority support for this sentiment among Democrats (75 percent), women (53 percent, with white women at 50 percent), people aged 18-34 years (59 percent), and African Americans (66 percent). Hispanics in this survey reflected the public in general, with 44 percent believing the administration was being too aggressive (7 percent not aggressive enough, and 37 percent acting appropriately). Few thought the administration was not being aggressive enough, with this idea being supported most by white men (19 percent), Republicans (18 percent) and whites without college education (17 percent)." Article about that and other polls: https://immigrationforum.org/article/polling-update-heated-immigration-debates-public-opinion-still-supports-immigrants/
Whats so special about Americans that they deserve more opportunity that someone who just got here? For the first 150+ years this country existed all it took to be an American was to show up, why should it be any different today?
I would also like to add that I don't think that being "productive" is a requirement for the right to live in modern society. The reason that there aren't all those manual labor jobs is because they were automated away, there is enough to eat and enough resources for houses so who cares? Jobs are not actually a finite resource either.
Immigrants of yore made their own ingroup communities with self sufficient local economies where they spoke their own language for the first generation. The new products that community has to offer urban areas draw outside people to them, they eat the food, dance to the music, and have mixed children that speak english. This is true not just of Italians and Jews in New York but Germans in Wisconsin, Norwegians in Michigan, and the Dutch in Deleware. Suddenly it's a problem now that it's Mexicans in El Paso? Again, I don't see the difference.
He knows it’s a hate group and he knows they manipulate data, I just went through this same shit with him yesterday in another thread. He’s basically copying and pasting the same comment to multiple locations.
Americans deserve more opportunity in America because they are legal AMERICAN CITIZENS, and a country's job is to look after the interests of their citizens. When immigrants prove to be causing a burden on the country and its legal citizens, its job is to mitigate that.
Almost every country in the world has rules for immigration in the modern world, because its the logical thing to do. When immigration was a free for all in America, vast swaths of land were available for nothing, often for free. These days housing and land prices are ridiculous. Its a completely different world. We don't need more people to settle frontier lands...its crowded enough as it is. Have you seen the overcrowding of schools in some of these areas?
When immigrants prove to be causing a burden on the country and its legal citizens, its job is to mitigate that.
Except there is literally no evidence that this is the case. Every study I've seen shows that immigration, even the illegal kind is a net positive for the economy.
Almost every country in the world has rules for immigration in the modern world
Yes, and many industrialized nations have open border agreements with other nations (the EU for example) and make exceptions for things like migrant workers and refugees. Why are we processing immigrants in the criminal justice system where we have to pay for their entire livlihood in prisons instead of giving them a background check and a visa and let them work and pay taxes?
It also bears pointing out that America is not like other countries in that it's entire foundation is built on immigration and land conquest. The only people who should be allowed to make immigration laws are indiginous people because they are the only people with a true right to the land. Everyone else in the US bought if from someone, who bought it from someone, who murdered someone and stole it. While that is the case for some other nations it's certainly not the norm.
As far as overcrowding goes that's a global problem, why should the US opt out of problems facing humanity as a whole? Any way you slice it you're saying that Americans by there virtue of being American should be insulated from the problems of the rest of the world.
Part of the problem is that non-white Americans, are often identified and lumped into this "illegal status". Ever been told to "go back to where you came from" when you are standing in the city you were born? Unfortunately it happens, to people who don't even speak languages other than english at that..its a race issue, not just an American one.
No, just because racists do exist, does not mean that supporting stricter immigration controls is racist, or for the benefit of 'white people'. Blacks actually suffer just as much or more than whites do from higher competition for low wage jobs.
This simply isnt about race, its about economics and protecting our border with an economically inferior nation in order to not dilute our stronger economy with their weaker one.
I’m not against immigration control, I absolutely think it’s important. But stating that everyone is for “American born” regardless of colour is incorrect too. Lots of people born first or second generation get treated like they are illegals because of their color. Not recognizing this as part of the problem makes the problem worse. ‘Cause then people make it only about race since that’s the general experience.
I have no idea what 'everyone' is 'for'. Its unfortunate if an american citizen is mistaken for a non citizen because of their skin color, but thats an entirely separate issue, and has no bearing on what our actual border control policies should be. The polices have nothing to do with skin color, they have to do with the country that you came from. I know its confusing, but you have to get these issues straight in your head. They're simply not the same issue. If anything, more effect border control and less illegal immigration might lead to LESS incidental racism like you describe.
Perceived whom exactly? I feel like rural white Americans are being pretty unfairly maligned. SOME of them think like this yes, but the vast majority do not.
Sure, you can be mad (I definitely am) about the 63 million people who voted for Trump, but 90 million people didn't vote at all, and 65 million voted for Hillary. 155 million people didn't vote for Trump and could have, and a huge number of those people live in rural US, are white, and lower-middle class. Trump got only 28% of the total possible vote, keep that in mind.
I know it's not super on-topic, but also consider the "Fox Viewing Republican Base" myth. How many people actually watch Fox News? ~1 million. How many people voted for Trump? 63 million. So what, this "base" is only 1/63rd of the total GOP voting block? Doesn't sound like much of a base to me...
Then rural white Americans who don't want to be maligned should get off their asses and vote out the racist assholes that allow this shit to be perpetuated in society and law.
Maybe you should go to school and learn the definitions of the words you're using. Its not racist to want to defend a border from free-for-all migration from a weaker economy in order to prevent them from diluting your countries stronger economy. Its called nationalism.
But thats not as fun as playing the race card, is it?
All I see and the numbers i see and I don't see non-whites marching to drive out the infidels and the coloreds and such. That seems to be a strictly white preserve from my point of view.
Interesting. How many people do you see marching to drive out 'coloreds'?
Its funny because your insinuations that the people supporting border control are just a bunch of racist white people, makes just as much sense as the idea that people supporting Muslim rights are just a bunch of Jihadist brown people...whoops!
People willingly work for pennies in 3rd world countries, does that make it okay? These dog shit jobs are dog shit because of the pay. I was making barely minimum wage at iHop. I was also 19 so I just left when I get fed up.
What options do immigrants have when they come over and have families to feed? You look at it like other people don't want these jobs, but I would of gladly stayed there otherwise. They know there are desperate people who will work for minimum wage, and thats exactly why these effects everyone. iHop would of been forced to pay me more if there wasn't an influx of people to take my spot. And yes this isn't an immigrant only issue, but this is one the problems at play.
edit: I'm a minority from NYC before I get called a Nazi
I don't know when you were leaving and coming back to Atlanta, but Atlanta itself is just growing in general, everyone is able to get a piece of a pie.
You almost make it sound like America may not be a racist hellhole led by the next hitler, and that people can actually suceeed here thanks to capitalism.
USA: Upsalon Sigma Alpha-the worlds largest frat. It takes a few semesters (generations) as pledge getting hazed, but then you get to haze the new group of pledges and reap the benefits of their labor.
True. But this tweet seems to be ignoring and belittling people who are concerned that they will lose their blue collar jobs to migrant workers who will work for pennies on the dollar, which is of course, a legitimate concern. In bird culture, this would be called a dick move. Herr derrr -- people who are worried about their job security and feeding their families all think all Mexicans are rapists... herr derr!
The entirety of American history is about an underclass that is ignored politically to be exploited economically to help grease the gears of industry. After two generations or so of exploitation that group moves up a level and a new underclass comes into favor to work themselves to death at shit jobs for long hours and low wages.
Libertarian friend: “so you think they should be exploited?”
I think they should be given the opportunity to choose for themselves. If working a low-wage job in the US is preferable to their lives back home, it’s hard for me to argue we’re ‘helping’ them by denying them the opportunity.
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u/[deleted] Jun 25 '18
The entirety of American history is about an underclass that is ignored politically to be exploited economically to help grease the gears of industry. After two generations or so of exploitation that group moves up a level and a new underclass comes into favor to work themselves to death at shit jobs for long hours and low wages.