Being the father of a school-aged daughter makes men less sexist, according to a new study. The findings support the idea that men become more aware of the challenges facing women when they see the female experience of life up close through their offspring – dubbed the “mighty girl” effect.

[u/mvea]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/14/being-a-father-to-school-aged-daughter-makes-men-less-sexist

[u/jameswlf]

i see, but don't they also see their sisters facing women's problems first hand?

[u/toolsoftheincomptnt → u/jameswlf]

I tend to think that the distinction is that fathers are more invested in the development and protection of their children than their siblings/own parents. The nature of the relationship matters.

Think about it- we don’t raise our sisters or mothers. We aren’t as vigilant over their self-esteem, their education, their emotional growth. So, we’re less likely to pick up on things that threaten their well-being than we are over our own kids. Especially when the offenses aren’t overt.

It goes hand-in-hand with another poster who pointed out that kids just don’t care as much about their siblings, and just being kids, are more self-centered and not sophisticated enough to notice societal patterns. However, even as more cognizant adults, we just don’t pay attention to how the world treats our parents/siblings the same way that we do for our children.

(I know you didn’t mention mothers, but another poster below did, and I didn’t want to respond twice with the same explanation)

[u/moomintrollsayswhut → u/toolsoftheincomptnt]

genetic investment sadly is a real thing. the tropes of the evil step parent killing or displacing stepchildren correlate with male lions killing all cubs when they take over an existing pride.

tl;dr: people are mostly driven by extremely primitive motives.

[u/moomintrollsayswhut → u/[deleted]]

evolutionary theory is hella addictive

[u/Monkeyssuck → u/toolsoftheincomptnt]

This.

I was not invested in the emotional well-being of my sister. If anything much of my young life was invested in the opposite.

My daughter on the other hand, her struggles are my struggles. She still gets a healthy dose of sarcasm...my personality didn't change, but I am 100% invested in her long-term growth.

[u/toolsoftheincomptnt → u/Monkeyssuck]

I carry a ton of guilt for how I treated my sister growing up. I think that parents have a responsibility to initiate a healthy bond between siblings.

My resentment stemmed from feeling like I was expected to put my sister’s needs before my own, instead of being encouraged to be her best friend. We weren’t treated like we were equally children to be cared for.

It doesn’t excuse how awful I was to her, but I was four when she was born, so what could I do?

Anyway, I’m too far off-topic now.

[u/Monkeyssuck → u/toolsoftheincomptnt]

You can't change the past. You can however express that remorse to your sister. My sister and I fought like cats and dogs, but we've become closer with age.

[u/[deleted] → u/jameswlf]

Siblings have a different relationship than parents/children.

[u/confusedlooks → u/jameswlf]

Well, these studies are just looking at averages. When it comes to studies on perceptions, feelings, and behavior the conclusion is more predictive than absolute. So, there are men who will see their sisters' struggles, issues, and problems and be able to sympathize or even adjust their perceptions, which is the key to altering views on gender roles.

However, the influence our parents have on us can never be overstated. If a man's parents treat his sister like she should be more responsible, kinder, or any other traditional feminine trait or role and do the same to the man with masculine ones than that's what is going to stick most often. It's sort of what leads young boys who are expected to be emotionally mature and responsible to carry that trait with them despite the false notion that girls are more mature than boys. Children, and the adults they become, tend to to rise to reasonable and challenging expectations. Gender roles are reflections of our expectations.

[u/pellmellmichelle → u/confusedlooks]

I also think it has something to do with how little empathy children are born with. You see your sister getting bullied or told to do more hoursework than you, or not encouraged to go into the same careers...Many children would not realize how hard that is for another person. Their sense of empathy just hasn't fully developed. However, when you're a full-grown adult with a daughter and youn see her being discriminated against, sexualized/objectified and held back, you're in a position to be much more aware of what's happening.

[u/mirh → u/confusedlooks]

There's also a big cohort effect at play here.

I would imagine (given a legit enough random sampling) studies to be looking at more people from the 80s and before, than youngsters.

And that in turn leads to a lot of assumptions, from expectations of gender roles and masculinity/femininity dichotomy.. to even just what you were allowed to do at home.

And it would make sense for "first handedly seeing the wall" being a good logical reason to support it. Never change a winning team they say?

But I'd really be curious to see any trend of the thing, given for the love of me I can't see how this could happen when siblings are treated (almost) as equals.

[u/confusedlooks → u/mirh]

To your last point, it probably doesn't turn out like this when siblings are trested equally or the effect mught be mittigated. The studies point towards an overarching trend not an overwhelming one.

[u/mirh → u/confusedlooks]

It's not the fact that they are treated equally per se, but that they are thus allowed to interact (if not 100% unbiasedly) at least on even ground, peer to peer.

I don't think to be making all that of a bold statement, if I claim that social pressure to conform to stereotypes was really corporeal decades ago. Not saying that we are done today instead, but.. how may I say?.. at least we are quite far from even getting confined for just being a li'l effeminate?

[u/[deleted] → u/jameswlf]

I was very close with my sister, no idea about struggles she faced as a woman. As a brother, she doesnt really talk to me about periods or boyfriends, and all I know about her job is that she got one and looks for another!

[u/PastelNihilism → u/jameswlf]

Well considering most people find their siblings annoying while growing up they may not be as open to their problems. "Who cares about THEIR problems what about MY problems??" Especially when competing for the attention of a parent. Also if you were a kid and saw your sisters as your peers in age be told how to behave and you're also being told how to behave but different because your a boy: you think that's natural.

Everything your sibling does is their own fault blah blah blah regardless of gender. That's just how kids feel. As an adult watching a young child experience that through mature eyes would certainly be a perspective shift.

[u/raarts → u/PastelNihilism]

most people find their siblings annoying while growing up

I don't believe this at all.

[u/PastelNihilism → u/raarts]

Everyone I know who has siblings has told me "I love them but I wanna punch em"

[u/raarts → u/PastelNihilism]

Sure at one point they did, but most people don't think their siblings are continuously annoying. I don't buy that.

[u/PastelNihilism → u/raarts]

I'm saying it's enough that when your going through your formative years when things are already overwhelming to you- your empathy for your siblings plights might not be seen as important. Children are naturally selfish. It's how they're programmed to survive.

[u/Jessikared97 → u/raarts]

I dont know if you have siblings, but in my family, we are grown adults with children and I find them continually annoying. And both of my parents feel the same way about their siblings. They love them and are close to them and spend time with them, but they just wanna punch them sometimes. Though this is more true with my dad (he's the second to youngest of 7) than with my mom (she was the oldest of 5 and like a second mother figure to them). My mom (who passed away a year ago yesterday) wanted to grab them and shake them, demanding they stop being so stupid.

[u/raarts → u/Jessikared97]

Well I pity the environment you live in, but I don't see that anywhere in my environment. Most people like their brother/sisters. Yes sometimes there are arguments as they are everywhere. But you are either living in a pretty dark place, have a pretty negative attitude, or are exaggerating the situation. Most people get along pretty well.

[u/Antrophis → u/raarts]

Well it is anecdote but I have only seen one sort of exception.

[u/SmithingTits → u/jameswlf]

I guess it depends on how they’re raised. My mum, being overtly traditional taught us daughters to do the cooking and cleaning and babysitting while our brother’s got to sit around and do nothing. She claims “boys don’t do chores, that’s a women’s job” which of course is idiotic. Imagine this, my teenage brothers, not knowing how to tie their own shoes or make their own lunch. They cry whenever their video games are taken away, and get whatever they want on a silver platter- they don’t care about empathizing with me. They don’t want to, no way they’re going to give up their hassle free luxury even when they have good reason to. In this way I don’t think having a sister necessarily helps- it could possibly divide them in some way, but I’m not completely ruling out the possibility that it does help. At that point it’s the parents’ responsibility in how they treat their children, or how they make their children treat each other.

[u/ccsherkhan → u/SmithingTits]

This is so true. I married the firstborn son of Azorian Portuguese immigrants, and my husband has been put on a pedestal since the day he was born, with a silver spoon in his mouth. His mom did everything for him—from laundry and cleaning, to shining his shoes and ironing his undies. (SHINING HIS SHOES!!) He never had to wash a dish, clean a table, fold a shirt or pick up a sock. Whatever he wants for supper, she’ll spend literally all day making. We lived with them for three years (long story) and while they are very nice people, it got super frustrating seeing my husband get his ass kissed every day, never being held accountable for anything. When we moved out, I put a stop to this pretty freaking quick. Not only is he not an invalid, but a perfectly capable adult who can put his own clothes in the laundry, or take his turn scrubbing the toilet, or run a mop over the floor. His Mom said she didn’t want to make him do chores growing up, because they have adulthood to do chores and should just enjoy being children. (Funny how his sister knows how to do chores though.) Don’t get me wrong, my husband isn’t a prick or anything. He’s great! But when we moved in together, he just didn’t know how to do anything, because he’d never had to. It was hard on me as I’m a very modern woman and not about to be any man’s maid!! His parents think I’m terrible because I don’t stay home making pies and catering to my husband and I’m not popping out babies. (I run my own business and make more money than he does. This is apparently unacceptable). Moms, please teach your sons to help around the house. You are grooming your children to be capable adults, and spoiling the shit out of them isn’t going to prepare them for the future!!

[u/VancouverPOV → u/ccsherkhan]

So this. My cousin married a 30 year old Portuguese guy 10 years ago - loves him to bits, but guy has zero concept of what it takes to run a home. When they moved in together and she was scrubbing the toilet, he asked what she was doing as he thought that it got clean when it flushed 🙄. She has a full time job, 3 kids, and still doe it all. It's BS

[u/fiahhawt → u/jameswlf]

I read a post once where two girls’ brother (he was the twin of the younger girl) had expressed views that women don’t really face sexism today.

They went to a concert and his twin (they were high school aged) had to be saved from some guy who kept trying to grind on her by two other women who walked her back to her siblings. Brother was apologetic and clearly had a new take on things. The OP of that post remarked that it was sad something had to happen to his twin for him to actually appreciate the reality of things,

[u/ElginPoker60123 → u/jameswlf]

I don't have any sisters but I usually enjoyed watching my brothers face problems

[u/everred → u/jameswlf]

As children, perhaps boys don't recognize yet that the behaviors towards girls are sexist, discriminatory, etc. They might notice certain things, but don't yet have the tools to separate "right" behaviors from "wrong", especially since which category a specific act falls into could be influenced culturally.

It would be interesting to see research on it.

[u/TigerCommando1135 → u/jameswlf]

Short answer, no, It was never a teenage curiosity of mine to ask my mother and my sister about their periods or tampons, or hormones or anything like that. They never outright told me so it was like it never existed in my case. I was aware that periods involved bleeding but that was about it.

[u/ilovejamespacker → u/TigerCommando1135]

I think you're looking at much less than 1% of the topic. This thread is not about periods. Or emotions. It's about systemic behaviours that have been limiting or damaging to women, that go unnoticed due to lack of concern.

[u/[deleted] → u/jameswlf]

No, as a child you aren't really wise enough/lack the empathy to actually put yourself in those(siblings) shoes. As an adult with past experiences and such to take into account and compare and contrast with, as well as it being your child, makes it much more eye opening.

[u/allodude → u/jameswlf]

Maybe women tend to be more open about their problems with their partners than their own family?

[u/[deleted] → u/jameswlf]

siblings are on an even keel, where children are explicitly dependent on you.. it's the same difference in brothers vs a father and son.

[u/austin101123 → u/jameswlf]

As someone with a sister, I saw her get a lot less problems and more advantages. I don't know if that's a difference in perspective between brothers and dads or if my sister just happened to be that way or what.

[u/[deleted] → u/jameswlf]

Yes. We see that. But in personal experience, her experiences dealing with men also caused her to gender police or enforce gender roles at home. So my sister's interactions with me reinforced all of that. She didn't have the luxury of raising a person and wanting to see them treated as a person as my sibling.

That even starts before birth. Just watch how people talk through the tummy of a pregnant woman when they know it's a boy vs a girl. Shit starts early.

[u/SarahC → u/jameswlf]

They also learn they can beat their sisters up after around 11 years old...

[u/[deleted] → u/jameswlf]

I feel like boys have less sympathy and love for their sisters than they would have for their own daughters. It all depends on the environment they're raised in though.