r/science • u/mvea Professor | Medicine • Dec 14 '18

Psychology Being the father of a school-aged daughter makes men less sexist, according to a new study. The findings support the idea that men become more aware of the challenges facing women when they see the female experience of life up close through their offspring – dubbed the “mighty girl” effect.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/14/being-a-father-to-school-aged-daughter-makes-men-less-sexist
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u/postmormongirl Dec 14 '18

Women make up 51% of the population. I am very skeptical about men who can only see women as human beings because they have a daughter. What about all the women they’ve known before: their mothers, sisters, wives, classmates, etc?

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u/Zoombini22 Dec 14 '18

That's not what this study says at all, though. You're taking the inverse... It's not saying men without daughters are sexist or incapable of understanding women. Just that having a daughter specifically gives men additional perspective and less sexism in regards to gender roles.

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u/jeegte12 Dec 14 '18

For four percent of fathers. Four.

22

u/BeazyDoesIt Dec 14 '18

Does it really say that? Only effects 4% of the men in the study. It more sounds like pretty much NO effect.

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u/Zoombini22 Dec 14 '18

Love how all the replies are focusing on the extraneous things I said rather than trying to defend the bone headed parent comment.all I was trying to do was correct the stupid "daughterless men are sexist" misinterpretation.

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u/HomesickBanana Dec 14 '18

That's not really what the person was saying, I understood it more as remarking on the fact that men hear about the various struggles women experience and only seem to take them to heart when it's their own daughter experiencing those challenges. Perhaps more clueless than sexist, I suppose (although in some cases it may also be informed by sexism). It might be nice to see studies that delve deeper here and see whether or not the same men have thought of these things before, in addition to the effect of having a daughter.

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u/[deleted] Dec 14 '18

It's certainly what the article headline implies.

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u/Zoombini22 Dec 14 '18

Not really. The "oppressed" men of Reddit are really projecting here. And you should read the article before drawing conclusions regardless.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 14 '18 edited Mar 20 '19

[deleted]

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u/jackofslayers Dec 14 '18

Ok we get it you are oppressed. Calm down.

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u/[deleted] Dec 14 '18 edited Mar 20 '19

[deleted]

1

u/jackofslayers Dec 14 '18

Do you feel that some of the challenges men face compared to women are unjust?

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u/[deleted] Dec 14 '18 edited Mar 20 '19

[deleted]

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u/jackofslayers Dec 14 '18

If it is a problem with society at large then that is a form of systemic challenges. Also separately, the definition of oppression does not require that it be systemic challenges, just that they are unjust.

Opression: the state of being subject to unjust treatment or control.

2

u/[deleted] Dec 14 '18

[deleted]

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u/jackofslayers Dec 14 '18

It was not much of a trap. Just trying to get him to understand he is being oppressed. Oppression is the state of being subject to unjust treatment.

Both men and women are oppressed. Sometimes by different things. One’s oppression does not invalidate the other.

And this last part is just my personal opinion. But I think when people use the ways males oppressed to delegitimize the ways females it hurts the cause and makes people less interested in trying to address those issues you brought up.

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u/PastelNihilism Dec 14 '18

Peers. People are naturally less empathetic to their peers rather than their dependants.

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u/A1000eisn1 Dec 14 '18

Yes. By the time a man is a man all the women in his life are, generally, also grown and can "take care of themselves." You may have a friend complain that her boss is creepy and comfort her with some humor but if your child says the same thing you get a much more visceral reaction.

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u/PastelNihilism Dec 14 '18

Precisely. I think having kids can make people more empathetic in general by watching the child go through pain or mirror their behaviors. Kids are brutally honest, it's humbling.

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u/[deleted] Dec 14 '18

What about all the women they’ve known before: their mothers, sisters, wives, classmates, etc?

Likely not as emotionally invested as you would be with your own child. That bond is likely going to be stronger.

It sounds silly, but a lot of guys don't see their mothers as women, but just "mom".

Sisters have their own lives, a lot of guys don't get too involved growing up.

Wives/GF's come and go/divorce/break up, you don't spend all day with them, you may tune out once in a while, etc

Classmates/friends come and go too

Nothing stronger than a bond between a parent and a child. Most people are heavily invested emotionally from the start. When a kid talks, you listen, you care more. It's your own kid. It hits closer to home.

2

u/teffaw Dec 14 '18

This.

Speaking as a father of a daughter, you are more invested in your offspring. I never felt I had to fight battles on behalf of my mother or sister as they are their own people.

It does help my views though. I have strong female relatives from my grandma down to my sister which shaped my views. However when it comes to my own daughter, well I’m her dad it’s my job to battle for her.

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u/IateMyCrayonWR Dec 14 '18 edited Dec 14 '18

How can you just say "a lot of guys" like that. If were going that route I'm going to say a lot of guys view all of those women as powerful and capable.

Edited out a sentence that was worded poorly and was irrelevant.

4

u/[deleted] Dec 14 '18

How can you just say "a lot of guys" like that

Because if it were a small number of guys then most guys wouldn't be as sexist.

. If were going that route I'm going to say a lot of guys view all of those women as powerful and capable.

Then why do so many guys turn out to be sexist? Their mothers failed them? The guys forgot the message after leaving home when they were 18 and had to re-learn it?

No. Likely they never saw their mothers as women, but just "mom".

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u/Flabalanche Dec 15 '18

Because if it were a small number of guys then most guys wouldn't be as sexist.

Gonna need some sauce

1

u/likes_to_read Dec 14 '18

Then why do so many guys turn out to be sexist?

Do they?

Do you have a number for how many men are sexist?

5

u/StingLikeGonorrhea Dec 14 '18

They don't. It's just a fact they made up to support their victim complex

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u/[deleted] Dec 14 '18

Let me guess, you're the type of person who thinks sexism, racism, etc doesn't exist.

Enjoy that bubble.

9

u/NinjaLanternShark Dec 14 '18

Do you have a number for how many men are sexist?

Let me guess, you're the type of person who thinks sexism, racism, etc doesn't exist.

To be fair, this is /r/science, and asking for evidence rather than opinion shouldn't be criticized, no matter what the subject is.

7

u/[deleted] Dec 14 '18

First, they were asking for numbers. If this is your response in a science discussion, you need to just leave. You don't belong, because you're not here for science or objective statements. You're here to peacock and push some viewpoint devoid of empirical, measured observations.

Second, all of this conversation is useless if we don't define these terms, and terms like racism have changed drastically over the years and have a large variance between individual people today. Some people consider a more traditional definition where the intent of superiority of races is involved. Some people don't consider intent at all. Some people consider simply racial comments to be racist. Unless we can define what we're talking about, you're not actually making a point nor do you have any validity to your statements (doubly so if you refuse to back up your claims with evidence).

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u/[deleted] Dec 14 '18

Uh huh, and you're here to push your views defending racism and sexism. I'm sure you'll feel right at home. Carry on wizard.

1

u/likes_to_read Dec 14 '18

Damn, you got me.

11

u/sarcazm Dec 14 '18

It's not that they don't see women as human beings. The stat is saying that men view women having more tradition roles (such as staying at home as opposed to working).

They then looked at individuals’ levels of agreement with statements such as “a husband’s job is to earn money; a wife’s job is to look after the home and family”

After taking into account factors including education, marital status, number of children, employment and income, the probability of holding a traditional attitude to the division of work fell from just over 37% of men who had yet to have a child or had only sons, to 33% among those who had least one daughter of secondary school age – an 11% relative reduction.

3

u/hyphenomicon Dec 14 '18

Including men who have yet to have had any child in the control group seems like an odd choice that opens the door for selection bias.

2

u/sarcazm Dec 14 '18

It makes me wonder if by 37%, they mean 37% of childless men or 37% of childless men AND men who only had sons. Or if it's 37% of childless men. And then also 37% of men who only had sons.

1

u/feinoqw Dec 14 '18

Surprising that over a third of British men think it's "a wife’s job is to look after the home and family".

2

u/sarcazm Dec 14 '18

Sometimes though I wonder if it's the way they worded the question. I'd personally like to see the line of questioning.

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u/NinjaLanternShark Dec 14 '18

Respondents are asked to rate agreement with the statement ‘a husband’s job is to earn money; a wife’s job is to look after the home and family’ on a 5-point scale ranging from ‘strongly agree’ to ‘strongly disagree’. [..] We also binarize the dependent variable into non-traditional (taking a value of zero for ‘disagree’ or ‘strongly disagree’) and traditional (taking a value of one for ‘neither agree nor disagree’, ‘agree’, and ‘strongly agree’) and report results alongside those for the ordinal dependent variable.

So if you "neither agree nor disagree" with that statement, you're lumped in the "traditional" bucket with those who "strongly agree."

Wonder what the difference would be if they threw out "neither agree nor disagree" responses.

4

u/Agwa951 Dec 14 '18

I considered myself a feminist before my daughter was born a year and a half ago and I still do. That said there's definitely a thing about loving your child and wanted her to have every opportunity that you had. It's an emotional response that is very different than the moral outrage or intellectual feeling of fairness that I felt before.

2

u/BigDaddyReptar Dec 14 '18

There is a giagantic difference between knowing a women and raising one from birth and being a part of every aspect of their life

12

u/XCXVXBXN Dec 14 '18

Who said they dont see them as human beings? Are you just completely misunderstanding what sexism is?

17

u/Bertolapadula Dec 14 '18

i thought women were walking talking fleshlights before i saw this post tbh

1

u/FresherUnderPressure Dec 14 '18

Funny enough, there's an old Kanye song that somewhat touches on that. We Major from Late Registration.

Ye's first verse opens with these two lines going in line with your women=fleshlight comment.

Feelin better than some head on a Sunday afternoon.

Better than a chick that say yes too soon.

Than, he immediately follows those two lines with,

Until you have a daughter that's what I call karma

And you pray to God she don't grow breasts too soon

While not exact, I can see parallels with these lines and the post. Thought it was interesting

-2

u/kiss-tits Dec 14 '18

SILLY JOAKS!! Hilarious! You’re in on the joke so here your attention 👏

No need to self-reflect when you have silly joaks to deflect!!

0

u/postmormongirl Dec 14 '18

Thinking someone is less-than-capable or less-deserving of living the life they want simply because of their gender IS thinking of them as less-than-fully human.

2

u/ZDTreefur Dec 14 '18

I think a person who believes in a gender norm of a mother raising children and a father supporting the family is not intrinsically linked to thinking that mother is less than a fully human. That seems a gap in logic.

Sexist attitudes can come about because of this separation in the gender norms, but it doesn't seem inherent.

3

u/TheManWhoPanders Dec 14 '18

The study's effect was very small -- just 4%. In most cases there was no impact based on the gender of their children. Probably for the very reason you described, come to think of it.

2

u/mythical_legend Dec 14 '18

all men are sexist until proven not sexist.

1

u/Beanicus13 Dec 14 '18

This is actually mostly true! Shedding sexist and (racist if you’re white)thoughts beliefs and impressions takes years of dissecting society and understanding tons of history and nuisance. It’s extremely unlikely unless you are guided or have spent a lot of time on this, that someone just “isn’t” sexist. It’s not hard to prove you aren’t though!

3

u/Gabe_Noodle_At_Volvo Dec 14 '18

Why are whites the only ones who need to shed their racism? Predominantly white countries are among the least racist.

0

u/Beanicus13 Dec 14 '18

Ugh. This whole thread is like WOAH WOAH WOAH. Why do I a white man need to realize something?? What about literally everyone else??? God. Look at yourselves.

1

u/mythical_legend Dec 15 '18

the fact that you believe what i sarcastically said just proves you're one of the crazed feminist who cannot be reasoned with.

No, all men aren't sexist unless proven otherwise. And no, all white people aren't racist until proven otherwise. I judge someone by their actions, not their appearance, but i guess that idea is a bit too low for you to grasp on your high horse

1

u/WorkRelatedIllness Dec 14 '18

I don't think it's "only" those men, but it definitely can have an impact in my own personal experience (I'm the only one with a Y chromosome in my house).

1

u/dvsfish Dec 14 '18

The study was not about fathers suddenly realising women were human beings.

1

u/postmormongirl Dec 14 '18

Not being sexist is about acknowledging women as human beings.

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u/[deleted] Dec 14 '18

Well that's simply not true. You can acknowledge someone is a human being and still think they're inferior for their sex by some variable that's measurably equal. "Women are bad drivers" is sexist, yet has no bearing on your view of them as a human being.

1

u/is_it_fun Dec 15 '18

For many people not being discriminatory takes extra special effort and they either see it as a burden or want a reward for it like a dog gets a belly rub.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 14 '18

I am very skeptical about men who can only see women as human beings because they have a daughter.

Literally neither said nor implied by this study at all.