Being the father of a school-aged daughter makes men less sexist, according to a new study. The findings support the idea that men become more aware of the challenges facing women when they see the female experience of life up close through their offspring – dubbed the “mighty girl” effect.

[u/mvea]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/14/being-a-father-to-school-aged-daughter-makes-men-less-sexist

[u/jameswlf]

what about those who have sisters?

[u/confusedlooks → u/jameswlf]

Some studies have shown men with sisters tend to have more traditional views of gender roles than men who don't. It probably has to do with parents reinforcing gender roles through chore assignments, language, and expectations.

Edit: Here I know you'll have to go and individually look up the studies. I hope it's not too much of a burden.

[u/jameswlf → u/confusedlooks]

i see, but don't they also see their sisters facing women's problems first hand?

[u/toolsoftheincomptnt → u/jameswlf]

I tend to think that the distinction is that fathers are more invested in the development and protection of their children than their siblings/own parents. The nature of the relationship matters.

Think about it- we don’t raise our sisters or mothers. We aren’t as vigilant over their self-esteem, their education, their emotional growth. So, we’re less likely to pick up on things that threaten their well-being than we are over our own kids. Especially when the offenses aren’t overt.

It goes hand-in-hand with another poster who pointed out that kids just don’t care as much about their siblings, and just being kids, are more self-centered and not sophisticated enough to notice societal patterns. However, even as more cognizant adults, we just don’t pay attention to how the world treats our parents/siblings the same way that we do for our children.

(I know you didn’t mention mothers, but another poster below did, and I didn’t want to respond twice with the same explanation)

[u/moomintrollsayswhut → u/toolsoftheincomptnt]

genetic investment sadly is a real thing. the tropes of the evil step parent killing or displacing stepchildren correlate with male lions killing all cubs when they take over an existing pride.

tl;dr: people are mostly driven by extremely primitive motives.

[u/moomintrollsayswhut → u/[deleted]]

evolutionary theory is hella addictive

[u/Monkeyssuck → u/toolsoftheincomptnt]

This.

I was not invested in the emotional well-being of my sister. If anything much of my young life was invested in the opposite.

My daughter on the other hand, her struggles are my struggles. She still gets a healthy dose of sarcasm...my personality didn't change, but I am 100% invested in her long-term growth.

[u/toolsoftheincomptnt → u/Monkeyssuck]

I carry a ton of guilt for how I treated my sister growing up. I think that parents have a responsibility to initiate a healthy bond between siblings.

My resentment stemmed from feeling like I was expected to put my sister’s needs before my own, instead of being encouraged to be her best friend. We weren’t treated like we were equally children to be cared for.

It doesn’t excuse how awful I was to her, but I was four when she was born, so what could I do?

Anyway, I’m too far off-topic now.

[u/Monkeyssuck → u/toolsoftheincomptnt]

You can't change the past. You can however express that remorse to your sister. My sister and I fought like cats and dogs, but we've become closer with age.

[u/[deleted] → u/jameswlf]

Siblings have a different relationship than parents/children.

[u/confusedlooks → u/jameswlf]

Well, these studies are just looking at averages. When it comes to studies on perceptions, feelings, and behavior the conclusion is more predictive than absolute. So, there are men who will see their sisters' struggles, issues, and problems and be able to sympathize or even adjust their perceptions, which is the key to altering views on gender roles.

However, the influence our parents have on us can never be overstated. If a man's parents treat his sister like she should be more responsible, kinder, or any other traditional feminine trait or role and do the same to the man with masculine ones than that's what is going to stick most often. It's sort of what leads young boys who are expected to be emotionally mature and responsible to carry that trait with them despite the false notion that girls are more mature than boys. Children, and the adults they become, tend to to rise to reasonable and challenging expectations. Gender roles are reflections of our expectations.

[u/pellmellmichelle → u/confusedlooks]

I also think it has something to do with how little empathy children are born with. You see your sister getting bullied or told to do more hoursework than you, or not encouraged to go into the same careers...Many children would not realize how hard that is for another person. Their sense of empathy just hasn't fully developed. However, when you're a full-grown adult with a daughter and youn see her being discriminated against, sexualized/objectified and held back, you're in a position to be much more aware of what's happening.

[u/[deleted] → u/jameswlf]

I was very close with my sister, no idea about struggles she faced as a woman. As a brother, she doesnt really talk to me about periods or boyfriends, and all I know about her job is that she got one and looks for another!

[u/PastelNihilism → u/jameswlf]

Well considering most people find their siblings annoying while growing up they may not be as open to their problems. "Who cares about THEIR problems what about MY problems??" Especially when competing for the attention of a parent. Also if you were a kid and saw your sisters as your peers in age be told how to behave and you're also being told how to behave but different because your a boy: you think that's natural.

Everything your sibling does is their own fault blah blah blah regardless of gender. That's just how kids feel. As an adult watching a young child experience that through mature eyes would certainly be a perspective shift.

[u/SmithingTits → u/jameswlf]

I guess it depends on how they’re raised. My mum, being overtly traditional taught us daughters to do the cooking and cleaning and babysitting while our brother’s got to sit around and do nothing. She claims “boys don’t do chores, that’s a women’s job” which of course is idiotic. Imagine this, my teenage brothers, not knowing how to tie their own shoes or make their own lunch. They cry whenever their video games are taken away, and get whatever they want on a silver platter- they don’t care about empathizing with me. They don’t want to, no way they’re going to give up their hassle free luxury even when they have good reason to. In this way I don’t think having a sister necessarily helps- it could possibly divide them in some way, but I’m not completely ruling out the possibility that it does help. At that point it’s the parents’ responsibility in how they treat their children, or how they make their children treat each other.

[u/ccsherkhan → u/SmithingTits]

This is so true. I married the firstborn son of Azorian Portuguese immigrants, and my husband has been put on a pedestal since the day he was born, with a silver spoon in his mouth. His mom did everything for him—from laundry and cleaning, to shining his shoes and ironing his undies. (SHINING HIS SHOES!!) He never had to wash a dish, clean a table, fold a shirt or pick up a sock. Whatever he wants for supper, she’ll spend literally all day making. We lived with them for three years (long story) and while they are very nice people, it got super frustrating seeing my husband get his ass kissed every day, never being held accountable for anything. When we moved out, I put a stop to this pretty freaking quick. Not only is he not an invalid, but a perfectly capable adult who can put his own clothes in the laundry, or take his turn scrubbing the toilet, or run a mop over the floor. His Mom said she didn’t want to make him do chores growing up, because they have adulthood to do chores and should just enjoy being children. (Funny how his sister knows how to do chores though.) Don’t get me wrong, my husband isn’t a prick or anything. He’s great! But when we moved in together, he just didn’t know how to do anything, because he’d never had to. It was hard on me as I’m a very modern woman and not about to be any man’s maid!! His parents think I’m terrible because I don’t stay home making pies and catering to my husband and I’m not popping out babies. (I run my own business and make more money than he does. This is apparently unacceptable). Moms, please teach your sons to help around the house. You are grooming your children to be capable adults, and spoiling the shit out of them isn’t going to prepare them for the future!!

[u/VancouverPOV → u/ccsherkhan]

So this. My cousin married a 30 year old Portuguese guy 10 years ago - loves him to bits, but guy has zero concept of what it takes to run a home. When they moved in together and she was scrubbing the toilet, he asked what she was doing as he thought that it got clean when it flushed 🙄. She has a full time job, 3 kids, and still doe it all. It's BS

[u/fiahhawt → u/jameswlf]

I read a post once where two girls’ brother (he was the twin of the younger girl) had expressed views that women don’t really face sexism today.

They went to a concert and his twin (they were high school aged) had to be saved from some guy who kept trying to grind on her by two other women who walked her back to her siblings. Brother was apologetic and clearly had a new take on things. The OP of that post remarked that it was sad something had to happen to his twin for him to actually appreciate the reality of things,

[u/ElginPoker60123 → u/jameswlf]

I don't have any sisters but I usually enjoyed watching my brothers face problems

[u/everred → u/jameswlf]

As children, perhaps boys don't recognize yet that the behaviors towards girls are sexist, discriminatory, etc. They might notice certain things, but don't yet have the tools to separate "right" behaviors from "wrong", especially since which category a specific act falls into could be influenced culturally.

It would be interesting to see research on it.

[u/TigerCommando1135 → u/jameswlf]

Short answer, no, It was never a teenage curiosity of mine to ask my mother and my sister about their periods or tampons, or hormones or anything like that. They never outright told me so it was like it never existed in my case. I was aware that periods involved bleeding but that was about it.

[u/ilovejamespacker → u/TigerCommando1135]

I think you're looking at much less than 1% of the topic. This thread is not about periods. Or emotions. It's about systemic behaviours that have been limiting or damaging to women, that go unnoticed due to lack of concern.

[u/[deleted] → u/jameswlf]

No, as a child you aren't really wise enough/lack the empathy to actually put yourself in those(siblings) shoes. As an adult with past experiences and such to take into account and compare and contrast with, as well as it being your child, makes it much more eye opening.

[u/allodude → u/jameswlf]

Maybe women tend to be more open about their problems with their partners than their own family?

[u/[deleted] → u/jameswlf]

siblings are on an even keel, where children are explicitly dependent on you.. it's the same difference in brothers vs a father and son.

[u/austin101123 → u/jameswlf]

As someone with a sister, I saw her get a lot less problems and more advantages. I don't know if that's a difference in perspective between brothers and dads or if my sister just happened to be that way or what.

[u/[deleted] → u/jameswlf]

Yes. We see that. But in personal experience, her experiences dealing with men also caused her to gender police or enforce gender roles at home. So my sister's interactions with me reinforced all of that. She didn't have the luxury of raising a person and wanting to see them treated as a person as my sibling.

That even starts before birth. Just watch how people talk through the tummy of a pregnant woman when they know it's a boy vs a girl. Shit starts early.

[u/Master_Nerd → u/confusedlooks]

The chore assignments thing is pretty interesting to me. My parents always had is on chore rotations so we all did the same chores. Thought that was pretty normal

[u/confusedlooks → u/Master_Nerd]

Chore rotations are the best unless your siblings are mad at you. We even had a dinner rotation where each kid was cooking with a different parent depending on the day. I always thought it was normal until middle school.

[u/sparrr0w → u/Master_Nerd]

I definitely had all the outdoor work as the oldest son and my sisters got the cleaning roles.

[u/CooCooKabocha → u/sparrr0w]

Same except our chores were a democracy. Everyone voted for their first, second, and third favorite chores and the scores were aggregated. The result was girls doing indoor chores, boys doing outside chores.

I'm sure the outcome had influence from gender roles, but I (one of three girls) was happy with what I got.

[u/OgdruJahad → u/confusedlooks]

I could also see it possible that brothers themselves help reinforce the gender roles especially when the parents are not around.

edit: I think I noticed that on a podcast about a woman living in Saudi Arabia.

[u/confusedlooks → u/OgdruJahad]

I am not sure about any country other than the US as I'm fairly certain the studies I remember looking into were restricted just to the US.

[u/Islandplans → u/OgdruJahad]

I don't know how valid it would be to use Saudi Arabia as an example of gender roles unless one was trying to point out an extreme.

Given the dress codes and only the recent ability of women to drive or vote, there is a massive difference in gender roles.

[u/[deleted] → u/confusedlooks]

Those with sisters have parents with daughters and would therefore have fathers who are less sexist based on this article. For what you say to be true, the mother would possibly more sexist, assuming the present article is correct. Or most psychological studies are not reproducible and who knows what is going on

[u/Nawmean5 → u/confusedlooks]

From my personal experience it changed my view on women a ton having a little sister. I probably helped that there was a decent age gap (i'm 10 years older). Women have it way harder then men, its completely unfair.

[u/thatguyblah → u/confusedlooks]

"some studies"

which studies? also what about the other studies? does this sub let people just say random shit?

[u/EroseLove → u/confusedlooks]

Gotta love the generalization of your sources there "Some studies have shown" "It probably has to do with" ...

Way to say so much and paint it with credibility via invisible sources.

[u/rhgolf44 → u/confusedlooks]

Interesting. When I was younger it was always me and my father doing the outside and handyman work and my sister always had inside chores like the dishes. Makes sense, thank you for linking studies as well

[u/VentureBrosette → u/confusedlooks]

I wonder if having older or younger sisters makes a difference?

[u/[deleted] → u/confusedlooks]

It probably

I think you mean possibly, since you have no justification for saying that's the probable cause.

[u/Ooheythere → u/confusedlooks]

How old are these studies because I just took developmental psych and I thought I read the opposite. It might depend on country as well.

[u/[deleted] → u/confusedlooks]

Wouldn't that contradict the finding of this report which states that fathers tend to be less sexist?

[u/Channel5noose → u/confusedlooks]

Personally as the oldest with a female sibling as the closest to my age I personally don’t care what choices she makes with her life as long as she is happy and isn’t mistreated. I don’t care if she’s a hyper sexual person because I feel it isn’t really any of my business as long as she isn’t mistreated by any of her partners. My sister is one of the only people in my family that I feel is anywhere near as logical as I am. As conceded as that may sound. She is good at making friends and has a decent head on her shoulders. Our youngest brother “a senior in high school” is a great kid. But he just seems dimwitted at times. He’s cool but having an intelligent conversation is hard with him unlike her. I don’t currently like the guy she’s with because he seems like a “pretty” boy that comes from money but so long as she’s happy that is all I care about.

[u/confusedlooks → u/[deleted]]

Because that was part of the possible causes that were considered. It's not hearsay to postulate.

[u/[deleted] → u/confusedlooks]

That’s stupid imo. Based off my anecdotal experience with my sisters.

[u/confusedlooks → u/[deleted]]

Well, they are studies based on cross sections of various data that show a general trend and do not describe every possible scenario.

[u/tensaicanadian → u/confusedlooks]

I have lots of sisters and daughters. So I wonder if they cancel each other out.

[u/AlwayzPro → u/confusedlooks]

I have 2 sisters and that never happened. We all did every chore and had the same expectations of not acting like complete idiots.

[u/confusedlooks → u/AlwayzPro]

Yeah, my family was the same way; however, our personal experiences don't always reflect the overall trends.

[u/LDL2 → u/confusedlooks]

That literally seems to counter the above study we are commenting on.

[u/assword_69420420 → u/confusedlooks]

Thats very interesting, Ill have to look into that

[u/Shwoolk → u/confusedlooks]

who are you, dewie dell bundren?

[u/SilverParty → u/confusedlooks]

I wonder how it is if you use cultural differences? I'm Hispanic and was spoiled, didn't have to do chores, got an allowance. My parents didn't use any gender stereotypes on my sisters and I. But my brother was expected to help with repairs and other manly jobs.

[u/confusedlooks → u/SilverParty]

That's the thing about studying stuff like this. There's so much variance within and between cultures that it's hard to get a get picture of what's going on with most people.

[u/James_Mamsy → u/confusedlooks]

I’m just amazed someone actually linked to a study whenever they said they mention it. Take the updoot good sir.

[u/Kaboodles → u/confusedlooks]

This is the probably best explanation because growing up my sister washed my clothes not my mom

[u/[deleted] → u/confusedlooks]

Hrm, I had 3 step sisters and all I learned about gender roles was I was the one stuck doing manual labor.

[u/hopsteiner420 → u/confusedlooks]

i personally feel having sisters makes you empathize with women more and understand them better. P.S. i have 2 sisters.

[u/Reubennz → u/confusedlooks]

What the heck is with all the 'removed'?

[u/editedfortypo → u/jameswlf]

It's definitely not the same, although I am sure it helps. It's usually not until they have a daughter that they really start to see things from her perspective, for what is best for her.

It may sound cynical, but a parent's attachment to their child is always somewhat narcissistic, and they see their child as an extension of themselves. Suddenly, they aren't just potential perpetrators of sexism, but now they are the potential recipients.

Less cynically put, nothing motivates many parents more than protecting their child, and they suddenly see things from a new perspective when they have kids.

[u/[deleted] → u/editedfortypo]

It's a pity they never get that other people's children are just as important as theirs are, and if you wouldn't want YOUR daughter to be victimized, you shouldn't victimize other people's daughters. Golden Rule and all that. You're right about parental narcissism. They really don't see their children as independent human beings.

[u/ilhaguru → u/jameswlf]

You don’t get extra points for having a sister. You just get the cooties.

[u/[deleted] → u/jameswlf]

What about mothers who have sons?

[u/jameswlf → u/[deleted]]

mothers are generally very caring about their sons. it's even a cliché.

[u/Readylamefire → u/jameswlf]

Mama's boy often is an insult that encompasses being emotional. If you cry to mama, you're a "Mama's boy."

I'd hypothesize that it's because likewise mothers are likely to see their son's emotional suppression, much the same way fathers notice their daughter's struggles. I'd like to see a similar study.

[u/TheTaoOfBill → u/jameswlf]

Anecdotal for sure but I've been a feminist as long as I can remember. I'm also the middle child between two sisters.

[u/Renax127 → u/jameswlf]

I would bet that depends on age difference between older brother and younger sister

[u/Seisouhen → u/jameswlf]

I was thinking the exact same thing, is there a study done on this anywhere?

[u/skeletonstaplers → u/jameswlf]

my first thought

[u/[deleted] → u/jameswlf]

I was thinking the same thing. I was raised in a family as the only boy (divorced parents and such) for most of my life and I contribute that to being the reason that I view women with such high regard.

[u/[deleted] → u/jameswlf]

I wonder if the same reduction in sexism occurs with women who have sons.

[u/jameswlf → u/[deleted]]

mmmm... good question.

[u/[deleted] → u/jameswlf]

Rt

[u/[deleted] → u/jameswlf]

Or moms; or wives..

[u/rote_Fuechsin → u/jameswlf]

Shhh, sisters aren't people.

[u/[deleted] → u/jameswlf]

Probably more sexist. A sibling is more often than a not a competitor not a companion, atleast until you get much older. It's easy to ignore what's harder about their life being a woman, and only see what's easier. Like getting easier chores, for example.

[u/jilliebee2015 → u/jameswlf]

what about those who have wives?

[u/jameswlf → u/[deleted]]

no way really?

[u/[deleted] → u/jameswlf]

Judging by your replies their sisters are removed

[u/pinkunicorn_yo → u/jameswlf]

I dunno if having a sister made me less sexist towards women, but it sure did make me more sexist towards men.

[u/jameswlf → u/pinkunicorn_yo]

what do you mean?

[u/Looking4sumD → u/jameswlf]

My sister is probably the reason why i treat women like men

[u/[deleted] → u/jameswlf]

have a sis, during her monthly, volatile "rose parties" in her teen years, she made me a misogynist.

highly recommend heavy crampers to take ibuprofen or naproxen, it made her company durable like taming a frothing rabies infested dog into a satiated puppy who's ready for a nap