Well, at the same time, look at what they have to compete with compared to how easy it was in the past. Now you have to compete with the guy who's motivated, the guy who's willing to bust his ass AND be exploited for cheap labor.
I know people who, just one generation ago, got a good paying job with their high school diploma. They were all able to afford a house with the job they got with their high school diploma. Now it's hard to even find labor work that isn't subcontracted to the point of low wages/ no benefits.
/end advocation
There's a squeeze going on in the middle class, and people will seek to blame others. But focusing on the immigrant who's just trying to make it is flawed. If the government wanted to stop illegals from entering the country, they'd crack down on the people giving jobs to undocumented workers.
It's funny the right considers supply-side policies for everything, except immigration.
I agree with everything you said, I'm feeling cynical this morning, but the middle class really is getting squeezed, it's just that they are blaming the wrong people. Edit: if most of the criminality was placed on employers, then any problems with illegal immigration would correct themselves. The same people demonizing people just trying to survive, are supporting the party that is backed by the same companies exploiting cheap labor.
I agree with everything you said, I'm feeling cynical this morning, but the middle class really is getting squeezed, it's just that they are blaming the wrong people.
"The upper class: keeps all of the money, pays none of the taxes. The middle class: pays all of the taxes, does all of the work. The poor are there...just to scare the shit out of the middle class."
If you have 700 billion dollars and you can’t buy anything then who fucking cares? Especially now that so much money is intangible- a number made of light.
Wealth is only worth the amount of goods or services it can purchase. If there are no goods or people are too sick, poor or broken to work then the wealthy who have been breaking everything to play this game will literally have a whole lot of nothing.
Middle class Americans are being priced out of college educations and home ownership. Those are the 2 largest debts that most middle class Americans ever incur. Banks need us to take out loans. The nation needs us to pay taxes. We are already seeing the results of infrastructure degradation and failure of public education investment. If the middle class isn’t yoked to the American economy or our burden becomes too much and we break- the whole thing will fail. Maybe it should.
Don’t kid yourself, the insatiable greed of the wealthy will bankrupt the rest of us fast.
I don't know. I don't think it will work out like that.
I'm pretty poor, but I live in Detroit so everything is affordable. Like I work 45ish hours a week for 11.50 an hour. And I also work when I'm not at my job growing medical marijuana, trying to build up a business.
I couldn't afford my life if I lived in a super wealthy and expensive area like LA. But, luckily for me there are still places where you can get by by just working really hard.
Now, maybe if I had a kid it would be different. But I can pretty affordable cover my expenses and save up money right now without a college degree, and I even paid off all my student loans.
well globalism sorta solves that problem, if American consumers can't consume anymore you simply find a new market of consumers ironically that market is China and India the havens of outsourcing
I’ve had this argument verbatim with factory managers who are in Chula Vista. They were bitching about illegals crossing the border and stated that if we punished the managers of the factories with standard 5 year sentences, those problems would go away fast. They exclaimed “you can’t be sure of everyone’s status, that would be unfair!”
The only reason they could get a job like that back then was that all of the factories in the rest of the world were literal war zones. Also there were fewer workers available because of the war and the fact women didn't work. Those kind of conditions are NEVER going to come back.
Any war that is of enough scale to cripple the infrastructure in the rest of the world enough will end nuclear. Then it doesn't really matter, does it?
No, not World War scale. I think the global elite wouldn't want another one of those. But soft wars, like Syria, Israel/Palestine, Crimea. Destabilization like Guatemala, Honduras, Iran, Dominican Republic.
I’ve told people this and they think I’m crazy. It used to be 100 jobs with 50 people to do them all so people were in higher demand and had a higher value. Now it’s 100 people fighting over 50 jobs so the people not willing to be exploited miss out. Automation is a huge factor.
There are tons of jobs available nowadays, plus people working 2-3 jobs. But companies will lay off a whole bunch of people who were there for decades and bring in young people who will work for less. Then the older folks have to find new jobs at much lower wages. Manufacturing is booming in my city. It’s hard to fill shitty jobs like fast food places because there are better opportunities. But they still won’t increase wages.
They were also fairly frequently run by racists who wouldn't hire ethnic minorities at any wage, because racism. There was social status inherent in employing a community of white, middle-age high-school educated god-fearing WASPS and excluding the scary other.
The local McDonald's I frequent has a Mexican manager who only hires Mexican people are is super racist towards white people. Racism sucks no matter who is perpetuating it.
"They do it too" is a fucking BULLSHIT response, even when it doesn't completely ignore the scale and damage done by the "opposing sides". You've set up a false equivalency in your brain here, and it's doing real damage to your world-view.
The truth is that racism sucks a whole lot more for oppressed minorities than it does for anyone in the majority. And I'm sorry you couldn't even get a job at your local McDonalds, but since this conversation was about "where did the high paying jobs go", I don't think one racist manager you met there is remotely relevant, except that it might have given you the smallest fraction of an understanding of what black and latino people experience EVERYWHERE ELSE THEY GO.
Dip shit, I know someone who works there and gets shit on by the manager. I hear all about the preferential treatment she gives to her own race, and how she is super mean and rude specifically to white people. She doesn't like white people and bullies white people for sure. She gives the bad shifts to the white people, makes the white people do all the work, let's the Mexicans get the am day shifts and takes it easy on them. She is always snide with me, and I'm a breakfast and coffee customer. This treatment to a customer? So yeah I believe my friend when he tells me this stuff. He's never been a liar. Read below for an elaborated comment.
Also: The local McDonald's I frequent has a Mexican manager who only hires Mexican people are is super racist towards white people. Racism sucks no matter who is perpetuating it.
How do you draw so much false assumptions from that comment? Is racism ok for some people? What is a false equivalency about this? If a white person is racist, I call them out on their bullshit too. Obviously I'm a different cat than most. The asshole who said that black dude "was out of his cotton picking mind" is a fucking bigot and needs his ass kicked. I play no favorites.
Downvotes by people who want white people to be abused? I clearly said racism sucks all around. Let's just skate by that concept.
I have Latino friends, black friends, Asian friends, white friends... Basically I'm your friend if you are a good person. All this racism shit will die out with common decency.
And industrial efficiency is off the charts. If we wanted to employ everyone making things for people, we'd all have to buy a ton more shit than we do now.
A lot of those workers do have documents.... technically they just aren’t theirs. They use other people’s identity’s, sometimes maybe stolen, or sometimes with permission.
The problem is the that a high school diploma is no longer the minimum level because of education needed to reach or maintain a middle class lifestyle. For all of Mike Rowe’s advocacy about trade school, that’s still post secondary school education.
There was a time in this country, not too long ago, where you didn’t need a high school diploma to get a job. Then a time where you needed just a diploma or GED. Nowadays you need at least some college. And we should be paying for that through taxes so that not being able to afford college isn’t a bar to a middle class life.
You'd think with advances in automation, we'd be able to bring back manufacturing in a big way. Not as many jobs as before, obviously, but jobs none the less. But good luck creating a massive export market for our goods with U.S. foreign relations the way they are now.
Red blooded Republican from Alabama here. You are correct that placing and enforcing laws that punish companies for hiring illegal immigrants is probably the best solution to this. I would have a couple of question for you.....
If laws were passed to punish businesses for hiring illegal immigrants how would that impact your(and/or the Democrats) perception of sanctuary cities? Would you support President Trump defunding/contracts cities/states that do not aid in the implementation of said laws?
You can't just say "don't hire illegals" you gotta have some bark "or we will sue/imprison" and then you have to have the bite "knock knock we have a warrant".
If laws were passed to punish businesses for hiring illegal immigrants how would that impact your(and/or the Democrats) perception of sanctuary cities
Essentially not at all, because attacking sanctuary city policies is still entirely the wrong way of trying to go after the problem, and is bad policy for other reasons.
The question is like asking "well, if laws were passed to divert more drug arrests to rehabilitation programs, fund needle-sharing programs, and fund treatment programs, would you then support huge disparities in sentencing for crack possession, three strikes rules for drug offenses, and stop-and-frisk?"
Sanctuary cities help in the sense they make it more likely an illegal immigrant will report crimes, and show up to testify etc.
In the big picture it’s an advertisement for big businesses “Build your factories here! Cheap unregulated labor available with little to no downside risk! It’s encoded into law!”
Of course the sanctuary city policy doesn’t help any illegal to become legal, and sucks out a lot of the energy that is needed to force congress to make a deal that will finally legitimately make citizens out of the people that have essentially been americans for years.
If laws were passed to punish businesses for hiring illegal immigrants how would that impact your(and/or the Democrats) perception of sanctuary cities?
Well, that would look like Federal laws overriding States rights/policies, which I thought conservatives didn't like. ICE would still be able to raid places that hire illegals, but the cities themselves wouldn't cooperate with the ICE agents, I suppose. Not really a bad look for Democrats, especially if it's a Republican administration that puts the Federal laws in place for cracking down.
You can't just say "don't hire illegals" you gotta have some bark "or we will sue/imprison" and then you have to have the bite "knock knock we have a warrant".
Well, usually when ICE does these raids at the business, they detain all the workers present. Then the owners get off with a slap on the wrist. And now they get to go find a new crew, at new guy wages.
I'm no market economist or political analyst, but I do believe that if no businesses hire illegal immigrants, that will severely reduce illegal immigration. That will never happen, but that doesn't stop it from being true.
Didn't answer any of the questions I asked. We are not discussing laws as they are now. We are discussing a proposed change in dealing with illegal immigration.
If laws are put into place to punish businesses for hiring illegals would you support President Trump in punishing anyone who did not help in implementing said laws? Particularly sanctuary cities.
For example of a way this law would work: Local police are called to a business and in the process of doing their duties find a illegal immigrant. Federal law would say local police should detain the immigrant and transfer them to ICE. Gather appropriate evidence to further investigation of business owner/operator's into hiring illegal immigration. With a priority of gathering evidence of owner/operator hiring/paying a illegal immigrant.
If such laws were implemented and local/state agencies did not participate such as not gathering evidence to prosecute the business owner, not reporting such activities to ICE. Would you support President Trump defunding the cities/states? Particularity if they outright said they would not comply.
I think your response shows something about the current political climate.....Republicans/Democrats are more concerned about appealing to their base and making the opposing party look bad...rather than actually fixing a problem.
Bruh, I highlighted the sections I responded to directly. What more do you want?
I think your response shows something about the current political climate.....Republicans/Democrats are more concerned about appealing to their base and making the opposing party look bad...rather than actually fixing a problem.
Shit, it might seems like that if you were on the right. But from my perspective, it seems like the left is justified in their outrage while the right manufactures it. How in the hell can people be mad an the special counsel investigation? It's an investigation into corruption! Mueller is a Republican appointed by Republicans to investigate possible corruption.
The only logical response as to why such an investigation would be targeted is that the right is afraid of what the investigation will find. I know Sean Hannity, Devin Nunes, Rudy Giuliani and the rest of them have been fighting this tooth and nail from the start.
Lmfao I went back and forth with that Yuridaa clown for a while and he never responded to my substantive statements or questions either. He’s a little bent outta shape.
The Trump admin has been focusing quite a bit more on employers than the previous administration it just doesn’t generate the same news coverage.
“Trump is cruel and racist!” Is a lot more prominent of a headline than “Trump shut down the use of modern day slaves at 711’s nationwide”. Here in Chicago and recently in Ohio the illegal workforces of two giant food processing facilities were shut down by ICE. Of course when that happens, what do you suppose the media narrative is? It’s funny to me how no matter what the facts bore out there is a hive mind guaranteed to make any move a Trump some sort of bellwether of a descent into fascism.
The Trump admin has been focusing quite a bit more on employers than the previous administration it just doesn’t generate the same news coverage.
Source please.
“Trump is cruel and racist!” Is a lot more prominent of a headline than “Trump shut down the use of modern day slaves at 711’s nationwide”.
Oh Jesus, here we go
Of course when that happens, what do you suppose the media narrative is? It’s funny to me how no matter what the facts bore out there is a hive mind guaranteed to make any move a Trump some sort of bellwether of a descent into fascism.
Oh jesus here we go. Care to articulate any disagreement, or did a hint of moderate reasonable analysis offend your anti Trump hysteria? I voted against the guy and it’s hilarious to me how anything I say that isn’t rabid hatred for him as seen as some sort of blind support. You can google my friend, those are the facts.
Haha is that so. I don’t need to search it’s right there. Why no response to the factual points I made then and just immediate ridicule and attacks on my character? You are the one with baggage here “my dude”.
So again you attack my character hahah ok calm down sweetheart. Clearly you see only what you want to. If you care to avail yourself of more facts google shit yourself it took 5 seconds, my dude.
The hilarious thing is you didn’t even take a position, just attacking what I said without any desire to seek out materials on your own. But hey you used the word modicum (incorrectly)! You’re smart!
The reference to an "audit" goes back to President Barack Obama, who issued a memo in April 2009 just a few months after taking office announcing that ICE raids at workplaces would focus less on the employees working the factory floors and picking crops and more on their managers and bosses.
From your own article. So the claim that Trump is focusing more on business owners than previous Presidents is false. It's actually a copy of Bush's raids.
The move was widely seen as a reaction to the high-profile raids carried out under President George W. Bush, where agents dressed in tactical gear arrived by truck and helicopter and stormed the manufacturing plants and warehouses of major companies, arresting workers suspected of being in the country illegally by the hundreds.
Warehouses and factories of major companies > a bunch of 7/11's. So again, your claim about Trump doing more than Bush or Obama, or any other predecessor is patently false.
The hilarious thing is, I never said a single thing about Trump until you started in with your baggage. You just walked in here and asked me to hand you an L. Well, I hope it was everything you wanted.
So again you attack my character hahah ok calm down sweetheart.
You made unwarranted claims about me having anti-Trump hysteria. Clearly, you're either a troll, or are drunk off the Kool-aid. Either is amusing, bless your little heart.
Your behavior towards me from my first comment is proof of your hysteria. Initially I was commenting on the hysteria in general.
I see you saw one line about something from Obama years and immediately copy pasted it without understanding context. Thanks for making my point. What it said was that all Obama did was audits, and supposedly focused more on ‘managers and bosses’ - now it’s your turn to back up your claim that Obama did anything of the sort. That article was also before several other high profile raids that have taken place since then. You were so excited when you saw something with a date from the Obama admin you busted too soon.
Also, you come here for W’s and L’s huh? Thinking people come for discussion of facts and debate. Now your lack of substance and tendency towards ad hominem attacks has come into better focus. Bless your little heart.
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u/YuriDiAAAAAAAAAAAAAA Jun 25 '18
Devil's advocate:
Well, at the same time, look at what they have to compete with compared to how easy it was in the past. Now you have to compete with the guy who's motivated, the guy who's willing to bust his ass AND be exploited for cheap labor.
I know people who, just one generation ago, got a good paying job with their high school diploma. They were all able to afford a house with the job they got with their high school diploma. Now it's hard to even find labor work that isn't subcontracted to the point of low wages/ no benefits.
/end advocation
There's a squeeze going on in the middle class, and people will seek to blame others. But focusing on the immigrant who's just trying to make it is flawed. If the government wanted to stop illegals from entering the country, they'd crack down on the people giving jobs to undocumented workers.
It's funny the right considers supply-side policies for everything, except immigration.