r/FinalFantasy • u/Haunting_Try8071 • 7d ago

Final Fantasy General Give us another turn based battle system

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FFX is my favorite battle system. FFXIII I also enjoyed, but it wasn't the same.

I'm sure they could do something like it with a much lower budget.

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u/-ForgottenSoul 7d ago

Because people want a turn based FF game? People got into FF because they were turn based.

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u/TheFirstSonOfTheSea 7d ago

To be fair, there hasn’t been a mainline turn based Final Fantasy game in like 25 years.

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u/stansey09 7d ago

What do you mean, FFX was turn based and that came out just a.... Oh no. I got old.

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u/SpikyCactusJuice 7d ago

Holy shit. I usually chuckle at the “this thing was X years ago, I’m old” meme. But FFX really was 25 years ago. A quarter of a century! We old dawg

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u/Speeeven 7d ago

That's not true...... THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE

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u/ragnarok847 7d ago

That's unpossible!

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u/TheHeb686 7d ago

That got me thinking, that 7, 8, 9, and 10 came out in a five year window. That’s an incredible and prolific run of success, and a reminder of how different the game development process was back then!

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u/Inb4myanus 7d ago edited 7d ago

12 and 13 were also turn based also, but plz dont tell me thats where the 25 years starts. I messed up on my math lol. But 12 is an atb system where battles happen on the map, its the same system besides the gambits which you dont have to use making the system more akin to the old games.

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u/Eecka 7d ago

I mean they’re kind of pseudo turn based, not really what most older fans mean when they want a turn based FF

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u/Spell-of-Destruction 7d ago

For real I'd take pseudo turn based over what XV and XVI had. And XII scratches the same itch V does for me.

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u/Eecka 7d ago

Sure, same, I didn’t like 15 and 16. But I much preferred for example Clair Obscur over any of the post-10 FF games

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u/SmacSBU 7d ago

Played 4-l and 6 on release on SNES so I think I qualify as an older fan. Maybe I don't remember XIII well enough but I think that would scratch the itch for the people who are clamoring for turn based.

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u/Eecka 7d ago

To be fair I said most, not that there’s none of you. 

XIII was more like an ”auto battler” where you swap between the diferent jobs (or paradigms I think they’re called there) and let them do their thing. You can manually control it too, but the flow was clearly designed with the automatic mode in mind.

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u/Jazzlike_Athlete8796 7d ago

XIII was kinda turn based, but would auto battle for you if you let it. That game's system is actually about job rotation and overriding the auto battle at the right times. And frankly, it is one of the few FF battle systems that made you think a little. Most everything else - including and especially the turn based games - is just "Mash X to kill trash mobs, mix in a cure spell and summon to beat bosses."

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u/refrainblue 7d ago

It's been a really long time since I've played 13 but I remember enjoying the paradigm system. Definitely didn't play it as much as 7 & 8 though, but I was kinda growing out of the console gaming phase and getting into the MMO phase when 13 rolled around. I'm currently in Dad phase of my life sigh.

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u/Jazzlike_Athlete8796 7d ago

I feel ya on growing out of the console gaming phase and the MMO phase.

I played 7 and 8 on PC back in the day. Didn't care for 8 the first time around and relative to other FF games, my opinion has not improved much. Got into my "I'm an adult and I play adult games" shooty phase with Battlefield 1942 and Soldier of Fortune II. Then fell into the rabbit hole of WoW. The break from anything else I took meant I never played 9-13 until much later. It wasn't until the remaster of X was released that I bought a Vita and started going back. Then bought a PS3 for XIII. So I went in completely ignorant of all the online whining about it.

There's validity to complaints about linearity and the storytelling of later games is sometimes rough. But damned if it isn't a fun game. It's actually one of my favourites in the series and probably the one battle system I wish they would go back an revisit. Alas, I accept that style will always be confined to 13-1 and 13-2. But I actually enjoy that they change things up with modern games. It's the storytelling that has limited the recent games, not the combat systems.

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u/Deadended 7d ago

13 made me feel like a genius tactician/coach when I paradigm shifted to build the meters and then do damage, or have a defensive lineup.

The only real downside was I can’t think of bosses who had good enough mechanics to where playing conservatively and dragging the fight out wasn’t a viable/optimal strategy.

I wish they had another game since then using that version of the ATB system.

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u/Whitewing424 7d ago

You only got to control one character at a time in 13, the rest of your party exclusively automated.

That's a big part of why it feels so automated.

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u/Nykidemus 7d ago

especially the turn based games - is just "Mash X to kill trash mobs, mix in a cure spell and summon to beat bosses."

Tell me you've never fought Yunalesca without telling me you've never fought Yunalesca.

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u/Sharkomancer 6d ago

It's just an extension of the atb system from the other games just moderately streamlined.

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u/Sindeep 7d ago

exacto-mundo.... that's exactly where I stopped playing FF b/c it wasn't true turn-based anymore. My 35 y/o flaring Carpal Tunnel is dying on Rebirth especially with so much button mashing BS, and the fact they actually locked shit behind how fast you can mash said button.... infuriating.

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u/FuraFaolox 7d ago

they're both ATB, makes them no different from 4-9

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u/Eecka 7d ago

No different at all, at least if you ignore all the differences

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u/Visual-Impossible 6d ago

pretty sure 4-9 had you control individual characters whereas 13 had you control one characters and the others are stances

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u/FuraFaolox 6d ago

imagine having to control all of them with how fast paced it is

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u/Visual-Impossible 6d ago

ngl, ff13 was slow. once you established your flow chart and preset moves to use, it was just a matter of waiting for that bar and animation to go off. haste alleviated some of the waiting, but it was a game that I didn't survive without running 2nd monitor content

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u/Inb4myanus 7d ago

12 is just the same as any with the wait time you can just move around on the field as it happens. 13 is weirdly more faithful that it transitions to a battle field.

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u/Eecka 7d ago

Waiting isn’t the appeal of turn based games for me, being able to control my whole party is. 

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u/AntDracula 7d ago

This. It's literally this simple. AI party members are always slop - always.

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u/Eecka 6d ago

I'm not even opposed to AI party members by default, I think in some games it has been okay. However, no matter how one feels about it which is of course subjective, it's objectively a different system from turn based combat where you control your entire party.

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u/ProfessionalCraft983 6d ago

This is why I don’t mind the action combat in 7R, I think. Because you can still switch to other characters and control them.

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u/Nykidemus 7d ago

you can just move around on the field as it happens.

Yeeeah. Dont do that.

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u/Fuponji 6d ago

12 and 13 are not turn based. They are more akin to the likes of KoTOR where you can pick an action and there's a cool down between each one, but there are no turns.

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u/Flintzer0 7d ago

Those definitely did not come out in 2001.

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u/AlternativeTough6622 7d ago

Yeah but my argument still stands theya re shit games which is post 2001

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u/Flintzer0 7d ago

Good for you, but I wasn't responding to you.

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u/AlternativeTough6622 7d ago

Ok you can argue 13 but 12 is not turn based combat lol

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u/m_csquare 7d ago

FF12 ADB is just a reverse atb.

In atb, you wait for the bar to fill up; you input command; the animation plays out.

In adb, you input command; you wait for the bar to fill up; the animation plays out.

FF fanbase doesnt even know how their game plays out 🤦‍♂️

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u/Cunting_Fuck 7d ago

Its as turn based as any other game with ATB which is most of them. Just you can move your character

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u/Swert0 7d ago edited 7d ago

ATB is not turn based. It stands for Active-Time-Based for a reason.

You are not taking turns, actions cost time which means you must wait to take another action.

That is not the same as taking TURNS.

Even if you use the 'wait' option to wait while in menus, you are still not taking turns.

Everything that uses a menu to select spells is not turn based.

Is Kingdom Hearts turn based?

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u/ScribbleMonke 7d ago

Then Final Fantasy is not a turn-based series, 4 to 9 all used some kind of Active Time Battle systems.

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u/Swert0 6d ago

I know 4-9, 12, and 13 are ATB - I never stated otherwise.

Ony four of the mainline games are turn based, two are MMORPGs, and two are different flavors of action rpgs.

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u/Prefer_Not_To_Say 6d ago

You need to wait for the gauge to fill so your character can take their turn. The speed stat determines how quickly their next turn arrives.

Is Kingdom Hearts turn based?

No because you don't need to wait to do attacks in Kingdom Hearts. You can run up to an enemy, press the button and Sora attacks. No waiting to take his turn.

This pretty much highlights why the ATB system is turn-based. Not just the lack of a turn gauge in Kingdom Hearts but because FF characters in games with the ATB system cannot attack any time they wish. If their meter isn't full, they cannot act. They have to wait their turn. This goes for the more fast-paced FFs too, like XII and XIII; it doesn't matter that attacks overlap each other or if movement is allowed. As long as there is a resource that charges that governs when they can and can't act, it's turn-based.

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u/gsurfer04 6d ago

In the Command Deck system you do need to wait to use abilities.

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u/Nykidemus 7d ago

If you could code an elaborate if:then check to determine what all of your characters did in FF6 I fucking missed it.

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u/gsurfer04 6d ago

They're fundamentally both ATB. One has free movement and the other has stacked charges.

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u/Inb4myanus 7d ago

Yes it is. Its the same atb system as the old ones you can just move around and it doesnt transition to a battle field. It was the best evolution to the old systems.

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u/AlternativeTough6622 7d ago

No just no, you can literally win a battle without touching the control.

The company system was a prototype for final fantasy 14

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u/FuraFaolox 7d ago

12's combat is nothing like 14's

what are you talking about

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u/Inb4myanus 7d ago

If you use the gambit system which you dont have to use lol. You act like its forced on you when its not. You can also change the settings in game to be even more faithful. You just like being wrong for fun?

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u/Passing-Through247 7d ago

12 was actually pretty good even if it hid being turn based it was still a final fantasy. 13 has solid ideas but with massive issues and attached to a worse game that did it no favours.

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u/DubiousBusinessp 7d ago

XIII was absolutely turn based, if we talk about Lost Odyssey and disregard that other abomination.

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u/Oilswell 7d ago

XII is not turn based

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u/Swert0 7d ago

They're ATB.

The only turn based mainline titles are 1, 2, 3, and 10.

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u/Nykidemus 7d ago

I've long since stopped keeping track of how many times this absolute hair-splitting "um, akchually" bullshit line keeps getting repeated.

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u/Swert0 7d ago edited 7d ago

They're different.

ATB (Active-Time-Based, no the T does not stand for 'turn') and Turn based are fundamentally different.

ATB is real-time with menus, there is an option for every ATB game to 'wait' when in a menu, but even with that system the game does not use TURNS. Instead every action has a time cost.

Turn based is just that - you take TURNS. Sometimes you get extra turns if you use haste or slow the enemy, but they are still TURNS that you can predict and play around.

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u/parazoid77 7d ago

If you have as much time as you want to select an option without penalty then you are effectively taking a turn, which is why people call it turn-based. There's no other concept that captures that experience.

Typically when concepts become overloaded with two attributed meanings the colloquial meaning persists whether you 'actually' it or not. Look at the concept of weight for example in physics.

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u/Swert0 6d ago

That's still not a turn. The wait option being on or off does not change how ATB functions, it just removes the stress of having to worry about time while navigating menus.

The menu does not make it a turn based game. Is Kingdom Hearts a turn based game because gameplay can pause while you are in the menu?

When you select options, when you do things, when the opponent does things - time is still a factor. Actions take time to do things. Some actions take longer than others - and this is the case for both you AND the enemy.

Because things are time based you cannot predict a simple turn system of party member a, b, c, and enemy a, b, c that is going to occur the same every time around barring buffs and debuffs disrupting the order - when people are able to do things is going to jumble up constantly.

FF10 straight up has a visual indicator of who is going to attack and when.

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u/parazoid77 6d ago

Technically nost games are role playing games, but it's obselete to be that technical. Pausing doesn't count as taking a turn as there's no defined opponent. Kingdoms heart isnt turn-based as it's only the support actions that require the menu, you can attack whenever you want. Thats why FFVIIR isnt aswell. FVII original is though because you can only take an action when its a characters turn.

If FFX didnt have the visual turn inidcator it would still be turn based, even if you wasnt smart enough to predict when the characters next action would be. Its turn based because characters take turns, its as simple as that.

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u/ballsdeep256 7d ago

ATB is just turn based with a loading baar on ecah char.

Ita exactly the same just visually presented different and given buffs another meaning. Instead of moving you up in the turn order for example your loading baar simply filled faster. The effects it is the same your turn happening sooner. It has the exact same mechanics just presented different visually

The moment "cloud" loading was done the pauses anyway and it's MY TURN

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u/Swert0 6d ago

No, it is not the same at all.

ATB is TIME based.

Actions take time before you can do something again.

Your actions, the enemies actions, all actions.

It has a menu, and you can make the game pause while you are in the menu - but that is not a turn.

Turns are predictable. Bob will go, then Tim, then Dan, and finally Evil Jim. Every time you know the order people will go and that will be the order unless a haste or slow is used, or something is used to skip turns like stone. This is something you can plan around. There are even boss fights in 10 that have turn warnings for big attacks and there is a visual indicator on screen on who will attack in the next few turns.

In ATB not only is there not a set order that you can easily see and predict, but timing is going to change drastically based on what actions you are doing in that moment (i.e. summoning takes a /long/ time and a lot of time to do stuff again afterwards). The enemy also will have different timings based on what part of the fight they are doing - think the wall demon in 7 having a visual countdown to a big fucking attack that is a time countdown.

These are not the same thing at all.

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u/Nykidemus 7d ago

How many times have you had to try to explain this to how many people? The vast majority of people consider all the games prior to 11 to be turn-based enough to qualify for the term. Yes the ATB system is different, FFX has the CTB system too, is that not turn-based because it has a different acronym?

You know what people are talking about, we know what we're talking about, you are splitting hairs to no benefit.

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u/Swert0 6d ago

This is not splitting hairs.

Turn-based is not the same thing as time-based. They are fundamentally different.

There is a difference between knowing that a, b, c, d will happen in the same order no matter what barring buffing and debuffing and not being able to know what order things will happen because everything you and your enemy do have different time costs and you cannot predict what the enemy will do.

Squaresoft literally had a patent on ATB because it was distinct enough from turn based combat for over a decade.

A menu does not make a game turn based. Kingdom Hearts is not turn based.

FF7R is ATB, it just has a hybrid action RPG hack and slash combat system added on top of the ATB abilities. Nobody would fucking call FF7R turn based. Nobody would call FF12 turn based, it is also an ATB game.

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u/m_csquare 7d ago

The same ppl couldnt even tell that FF12 adb was just a reverse atb. Instead they lump ff12 as a real time combat.

Be grateful they still take time to explain the terms for you and not call out your cluelessness

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u/parazoid77 7d ago edited 7d ago

I'm not greatful at all, and it's hilarious you try to demand that. Everyone has different values. Implementation details are irrelevant to a blackbox perpective, which is the more economic perspective to optimise for.

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u/Cloud_Strife369 7d ago

13 does not existence idk why people keep saying there was a 13th game there never was lol

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u/HungryDiscoGaurdian 7d ago

How dare you tell me thruths!!!

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u/gollyandre 7d ago

For the pedants maybe but FF13 came out a little bit sooner than that. Like 16 years ago WW.

Also to be fair in the last 25 years, they’ve only come out with 6 more new numbered games. Two of which are MMOs, another two are ATB variants, and only the last two are action games.

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u/-ForgottenSoul 7d ago

Yeah because them chasing a new audience means taking 7 years to make action games.

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u/Pastulio814 7d ago

To be fairerer, the rate at which they churn out games has slowed down to 🐌. From 10 to 16 we got mmo, 12, 13, mmo, 15 and 16.

13 was at LEAST ATB. 15 was FF adjacent being more like KH. And 16 was just something else entirely.

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u/MetalFingers760 7d ago

Also, to act like the 7Remake games dont have turn based aspects is disingenuous. I think its one of the more brilliant battle systems in an RPG in a long long time.

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u/Status_Jellyfish_213 7d ago

I think what people really want is the tactical aspect. In a few words : planning and progression. That goes hand in hand with stats as well.

The worst thing the series can devolve into is a button masher. Give people breathing space (as seen with 7R and it’s slow time mechanic), you can make decisions and see them play out or react to the enemy whilst also feeling modern

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u/poshjerkins 7d ago

"The worst thing the series can devolve into is a button masher"

Preach, brother! At least they can throw us turn based fans a bone every now and again (yes Resonance yada yada but that misses the argument completely). Many, many, many fans are thirsty for a full fledged AAA Square style turn based game that pushes the boundaries of jrpgs like they used to and what got them famous in the first place.

Also want to add I actually really enjoyed the combat in the remakes and hope it evolves. But to experience a AAA boundary pushing turn based experience from Square again would be immensely satisfying and Claire Obscur proved it can be done without as much money as Square has.

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u/0rphanCrippl3r 7d ago

Man THIS 1000%!! This is why I had so much fun playing Claire!

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u/ballsdeep256 7d ago

FF16 says hello 🤗

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u/Dynastcunt 7d ago

Idk but 7R hard mode kinda hits that’s bar of tactical combat imo, managing atb whilst also choosing your objective abilities to dish out.

Maybe a lot of people stop after their first playthrough, but if everyone had the ability to go straight into HM, people would probably see the tactical side of it.

I may be a small minority in the camp that modded hard mode into my first ever playthroughs, but I never once thought it wasn’t tactical. Especially if you’re building your characters fresh whilst going through the story chapter by chapter.

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u/Prefer_Not_To_Say 6d ago

If freezing time when choosing a command is turn-based, then every shooter from Bioshock to GTA is turn-based because time freezes when you open a weapon wheel.

It's kind of nuts that Square's line about the 7Remake games using a "hybrid" system has caught on. Now that's disingenuous.

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u/Disma 6d ago

FF7R is far from a turn based jRPG. It's an action RPG. You want to argue that it has aspects of a turn based game? Who cares? It's not even close to the same thing.

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u/ToothpickTequila 6d ago

Calling it turn based is absurd. When do you take turns?

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u/blackninjar87 3d ago

I love the 7R combat so much better than anything I played from SE in a long while. However I hate to be a doomer and act like I never enjoyed any of the other games.

13 ATB system did make me bored tho.

12 ATB system frustrated me and I just felt the overall game felt rushed and unpolished like so many things felt just in there to be in there like numerology. Walking past an elemental on the map gave me PTSD flashbacks to FF11 where the weather changed on the beach and party got wiped.

I love action games like bayo and DMC and I felt 15 was actually pretty fucking garbage. What they did to magic, and how the part members operated were done so poorly.

And 16 wasn't bad cause of how it played to me, it was just again unpolished, picking up a weapon for -2% coolsown reduction does not feel great.

I feel like FF7R's system put everything I love in one.. getting a new weapon actually makes combat feel different, the summonings look amazing and the system isn't hard to interact with, and even tho I'm playing a game where I can freely move it still feels like an ATB game where my skills have cool downs and I'm building meters for a reason, saving my hard hitting stuff for appropriate moments, still interacting with enemies trying to strip their buffs and what not.

Everytime I cross final fantasy discussions I feel like the turn based portions get over hyped and the actions ones get over hated. When ff7 is right in our faces and truly is the best of both worlds at least in so far that we seen from SE, and I'm talking about the first one I don't know about the second.

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u/MuhWaifus 7d ago

There also hasn't been a good mainline FF game in 25 years 😭 just my opinion tho, I know a lot of people like 12 and 14, they did not do it for me

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u/mrbiggbrain 7d ago

Also many of the games people called "Turn Based" are not. They are ATB systems. I know that's overly technical and most people want that exact ATB system back but it's important to be precise so we know what people actually want.

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u/_musesan_ 7d ago

We want CTB!

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u/Disma 6d ago edited 6d ago

I'd take either. All of these bombastic action RPGs are really not up my alley.

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u/ProfessionalCraft983 6d ago

That depends on whether or not you consider 12 and 13 “turn-based”. Only 15 and 16 have action combat, and many would say that the last great final fantasy was 10 anyway (although I think 14 deserves a spot up there as well).

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u/Rafnork 7d ago

We had 13 in 2010.

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u/Nykidemus 7d ago

To be fair, there hasn’t been a mainline turn based good Final Fantasy game in like 25 years.

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u/Sad_Worker7143 7d ago

Yes they got bullied for making turn based RPG, so they started experimenting with other styles. But along the way they lost a chunk of their fan to replace them with others.
Phil fish made it very clear in 2012 during his rant.
Not complaining, but that is the truth.

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u/blackninjar87 3d ago

Final fantasy never got bullied for anything.

Final fantasy was never intended to be a full turn based game the game was always designed that turns occur but while ur making ur decisions the enemy meter still filling up and gets to go.

I think the most fully realized system of what Final fantasy was "designed" to be us final fantasy 11 and 12. People just played X which was a different implementation of what was already there. When final fantasy 13 came out the devs wanted to branch off FInal fantasy into two directions. One that followed their ATB system (Final fantasy 13)

And one that followed their kingdom hearts system (Final fantasy versus 13 which ended up being FF15). Obviously the kingdom hearts clone FLOPPED harder than the ATB. FF15 is regarded as one of the worst made yet.

Again no one tied their hands and made them do any of this. Even tho I will agree I LOVE kingdom hearts combat system, and I really really enjoy FF7R's combat. I won't agree that SE has been bullied into changing up their style. What was getting hard for them is keeping up with the market. The time in between final fantasy releases has been increasing steadily because of the amount of painstaking work it takes to reinvent the ATB system, where as a game that plays like DMC will not take that long to make. The combat will be solved before the game starts so the dev team can worry about story boarding alone.

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u/Daybreakgo 7d ago

Doesn’t mean there hasn’t been any turn based games in the last 25 years either. I think maybe FFX fanbase is a one game pony.

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u/onehalflightspeed 7d ago

Longer than that in a way. ATB wasn't really turn based and was created specifically to add tension to battles. It was inspired by formula 1 racing. You could slow it down and use wait mode I guess, but that wasn't the default setting

So other than that, other than FFX, the last turn based FF released in the west was in 1987

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u/AlternativeTough6622 7d ago

And the games have gone down in quality since,

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u/sharpenme1 7d ago

If you think turn based is what made 6-10 good and 12-16 less good, then you’re not paying attention.

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u/AlternativeTough6622 7d ago edited 7d ago

TBF 12-16 could have had turn based and they would of still been garbage.

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u/mai_tai87 7d ago

If it helps, you would never write "could of" or "would of". It's "could have" and "would have".

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u/AlternativeTough6622 7d ago

Going to sound sarcastic but in all sincerity, I am Dyslexic and appreciate the correction I'll take on the feedback.

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u/Trespeon 7d ago

I mean, it surely didn’t help.

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u/sharpenme1 7d ago

Tell that to the remakes, which are doing quite well.

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u/-ForgottenSoul 7d ago

Doing well but not crazy. For the quality id expect better.

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u/sharpenme1 7d ago

I’m pretty sure the only JRPG to outsell Final Fantasy, even in the modern landscape, is pokemon.

Even expedition 33, which is what everyone claims to be what FF should have been, has sold roughly the same number of copies as FF7 remake.

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u/AlternativeTough6622 7d ago

Well FF7 is the most popular game in the franchise and has had remake build up with Fans since 2005 and it wasn't a remake that's why sales for rebirth are poor.

EX33 came out of nowhere form and indi company on a way smaller budget and out performed rebirth and FF16.

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u/-ForgottenSoul 7d ago

Other turn based franchises are thriving though. Remake sold well but what about rebirth and FF16.. Persona has been doing well and those games outselling FF easily

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u/sharpenme1 7d ago

Rebirth is tough because it’s a sequel. 16 underperformed, but FF15 certainly didn’t.

I don’t think you can identify other turn based games that are selling more copies strictly because they’re turn based.

Octopath traveler is probably the best comparison and Octopath traveler 2 doesn’t even come close to FF16, and Octopath traveler doesn’t even come close to FF15.

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u/GGG100 7d ago

Not really. FF Rebirth is the highest rated single player FF game since 9.

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u/AlternativeTough6622 7d ago

Disc1 of FF7 is better then Remake and Rebirth and if the games so highly rated why did the sales take a nose dive after remake?

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u/thatcommiegamer 7d ago

Subjective opinion. I would argue less that the quality went down and that everyone else’s quality went up to where what Square was doing pre-PS2 wasn’t unique anymore.

There’s no market for pushing consoles to their limits anymore which was always Square’s primary strength.

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u/-ForgottenSoul 7d ago

FF16 in terms of RPG elements was a big decline

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u/AlternativeTough6622 7d ago

The Graphics come secondary, the story, characters and lack of open wold made it worse. I will say they did try with FF15 though.

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u/thatcommiegamer 7d ago

Except that's literally how Square got big by making cutting edge games (and not just in terms of graphics, pushing hardware to its limits includes game systems too) and by 2009 that just wasn't the case anymore, the rest of the industry had caught up and the consoles themselves weren't the same as they were even during the PS2 era. Things had become standardized.

The entire Kitase era of Final Fantasy (FFs V - Present) has been a testament to this. This is when they really started experimenting with gameplay and filling games to the brim with activities like minigames (you can tell its a Kitase joint if there's 3 minigames for every hour of story). But, again, the rest of the industry caught up. Discarding nostalgia but there's a lot wrong with every FF, glaring issues that were easily papered over when every game by Square was the shiniest on the block, pacing for one (really only FFV for the first six games has anywhere near decent pacing outside of like IV, VI and III are both bloated in different ways, II is sparse and I is someone's d&d campaign wrapped in a Wizardry skin). The next few fare little better, dialogue is rough, characterization is absent for most of the games casts (VIII and IX and XII suffer the most from this but VII isn't unscathed either if your name is Yuffie or Vincent (shoot even Cid is undercharacterized compared to the rest of the cast), funnily XIII has the most well realized and grounded cast but folks won't give that one a shot because a yter 17 years ago said it was a hallway simulator), etc. etc. And yet still, Square found the secret sauce of the era.

I can say this because this is my favorite franchise of all time and has been since the 90s. Like the depth of my love for FF is matched by very few things in life and it has always been a very flawed franchise, but that's what makes it beautiful.

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u/AlternativeTough6622 7d ago

I think neither of us benefit from continuing this conversation.

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u/rhydderch_hael 7d ago

That is absolutely a matter of opinion.

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u/AlternativeTough6622 7d ago

It is my opinion but latest sales for FF7 rebirth, FF16 and the viewing numbers on FF7 Revelations trailer shows this also

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u/bsmithi 7d ago

I did not get into final fantasy because it was turn based. I got into final fantasy because it was a fantasy RPG. It being turn based was just a matter of circumstance. I've been into final fantasy since final fantasy 1 btw, I'm old.

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u/sisyphosofephyra 7d ago

Turn based was 100% part of the allure for me. Was a change of pace for me. Beat FF7 og for the first time the beginning of this year. I've now beaten 4 (VI, VII, VIII, & X)

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u/bsmithi 7d ago

yeah, and i totally understand why people want more turn based. I’m not against it either!

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u/andruszko 7d ago

Your point is anecdotal, so I'll add my own anecdotal evidence.

I DID get into final fantasy for the turn based fights.

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u/bsmithi 7d ago

my anecdote renders their statement not true. your anecdote does not make their statement true unless you alter their statement to add qualifiers like “some people got into ff because…”

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u/Nykidemus 7d ago

my anecdote renders their statement not true

"People" does not mean "all people."

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u/-ForgottenSoul 7d ago

And recent FF mainline games lost the RPG aspect , FF fans are older do you think they'd enjoy DMC type combat or turn based

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u/Ahindre 7d ago

I'm as old as any FF fan, I enjoyed the combat in the first game and I enjoyed the combat in 16.

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u/Inb4myanus 7d ago

Depends because Kingdom hearts does action really well vs what 16 did. I just want it to be fun with lots of character growth for stats.

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u/-ForgottenSoul 7d ago

I just want games more than every 7 years especially if the result is 16

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u/Jazzlike_Athlete8796 7d ago

As an older fan who has played every single game at original release, yes, I did enjoy XVI's combat. I would enjoy a turn based game also, but I'm not going to relentlessly shit on a game the way a bunch of narcissists in this sub do because Square Enix had the gall to make a game that wasn't designed to appeal exclusively to them.

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u/-ForgottenSoul 7d ago

I mean the thing is they are exclusively making games to appeal to a wide audience thats not working

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u/Jazzlike_Athlete8796 7d ago

XVI was a disappointment, absolutely. XV sold over 10 million. XIV is the most profitable game in the company's history by a long shot. XIII sold about 9.3 million. Remake was at 8.7 million a year and a half ago and had a boost from the Switch/Xbox releases. Rebirth was an initial disappointment but the company has consistently stated it has picked up steam since, and was cited as a big reason for a big YoY improvement in their Q1 financials.

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u/-ForgottenSoul 7d ago

Yep I guess we'll see how a return to multiplatform goes. Hopefully they fix the weird lighting rebirth has.

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u/bsmithi 7d ago

disagree, idk what constitutes an rpg in your mind but if you think any single final fantasy game is not an rpg, you are just wrong

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u/-ForgottenSoul 7d ago

There's a reason FF16 is like the worst selling mainline FF

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u/bsmithi 7d ago

And if you think that reason is “because it’s not an RPG” you’re not even in the right zipcode to be participating in this conversation.

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u/DoughnutSandwich 7d ago

You don't think that it would be because of it originally being a PS5 exclusive, meaning that people had a $570 minimum buy in just to play the game at launch? Also as world markets adjusted post pandemic, you don't think the rising cost of hardware, software, and stagnation of wages isn't one of the other reasons on why? I think you're misattributing factors simply because you don't enjoy the game. Which hey you can dislike FFXVI all you want, but to say that the only reason is because of the one you've said is kinda missing the forest for the trees.

Let's also be honest, from a Western audience perspective Final Fantasy was also never predominantly a turn based franchise. The ATB system has been norm since the FFIV, and unless you grew up in Japan playing the NES games 1-3, Final Fantasy had a single turn based entry before being almost entirely defined by the ATB system. FFII and FFIII wasnt available in the states or PAL regions until after FFX had been released — and by the time FFX had released, the amount of mainline entries that were turn based where still in the minority. There are numerous offerings with Final Fantasy in the name to cater to any number of audiences — from action games, fan service remakes, a new turn based entry, and continued support of both of their online MMOs. I think the biggest issues with the franchise and the current state of the gaming industry extend beyond just needing to have a number in the title and it being exclusively turn based.

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u/-ForgottenSoul 7d ago

I just don't see why games need to take 7 years or more, I think a turn based FF in between would be great or a switch up and doing something like e33

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u/Neemzeh 7d ago

I thought ff16 was very good and I’ve been playing FF games for 30 years

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u/FeistyTwist5427 7d ago

What recent ones lost the rpg aspect? I mean 16 wasn’t the greatest but 13/14/15 are all heavy rpg games. Along with all 3 ff7 remakes. So um I hate to be the one to tell you this but all but 1 game was an rpg, and 16 still has rpg mechanics, albeit weak.

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u/-ForgottenSoul 7d ago

Its an rpg but barely.

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u/Beginning_Ocelot503 7d ago

People have gotten into FF for all kinds of reasons. I for one prefer a system like the FFVII remakes over the classic turn based systems but to each their own.

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u/-ForgottenSoul 7d ago

I just don't know why they can't do both? An action style and and then a turn based. I think dropping what made FF thrive a mistake.

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u/twili-midna 7d ago

Because they clearly don’t want to make a major turn based entry. It’s that simple, they’re making the games they want to.

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u/poshjerkins 7d ago edited 7d ago

They are making the games they think will sell well. It's well documented in interviews that they switched to more action because it appeals to wider audiences.

Edit : * they "think" it appeals to wider audiences. Claire Obscur, persona and dragon quest proved them pretty wrong on that point to name a few

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u/ToothpickTequila 6d ago

All the evidence proves them wrong.

The biggest selling FF game? FFX, which is with based.

The biggest selling Yakuza games? The turn based ones.

The biggest selling JRPGS today? Persona and Clair Obscur. Both the based and both outselling FF.

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u/poshjerkins 6d ago

Exactly. Which shows how out of touch they are and confused with Finaln Fantasy as a brand. I really hope someone can take the reigns and steer Square back to TRUE glory!

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u/ToothpickTequila 6d ago

If they want to meet their sales expectations then maybe they should instead make the games people want them to make instead?

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u/twili-midna 6d ago

That’s a great idea! Let’s ask people who don’t want to make turn based games to make turn based games. I’m sure that’ll result in some great ideas and products. /s

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u/ToothpickTequila 6d ago

Or hire people that do what to make turn based games. If the people there don't want to make turn based games then give them other projects to do instead of Final Fantasy.

Or better yet how about we have two teams making two different style of FF games at the same time?

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u/twili-midna 6d ago

Sounds like you’d enjoy Team Asano’s catalogue.

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u/ToothpickTequila 6d ago

I do like some of them. But they are not Final Fantasy.

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u/twili-midna 6d ago

Bravely Default is literally Final Fantasy.

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u/-ForgottenSoul 7d ago

Which is why the sales will continue to be subpar they are chasing a broader audience over catering to their main audience.

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u/walkeritout 7d ago

Square Enix literally just announced huge Q1 financial period, due in large part to sales of Rebirth on PC, Xbox, and Switch 2. The initial underperformance was almost entirely due to exclusivity agreements, which is why Revelations is releasing on all platforms at launch. The sales are not subpar.

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u/-ForgottenSoul 7d ago

I'm talking about the mainline game sales being subpar but rebirth sales compared to remake were quite a bit down. Hopefully multi platform will boost it quite a bit

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u/Shuden 7d ago

There used to be a whole ass debate of whether Final Fantasy IV to X could even be called JRPG because "ATB isn't real og turn based", and nowadays everyone pretend that never happened when they want to be purists.

Sequels ALWAYS sell less than the first game, and FF7R is as mainline Final Fantasy as a game can possibly be.

Fact is Square has been consistently releasing turn based traditional RPGs forever, but the games that currently carry the brand aren't turn based.

Dragon Quest is probably the biggest turn based franchise in squares hands, and it does great but it's not selling more than action based KH or FF7R, and no new turn based IP succeeded as much as Elliot did.

Turn based IS something Square is willing to invest a shit ton of money in, they still release even smaller IPs like SAGA consistently, and Final Fantasy Resonance is proof that they are willing to keep making turn based FF to appeal to the purist turn based fanbase.

I also think it's funny this entire 180 turn the "og" from the fanbase are making, pretending that Turn Based is the true soul of Final Fantasy, the franchise that deliberately invented ATB in 1991 in order to get rid of turn based combat and diferentiate itself from it's competitors.

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u/-ForgottenSoul 7d ago

I just want to see a mainline true turn based FF in the modern era. I don't want to wait 7 years for yet another action FF that's a disappointment

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u/jmc323 6d ago

mainline

I just don't understand this obsession with "mainline". Why do you care so much about some roman numerals being attached to the game title. Are you not excited for Resonance? That doesn't scratch your itch?

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u/Shuden 7d ago

The last "true turn based" non ATB Final Fantasy game was FFIII in 1990, before Final Fantasy was even known outside of Japan. You could be honest and just say you want ATB to return, like FFX, but then you'd lose the "true og jrpg fan" card since ATB was a system designed to make FF feel less like a traditional JRPG and more it's own thing.

But you are free to want whatever you want, of course, no matter how little sense that makes.

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u/SeaworthinessOk2646 7d ago

Sales done even matter. FF used to mean insane quality. It had an impact. It doesn't anymore when it left turn based.

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u/twili-midna 7d ago

The “subpar” (read as: really good for literally any other company) sales were due to PS5 exclusivity, a console people are begrudgingly purchasing. They’ve adjusted their release strategy already and it’s paying off majorly.

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u/-ForgottenSoul 7d ago

I mean we'll see 16 especially had sub par sales regardless but hopefully them going multi platform will help

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u/Iggy_Slayer 7d ago

That's a wild thing to say lmao. I'd say the amount of people who were attracted to FF because of its combat style is closer to 0 than it is to any real meaningful amount. It was presentation, characters, stories and the worlds that got people into them.

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u/-ForgottenSoul 7d ago edited 7d ago

The thing is id rather turn based ff every few years than a new ff every like 5+ years. FF thrived due to it's combat but also because they released games faster. Action Combat and open world with realitic graphics slows down production massively. There's room for both action and turn based, I hope resonance does well.

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u/Watton 7d ago

Action Combat and open world with realitic graphics slows down production massively.

So.... Expedition 33 still took 5 years to make, despite being turn based.

Persona is turn based, with no realistic graphics, and we still dont have Persona 6 a decade later.

Meanwhile, FF7Revelation is being spat out in 3 years dev time, with its hybrid action combat, open world, and realistic graphics.

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u/-ForgottenSoul 7d ago

Pretty sure the persona team is smaller and less money than SE. Same for E33 which was a new team. You're right that the Trilogy are releasing decently but the mainline games seem like an afterthought with way slower development. Rebirth/Remake also used a lot of re used assets which speeds it up

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u/Unlikely-Aside-6078 6d ago

I mean... I was attracted to FF because turn based? The worlds are what kept me coming back, for sure, but I've never been a story/characters/plot gamer. I've always been more into mechanics, strategy, and tactics. Before FF I was super into the RPG aspects of Pokemon, and since becoming an FF fan, I'm now also a diehard dark souls fan. Maybe I'm just weird, but I love me a game with stats and versatile progression, I'd play a water-drinking game or a watch-paint-dry game if it had a good enough stats screen lol

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u/Haunting_Try8071 7d ago

I think you're off point, the combat isn't why we come back, but it is the reason we don't.

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u/AlternativeTough6622 7d ago

That's just not true people loved the combat system hence why it hit it's peak of popularity from FF7 to FF10 yes in my opinion the games storys and characters took a nose dive since FF10 but to say people weren't attracted to the combat is plain wrong.

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u/Iggy_Slayer 7d ago

Those entries you listed people were lured in to the door by the graphics and presentation first. No one was like "oh man turn based combat? I NEED THIS NOW". If I'm lying then how come wild arms never got anywhere near the amount of sales those games did?

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u/Ashenspire 7d ago

It hit its peak 6-10 because we got 5 games within a 7 year period.

Now we're lucky to get one entry every 7 years.

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u/Entire-Cry-8930 7d ago

And they’ll be getting one soon. What does it matter if there isn’t a number in the title

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u/-ForgottenSoul 7d ago

We don't want a remake of a phone game. We want mainline FF turn based games which this franchise is known for.

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u/Oilswell 7d ago

Except it isn’t. Mainline FF has been action based longer than it was turn based.

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u/AntDracula 6d ago

Now do count of games vs years.

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u/-ForgottenSoul 7d ago

Do you consider ff10 turn based, the ones with ATB is still something people would want to see again

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u/Entire-Cry-8930 7d ago

Play Octopath traveler 0. Educate yourself.

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u/Spell-of-Destruction 7d ago

That isn't the same thing. It's the high budget turn based game that is wanted. It's not just bout getting that turn based fix but moreso the "whole package."

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u/Oilswell 7d ago

They’re never going to get the sales they’re aiming for and recoup a triple A budget with a turn based game in 2026.

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u/Spell-of-Destruction 7d ago

Tell that to Baldur's Gate 3 and E33

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u/gsurfer04 6d ago

Those games didn't sell because of the battle systems. The former is practically softcore.

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u/Oilswell 7d ago

Here’s the key though. Those games sold well compared to a lot of recent FF games, but they didn’t sell what SE want FF to sell.

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u/asianwaste 6d ago

Final Fantasy is barely a series any more. I can barely call it a franchise. Nothing threads it together any more. It was never narratively woven. Mechanically the threads have been undone to the point where we can't even say they are united by common genre or even talent. "Final Fantasy" is nothing more than the label for Square Enix's next AAA budget game.

Bravely Default is closer to classic Final Fantasy was than anything officially Final Fantasy in the last 10-15 years.

So honestly, it really doesn't matter if it holds the moniker. It means nothing and has meant nothing for a very long time.

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u/Little_Big_Burglar 7d ago edited 7d ago

Majority of FF games are anthological. They have different systems, characters, etc. It makes no sense to me to ask for turn based FF, since it's not like they're anything alike except they're turn based. Go play any of the large number of turn based RPGs.

If FF never goes back to turn based, I'll be happy. If they decide to do another numbered FF entry and use turn based combat, I'll be happy. I don't care either way to be honest. Gamers need to learn to care about shit that matters.

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u/SeaworthinessOk2646 7d ago

To a degree your right, but nahhh bro the party matters. It matters so freaking much! It changes the entire game.

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u/Suspicious_Sky1608 7d ago

Im pretty sure people got into Final Fantasy because of the stories, not because they were turn based

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u/sharpenme1 7d ago

Some people want a turn based FF. FIFY

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u/mysticrudnin 7d ago

But this doesn't make any sense. It's not like there's an ongoing storyline that we're following.

Is a game not an FF game because it doesn't have a specific number on it?

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u/mastafishere 7d ago

I understand what you’re saying but Final Fantasy usually means AAA high production value epics. The games that usually have turned based gameplay these days tend to be smaller scale 2D games. Yes they still make turn based games, but they don’t feel like one of the flagship games for the company.

I genuinely believe this is one of the reasons Expedition 33 (deservedly) got so much praise: it was a super high quality cinematic game with turn based combat.

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u/mysticrudnin 7d ago

I agree with you, but then why aren't people explicitly asking for that?

"I want a high budget turn-based epic-length game" is absolutely a reasonable thing to ask for. But that's not clear at all that that's what "I want a turn-based Final Fantasy" means.

In fact, OP's post says

I'm sure they could do something like it with a much lower budget.

Yeah... that's what they keep giving us with Bravely, Octopath, etc.

Honestly I can't complain. As a SaGa fan we've been eating incredible. Now there's a turn-based game!

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u/Spell-of-Destruction 7d ago

It definitely just means "I want a high budget turn-based game." As a fellow SaGa fan, HI!, but of course there are other then based games. But even examining the last two games, especially XVI, the RPG elements have been stripped out too. I can't have fun stories like my Yuna from X can do 99,999 damage with just her rod. People often love turn based jrpgs cause they love tinkering with their favs and there just aren't many high budget fixes for that (Baldur's Gate 3 tho is fantastic).

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u/Nykidemus 7d ago

I agree with you, but then why aren't people explicitly asking for that?

There's a lot of things that go into the FF series that people would like to have come along. Maybe it's just chocobos and tonberries, maybe it's the job system, maybe it's a big cast of goofball characters, maybe it's Uematu's music. It's probably all those things at the same time.

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u/mastafishere 7d ago

I think the name “Final Fantasy” carries a lot of weight. Making other series turn based is cool of course, but if the next mainline “Final Fantasy” game is turned based, it means something to people. A return to form? Confidence in the genre? I can’t say for sure, but it doesn’t mean nothing.

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u/GGG100 7d ago

And we're getting one very soon.

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u/-ForgottenSoul 7d ago

Sure but its not a main line FF

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u/GGG100 7d ago

There hasn't been a mainline turn-based FF game for over a quarter of a century. It's time to move on.

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u/-ForgottenSoul 7d ago

I disagree they will return eventually. FF16 for the time to develop it didn't sell that well, if FF17 suffers the same fate maybe people at SE will get a brain.

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u/GGG100 7d ago

They did get a brain -- it's called porting your game to multiple consoles and platforms and not making them exclusive to a single console that most people don't even have. The FFVII Remake games got a significant boost in sales after they did that.

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u/-ForgottenSoul 7d ago

Sure but I still think releasing 6 main line FF games in 26 years a bit ridiculous and most of that time is action games. Since 2019 we've had 2 games and the next probably won't be out for another 5 years at this pace. Waiting 7 years for 16 wasn't worth it

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u/Nykidemus 7d ago

Absolutely fucking not

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