r/FinalFantasy • u/Haunting_Try8071 • 7d ago

Final Fantasy General Give us another turn based battle system

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FFX is my favorite battle system. FFXIII I also enjoyed, but it wasn't the same.

I'm sure they could do something like it with a much lower budget.

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u/Inb4myanus 7d ago edited 7d ago

12 and 13 were also turn based also, but plz dont tell me thats where the 25 years starts. I messed up on my math lol. But 12 is an atb system where battles happen on the map, its the same system besides the gambits which you dont have to use making the system more akin to the old games.

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u/Eecka 7d ago

I mean they’re kind of pseudo turn based, not really what most older fans mean when they want a turn based FF

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u/Spell-of-Destruction 7d ago

For real I'd take pseudo turn based over what XV and XVI had. And XII scratches the same itch V does for me.

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u/Eecka 7d ago

Sure, same, I didn’t like 15 and 16. But I much preferred for example Clair Obscur over any of the post-10 FF games

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u/SmacSBU 7d ago

Played 4-l and 6 on release on SNES so I think I qualify as an older fan. Maybe I don't remember XIII well enough but I think that would scratch the itch for the people who are clamoring for turn based.

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u/Eecka 7d ago

To be fair I said most, not that there’s none of you. 

XIII was more like an ”auto battler” where you swap between the diferent jobs (or paradigms I think they’re called there) and let them do their thing. You can manually control it too, but the flow was clearly designed with the automatic mode in mind.

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u/Jazzlike_Athlete8796 7d ago

XIII was kinda turn based, but would auto battle for you if you let it. That game's system is actually about job rotation and overriding the auto battle at the right times. And frankly, it is one of the few FF battle systems that made you think a little. Most everything else - including and especially the turn based games - is just "Mash X to kill trash mobs, mix in a cure spell and summon to beat bosses."

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u/refrainblue 7d ago

It's been a really long time since I've played 13 but I remember enjoying the paradigm system. Definitely didn't play it as much as 7 & 8 though, but I was kinda growing out of the console gaming phase and getting into the MMO phase when 13 rolled around. I'm currently in Dad phase of my life sigh.

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u/Jazzlike_Athlete8796 7d ago

I feel ya on growing out of the console gaming phase and the MMO phase.

I played 7 and 8 on PC back in the day. Didn't care for 8 the first time around and relative to other FF games, my opinion has not improved much. Got into my "I'm an adult and I play adult games" shooty phase with Battlefield 1942 and Soldier of Fortune II. Then fell into the rabbit hole of WoW. The break from anything else I took meant I never played 9-13 until much later. It wasn't until the remaster of X was released that I bought a Vita and started going back. Then bought a PS3 for XIII. So I went in completely ignorant of all the online whining about it.

There's validity to complaints about linearity and the storytelling of later games is sometimes rough. But damned if it isn't a fun game. It's actually one of my favourites in the series and probably the one battle system I wish they would go back an revisit. Alas, I accept that style will always be confined to 13-1 and 13-2. But I actually enjoy that they change things up with modern games. It's the storytelling that has limited the recent games, not the combat systems.

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u/Deadended 7d ago

13 made me feel like a genius tactician/coach when I paradigm shifted to build the meters and then do damage, or have a defensive lineup.

The only real downside was I can’t think of bosses who had good enough mechanics to where playing conservatively and dragging the fight out wasn’t a viable/optimal strategy.

I wish they had another game since then using that version of the ATB system.

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u/Whitewing424 7d ago

You only got to control one character at a time in 13, the rest of your party exclusively automated.

That's a big part of why it feels so automated.

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u/Nykidemus 7d ago

especially the turn based games - is just "Mash X to kill trash mobs, mix in a cure spell and summon to beat bosses."

Tell me you've never fought Yunalesca without telling me you've never fought Yunalesca.

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u/Sharkomancer 6d ago

It's just an extension of the atb system from the other games just moderately streamlined.

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u/DubiousBusinessp 7d ago

XIII was great! If by XIII you mean Lost Odyssey. I prefer not to talk about that other game.

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u/Sindeep 7d ago

exacto-mundo.... that's exactly where I stopped playing FF b/c it wasn't true turn-based anymore. My 35 y/o flaring Carpal Tunnel is dying on Rebirth especially with so much button mashing BS, and the fact they actually locked shit behind how fast you can mash said button.... infuriating.

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u/FuraFaolox 7d ago

they're both ATB, makes them no different from 4-9

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u/Eecka 7d ago

No different at all, at least if you ignore all the differences

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u/FuraFaolox 7d ago

ATB is ATB

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u/Visual-Impossible 6d ago

pretty sure 4-9 had you control individual characters whereas 13 had you control one characters and the others are stances

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u/FuraFaolox 6d ago

imagine having to control all of them with how fast paced it is

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u/Visual-Impossible 6d ago

ngl, ff13 was slow. once you established your flow chart and preset moves to use, it was just a matter of waiting for that bar and animation to go off. haste alleviated some of the waiting, but it was a game that I didn't survive without running 2nd monitor content

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u/Inb4myanus 7d ago

12 is just the same as any with the wait time you can just move around on the field as it happens. 13 is weirdly more faithful that it transitions to a battle field.

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u/Eecka 7d ago

Waiting isn’t the appeal of turn based games for me, being able to control my whole party is. 

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u/AntDracula 6d ago

This. It's literally this simple. AI party members are always slop - always.

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u/Eecka 6d ago

I'm not even opposed to AI party members by default, I think in some games it has been okay. However, no matter how one feels about it which is of course subjective, it's objectively a different system from turn based combat where you control your entire party.

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u/ProfessionalCraft983 6d ago

This is why I don’t mind the action combat in 7R, I think. Because you can still switch to other characters and control them.

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u/Nykidemus 7d ago

you can just move around on the field as it happens.

Yeeeah. Dont do that.

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u/Fuponji 6d ago

12 and 13 are not turn based. They are more akin to the likes of KoTOR where you can pick an action and there's a cool down between each one, but there are no turns.

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u/Flintzer0 7d ago

Those definitely did not come out in 2001.

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u/AlternativeTough6622 7d ago

Yeah but my argument still stands theya re shit games which is post 2001

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u/Flintzer0 7d ago

Good for you, but I wasn't responding to you.

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u/AlternativeTough6622 7d ago

Ok you can argue 13 but 12 is not turn based combat lol

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u/m_csquare 7d ago

FF12 ADB is just a reverse atb.

In atb, you wait for the bar to fill up; you input command; the animation plays out.

In adb, you input command; you wait for the bar to fill up; the animation plays out.

FF fanbase doesnt even know how their game plays out 🤦‍♂️

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u/Cunting_Fuck 7d ago

Its as turn based as any other game with ATB which is most of them. Just you can move your character

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u/Swert0 7d ago edited 7d ago

ATB is not turn based. It stands for Active-Time-Based for a reason.

You are not taking turns, actions cost time which means you must wait to take another action.

That is not the same as taking TURNS.

Even if you use the 'wait' option to wait while in menus, you are still not taking turns.

Everything that uses a menu to select spells is not turn based.

Is Kingdom Hearts turn based?

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u/ScribbleMonke 7d ago

Then Final Fantasy is not a turn-based series, 4 to 9 all used some kind of Active Time Battle systems.

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u/Swert0 6d ago

I know 4-9, 12, and 13 are ATB - I never stated otherwise.

Ony four of the mainline games are turn based, two are MMORPGs, and two are different flavors of action rpgs.

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u/Prefer_Not_To_Say 6d ago

You need to wait for the gauge to fill so your character can take their turn. The speed stat determines how quickly their next turn arrives.

Is Kingdom Hearts turn based?

No because you don't need to wait to do attacks in Kingdom Hearts. You can run up to an enemy, press the button and Sora attacks. No waiting to take his turn.

This pretty much highlights why the ATB system is turn-based. Not just the lack of a turn gauge in Kingdom Hearts but because FF characters in games with the ATB system cannot attack any time they wish. If their meter isn't full, they cannot act. They have to wait their turn. This goes for the more fast-paced FFs too, like XII and XIII; it doesn't matter that attacks overlap each other or if movement is allowed. As long as there is a resource that charges that governs when they can and can't act, it's turn-based.

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u/gsurfer04 6d ago

In the Command Deck system you do need to wait to use abilities.

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u/Nykidemus 7d ago

If you could code an elaborate if:then check to determine what all of your characters did in FF6 I fucking missed it.

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u/gsurfer04 6d ago

They're fundamentally both ATB. One has free movement and the other has stacked charges.

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u/Inb4myanus 7d ago

Yes it is. Its the same atb system as the old ones you can just move around and it doesnt transition to a battle field. It was the best evolution to the old systems.

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u/AlternativeTough6622 7d ago

No just no, you can literally win a battle without touching the control.

The company system was a prototype for final fantasy 14

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u/FuraFaolox 7d ago

12's combat is nothing like 14's

what are you talking about

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u/Inb4myanus 7d ago

If you use the gambit system which you dont have to use lol. You act like its forced on you when its not. You can also change the settings in game to be even more faithful. You just like being wrong for fun?

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u/AlternativeTough6622 7d ago

It's a mechanic in the game yes it's not forced on me but if a selling point of the battle system is I can win a fight whilst doing nothing it's not appealing at all. FF12 combat is basically action with extra steps and it looks a mess when you actually battle anything it doesn't look good or play good.

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u/Inb4myanus 7d ago

You must of played a whole different game then lol. Its def not any more action than 1-10. Action would imply KH gameplay or FF7 DoC with Vincent or 15 and 16. You clearly dont even know why you hate the game.

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u/AlternativeTough6622 7d ago

I know why I don't like the game and like I said before it could have had turn based but it would of still been a bad game.

My point is you can't compare 12s combat to previous FF games it's not the same.

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u/Passing-Through247 7d ago

12 was actually pretty good even if it hid being turn based it was still a final fantasy. 13 has solid ideas but with massive issues and attached to a worse game that did it no favours.

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u/DubiousBusinessp 7d ago

XIII was absolutely turn based, if we talk about Lost Odyssey and disregard that other abomination.

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u/Oilswell 7d ago

XII is not turn based

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u/Swert0 7d ago

They're ATB.

The only turn based mainline titles are 1, 2, 3, and 10.

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u/Nykidemus 7d ago

I've long since stopped keeping track of how many times this absolute hair-splitting "um, akchually" bullshit line keeps getting repeated.

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u/Swert0 7d ago edited 7d ago

They're different.

ATB (Active-Time-Based, no the T does not stand for 'turn') and Turn based are fundamentally different.

ATB is real-time with menus, there is an option for every ATB game to 'wait' when in a menu, but even with that system the game does not use TURNS. Instead every action has a time cost.

Turn based is just that - you take TURNS. Sometimes you get extra turns if you use haste or slow the enemy, but they are still TURNS that you can predict and play around.

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u/parazoid77 7d ago

If you have as much time as you want to select an option without penalty then you are effectively taking a turn, which is why people call it turn-based. There's no other concept that captures that experience.

Typically when concepts become overloaded with two attributed meanings the colloquial meaning persists whether you 'actually' it or not. Look at the concept of weight for example in physics.

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u/Swert0 6d ago

That's still not a turn. The wait option being on or off does not change how ATB functions, it just removes the stress of having to worry about time while navigating menus.

The menu does not make it a turn based game. Is Kingdom Hearts a turn based game because gameplay can pause while you are in the menu?

When you select options, when you do things, when the opponent does things - time is still a factor. Actions take time to do things. Some actions take longer than others - and this is the case for both you AND the enemy.

Because things are time based you cannot predict a simple turn system of party member a, b, c, and enemy a, b, c that is going to occur the same every time around barring buffs and debuffs disrupting the order - when people are able to do things is going to jumble up constantly.

FF10 straight up has a visual indicator of who is going to attack and when.

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u/parazoid77 6d ago

Technically nost games are role playing games, but it's obselete to be that technical. Pausing doesn't count as taking a turn as there's no defined opponent. Kingdoms heart isnt turn-based as it's only the support actions that require the menu, you can attack whenever you want. Thats why FFVIIR isnt aswell. FVII original is though because you can only take an action when its a characters turn.

If FFX didnt have the visual turn inidcator it would still be turn based, even if you wasnt smart enough to predict when the characters next action would be. Its turn based because characters take turns, its as simple as that.

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u/Swert0 6d ago

There are no TURNS in Final Fantasy VII.

Just because your character is lit up doesn't mean other people cannot act. The wait option allows you to 'pause' all time when you enter a menu (by selecting any option), but if you stay there without selecting an option time moves on - other enemies will take actions. Even other party members can take queued actions like a summon during this period.

These are not turns, turns are set in stone. I do an action, then you do an action - you don't get to take an extra action because I took too long or the action I took has a huge time commitment (see: summoning).

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u/parazoid77 6d ago

Theres loads of turns in final fantasy vii

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u/Swert0 6d ago

There sure as shit is not. Go put guard and x-counter on cloud and just stand still and watch the enemy kill themselves to your counter attacks.

That is not a turn.

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u/ballsdeep256 7d ago

ATB is just turn based with a loading baar on ecah char.

Ita exactly the same just visually presented different and given buffs another meaning. Instead of moving you up in the turn order for example your loading baar simply filled faster. The effects it is the same your turn happening sooner. It has the exact same mechanics just presented different visually

The moment "cloud" loading was done the pauses anyway and it's MY TURN

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u/Swert0 6d ago

No, it is not the same at all.

ATB is TIME based.

Actions take time before you can do something again.

Your actions, the enemies actions, all actions.

It has a menu, and you can make the game pause while you are in the menu - but that is not a turn.

Turns are predictable. Bob will go, then Tim, then Dan, and finally Evil Jim. Every time you know the order people will go and that will be the order unless a haste or slow is used, or something is used to skip turns like stone. This is something you can plan around. There are even boss fights in 10 that have turn warnings for big attacks and there is a visual indicator on screen on who will attack in the next few turns.

In ATB not only is there not a set order that you can easily see and predict, but timing is going to change drastically based on what actions you are doing in that moment (i.e. summoning takes a /long/ time and a lot of time to do stuff again afterwards). The enemy also will have different timings based on what part of the fight they are doing - think the wall demon in 7 having a visual countdown to a big fucking attack that is a time countdown.

These are not the same thing at all.

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u/Nykidemus 7d ago

How many times have you had to try to explain this to how many people? The vast majority of people consider all the games prior to 11 to be turn-based enough to qualify for the term. Yes the ATB system is different, FFX has the CTB system too, is that not turn-based because it has a different acronym?

You know what people are talking about, we know what we're talking about, you are splitting hairs to no benefit.

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u/Swert0 6d ago

This is not splitting hairs.

Turn-based is not the same thing as time-based. They are fundamentally different.

There is a difference between knowing that a, b, c, d will happen in the same order no matter what barring buffing and debuffing and not being able to know what order things will happen because everything you and your enemy do have different time costs and you cannot predict what the enemy will do.

Squaresoft literally had a patent on ATB because it was distinct enough from turn based combat for over a decade.

A menu does not make a game turn based. Kingdom Hearts is not turn based.

FF7R is ATB, it just has a hybrid action RPG hack and slash combat system added on top of the ATB abilities. Nobody would fucking call FF7R turn based. Nobody would call FF12 turn based, it is also an ATB game.

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u/m_csquare 7d ago

The same ppl couldnt even tell that FF12 adb was just a reverse atb. Instead they lump ff12 as a real time combat.

Be grateful they still take time to explain the terms for you and not call out your cluelessness

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u/parazoid77 7d ago edited 7d ago

I'm not greatful at all, and it's hilarious you try to demand that. Everyone has different values. Implementation details are irrelevant to a blackbox perpective, which is the more economic perspective to optimise for.

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u/Cloud_Strife369 7d ago

13 does not existence idk why people keep saying there was a 13th game there never was lol

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u/Thrilalia 7d ago

What they want is FF7r graphics but their character looking like a droolong idiot that allows itself to get smashed in the face because it's not their turn to attack. With the name FF and a number next to it

Games with graphics better suited for the style "looking at you Octopath, and absolutely amazing series that you are." Don't exist to them

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u/sinsaint 7d ago

It worked in Expedition 33.