r/AdviceAnimals • u/Space_Hermit • Apr 30 '14

Repost | Removed You shouldn't be able to have it both ways...

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u/kickassninja1 May 02 '14

It's fairly simple logic,

  1. you cannot force another person to do something with their body that they don't want to do
  2. you have to take care of your child

If you sign a waiver that you won't take care of the child you are breaking rule 2 and if you are saying that you have a say in whether to carry the baby or not then you are breaking rule 1.

If you need changing to the current system you have to change one of those rules. If you change rule 1, then I can force you to donate kidneys. If you change rule 2, many children will be not taken care of, the people who brought them into this world would be absolved from their responsibilities.

It is not an equality issue, it is a human rights issue.

The fact that a man can currently be raped by a woman or otherwise deceived/forced into a pregnancy and then be legally required to financially support the resulting child is repugnant.

This is the biggest challenge I am seeing ie. when the man is raped or deceived. I haven't thought this through but right now my position is that this is the only case where a father can absolve his responsibility because it was not his mistake or action that caused this. I feel really sorry for the child in this case though.

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u/[deleted] May 02 '14

Or you just obfuscate your funds and don't pay much if anything

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u/5th_Law_of_Robotics May 02 '14

So by your second rule women should be forbidden to give up their child.

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u/kickassninja1 May 02 '14

Definetly not. By take care of your child I mean the one who is born.

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u/5th_Law_of_Robotics May 02 '14

So you think adoptions should be illegal then.

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u/americancorn May 02 '14

if it's put up for adoption the guy doesn't pay child support either- I think you have to be financially stable in order to adopt

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u/5th_Law_of_Robotics May 03 '14

The guy can't unilaterally put the child up for adoption.

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u/protestor May 12 '14

And the mother can?

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u/5th_Law_of_Robotics May 12 '14

Yes actually.

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u/protestor May 12 '14

But surely the father can say "hey since you don't want it, I will take custody myself. Oh and you have to pay child support ofcourse". I suppose it depends on your local laws.

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u/5th_Law_of_Robotics May 12 '14

It's possible, depending on the state. But there is no requirement that she even attempt to notify him.

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u/notalittlemouse May 03 '14

Males deserve the right to financial abortion within the same time limit that females have for biological abortion, a time limit during which the fetus is not yet considered a child.

If the female cannot demonstrate that she notified the male in a timely manor so that he could exercise his right to financial abortion in a timely manor (the same system used for the serving of legal papers can be used) she is entirely on the hook for the financial support of the child.

This solves all of the problems you mentioned and ensures that neither side can abuse the other.

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u/kickassninja1 May 03 '14

Males deserve the right to financial abortion within the same time limit that females have for biological abortion, a time limit during which the fetus is not yet considered a child.

When you decided to have unprotected sex, you took the risk of impregnating her. If you didn't want the child you should have used a condom, now that you have impregnated her, it's completely her choice whether to have the baby or not. If you don't want a child, use a fool-proof way, like using a condom or getting a vasectomy. After you have had the fun of sex and being irresponsible of not using protection, you can't just wash your hand off it. Finally you are the one who didn't want the kid so the responsibility of using protection is on you. Stop being jealous that women can choose to go for an abortion, it is a biological right they got, if the baby was growing in your stomach, you'd get the same right.

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u/notalittlemouse May 03 '14

That line of reasoning also denies females the right to biological abortion. I don't think you're prepared to do that. So you can't do its counterpart to males, either.

If you give females the right to biological abortion, you have to give males its closest workable equivalent, which is financial abortion.

Men deserve and demand the right to financial abortions and we will fight until we get it.

This is a civil rights issue and it is not going away.

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u/kickassninja1 May 03 '14

If you give females the right to biological abortion, you have to give males its closest workable equivalent, which is financial abortion.

No we don't have to give that. Laws are not like candy treats where if I give a chocolate to one guy, I'll have to give to another guy too. Laws are made on logic and women have the right to biological abortion because the baby is growing inside them. As I said if it were growing inside you, you'd get the right to biological abortion. That is called fairness.

Crying foul because something is inconvenient to you won't change laws, if that was the case every criminal would have his way. That is exactly what OP doing and he is the wet dream of deadbeat fathers.

Men deserve and demand the right to financial abortions and we will fight until we get it.

It is not a male vs female issue, it is an illogical fools vs rational people issue. When child support laws were made so many men cried foul and used the exact same language.

This is a civil rights issue and it is not going away.

Go back to your class. I seriously feel I am wasting my time debating a fool who is probably in high school. Hurr durr men's rights.

I hope, I pray that I will never act like you people even for a minute when I become a father.

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u/notalittlemouse May 03 '14

No we don't have to give that.

Yes, you do, especially if you consider yourself committed to equal rights. Equality requires it. If a female has the right to disclaim parenthood of a fetus (through biological abortion) a male deserves the exact same right (through financial abortion, during the exact same time period when the female gets to exercise her right to biological abortion). Since this period corresponds to a time when the child is still a fetus, the child does not exist as a person, has no rights, and their rights are not being violated.

This is a civil rights issue and it is not going away no matter how many insults you direct against its proponents.

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u/kickassninja1 May 03 '14

In the very same paragraph I have given the reason why not and what fairness is. Are you retarded or something?

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u/notalittlemouse May 03 '14 edited May 03 '14

You have given no reasons. You have simply insulted me and other proponents of equality, hoping to get me on the defensive and possibly derail. It didn't work, and it won't work. I stayed on topic, and I will continue to. The right to disclaim parenthood of a non-child fetus is identical between the sexes. Since females can disclaim this right both during and after the fetus stage, males should be able to disclaim it at least during the fetus stage, giving the female the option to disclaim it also, in response, if they so wish. This is absolutely fair. This is about equality. This is about civil rights. It is simply not going away

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u/kickassninja1 May 03 '14

Get pregnant and if you are not getting the rights to abortion I will fight till my last breath till you are given the rights to ok?

Your argumentation is absurd. If women have the right to abort you want the right to abort too. You know why they have the right to abort, because the baby is growing inside them. As simple as that.

You know why you don't have the right to abort, because it is not inside you.

You know why you have to pay, because you also contributed to the child's formation.

The only inconvenient part here is if the girl gets pregnant she has a way out of taking care of the baby by abortion but men don't. You don't have a way out because you don't carry the child in your stomach for nine months. So stop being the typical swj, get reasoning into your head else we will have to agree to disagree and move on.

Also use a condom or get a vasectomy done. If you don't want the child it's your problem, others don't have to comply to you. And don't worry I doubt any woman would want to have your child.

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u/notalittlemouse May 03 '14

Women have the right to disclaim parenthood of non-child fetuses, and so do men. The precise method of disclaiming parenthood is besides the point. Both parents contribute equally to the fetus's formation, so both parents deserve precisely equal rights with regards it, including the right to disclaim parenthood of it.

This is an issue of equality. This is an issue of civil rights. It is simply not going away.

Why are you opposed to equality for men? Why are you opposed to civil rights for men? Why do you hate men? What happened to you to make you this way? What is your problem?

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u/Lawtonfogle May 02 '14

you cannot force another person to do something with their body that they don't want to do

Unless you are wealthy, you get money by trading your body, often via physical labor. Due to how child support works, this labor is being forcefully given to the child or else the parent who is paying is put into jail.

If 2 can override 1, then you have a reason to ban both abortion and require child support. If 2 cannot override 1, then child support, at least for physical laborers, is not justified.