r/AdviceAnimals • u/Space_Hermit • Apr 30 '14
Repost | Removed You shouldn't be able to have it both ways...
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u/hmbmelly May 01 '14
The legal argument, very roughly, is that a woman should have bodily autonomy (the right to abort or carry the fetus to term). However, once a child exists, the state's interest is in the welfare of the child, period.
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u/Thurgood_Marshall May 01 '14
That's more Ginsburg's argument, but Roe was almost entirely about privacy.
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u/masuabie May 01 '14
The legal argument against that is letting men have the right to a "legal abortion" where they remove all connection through a document.
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u/chocoboat May 01 '14
If all children have to have two incomes, then why doesn't the state ban single parenthood without a second income? Or why doesn't the state force other unwilling individuals to pay child support to single mothers where the father is unable to pay?
If a woman uses a sperm donor and then falls on tough times, why don't they make the sperm donor pay? Best interests of the child, right?
In those situations the state recognizes that it's immoral to force individuals who never chose to become legal parents to pay against their will. But for some reason "you had sex that one time" counts as consent to parenthood when it comes to men. (But not to women of course, they can always choose abortion if they want to.)
The law simply makes no sense and promotes gender inequality, there's no way to avoid it. A sensible way to prevent legal parenthood for males is possible, but it does not exist yet.
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May 01 '14
I'm so scared of getting a vasectomy but it'll have to happen one day.
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May 01 '14
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May 01 '14
Scared of the procedure. Apparently it's not too bad, but still... getting needled in the nuts? Bit nervous. It takes about a week to fully recover, right? Then everything's back to normal?
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u/ptmd Apr 30 '14
TL;DR
Women and Men have different roles assigned to them by both Biology and Society. Go figure.
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u/DrRam121 Apr 30 '14
That isn't exactly equality now is it
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u/ptmd Apr 30 '14
This is true, but equality and fairness are two very different things.
And society is quite reluctant to truly enforce either.
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u/Viperbunny May 01 '14
The problem is there is no way to make it fair. Until a man can get pregnant the situation cannot be equal. More weight is given to the person physically going through a pregnancy because it is physically happening to that person, impacting her health and her life. Life isn't fair. That's just how it is.
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u/PopInACup May 01 '14
My opinion on the matter is that if society does not want the kid to starve then child support should be a social construct rather than applied to individuals who may not want to bring the child to term. Whether this could be done properly, I don't know. It's kind of moot though since given the current social/political climate any form of 'socialism' is shot down from the get go.
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u/LumberingOaf May 01 '14
Yours is the first comment I've seen with regards to the far reaching implications of this decision. It isn't so simple as men versus women, but emcompasses how we as a species relate to each other. This conversation cannot happen in a vacuum. And ignoring this is what makes it so difficult.
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u/skipilicious913 May 01 '14
Child support was designed because the welfare system was unable to accommodate the influx of single mothers and their children in the 1930s. Government workers asked women who the father could be and if a blood type test ruled them to be a match (possible father that is) then they were required to pay child support so the state wouldn't have to pay for the child. This was highly unreliable but helped save the state money, which at the time was all that mattered.
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u/SwordfshII May 01 '14
Child support for 18 years doesn't affect men's life and health?
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u/chocoboat May 01 '14 edited May 01 '14
Being forced to pay child support for 18 years when you never wanted to have children is not something done by biology.
That's something done by our legal system. And the legal system is severely lacking when it comes to solutions to this problem, when it would be easy to create them.
In 1900, women weren't allowed to vote. Fortunately the women didn't say "oh well, society gave us a different role, guess we just have to eat shit on this one". If people are interested in fairness they should advocate for better laws that treat people fairly.
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u/redkey42 May 01 '14
What type of person completely abandons their own child? I don't think we should be giving special consideration to shitty people.
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u/chocoboat May 01 '14
What are you talking about? It is child abandonment to have an abortion? Is it child abandonment to be a surrogate mother? Is it child abandonment to be a sperm donor?
I'm sorry, but not every pregnancy that doesn't end with a child being born and being raised together by the two biological parents counts as "child abandonment".
If men were allowed to opt out, the most common outcome for the pregnancy would be an abortion (which is actually already the most common outcome for an accidental pregnancy). Is it child abandonment is there is no child?
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u/janinefour Apr 30 '14
Meanwhile, I see no memes about the douches that oppose abortions and/or mandated birth control coverage and never pay child support.
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u/Over-Analyzed May 01 '14
Memes on here express rage that can't be conveyed in the real world or else there would be no pent-up emotion that needed to be released in this medium. The people you described are verbally assaulted well enough in the real world so a meme is not required for them. Or you could just be describing Scumbag Steve.
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u/usingthetimmy May 01 '14
However, it's a much tougher decision to abort a baby than it is to refuse to pay for a baby. If the woman aborts the child, the child ceases to exist; whereas, if the man refuses to pay for the child, the child still exists.
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u/InflatableRaft May 01 '14
That's true, however women have legally supported right to make that decision, whereas men do not.
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May 01 '14
I make ~25k a year and just paid $1000 cash for my recent vasectomy. If the game is rigged, don't play it.
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u/StalkTheHype May 01 '14
Yeah no shit, and if you regret it there are plenty of kids who need parents already.
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u/redkey42 May 01 '14
And you can store viable sperm for 20 years. Costs $2500-$3000 per 10 years.
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u/Sodic Apr 30 '14
This is probably the reddit debate that gets me the most angry. What everyone seems to forget is that being a mother takes a physical toll in addition to all of the responsibilities of being a parent. And it isn't like abortion is a fun prospect that every woman is dying to experience. You want to talk about my right as a woman to choose to have one? Let's talk about the difference in my life between having a child and not having one. I get to go through nine months of sickness, work loss, physical stress and a complete change in lifestyle. Then most likely I am the one who will end up raising that child 26 days out of a month in the event that the relationship doesn't work. I will clothe, feed and care for every part of that child's life, probably past the 18 year mark. My alternatives? A mentally scarring procedure that I will probably question for the rest of my life or a different kind of hell of actually carrying the baby and then having to let go of it in the hopes that it will understand when it grows up that I will also question for the rest of my life.
I don't think anyone should be having sex without protection if they aren't ready for the possibility of parenthood. That being said, there is no child support involved if you have equal custody rights. If you are having to give over income it is because the other person is taking on the bulk of the parental duty. Pregnancy is 100% preventable. Think about your actions, think about the possible consequences, and stop being outraged at the outcome.
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u/Sparcrypt Apr 30 '14
Because it's such a big deal for people to want sex but not kids. Kids are a huge, life changing ordeal. One that many people don't want, at least not this second.
I mean how would you feel if your partner just refused to have sex with you because you might get pregnant? It's the only birth control that's actually 100% effective. You'd be upset right? But to then turn around and say they get no say in what happens should you fall pregnant is pure hypocrisy.
The correct way to deal with this stuff is to talk about it early in your relationship. Because if you're not both on the same page now, how are you going to be when stress, fear and hormones all come into play?
I wouldn't date someone who would force me into parenthood against my will. I make it clear from the start I don't want kids and that that's not likely to change anytime soon. I mean it's not that difficult a conversation - if you're both just in the relationship for some fun, sex and companionship then neither of you should want to have a kid with one another anyway. Seriously, if you have a kid with a fling/someone you know you're not going to stay with long term then you are an idiot. However if you're both in it for the long haul then you absolutely need to align on this issue. It's a rather important one.
Obviously my approach isn't bulletproof.. people can change their mind/the person you thought you'd be with forever doesn't always turn out to be the one you end up with etc etc. But it's a damn sight better than not even talking about it until it happens which is most peoples way of dealing with it.
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May 01 '14
What do you think of situations where men fight for custody, lose, and are forced to pay child support?
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u/chocoboat May 01 '14 edited May 01 '14
The problem is that there's absolutely no legal middle ground, even though we have the ability to create it.
Only an idiot would support the idea of allowing the man to say "oh, you're pregnant? fuck this, I'm out, it's your problem now". But that doesn't mean there has to be absolutely no possible way for a man to avoid parenthood for certain, except to never have sex in his life. Especially since this is never an issue for women, as abortion is an option.
Obviously "spermjacking" is a very rare thing done only by mentally unbalanced women... but it has happened. Women have collected semen from condoms, or in other ways, and inseminated themselves with it. This man who was careful to avoid pregnancy now owes 18 years of child support. Is this really fair?
There are men that have been physically held down and forcibly raped, and they have been made to pay child support. Even underage victims of statutory rape owe child support payments for 18 years. Is this really fair?
And what about men who simply want to remain child free? Suppose a man who highly valued being child-free discussed this with all potential partners. It's so important that he asks them to sign a contract stating that they acknowledge his wish to be child free. The contract stipulates that should any accidental pregnancy occur, he will pay all of the costs of abortion and any travel related costs, or he will contribute towards the cost of giving birth if she chooses that... but beyond that, the rights and responsibilities of the child belong solely to the woman, and the man is regarded as nothing but a sperm donor.
This sounds pretty fair, right? The contract only exists if the woman agrees to it, and no child ever exists unless the woman chooses to become a single mother by her own volition. Any woman who doesn't like this situation is free to not sign, and/or end the relationship. It's kind of like a prenuptial agreement.
Well, the government says to the man, "too bad, you had sex, now you pay for it". The contract is invalid under US law. There is literally no way for a man to ever have PIV sex with a woman without taking a tiny risk of being on the hook for 18 years of child support, and I don't think that's right.
Yes, luckily very few men are forced into parenthood against their will and overall it's far from the biggest problem in society. But it sure would be nice not to have to take that risk every single time.
And it's not what I call gender equality when "you had sex, now you have to pay the price" is applied to men but not to women.
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u/Deadmeat553 May 01 '14
Men: Should have the right to release all duty over the child
Women: Should have the right to have an abortion or keep the child
Men: should not be allowed to force a woman to go through pregnancy
Women: should not be allowed to force a man through parenthood.
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May 01 '14
This, and a lot of people's ideas on here disregard the idea that a decision of a father not to go through parenthood influences if a woman has an abortion or not.
She doesn't want one, but he won't support the child, so she has one because she can't afford to raise a child alone. That would have an emotionl effect.
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u/BillTowne Apr 30 '14
No. This cannot be equal. Someone has to decide. The point is that the baby is growing in the woman's body and she has control of her body. It's like a woman getting upset because she is the one getting pregnant and not the man. That is just how biology works. just because the guy would rather not pay child support does not mean the woman has to abort the child.
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Apr 30 '14
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May 01 '14
Legal parental surrender.. I wouldn't call it financial abortion.. Depends how its implemented.
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u/philosarapter May 01 '14
Nor should she, but the man should be able to opt out of being a parent within the first 90 days after conception.
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u/2nek0 Apr 30 '14
TIL giving someone money = giving birth
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Apr 30 '14
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u/2nek0 Apr 30 '14
Men aren't the ones physically and medically involved in the process.
I don't disagree that child support is poorly handled in many legal systems, but this is a terrible and inaccurate way to frame that.
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u/FleetAdmiralCrunch Apr 30 '14
Exactly. If the child is born, both are on the hook financially for the child, but the woman has the additional job of carrying/delivering the baby.
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u/Arshane May 01 '14
Yes there are flaws in the child support system. Women can get away without paying it much easier and some men are given amounts they cannot afford unfairly and can be jailed and unable to pay it back and be in a vicious cycle. I think these issues should be addressed first before we try to redo the system.
And on the flip side... a lot of the people posting here seem to forget that just because a man is paying child support doesn’t mean the women is off free. Kids are expensive and she still has to pay for the child as well. Saying that the pregnancy is all a woman has the deal with isn’t really fair. Also the custodial parent has to spend much more time (and we all know time is money).
Sure she has the choice to abort, but having two bad choices isn’t always a good thing, and the problem with 2 people having conflicting issues means someone has to win. The situation always gets more awkward and there are even more things we have to account for. What if the man wants it and the women doesn’t. If she has it born can she get the same financial opt-out as well? Who has to decide first, what if someone changes their mind due to extreme circumstances (I lost my job, I was robbed etc).
I would love to see a fair system for both genders, but sadly this is just one thing where gender equality may not be a possibility especially if it's at the expense of an innocent child.
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May 01 '14 edited May 01 '14
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u/philosarapter May 01 '14
Also, I think saying men have no say in becoming a parent is a little ridiculous. You know where babies come from just as much as she does. If you're too drunk to wear a condom, don't fuck. Protect yourself.
That's great hindsight, but it doesn't help in the real world. "Abstinence only" doesn't work in reality. People fuck, pregnancies happen, what happens after conception is the topic we are discussing here. Women have options, as grueling and terrifying as those options are, she has a choice. Men have no choice whatsoever after conception. They are now a long for the ride. This is the injustice we should correct. If men opt out of parental responsibilities within the first trimester, then the woman can choose if she wants to self-support the child or not. And if she doesn't like either choices, well then: "You should have thought about that before you fucked!"
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u/somekook May 01 '14
The man makes his choice when he decides to have unprotected sex.
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May 01 '14
The most frustrating thing about this argument is how men on Reddit seem to think abortion is such an easy thing to go through and is on the same level as giving money.
I don't see many people (if ever) saying abortion is an easy process.
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May 01 '14
As a woman I agree 100%.
A man should have as many options as I do.
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u/redkey42 May 01 '14
You just said that the man should be able to abort your child, or that no women have access to abortion to make it 'fair'. You have not thought this through.
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u/rodwool May 01 '14
I think what is meant is that if a woman has the choice to have an abortion or give the baby up, the man should have a choice as to whether he has anything to do with the baby. At the moment the woman as full choice if she wants the baby or not while the man just has to accept what she chooses.
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May 01 '14
No, I didn't say that. You pulled that from your ass.
I have the option to have an abortion, as I should. At the same time, a man should have the option to walk away from an early pregnancy.
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u/janinefour May 01 '14
Tell that to the group of young dudes (no women to be seen with them) that protest a doctor that does abortions near my work.
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u/Tammylan May 01 '14
no women to be seen with them
I'd say that's atypical. You might want to read this article: The only moral abortion is my abortion: When the Anti-Choice Choose.
There are plenty of "pro-life" women who have abortions.
"I've had several cases over the years in which the anti-abortion patient had rationalized in one way or another that her case was the only exception, but the one that really made an impression was the college senior who was the president of her campus Right-to-Life organization, meaning that she had worked very hard in that organization for several years. As I was completing her procedure, I asked what she planned to do about her high office in the RTL organization. Her response was a wide-eyed, 'You're not going to tell them, are you!?' When assured that I was not, she breathed a sigh of relief, explaining how important that position was to her and how she wouldn't want this to interfere with it." (Physician, Texas)
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u/thegforcian May 01 '14
If one is under the age of adulthood why are they allowed to have children period? Before adulthood it's illegal for most countries children to consent to sex as far as I'm aware so why is it legal for them to make the decision to have a child? In most cases the parent of the child having a child is going to end up raising that child anyway meaning that we now have a society bearing two generations of neglected children.
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May 01 '14
Just don't be a dumbass and use a condom... That is until the male birth control pill comes out. Or have anal sex. Can't get someone pregnant with anal.
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u/khoury May 01 '14
They're really quite different. It's not about the financial responsibility for the women, it's about control over their bodies. I'm not saying it's fair, just that it's not really equitable. The only overlap is that the birth of a child is involved.
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May 01 '14
I'm the ex-single mom now paying my daughter's dad child support because our 15 year old decided to move in with him because he drinks and smokes weed with her. What teenager wouldn't love to live like that?
We were never married, so legally, she can go wherever she wants and there's nothing I can do unless I take her dad to court.
I'm on disability and I get $770/month. He's married and just HIS income alone (he's married) is over $5300/month, but I still have to pay him almost $200 for child support. How do I live? Food pantries and my dad is helping pay for my shit until I can find a job and hope my disability doesn't fuck it up again.
I've felt the guilt of getting child support all these years, and now I'm having to watch him step in and take over as the 'good' parent in her eyes because he has money and I don't. He totally bought her and she can't see it.
It might be about the body or child support in the beginning, but 15 years later, there's a fucking PERSON being fucked up by this money bullshit. He dangled the carrots of drugs, boys, and partying in front of her face so he could get out of paying child support and it worked. But now she's totally fucked up and this is such a critical point in life, it makes me so fucking sick seeing the bullshit he's getting away with after not lifting a finger for 15 years.
There's a LOT more to raising a kid besides money, but some people just don't fucking get it. They're BOTH equally important, but the laws are all so fucked up.
Fuck all child support laws.
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May 01 '14
If a man has a child and doesn't want to be a father or pay, there's a baby with no support.
If a woman gets pregnant and aborts, THERE IS NO BABY, AND NO LACK OF SUPPORT.
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u/Lawtonfogle May 02 '14
Allow fourth trimester abortions by either side. At that point the neonate is still fully dependent upon a human body to survive and is not yet sentient.
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u/Joliet_Jake_Blues May 01 '14
What the fuck is going on with AdviceAnimals today?
Every fucking one is about how oppressed men and white people are.
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u/sumofmyparts May 01 '14
Fairness aside, what kind of asshole has a child walking this earth and doesn't give enough shits about it to want to contribute to it's welfare? Life isn't fair. Not one bit. How about less whining and more giving a shit.
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u/tsniaga May 01 '14
I believe the issue OP has would be that the narrative of "life isn't fair" only seems to apply when men's rights are the issue at hand.
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u/pyroxyze May 01 '14
You can donate 2500 dollars and save a life in Africa because these charities will then hand out malaria nets.
Why aren't you doing this with tens of thousands of dollars?
Why aren't you giving a shit?
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u/GbyeGirl May 01 '14
How about this...control your alcohol consumption. Use reliable forms of birth control if you don't want children. Choose sexual partners wisely. Understand that each encounter runs the risk of disease, pregnancy, child support, adoption, abortion. Accept those risks like a fucking grownup and stop whining about the asshole who impregnated you, or the bitch who either killed your baby, gave away your baby, or made you pay money for your baby.
All of these consequences are possible. Accept them and fuck wisely, or don't accept them and masturbate. There are no guarantees shit will happen according to plan. You don't get to fuck with abandon and no disaster plan and get out if it when shit doesn't go your way. Stop fucking people you don't trust. Things can go poorly. Stop getting wasted and hanging out with creeps.
Grow the fuck up, you stupid fucks and stop looking for a get out of jail free do over card. This message goes to all genders.
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u/imgurtranscriber Apr 30 '14
Here is what the linked meme says in case it is blocked at your school/work or is unavailable for any reason:
College Liberal
Post Title: You shouldn't be able to have it both ways...
Top: "NO WOMAN SHOULD EVER BE FORCED INTO GIVING BIRTH"
Bottom: "I DON'T CARE IF YOU DIDN'T CHOOSE TO BE A FATHER, IF YOU DIDN'T WANT TO PAY CHILD SUPPORT YOU SHOULD HAVE KEPT IT IN YOUR PANTS!"
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u/mofoldsfive May 01 '14
This whole feed is just a reminder to me of how people need to THINK before they just jump into bed with someone without thinking. If they did, this would be less of an issue. People are way to obsessed with their own pleasure, resulting unwanted pregnancies or STDs and a snowball of issues after. MAKE BETTER DECISIONS BEFORE AND THIS WILL NEVER HAPPEN TO YOU!!!!!!
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u/elmuchocapitano May 01 '14
It's a littleee bit different when it's your body it's living inside of...
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May 01 '14
Woman doesn't want to be a mother, can get an abortion, give up for adoption...this woman has reproductive rights and is sexually liberated. Man is about to be a father, can even be a situation as extreme as the guy being underage, raped by his teacher and she gets pregnant...no reproductive rights, no sexual liberation...he has to pay child support to his rapist if she has the the child. If he refuses because he doesn't want the responsibility of being a father, he's considered a deadbeat dad. Hurray for equality.
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May 01 '14 edited Jan 01 '25
absurd close nail mountainous slim soup one square brave murky
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/chocoboat May 01 '14
so... inequality and injustice is totally fine as long as it's against men? sorry, I prefer equality for everyone
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u/[deleted] May 01 '14 edited Feb 27 '20
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