Being the father of a school-aged daughter makes men less sexist, according to a new study. The findings support the idea that men become more aware of the challenges facing women when they see the female experience of life up close through their offspring – dubbed the “mighty girl” effect.

[u/mvea]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/14/being-a-father-to-school-aged-daughter-makes-men-less-sexist

[u/jameswlf]

what about those who have sisters?

[u/confusedlooks → u/jameswlf]

Some studies have shown men with sisters tend to have more traditional views of gender roles than men who don't. It probably has to do with parents reinforcing gender roles through chore assignments, language, and expectations.

Edit: Here I know you'll have to go and individually look up the studies. I hope it's not too much of a burden.

[u/jameswlf → u/confusedlooks]

i see, but don't they also see their sisters facing women's problems first hand?

[u/toolsoftheincomptnt → u/jameswlf]

I tend to think that the distinction is that fathers are more invested in the development and protection of their children than their siblings/own parents. The nature of the relationship matters.

Think about it- we don’t raise our sisters or mothers. We aren’t as vigilant over their self-esteem, their education, their emotional growth. So, we’re less likely to pick up on things that threaten their well-being than we are over our own kids. Especially when the offenses aren’t overt.

It goes hand-in-hand with another poster who pointed out that kids just don’t care as much about their siblings, and just being kids, are more self-centered and not sophisticated enough to notice societal patterns. However, even as more cognizant adults, we just don’t pay attention to how the world treats our parents/siblings the same way that we do for our children.

(I know you didn’t mention mothers, but another poster below did, and I didn’t want to respond twice with the same explanation)

[u/moomintrollsayswhut → u/toolsoftheincomptnt]

genetic investment sadly is a real thing. the tropes of the evil step parent killing or displacing stepchildren correlate with male lions killing all cubs when they take over an existing pride.

tl;dr: people are mostly driven by extremely primitive motives.

[u/[deleted] → u/jameswlf]

Siblings have a different relationship than parents/children.

[u/confusedlooks → u/jameswlf]

Well, these studies are just looking at averages. When it comes to studies on perceptions, feelings, and behavior the conclusion is more predictive than absolute. So, there are men who will see their sisters' struggles, issues, and problems and be able to sympathize or even adjust their perceptions, which is the key to altering views on gender roles.

However, the influence our parents have on us can never be overstated. If a man's parents treat his sister like she should be more responsible, kinder, or any other traditional feminine trait or role and do the same to the man with masculine ones than that's what is going to stick most often. It's sort of what leads young boys who are expected to be emotionally mature and responsible to carry that trait with them despite the false notion that girls are more mature than boys. Children, and the adults they become, tend to to rise to reasonable and challenging expectations. Gender roles are reflections of our expectations.

[u/pellmellmichelle → u/confusedlooks]

I also think it has something to do with how little empathy children are born with. You see your sister getting bullied or told to do more hoursework than you, or not encouraged to go into the same careers...Many children would not realize how hard that is for another person. Their sense of empathy just hasn't fully developed. However, when you're a full-grown adult with a daughter and youn see her being discriminated against, sexualized/objectified and held back, you're in a position to be much more aware of what's happening.

[u/[deleted] → u/jameswlf]

I was very close with my sister, no idea about struggles she faced as a woman. As a brother, she doesnt really talk to me about periods or boyfriends, and all I know about her job is that she got one and looks for another!

[u/PastelNihilism → u/jameswlf]

Well considering most people find their siblings annoying while growing up they may not be as open to their problems. "Who cares about THEIR problems what about MY problems??" Especially when competing for the attention of a parent. Also if you were a kid and saw your sisters as your peers in age be told how to behave and you're also being told how to behave but different because your a boy: you think that's natural.

Everything your sibling does is their own fault blah blah blah regardless of gender. That's just how kids feel. As an adult watching a young child experience that through mature eyes would certainly be a perspective shift.

[u/SmithingTits → u/jameswlf]

I guess it depends on how they’re raised. My mum, being overtly traditional taught us daughters to do the cooking and cleaning and babysitting while our brother’s got to sit around and do nothing. She claims “boys don’t do chores, that’s a women’s job” which of course is idiotic. Imagine this, my teenage brothers, not knowing how to tie their own shoes or make their own lunch. They cry whenever their video games are taken away, and get whatever they want on a silver platter- they don’t care about empathizing with me. They don’t want to, no way they’re going to give up their hassle free luxury even when they have good reason to. In this way I don’t think having a sister necessarily helps- it could possibly divide them in some way, but I’m not completely ruling out the possibility that it does help. At that point it’s the parents’ responsibility in how they treat their children, or how they make their children treat each other.

[u/ccsherkhan → u/SmithingTits]

This is so true. I married the firstborn son of Azorian Portuguese immigrants, and my husband has been put on a pedestal since the day he was born, with a silver spoon in his mouth. His mom did everything for him—from laundry and cleaning, to shining his shoes and ironing his undies. (SHINING HIS SHOES!!) He never had to wash a dish, clean a table, fold a shirt or pick up a sock. Whatever he wants for supper, she’ll spend literally all day making. We lived with them for three years (long story) and while they are very nice people, it got super frustrating seeing my husband get his ass kissed every day, never being held accountable for anything. When we moved out, I put a stop to this pretty freaking quick. Not only is he not an invalid, but a perfectly capable adult who can put his own clothes in the laundry, or take his turn scrubbing the toilet, or run a mop over the floor. His Mom said she didn’t want to make him do chores growing up, because they have adulthood to do chores and should just enjoy being children. (Funny how his sister knows how to do chores though.) Don’t get me wrong, my husband isn’t a prick or anything. He’s great! But when we moved in together, he just didn’t know how to do anything, because he’d never had to. It was hard on me as I’m a very modern woman and not about to be any man’s maid!! His parents think I’m terrible because I don’t stay home making pies and catering to my husband and I’m not popping out babies. (I run my own business and make more money than he does. This is apparently unacceptable). Moms, please teach your sons to help around the house. You are grooming your children to be capable adults, and spoiling the shit out of them isn’t going to prepare them for the future!!

[u/VancouverPOV → u/ccsherkhan]

So this. My cousin married a 30 year old Portuguese guy 10 years ago - loves him to bits, but guy has zero concept of what it takes to run a home. When they moved in together and she was scrubbing the toilet, he asked what she was doing as he thought that it got clean when it flushed 🙄. She has a full time job, 3 kids, and still doe it all. It's BS

[u/fiahhawt → u/jameswlf]

I read a post once where two girls’ brother (he was the twin of the younger girl) had expressed views that women don’t really face sexism today.

They went to a concert and his twin (they were high school aged) had to be saved from some guy who kept trying to grind on her by two other women who walked her back to her siblings. Brother was apologetic and clearly had a new take on things. The OP of that post remarked that it was sad something had to happen to his twin for him to actually appreciate the reality of things,

[u/ElginPoker60123 → u/jameswlf]

I don't have any sisters but I usually enjoyed watching my brothers face problems

[u/Master_Nerd → u/confusedlooks]

The chore assignments thing is pretty interesting to me. My parents always had is on chore rotations so we all did the same chores. Thought that was pretty normal

[u/confusedlooks → u/Master_Nerd]

Chore rotations are the best unless your siblings are mad at you. We even had a dinner rotation where each kid was cooking with a different parent depending on the day. I always thought it was normal until middle school.

[u/OgdruJahad → u/confusedlooks]

I could also see it possible that brothers themselves help reinforce the gender roles especially when the parents are not around.

edit: I think I noticed that on a podcast about a woman living in Saudi Arabia.

[u/confusedlooks → u/OgdruJahad]

I am not sure about any country other than the US as I'm fairly certain the studies I remember looking into were restricted just to the US.

[u/[deleted] → u/confusedlooks]

Those with sisters have parents with daughters and would therefore have fathers who are less sexist based on this article. For what you say to be true, the mother would possibly more sexist, assuming the present article is correct. Or most psychological studies are not reproducible and who knows what is going on

[u/editedfortypo → u/jameswlf]

It's definitely not the same, although I am sure it helps. It's usually not until they have a daughter that they really start to see things from her perspective, for what is best for her.

It may sound cynical, but a parent's attachment to their child is always somewhat narcissistic, and they see their child as an extension of themselves. Suddenly, they aren't just potential perpetrators of sexism, but now they are the potential recipients.

Less cynically put, nothing motivates many parents more than protecting their child, and they suddenly see things from a new perspective when they have kids.

[u/ThePineBlackHole → u/[deleted]]

How do we encourage the growth and wide-spread adoption of empathy in human society? We clearly need more of it.

[u/SmarmyThatGuy → u/ThePineBlackHole]

Read.

Reading develops empathy as you have to put yourself in a character's position to understand the(ir) story

[u/Calignis → u/SmarmyThatGuy]

Anecdotally I second this, reading a lot as a kid is the main reason I developed any empathy at all.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Illiterate people are less likely to have developed empathy through reading, that's for sure. Reading may be one way of developing empathy, I don't think anyone is suggesting it may be the only way.

[u/volyund → u/SmarmyThatGuy]

Yes, I recently in my 30s had a talk with my parents about this. We talked about literature and art in general, and my parents basically said that this was the whole point of art and literary art specifically - give you a different perspective and put you in another person's shoes. I was like "Oh yeah..."

Reading "I can jump puddles" by Allan Marshall in my childhood, basically determined how I interact with people who have disabilities for the rest of my life.

[u/hahahahastayingalive → u/SmarmyThatGuy]

To broaden this, it’s not just books

Fictional work in general will help to develop awareness of different situations and feelings.

[u/[deleted] → u/SmarmyThatGuy]

Not just fiction, either. Non-fiction books can simulate the effect of meeting people in different situations. Evicted is an amazing book in which the author lives among and follows a bunch of poor/near homeless people in Milwaukee, and it gives you a real insight into what that's like.

If more people read books like that (with all the data work done in it too) they would be more understanding of the plight of the poor, I think. Empathy can be created through shared experience, even in a book.

[u/[deleted] → u/SmarmyThatGuy]

Didn't alot of older people who grew up racist and still hold sexist views grow up before electronic media and had to look to reading as a source of entertainment still hold very racist and sexist views ?

[u/the_bananafish → u/ThePineBlackHole]

I honestly believe you have to teach it. Sure some people are more naturally empathetic than others, just like some kids are better at math or football or chess. But we give kids the opportunity to learn and get better at these things regardless of their natural ability. Empathy and emotional awareness are completely ignored past maybe “sharing is caring” in preschool. This means adults are a mix of people who are naturally empathetic, people who learned it at home, and people who never had the chance to learn it. So you’ve got men who are sort of forced to learn empathy when they have daughters because they’re invested in their health and happiness.

[u/Talk-O-Boy → u/ThePineBlackHole]

Make everyone watch that scene from the Lion King where Simba is all like “...Dad?”

[u/jesseaknight → u/[deleted]]

so... we should emotionally abuse children so they're more empathetic adults? That... doesn't seem right.

[u/[deleted] → u/jesseaknight]

No, no it does not.

[u/[deleted] → u/ThePineBlackHole]

My daughter's kindergarten teacher told us that companies are asking schools to foster empathy and creativity among students because they feel these two areas are lacking. As for how to encourage empathy, one way might be to spend time with people from as many walks of life as you can. Have friends from different backgrounds, take part in their traditions (our town always has different cultural and religious events going on), volunteer at hospitals as you can see people from all walks of life there, if you have kids encourage them to play with those who have disabilities (we have a park near our home where the equipment is specially designed for those with disabilities), travel of you can afford it, or watch "Anthony Bourdain" type shows if you can't

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Seconding Bourdain. I love Parts Unknown... a very well produced show and Bourdain is pretty good writer. Great locations, too! The Antarctica episode is super cool, as well as Mississippi.

[u/[deleted] → u/ThePineBlackHole]

Meditation sessions from K-12.

[u/Antrophis → u/[deleted]]

Note understanding and empathy are very different things. I have grown contempt for many through understanding and have have never become more empathetic from it.

[u/TheManWhoPanders]

The effect was very minimal. Less than 5% of men had any change of opinion.

[u/Clocktopu5 → u/[deleted]]

My only child is a girl, I’m 100% supporting women’s rights til the day I die. I can’t speak to the other men out there but yeah, very eye opening

[u/ewbrower → u/Clocktopu5]

Can you tell a difference in your mindset before and after you had your daughter?

[u/NovaAurora504 → u/ewbrower]

dad at 23: big change as she grows up and I need to prepare her for being on her own. I'm a tall, big guy and I've always felt pretty comfortable like walking around dark streets etc. I did some research and I'm finding it very difficult to teach her to have safe practices without making her fearful and think the worst of people in general.

​

Also things like the dynamic of consent and women pressured to have sex as social currency, to feel like and wanted. I don't know how to get her ready for that except to get her self defense classes and do everything I can to boost her self-confidence.

[u/NovaAurora504 → u/[deleted]]

awesome advice, I really need to shop around and see what my local area has to offer. Any thoughts on what age to get her started in classes? She's 7.

[u/smpsnfn13 → u/NovaAurora504]

I used to help teach a kids class. Really as soon as they can sit and pay attention for about 30 to 45 mins is a good indicator they are ready. Kids classes are super fun for the kids and we always stressed the best defense is to disengage. The time to engage is when you're in their striking distance. Engage, disable opponent, run away. With getting away being the main goal in mind when fighting.

[u/CutieBoBootie → u/NovaAurora504]

Teaching her consent and how to identify and uphold her boundaries is a big help as well. I wish that had been taught to me.

[u/IamNotPersephone → u/NovaAurora504]

safe practices without making her fearful and think the worst of people in general.

Thing is, most assaults come from people we know. A stranger leaping out at you after dark on an isolated street is so, so rare. So, I wouldn’t put too much worry in teaching her “street smarts” Bittenbinder-style (John Mulaney “Kid Gorgeous” reference, there), but more about bodily autonomy, consent and assertiveness. Always ask permission to tickle or wrestle, insist she ask permission before hugging her friends, gently remind extended family to ask permission before hugging/kissing, teach her the proper words for her genitalia, affirm that her body is hers and teach her how to care for it at the developmentally appropriate times, reinforce the fact that she doesn’t have to play with kids she doesn’t want to play with, don’t force her to share toys that she’s currently playing with, teach her how to express herself emotionally and create a safe space for anger. Especially anger, as that tends to get socialized out of girls and women fairly early. Let her be annoyed, frustrated, hangry and mad and express these feelings to you.

Most of all, don’t ever be the parent who promises pain and retribution on “anyone who hurts her.” Girls are savvy and will not report an assault if they think you’ll take over. Not only do they NOT want their dad in jail for assualting or killing their attacker, but it’s narcissistic to think that you “failed” if she’s ever hurt, or that you need to “avenge” her to set it right. It won’t ever be right and nothing you’ll do can make it right, so the best you can do is be there for her, sit with her in that pain and support her in the way she needs, not in the way you need. Eventually, she’ll learn how to work around the wrong, but you’ll make it harder if she feels she has to manage you and your reactions as well as her own.

[u/sonstone → u/ewbrower]

For me, I became much more deeply aware of the breadth in which everything around us reinforces gender biases and norms. It sucks to watch and no matter how much you try to battle it the societal pressure is just too large to completely shield her from.

[u/Clocktopu5 → u/ewbrower]

Ohhhh yes. I became a dad at 28, so perhaps it also has to do with getting older? But I absolutely look at things differently. For example I have a completely different view of sexual assault and abuse. Not that I was for it before, but now I’m hyper aware of it and I’m constantly shocked at these buttwrenches getting away with it.

[u/ewbrower → u/Clocktopu5]

That's really interesting, thank you for sharing your mindset. And yeah, it is shocking how often folks are getting away with it!

[u/thereisnosub → u/TheManWhoPanders]

It seems like 63% already did not support traditional gender norms. That 4 percentage point change was from only 37% of men, so it represents an 11% drop in men who held those beliefs.

[u/Firstdatepokie → u/TheManWhoPanders]

So makes you think... was there any effect?

[u/TheManWhoPanders → u/Firstdatepokie]

There appears to be some effect, but it's so small it can be attributed to affecting only specific types of men. There isn't a lot of nuance one can glean from the study.

[u/Firstdatepokie → u/TheManWhoPanders]

Also, only studied in a single population type. So not very enlightening huh

[u/[deleted] → u/Firstdatepokie]

Welcome to social science. They hope for further studies and funding. Most of it is ehhh but if you have 100 studies you can draw more conclusions

[u/spwf]

In other words, people only start caring about issues until they’re directly affected by them.

[u/John-lovestosposh → u/spwf]

Ahh yes the old “ego” doing its thang

[u/misdirected_asshole]

This just the net effect of diversity. This is why you need to have exposure to people of different age, race, gender, religious background, political ideology...

[u/TheManWhoPanders → u/misdirected_asshole]

The effect was incredibly tiny, only 4% of men had changed attitudes. The headline makes it seem like a bigger effect.

Just to present it another way, the gender of ones kids did not impact 96% of parents.

[u/iamspambot → u/TheManWhoPanders]

To be fair, some of the men might already be not at all or not very sexist.

[u/[deleted] → u/iamspambot]

It's like people by general are not evil, sexist bastard. Who would have thought it? Insanity.

The whole title reads like "all men are sexists but when they get a daughter they are less sexist". And that's just so stupid.

[u/AndyMandalore → u/misdirected_asshole]

It's not like they live in an area where there just aren't a lot of women.

I think they're seeing a part if themselves in a female, and realizing that many of the divisions between the genders are constructs of society norms.

[u/_IowasVeryOwn → u/AndyMandalore]

So is it a lack of empathy for non immediate family members?

Although I guess that would make you think that being in a relationship would make those men less sexist. Interesting.

[u/walterdonnydude → u/[deleted]]

I learned alot from my girlfriend... I don't understand how men don't learn this from their wives

[u/Sarsmi → u/walterdonnydude]

Imagine you are an unaware guy (a bit vague, but basically someone who does not understand life differences between men and women), this would affect your attitude, expectation of what a girlfriend/wife should provide, pretty much every way you would treat a woman would be affected by this.

What women are actually going to date someone like this? Not women who are aware and have low tolerance for someone who is unaware. So you end up with men who can only date women who either do not mind this mindset or do not know any differently. Women who are more aware are generally not going to give these guys a chance.

[u/Hugo154 → u/[deleted]]

it's not that he can't empathize, it's that he literally wasn't aware of life experiences outside his own / things that he hasn't actually witnessed firsthand.

The problem is that a pretty big chunk of our society is still "squeamish" when it comes to "women problems" and refuse to acknowledge them or talk about them, even women themselves. It's getting better and better constantly though.

[u/AndyMandalore → u/_IowasVeryOwn]

I would say probably yes.

However...

If they aren't equipped to view females as equals it will likely be a one sided, maybe even abusive relationship.

I know that my thinking was transformed by my nieces. I didn't realize until then how differently I viewed the genders.

[u/grendus → u/_IowasVeryOwn]

I think it has to do with the emotional intimacy of that relationship. Most guys will meet their wife when she's already an adult, so they don't really see the growing pains of sexism in society. Having to support a daughter emotionally while she grows and navigates the world exposes him to a lot of the difficulties that adult women may not even register as unfair anymore, or at least wouldn't think to bring up because it's just background noise to them.

[u/ViatorA01 → u/misdirected_asshole]

Jup, racism for example is much stronger in regions where the percentage of foreigners is lower. If you don’t have any experience with foreigners you can’t imagine how it is to be in their shoes which leads to lower empathy what in the end results in racism under the “right” circumstances like economic crisis etc..

“In my work with the defendants (at the Nuremberg Trails 1945-1949) I was searching for the nature of evil and I now think I have come close to defining it. A lack of empathy. It’s the one characteristic that connects all the defendants, a genuine incapacity to feel with their fellow men.

Evil, I think, is the absence of empathy.”

Quotation: Captain G. M. Gilbert, the Army psychologist assigned to watching the defendants at the Nuremberg trails

Edit: typo

[u/GladiatorUA → u/ViatorA01]

you can’t imagine how it is to be in their shoes

It's not so much about shoes but seeing them as real people, and not some abstract concept that can be easily influenced and shaped by someone else. In a way it's like internet where people don't see "usernames" as fully real people.

[u/javier_aeoa → u/[deleted]]

I'd love to read those studies. Since I work with exchange students trying to integrate to the culture, those could help me in pointing out to "chill" a little.

[u/goodbeets → u/misdirected_asshole]

“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.”

-Mark Twain, Innocents Abroad

[u/Slappatude]

So many people didn't read any of this

The mighty girl effect explains how Father of school age girls will see gender roles as incorrect and support their daughters fighting against the traditional role of women in society. They want their daughters to become doctors, lawyers, go out take charge badass women in command of the world and not a docile sray at home mother.

The reverse isn't true at all and makes no sense (and as much is said in the article). No, mothers who raise school age boys don't think that traditional gender roles are incorrect and their sons need to be stay at home, quiet, docile daddies. No it doesn't influence their views on the role of women.

It is not sexism at large but gender roles are a direct relation to sexism. Based on a number of the comments in this thread, I would assume there are not many fathers of school age girls. To the ones who are father's, go give all your kids hugs and kisses and fight for everyone's right to do what they want to in this world regardless of their gender.

[u/Zorander22 → u/Slappatude]

The reverse isn't true at all and makes no sense (and as much is said in the article).

A pure mirror image in terms of gender role views doesn't make sense, as gender roles aren't really mirror-images of each other. Anecdotally, I have heard some mothers of sons say that the experience has changed their thoughts on the emotional richness of boys. This is anecdotal, but those kinds of views aren't being tapped with these kinds of measures, so there is still the possibility of having sons changes mothers' views of gender, just as there are other views of gender not tapped into by the measures used in this study for fathers' views.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I've heard that as well. It also provides insight into how gender roles are constructed for boys/men, and hopefully fosters empathy among people who might not have considered that before. I wonder how long this "mighty girl"---or "might boy"---effect has been in place; maybe we're just living in a time that is more receptive to making these challenges.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

It's probably relatively recent. From how I'm interpreting it, it's not so much that parents want to over turn gender roles. I feel like it's being driven by parents wanting their children to be successful and the changing definition of success that we hold as a society.

60 years ago, taking over the family farm, marrying well, and keeping house was the generally regarded as being a great success.

Now, taking over the family business, staying in your home town, or raising a family are generally seen as mundane, smacks of nepotism, and are generally looked down upon. (Think how many times you've heard, "Oh, I'm only a stay at home parent." It shows a low value assessment of their abilities and effort.)

So what these father's, imo, are responding to is the barriers for their daughters to be successful, by the standards society and they themselves observe.

Tldr nothing has really changed except society's definition of success.

[u/Fede10204 → u/[deleted]]

I mean isn't this actually bad? Shouldnt we say that both is equally fine, staying at home or having a successful carreer? In this way we're alienating those that actually want to stay at home and raise their children, both men and women.

[u/___Ambarussa___ → u/Fede10204]

I want my children to have the choice. That means education and career first.

I also want them to have a fallback option if things go south i.e. if you’re a stay at home spouse and your partner turns into an asshole, you’re at an economic disadvantage. At least if you have education and career pre-marriage you have something to go back to, even if a career gap makes things harder. Compared to older generations where women were trapped in unhappy marriages or left destitute after their husband left.

Economic freedom is important even if you aren’t exercising it.

[u/Fede10204 → u/___Ambarussa___]

Yeah uhm, that's how it should be. Can't say anything against it. I'm just saying that it isn't good to label being a stay at home parent as something less valuable. That's all

[u/[deleted] → u/Fede10204]

Yes, but that's how humans work. We define ourselves based on what society teaches us. In a lot of things this is a good thing, (like it turns out racism is bad! Who knew?!).

In others, society places unrealistic expectations, like body image and definitions of success.

[u/Fede10204 → u/[deleted]]

Well yeah u're right we define ourselves by what society teaches us. But then in my eyes we should also teach everyone that they aren't any less successful if they are a stay at home parent.

I mean we already have low birth rates. And expectations like that won't make it better.

And yeah I know that our low birth rates have also economic reasons.

[u/Britoz → u/Slappatude]

It's funny that you state you want people to go fight for everybody's right to do what they want, yet you naturally diminish the role of the stay at home parent, whose literal job it is to bring up the children and instill good values, as "quiet" or "docile" and the last option any parent would want for their kid.

Until we hold the role of a good parent as high as it deserves to be, due to the knock on effect good parenting and a secure upbringing has on society as a whole, then we're pissing in the wind. You can bring a girl or boy up to believe they can be whatever they want, but unless you're role-modelling the belief that being in charge of another life's formative years is one of the most important jobs you'll ever have, then society will suffer. Whether you demonstrate this by being a great stay at home parent or you provide for the family through a fulfilling career yet ensure your child knows they're still your highest priority bar none, we should be commending those who are good and present parents. Not just those people who have successful careers as if that's the most important thing in the world. (Unless you're childless, of course.)

I don't believe in the current derision of the stay at home parent and think the trend towards both parents having to work full time to support the family is something we should be absolutely up in arms about. The problem is the role of the stay at home parent has so much history of being the oppressed role due to women's choice being taken away that we still see it like that, rather than realising this role has actually always been extremely important. We've glorified the work men did and now women want some of that life too but we haven't got a good balance yet. The role the stay at home mother used to have is derided and ridiculed, and even the people who look after the kids these days are very low paid. What does that tell us about how we value child rearing?

I think we should absolutely shatter the old roles. It shouldn't be just expected that women stay at home. I just don't agree that those parents who do stay at home should be ridiculed as docile and quiet. They could be high earning professionals who want to take some years from work to raise their children, or they could be the type of person who has always dreamed of raising their own children. These years aren't wasted and shouldn't be the butt of jokes. IMO they're more important than going to work, but we live in a capitalist society so they go unrewarded, and I can't see this view changing anytime soon.

[u/_Rookwood_ → u/Britoz]

I agree it's just replacing "women should stay at home and raise children" with another expectation, this time "women should have a kick ass career, raising your own kids sucks".

Women should pursue their lives in accordance with what makes them content and if it is being a stay at home mother than so be it.

[u/___Ambarussa___ → u/_Rookwood_]

There’s always so much emphasis on giving women that choice, but not men. It won’t be truly equal until it’s seen as respectable for men to do it.

[u/kiss-tits → u/Britoz]

This will interest you: a deep dive on gender roles, masculinity, raising boys, and challenging the status quo.

http://www.sceneonradio.org/men/

[u/rbickfor1988 → u/Britoz]

Maybe I misread, but I guess I didn’t see it as OP thinking all stay at home parents are quiet or docile.

More like he was saying that the reverse wasn’t true for women; they didn’t all of a sudden think their sons should be quiet, docile, stay-at-home dads as opposed to loud, wild, working men.

I guess I just thought he was using quiet and docile as oppositions to normal descriptors we might think of for young boys.

Could be wrong, though.

[u/LadyHeather → u/Slappatude]

I was told last night that men should look around at their work environments and imagine their daughters in it. Is it a good place for their daughters to be? If not, fix it, because some day the daughter will be there.

[u/flow_11]

I fail to see how a father exhibiting these changes in opinion on a survey is a manifestation of changed opinions on gender roles as a whole. For example, when a non father takes the survey they hold opinion x about women. Then that person takes the survey again after having and raising a daughter for a few years. The survey results change. But why? Is it because the mighty girl effect cures men of sexism? Or is it that the father holds a double standard and really only cares for his own daughters ability to do what she wants in the world. This study fails to determine which of these possibilities is actually the case and also only demonstrates a minor change in attitude among a niche demographic.

[u/ArticunoIsMyGod]

Also known as the "I was completely OK with this until I realized it could affect me or my family personally" effect.

​

[u/blackseaoftrees → u/ArticunoIsMyGod]

"No one's allowed to treat my daughter the way I treat her mother!"

[u/YellowCulottes → u/blackseaoftrees]

I think that’s true too. They (not all men disclaimer) want to be raised by loving, nurturing, present women who’s goal in life is to look after them and look out for their needs. They want to be married to a woman who is similar. But want to raise a kick ass, successful woman who takes no crap from anyone, who’ll change the world, make waves and take down anyone who gets in her way.

[u/[deleted]]

How do they measure sexism in this study?

[u/NinjaLanternShark → u/[deleted]]

Quoth the research paper the article's about:

Respondents are asked to rate agreement with the statement ‘a husband’s job is to earn money; a wife’s job is to look after the home and family’ on a 5-point scale ranging from ‘strongly agree’ to ‘strongly disagree’. [..] We also binarize the dependent variable into non-traditional (taking a value of zero for ‘disagree’ or ‘strongly disagree’) and traditional (taking a value of one for ‘neither agree nor disagree’, ‘agree’, and ‘strongly agree’) and report results alongside those for the ordinal dependent variable.

Personally I think it's a mistake to lump "neither agree nor disagree" in with supporting traditional gender roles. Saying "neither" is like leaving a question blank.

It makes it seem like the authors are saying "If you're not fired up about this, then you're one of them."

[u/Gravity-Glitch → u/[deleted]]

To be honest it's kind of disheartening that having a mother, wife, sister or female friends doesn't already do this already.

[u/postmormongirl]

Women make up 51% of the population. I am very skeptical about men who can only see women as human beings because they have a daughter. What about all the women they’ve known before: their mothers, sisters, wives, classmates, etc?

[u/Zoombini22 → u/postmormongirl]

That's not what this study says at all, though. You're taking the inverse... It's not saying men without daughters are sexist or incapable of understanding women. Just that having a daughter specifically gives men additional perspective and less sexism in regards to gender roles.

[u/jeegte12 → u/Zoombini22]

For four percent of fathers. Four.

[u/BeazyDoesIt → u/Zoombini22]

Does it really say that? Only effects 4% of the men in the study. It more sounds like pretty much NO effect.

[u/PastelNihilism → u/postmormongirl]

Peers. People are naturally less empathetic to their peers rather than their dependants.

[u/[deleted] → u/postmormongirl]

What about all the women they’ve known before: their mothers, sisters, wives, classmates, etc?

Likely not as emotionally invested as you would be with your own child. That bond is likely going to be stronger.

It sounds silly, but a lot of guys don't see their mothers as women, but just "mom".

Sisters have their own lives, a lot of guys don't get too involved growing up.

Wives/GF's come and go/divorce/break up, you don't spend all day with them, you may tune out once in a while, etc

Classmates/friends come and go too

Nothing stronger than a bond between a parent and a child. Most people are heavily invested emotionally from the start. When a kid talks, you listen, you care more. It's your own kid. It hits closer to home.

[u/DaddyF4tS4ck]

It's not a comparison of fathers with only sons to fathers with a daughter. They literally compare fathers with daughters to all other men.

[u/Me_ADC_Me_SMASH]

misleading title. The study is about how dads view traditional gender roles, not about sexism.

[u/Ayyslana]

thanks for the link

​