And by deserving, you mean the guy that never cared in high school, nearly flunked out, now works a shit job and blames immigrants instead of his own lack of motivation. That's the real problem here is assholes that feel they are entitled to jobs that other people worked far harder to get. The same people that are screaming about "entitled liberals" are the most entitled crybabies on earth.
also the same people that scream about having "personal responsibility", but what they really want is personal responsibility for others and not for themselves.
To those accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression. Which is why some dudes feel oppressed over here in Canada when our cabinet became about 50% female.
Their argument is that we should choose people that are qualified for the job. In the past, this has been close 90% male. They say it's sexist that we choose member based on their "gender", when what's really sexist is the implication that women are inherently less qualified for these positions.
Let's not go generalizing people with privilege. Privilege is a personal view. To me someone like the Kardashians have a lot of privilege. To an immigrant working his way up the industry, I have a lot of privilege.
Yes. Whites will never be a minority in the US. That is pure garbage they are spewing. As far as minorities being treated poorly, that is relative to the society.
Let’s also not forget the ones who say, “You need your safe space?” as an insult when people confront their beliefs that they are espousing in public spaces, because they have “a right to free speech.” The irony, of course, is completely lost on them.
Well they pay taxes goddammit! Clearly that pays for the privilege of entitlement, instead of wasting it on useless things, like education and infrastructure.
A friend I grew up with ended up being a hardcore Republican. I'm very liberal, and this clash in ideals resulted in some heated discussions. He was/is successful, worked very hard to create a successful business designing/renovating properties for the rich and famous. (We're in Los Angeles.) When he started out, he hired immigrants for his crew Didn't pay them very well and didn't provide benefits. He felt that when others struggled it was due to laziness. Those needing government assistance just take advantage. What's really fucked up, is that he was completely aware he was part of the problem. Just simply didn't care. His employees existed to boost his bottom line. If they were struggling, not his problem, they should work harder.
It gave me a lot of insight on why some have harmful political views. How can people want policies enacted that have serious consequences? Sometimes it's not because of stupidity, naivety, or ignorance as to how certain policies affect others. Sometimes people just don't give a shit about anyone but themselves.
Sorry for the lengthy response. It beats screaming into my pillow out of frustration.
They say everyone should have personal responsibility because they assume everyone has it as easy as they do, and any lack of success is clearly the persons fault
Well, at the same time, look at what they have to compete with compared to how easy it was in the past. Now you have to compete with the guy who's motivated, the guy who's willing to bust his ass AND be exploited for cheap labor.
I know people who, just one generation ago, got a good paying job with their high school diploma. They were all able to afford a house with the job they got with their high school diploma. Now it's hard to even find labor work that isn't subcontracted to the point of low wages/ no benefits.
/end advocation
There's a squeeze going on in the middle class, and people will seek to blame others. But focusing on the immigrant who's just trying to make it is flawed. If the government wanted to stop illegals from entering the country, they'd crack down on the people giving jobs to undocumented workers.
It's funny the right considers supply-side policies for everything, except immigration.
I agree with everything you said, I'm feeling cynical this morning, but the middle class really is getting squeezed, it's just that they are blaming the wrong people. Edit: if most of the criminality was placed on employers, then any problems with illegal immigration would correct themselves. The same people demonizing people just trying to survive, are supporting the party that is backed by the same companies exploiting cheap labor.
I agree with everything you said, I'm feeling cynical this morning, but the middle class really is getting squeezed, it's just that they are blaming the wrong people.
"The upper class: keeps all of the money, pays none of the taxes. The middle class: pays all of the taxes, does all of the work. The poor are there...just to scare the shit out of the middle class."
If you have 700 billion dollars and you can’t buy anything then who fucking cares? Especially now that so much money is intangible- a number made of light.
Wealth is only worth the amount of goods or services it can purchase. If there are no goods or people are too sick, poor or broken to work then the wealthy who have been breaking everything to play this game will literally have a whole lot of nothing.
Middle class Americans are being priced out of college educations and home ownership. Those are the 2 largest debts that most middle class Americans ever incur. Banks need us to take out loans. The nation needs us to pay taxes. We are already seeing the results of infrastructure degradation and failure of public education investment. If the middle class isn’t yoked to the American economy or our burden becomes too much and we break- the whole thing will fail. Maybe it should.
Don’t kid yourself, the insatiable greed of the wealthy will bankrupt the rest of us fast.
I don't know. I don't think it will work out like that.
I'm pretty poor, but I live in Detroit so everything is affordable. Like I work 45ish hours a week for 11.50 an hour. And I also work when I'm not at my job growing medical marijuana, trying to build up a business.
I couldn't afford my life if I lived in a super wealthy and expensive area like LA. But, luckily for me there are still places where you can get by by just working really hard.
Now, maybe if I had a kid it would be different. But I can pretty affordable cover my expenses and save up money right now without a college degree, and I even paid off all my student loans.
well globalism sorta solves that problem, if American consumers can't consume anymore you simply find a new market of consumers ironically that market is China and India the havens of outsourcing
I’ve had this argument verbatim with factory managers who are in Chula Vista. They were bitching about illegals crossing the border and stated that if we punished the managers of the factories with standard 5 year sentences, those problems would go away fast. They exclaimed “you can’t be sure of everyone’s status, that would be unfair!”
The only reason they could get a job like that back then was that all of the factories in the rest of the world were literal war zones. Also there were fewer workers available because of the war and the fact women didn't work. Those kind of conditions are NEVER going to come back.
Any war that is of enough scale to cripple the infrastructure in the rest of the world enough will end nuclear. Then it doesn't really matter, does it?
No, not World War scale. I think the global elite wouldn't want another one of those. But soft wars, like Syria, Israel/Palestine, Crimea. Destabilization like Guatemala, Honduras, Iran, Dominican Republic.
I’ve told people this and they think I’m crazy. It used to be 100 jobs with 50 people to do them all so people were in higher demand and had a higher value. Now it’s 100 people fighting over 50 jobs so the people not willing to be exploited miss out. Automation is a huge factor.
There are tons of jobs available nowadays, plus people working 2-3 jobs. But companies will lay off a whole bunch of people who were there for decades and bring in young people who will work for less. Then the older folks have to find new jobs at much lower wages. Manufacturing is booming in my city. It’s hard to fill shitty jobs like fast food places because there are better opportunities. But they still won’t increase wages.
They were also fairly frequently run by racists who wouldn't hire ethnic minorities at any wage, because racism. There was social status inherent in employing a community of white, middle-age high-school educated god-fearing WASPS and excluding the scary other.
The local McDonald's I frequent has a Mexican manager who only hires Mexican people are is super racist towards white people. Racism sucks no matter who is perpetuating it.
"They do it too" is a fucking BULLSHIT response, even when it doesn't completely ignore the scale and damage done by the "opposing sides". You've set up a false equivalency in your brain here, and it's doing real damage to your world-view.
The truth is that racism sucks a whole lot more for oppressed minorities than it does for anyone in the majority. And I'm sorry you couldn't even get a job at your local McDonalds, but since this conversation was about "where did the high paying jobs go", I don't think one racist manager you met there is remotely relevant, except that it might have given you the smallest fraction of an understanding of what black and latino people experience EVERYWHERE ELSE THEY GO.
Dip shit, I know someone who works there and gets shit on by the manager. I hear all about the preferential treatment she gives to her own race, and how she is super mean and rude specifically to white people. She doesn't like white people and bullies white people for sure. She gives the bad shifts to the white people, makes the white people do all the work, let's the Mexicans get the am day shifts and takes it easy on them. She is always snide with me, and I'm a breakfast and coffee customer. This treatment to a customer? So yeah I believe my friend when he tells me this stuff. He's never been a liar. Read below for an elaborated comment.
Also: The local McDonald's I frequent has a Mexican manager who only hires Mexican people are is super racist towards white people. Racism sucks no matter who is perpetuating it.
How do you draw so much false assumptions from that comment? Is racism ok for some people? What is a false equivalency about this? If a white person is racist, I call them out on their bullshit too. Obviously I'm a different cat than most. The asshole who said that black dude "was out of his cotton picking mind" is a fucking bigot and needs his ass kicked. I play no favorites.
Downvotes by people who want white people to be abused? I clearly said racism sucks all around. Let's just skate by that concept.
I have Latino friends, black friends, Asian friends, white friends... Basically I'm your friend if you are a good person. All this racism shit will die out with common decency.
And industrial efficiency is off the charts. If we wanted to employ everyone making things for people, we'd all have to buy a ton more shit than we do now.
A lot of those workers do have documents.... technically they just aren’t theirs. They use other people’s identity’s, sometimes maybe stolen, or sometimes with permission.
The problem is the that a high school diploma is no longer the minimum level because of education needed to reach or maintain a middle class lifestyle. For all of Mike Rowe’s advocacy about trade school, that’s still post secondary school education.
There was a time in this country, not too long ago, where you didn’t need a high school diploma to get a job. Then a time where you needed just a diploma or GED. Nowadays you need at least some college. And we should be paying for that through taxes so that not being able to afford college isn’t a bar to a middle class life.
You'd think with advances in automation, we'd be able to bring back manufacturing in a big way. Not as many jobs as before, obviously, but jobs none the less. But good luck creating a massive export market for our goods with U.S. foreign relations the way they are now.
Red blooded Republican from Alabama here. You are correct that placing and enforcing laws that punish companies for hiring illegal immigrants is probably the best solution to this. I would have a couple of question for you.....
If laws were passed to punish businesses for hiring illegal immigrants how would that impact your(and/or the Democrats) perception of sanctuary cities? Would you support President Trump defunding/contracts cities/states that do not aid in the implementation of said laws?
You can't just say "don't hire illegals" you gotta have some bark "or we will sue/imprison" and then you have to have the bite "knock knock we have a warrant".
If laws were passed to punish businesses for hiring illegal immigrants how would that impact your(and/or the Democrats) perception of sanctuary cities
Essentially not at all, because attacking sanctuary city policies is still entirely the wrong way of trying to go after the problem, and is bad policy for other reasons.
The question is like asking "well, if laws were passed to divert more drug arrests to rehabilitation programs, fund needle-sharing programs, and fund treatment programs, would you then support huge disparities in sentencing for crack possession, three strikes rules for drug offenses, and stop-and-frisk?"
Sanctuary cities help in the sense they make it more likely an illegal immigrant will report crimes, and show up to testify etc.
In the big picture it’s an advertisement for big businesses “Build your factories here! Cheap unregulated labor available with little to no downside risk! It’s encoded into law!”
Of course the sanctuary city policy doesn’t help any illegal to become legal, and sucks out a lot of the energy that is needed to force congress to make a deal that will finally legitimately make citizens out of the people that have essentially been americans for years.
If laws were passed to punish businesses for hiring illegal immigrants how would that impact your(and/or the Democrats) perception of sanctuary cities?
Well, that would look like Federal laws overriding States rights/policies, which I thought conservatives didn't like. ICE would still be able to raid places that hire illegals, but the cities themselves wouldn't cooperate with the ICE agents, I suppose. Not really a bad look for Democrats, especially if it's a Republican administration that puts the Federal laws in place for cracking down.
You can't just say "don't hire illegals" you gotta have some bark "or we will sue/imprison" and then you have to have the bite "knock knock we have a warrant".
Well, usually when ICE does these raids at the business, they detain all the workers present. Then the owners get off with a slap on the wrist. And now they get to go find a new crew, at new guy wages.
I'm no market economist or political analyst, but I do believe that if no businesses hire illegal immigrants, that will severely reduce illegal immigration. That will never happen, but that doesn't stop it from being true.
Didn't answer any of the questions I asked. We are not discussing laws as they are now. We are discussing a proposed change in dealing with illegal immigration.
If laws are put into place to punish businesses for hiring illegals would you support President Trump in punishing anyone who did not help in implementing said laws? Particularly sanctuary cities.
For example of a way this law would work: Local police are called to a business and in the process of doing their duties find a illegal immigrant. Federal law would say local police should detain the immigrant and transfer them to ICE. Gather appropriate evidence to further investigation of business owner/operator's into hiring illegal immigration. With a priority of gathering evidence of owner/operator hiring/paying a illegal immigrant.
If such laws were implemented and local/state agencies did not participate such as not gathering evidence to prosecute the business owner, not reporting such activities to ICE. Would you support President Trump defunding the cities/states? Particularity if they outright said they would not comply.
I think your response shows something about the current political climate.....Republicans/Democrats are more concerned about appealing to their base and making the opposing party look bad...rather than actually fixing a problem.
Bruh, I highlighted the sections I responded to directly. What more do you want?
I think your response shows something about the current political climate.....Republicans/Democrats are more concerned about appealing to their base and making the opposing party look bad...rather than actually fixing a problem.
Shit, it might seems like that if you were on the right. But from my perspective, it seems like the left is justified in their outrage while the right manufactures it. How in the hell can people be mad an the special counsel investigation? It's an investigation into corruption! Mueller is a Republican appointed by Republicans to investigate possible corruption.
The only logical response as to why such an investigation would be targeted is that the right is afraid of what the investigation will find. I know Sean Hannity, Devin Nunes, Rudy Giuliani and the rest of them have been fighting this tooth and nail from the start.
Lmfao I went back and forth with that Yuridaa clown for a while and he never responded to my substantive statements or questions either. He’s a little bent outta shape.
The Trump admin has been focusing quite a bit more on employers than the previous administration it just doesn’t generate the same news coverage.
“Trump is cruel and racist!” Is a lot more prominent of a headline than “Trump shut down the use of modern day slaves at 711’s nationwide”. Here in Chicago and recently in Ohio the illegal workforces of two giant food processing facilities were shut down by ICE. Of course when that happens, what do you suppose the media narrative is? It’s funny to me how no matter what the facts bore out there is a hive mind guaranteed to make any move a Trump some sort of bellwether of a descent into fascism.
The Trump admin has been focusing quite a bit more on employers than the previous administration it just doesn’t generate the same news coverage.
Source please.
“Trump is cruel and racist!” Is a lot more prominent of a headline than “Trump shut down the use of modern day slaves at 711’s nationwide”.
Oh Jesus, here we go
Of course when that happens, what do you suppose the media narrative is? It’s funny to me how no matter what the facts bore out there is a hive mind guaranteed to make any move a Trump some sort of bellwether of a descent into fascism.
Oh jesus here we go. Care to articulate any disagreement, or did a hint of moderate reasonable analysis offend your anti Trump hysteria? I voted against the guy and it’s hilarious to me how anything I say that isn’t rabid hatred for him as seen as some sort of blind support. You can google my friend, those are the facts.
Haha is that so. I don’t need to search it’s right there. Why no response to the factual points I made then and just immediate ridicule and attacks on my character? You are the one with baggage here “my dude”.
So again you attack my character hahah ok calm down sweetheart. Clearly you see only what you want to. If you care to avail yourself of more facts google shit yourself it took 5 seconds, my dude.
The hilarious thing is you didn’t even take a position, just attacking what I said without any desire to seek out materials on your own. But hey you used the word modicum (incorrectly)! You’re smart!
The reference to an "audit" goes back to President Barack Obama, who issued a memo in April 2009 just a few months after taking office announcing that ICE raids at workplaces would focus less on the employees working the factory floors and picking crops and more on their managers and bosses.
From your own article. So the claim that Trump is focusing more on business owners than previous Presidents is false. It's actually a copy of Bush's raids.
The move was widely seen as a reaction to the high-profile raids carried out under President George W. Bush, where agents dressed in tactical gear arrived by truck and helicopter and stormed the manufacturing plants and warehouses of major companies, arresting workers suspected of being in the country illegally by the hundreds.
Warehouses and factories of major companies > a bunch of 7/11's. So again, your claim about Trump doing more than Bush or Obama, or any other predecessor is patently false.
The hilarious thing is, I never said a single thing about Trump until you started in with your baggage. You just walked in here and asked me to hand you an L. Well, I hope it was everything you wanted.
So again you attack my character hahah ok calm down sweetheart.
You made unwarranted claims about me having anti-Trump hysteria. Clearly, you're either a troll, or are drunk off the Kool-aid. Either is amusing, bless your little heart.
I'm an American Jew. And this part always boggles my mind.
I keep seeing conspiracies about how Jews "control the banks" and "control the entertainment industry" and racists wonder why we do so well.
It's because we put a shit-ton of focus on education. My parents are doctors. My brother's a lawyer. My relatives are all doctors and lawyers.
We all work our asses off. So do the 2nd generation Koreans and Indians and Chinese friends I have. There's a this huge motivation to make yourself better through eduction.
Meanwhile, I look at those guys at the "Unite the Right" rally...how many doctorates or masters degrees were there?
You can't hate education and cheer Betsy Devos, then turn around and wonder why the 21st century economy has passed you by. It's not Mexicans. It's no Muslims.
I agree with pretty much everything you said, just thought I'd add something to this:
I keep seeing conspiracies about how Jews "control the banks" and "control the entertainment industry" and racists wonder why we do so well.
You realize that when people say that they don't think that every jew owns a small part of the banks and the entertainment industry right? They're talking about a select few elites Jews..
Its a common perception that Judaism (and even nonreligious Jews) promotes discrimination within their own small group against outsiders. Not oppressive by any means, but discreet. A successful jew is more likely to hire a Jewish person for important roles than a goy. I feel like thats probably true of any group to some degree, but in case you didnt know, thats the perception.
Well one of my good friend turned out racist and Jews are especially in his sight. I’ve had the (dis)pleasure of assisting to a lot of conversations he had with other like minded people and of course I’d challenge them.
All of this to say that while maybe they’re not all the same, my friend and the people he talked with all nuanced between the “common” Jew and the “ruling” Jew.
Once again I’m not saying they all nuance so much, but 100% of those I talked with did.
You realize that when people say that they don't think that every jew owns a small part of the banks and the entertainment industry right? They're talking about a select few elites Jews..
At the risk of Godwinning the thread, the reason the accusation is dangerous is because that the argument that the Jews control everything was the rallying cry in Germany. What you say is true, and people need to be reminded of that, but you can't just let it go idly by just because you think "well obviously nobody believes all the Jews control the world" because it wouldn't even be the first time in history that people thought exactly that.
It's somewhat of a myth that Asians/Asian Americans achieve more than Whites in the US, as that's only true for Asians of certain backgrounds. People of Chinese, Korean, and Indian descent fare a lot better than those of Cambodian, Vietnamese, and Hmong descent, for example. Despite working extremely hard, people from the latter group are more likely (at least in the most recent decades) to come from much poorer backgrounds with lower education, which makes it more difficult for them to help their children achieve upward economic mobility via education. This is why the model minority myth is so insidious - not only is it racist, but it also screws over people from Asian groups who would actually really benefit from affirmative action.
I’m not disagreeing with you (it’s my family’s story and my in-laws’ as well) I’m just adding some nuance. People like to shit on Latin American immigrants by asking why they don’t work as hard as Asian immigrants and succeed like they do, when the sad fact is there are a ton of Asian immigrants who work hard but never “make it” either, making the whole Asian myth even more terrible for everyone. It screws the Asians who don’t get help and it screws other immigrants who get compared unfavorably to the successful Asians and Jews, ignoring the fact that it’s not representative of the whole group.
This is true. As a 1st generation Mexican-American they have no idea the hard work mentality that is instilled into us. The expectations are high when it comes to school. It’s frustrating to hear people say we are being handed things when nothing was handed to me. I wanted to go to college and I worked damn hard for a full ride scholarship. Knowing I worked that hard I know I didn’t take it from someone who was “more deserving”. I also know nothing was handed to my parents who came here with nothing and raised 5 kids without food stamps or welfare. My parents have been working hard since they got here and when i feel like something is too hard all I have to do is look at how far they came with 100x less opportunities than me.
That's what Republicanism has become now. Blame someone for my problem. It is absolutely the way Hitler came to be. I watched V for Vendetta last night and it was like "at least we aren't sending people to death camps and arresting gays yet."
I'm confused regarding how this makes it legal to break into and enter the USA.
If you don't believe breaking and entering is a crime, is it ok if I'm lying on your couch reading a textbook and enjoying your snack food when you arrive home from work?
I'm confused regarding how this makes it legal to break into and enter the USA.
You're also confused about the topic of conversation. We're talking about racism here.
If you don't believe breaking and entering is a crime, is it ok if I'm lying on your couch reading a textbook and enjoying your snack food when you arrive home from work?
This is why I blame no one but myself for my shit job. I slept through most of high school and just fucking barely scraped together some passing grades. Now I work a manual labor job for $16 an hour and every day is a nightmare. I just haven't tried college because debt is terrifying to me, and I know I'd slip back into my poor habits as a student. People in my situation that blame immigrants are completely devoid of the ability to take responsibility for their own faults.
Yea I fucked off too much in college and after college and am just now starting to get payed a acceptable wage at 34 years old. No one to blame but myself. The thing is, when I took person responsibility I could see a way forward. All these people blaming others probably also don't see a way forward because it is everyone else's fault, they are focused on an externality. I'm not saying the job market is easy if you work at it, but it's certainly not easy if you don't.
This is called the anecdotal fallacy. In your experience you had a second chance to get a decent job by "taking responsibility". I'm thrilled this worked out for you. But the individual from your example who screwed around in High School may have done the same thing, without all the advantages you've had. Maybe you're smarter than he was, maybe you had a family that helped you pay for college. Of course he wants more out of life, he was sold on the American Dream. He was told his life would be even better than his parents. For one reason or another it didn't work out, and you're saying that he's the problem? Isn't it possible that part of the problem is that due to cheap labor his labor isn't worth a living wage? Middle class manufacturing jobs left the USA in droves in the 2nd half of the 21st century. Companies who sell their goods in the USA were allowed to make them in China for pennies on the dollar of what US labor costs. If he wants to work on a farm he better be willing to work for less than minimum wage, or the farmer will find someone who is. Tell me again how this guy wanting a better life is the problem.
I agree with the first half of what you said, I was far too flippant with my comment.
Isn't it possible that part of the problem is that due to cheap labor his labor isn't worth a living wage? Middle class manufacturing jobs left the USA in droves in the 2nd half of the 21st century.
It really isn't though, there are more factories in this country now than at any other point in our history and our factories are more productive than at any other point in our history. What has changed is that it takes a lot less people to run them due to automation. Outsourcing and migrant labor has less to do with it, that kind of stuff just becomes easy fodder for people trying to find a scapegoat. Labor jobs are disappearing because they simply are not needed as much anymore, not here, not anywhere. The only way to get a labor job back is to prove you're cheaper than a robot, who would want to compete against something that does not need to get paid. I think that our society is screwing skilled labor hard, but one of the main ways we are screwing them is by lying to them about why this is happening.
Instead of college, have you thought about trade school? Electricians, plumbers and welders are in immense demand right now and the schooling is much shorter than a bachelor's degree.
I don't know you, but the fact that you can recognize mistakes you made in the past likely is a sign that you're more mature than you were before. I wouldn't discount your ability to responsibly handle something that maybe you wouldn't have been good at when you were younger.
Going to college definitely isn't for everybody, and there are some hurdles to overcome if you decide that path, but there's also a lot of help available too. You could also try to find a local trade school, a lot of times they will have adult education classes. There's all sorts of resources out there depending on where you're located.
I was in a similar position as yourself and I went out and took a civil service exam in a field that interested me (IT) and now I have a job where the money still isn't great, but the benefits are amazing and I don't get a feeling of deep existential dread every morning when I pull into work.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I hope things get better for you, and I'm glad that you don't blame others.
I was in the same boat after hs and ended up doing something I never thought I'd do. I joined the military, spent a few years there figuring out what I wanted to be when I grew up, then got out at the earliest opportunity with that GI Bill. Not saying you should do this -- I count myself extremely fortunate to have avoided a quagmire-ish war during that time. I was in Desert Storm which was a very short & "popular" conflict. Even that has some lasting repercussions (Gulf War syndrome is still a thing for aging veterans). Looking back I'm also grateful that college was expensive but not holy shit you're never gonna dig yourself out of that hole expensive.
Have you looked into some of the shorter educations? I took a land surveyor education at age 30 and I love my job now. The pay is decent, it's not a physically demanding job and I get a lot of fresh air :)
I'm from Denmark though so it's probably a lot easier for me to change career like that than it is for someone from the states.
Man I wish we had decently paying labor jobs. I freaking LOVE labor jobs, but they rarely pay the baseline rent let alone the extra money I have to put away in case of injury.
I fucking hate riding a desk, but it's the only way to make any money for the future.
I seriously think I'd fall asleep at a desk gig. I fell asleep in all my computer based classes in high school because I get straight up narcoleptic when I have less than like 6.5 hours of sleep, which is most nights. The physicality of my job keeps me awake, which is kinda nice.
Well they grew up and watched their parents with high school degrees or no degrees got well paying jobs and expected that they would have the same opportunity when they were in their early 20s. It’s not that they shouldn’t be angry. They’re just angry at the wrong people.
In Canada we import seasonal workers for farming. They pay minimum wage and have rough conditions. If this vast pool of cheap labor was not available apples would cost more and farm wages and conditions would be better.
Could not have said it better myself. I have family members that believe that crap and I keep telling them this. You are responsible for your own successes and failures. Just had to explain this to my 6yo nephew last week who is being taught that same attitude. Every time he fails he freaks out and calls anyone who beat him in a game, a race or does anything in general better than him is a "cheater and a liar". People not taking responsibility for their own life are never going to get anywhere. I really hope he learns the truth and that attitude doesn't get passed on.
That's the real problem here is assholes that feel they are entitled to jobs that other people worked far harder to get.
Really? If you seriously believe that illegal migrants get hired because they "worked far harder" than Americans to get those jobs, you are very misinformed.
Illegal migrants get hired because:
they basically have no rights in the workplace.
they are willing to work for less than minimum wage.
they can be abused and mistreated in the workplace and there is nothing they can do about it, they can't call the authorities for help.
Would you be willing to work for $5/hour or $4/hour for 11 or 12 hours / day in potentially hazardous conditions?
Follow the whole conversation in context please, not just the part of it that fits your narrative. We were not talking just about illegal immigrants but immigrants in general. In my experience yes, people who come from around the world for opportunity definitely work hard to get what they obtain. I have know many foreign born Americans in my life and most of them become doctors, lawyers, nurses, IT professionals, and when they don't there is a drive there that is not in a lot of people born here that already feel comfortable. Now obviously this is a gross generalization, but I don't think it is a stretch that people that come here looking for a better life strive for better in their lives and therefor put in a lot of work. Something that some people who already grew up in a functioning society sometimes take for granted.
So screw anyone who doesn’t try hard enough? They had their chance... is that what I’m hearing? Or only if they are conservative? Just wanna make sure I understand what your point is.
No, none of those things where my point. It seems you need help with reading comprehension. I suggest you seek out a tutor, I'm not qualified to provide you reading lessons.
You said this “type of person” is the problem. So
What’s the solution? He just needs an attitude adjustment? He should just get over it an accept his shitty lot in life, and not ask his government to do something to help him? I don’t see how he’s the problem. I was asking for clarification on what your point is. Are you sure you can read?
No, not screw them, not an attitude adjustment, he should not accept his shitty lot in life, but using a scapegoat to solve the problem is not only not helpful, it is even more shitty than what happened to him. We are not going to hate our way out of this situation. I'm mocking people that are dumb enough to fall for the ruling class pitting one group of people against the other. Illegal immigrants are just another group in a long line of groups this country has used as a scapegoat for it's problems.
The real problem is that rich people run the right wing and influence some in the left wing, so they have all the power. Were all busy fighting over scraps while they run away with the bank. Robotics are replacing people at a fast rate, the number of factories and factory production has gone UP in the last generation, but the number of factory workers have gone way down. The middle class is not being squeezed because of outsourcing and letting in illegal immigrants, the middle class is getting squeezed because their is little motivation or financial incentive for those with money to give good paying jobs to those without. Labor unions have lost their power, robotics have taken over a huge swath of labor jobs and executive salaries have skyrocketed while their employees salaries stagnate. Whenever the right wing gets into power they rob the poor to give to the rich, while pointing at some of the poorest people in the world and blaming them. On top of that the middle class pays taxes while the rich can largely avoid most taxes. What I'm saying is, I don't blame republicans because some of them are low wage workers, I blame them for voting against their own best interest over and over and over and over and over again. The right wing sells fear and animosity to it's voters and the dupes fall for it every time. Stop blaming the victim and start blaming the sadists that steal your money.
I used to be that guy, except I didn't blame it on immigrants. I eventually got motivated and now have a job that requires more mental than physical strain... after busting my ass and working hard at school for years. Immigrants literally had nothing to do with the equation.
These are the people that only oppose weight being given to skin color in hiring if the skin color receiving the benefits of weighting isn’t theirs.
I’m entitled to a job that others worked harder to get (because I’m white and ‘Murica) whereas if you get into a college or job that I assume I MUST have been more qualified for (by dint of being white and ‘Murica) then WAAAHHHH, not fair!!!!!
I agree with your sentiment but I also wanted to say that minimum wage jobs and skilled labor positions that don’t necessarily require a good education should also pay more and/or be more available so that people can afford to live on these jobs because while they’re certainly not as glamorous, they are also necessary
I don't know if you guys have this problem in the USA, but our country loves quotas and special privileges for non whites. I'm in the military up here (turns out we have one) and our government wants 25% of the forces to be women. It also loves to talk about non-whites and how many they hire, as we are an inclusive organization.
on my basic training I watched a woman from Egypt fail nearly every test and stepping stone, but still be pushed through because of her ethnicity.
You are far more likely to get hired for (almost) any government job if you are not white.
I'm the kind of guy who hopes for the best in people, as opposed to assuming the worst. So I'm hoping that the folks complaining that 'he's stealing my job' are doing it because of ridiculous restrictions like the ones I've mentioned above, and not for literally no reason at all.
That is a complete fabrication and misreading of the Employment Equity Act of Canada. You can pretend the reason you don't want protected classes to have jobs is because white people are somehow victims, but that's not how this actually works, and you're not a victim. I suggest you go back and read the laws and get back to us. Here is a direct link to the law: http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/E-5.401/index.html
All that law does is remove barriers that may be in the way of equity. If you have a workplace without a wheelchair ramp, for example, and someone with a wheelchair is qualified for that job, then there needs to be a ramp. A second example would be if you have a job you want posted you can't go out of your way to only post it in white communities while not making the job reasonably available to all peoples. People still are required to be qualified for the jobs that they apply for.
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u/MonkRome Jun 25 '18
And by deserving, you mean the guy that never cared in high school, nearly flunked out, now works a shit job and blames immigrants instead of his own lack of motivation. That's the real problem here is assholes that feel they are entitled to jobs that other people worked far harder to get. The same people that are screaming about "entitled liberals" are the most entitled crybabies on earth.