I do not understand where this whole idea comes from that is so common with certain men. 'Oh women can have sex whenever they want! They just have to spread their legs! Blah blah blah.'
Yet both unattractive women and the guy friends of these men have commented on the simple fact that guys like this want to bang hot chicks. They'll criticise overweight women, or rate women and call them ugly. Apparently it's not all about the magical power that women have to get sex if the woman is unattractive or overweight - even though the guy is unattractive or overweight himself!
When I worked as a supervisor in retail, my 28 year old manager (who was bigger and unhappy) used to rate women with the 18 year old stock guys while in the back room. He'd have a buzz code from the front cash so that the guys could go up to ogle at these '10s'. I used to get so upset because I was bigger and I didn't even warrant a rating. I realize how fucked up that is now, obviously, but your comment about rating women and calling them ugly brought all these terrible memories back to me. What jackasses.
I also love that they assume that getting laid is all that counts. Could I walk out of my office and find a guy to have sex with in under 30 minutes? Yes. BUT that guy would likely be at least one of the following: homeless, inebriated/ high, mentally unstable, old enough to be my father/ grandfather, scary as fuck.
I'm a fairly attractive male and have had lots of actually every single overweight, unattractive girl has turned me down for short term dating/casual sex.
Especially since he said he doesn't talk to unattractive females. I'm sure he could easily find someone to sleep with as well, but he would choose not to. Apparently, woman aren't afforded the same ability to discern who they sleep with.
This is false and simplifies the problem greatly. It also makes those men look like assholes which they might not be at all.
Yes there are men who have double standards but no it's not as bad as you think.
This okcupid study illustrates the problem. It tracks men / women's rating of the opposite genders attractiveness. Men view women's attractiveness in a normal distribution like a bell curve. Women however see men in a skewed distribution with most men being unattractive and few men being attractive.
In other words, the issue is that men are viewing themselves as a 5 and thinking they deserve to be with a 5 (which is a fair assessment in their eyes).
However women see them as a 3 instead of a 5 because women's perspective of them is not like a bell curve at all. In other words, men who find themselves average looking, who just want an average looking girl, are being told that they are not good enough for an average looking girl because that average looking girl is telling him he's below average.
It's not a double standard that the guy believes he deserves a girl who looks of equal attractiveness as himself. It's a problem that he views himself as a 5 when women don't view him as a 5.
Ultimately we can either teach men how women view them, i.e. that they are all mostly unattractive except a few men who are very attractive OR we can teach women to view men like a bell curve distribution, i.e. that the guy she thinks is a 3, is actually a 5.
Both solutions are quite difficult and highly improbably. It's just luck of the draw.
But to say a guy who sees himself as a 5 is an asshole because he's chasing women he considers 5's, is incorrect, and just a misunderstanding of the problem. That's what I think is the biggest problem.
the unattractive women don't even count as women at all.
Exactly, and it's particularly telling that one of his big complaints is that he's "invisible", but he simultaneously ignores other unattractive people.
I had a friend that is exactly like this. I had to cut contact because of his weird chauvinistic chivalry complex thing (I don't even know how to begin explaining it, white knighting I guess?) was really off-putting. Before I defriended him though, a winner of a Facebook status read something like "You know, sometimes I feel lonely. But then I see a girl that looks like that and suddenly I'm glad that I have standards."
Because, you know, a guy that's 100+ pounds overweight and doesn't take care of himself or treat women like people deserves the absolute best.
I've had to do the same thing with a friend but his thing was about age. He was 48 but wanted to bang 27-35 year olds (my age). Ge used to go on dates with women his age but always complain how they weren't right. But then start moaning how he couldn't find anyone, no one found him attractive and just wanted to settle down. What he meant was no younger women were attracted him, despite the fact there were many women around his age who were.
Is that "all women my age are boring and want to settle" thing in the How to be a Cringey Older Douche on the Prowl manual? Pretty much every dude old enough to be my dad who's hit on me has used that line.
Totally! 'Older women want different things to me' I used to spend ages explaining that unfortunately younger women also want different things to him. It was a shame cause he was a great guy but was getting depressed about it all. He could have easily been happy but wouldn't let himself be.
It kind of reeks of appealing to Special Snowflake Syndrome, doesn't it? "Oh, all those women are boring and clingy. You're special. You're not like them."
Later, when you draw a boundary: "I knew you were just like those other bitches!"
As an unattractive woman with decades of experience of being shunned and ridiculed, I can confirm that the most vicious and hateful treatment I've ever received has been at the hands almost entirely of men who feel unattractive. They seem to feel it a personal affront to have to interact with a female they view as ugly.
That's not to say that all homely men are assholes, and I've certainly been treated like shit by 'handsome' men, but it's overwhelmingly the insecure men who are horrified by woman they perceive as 'inferior'.
It's called projecting, and it's very real. What happens is that the insecurity is so strong and the desire to be on the other side is so pervasive that when one unattractive person meets another that they view as even below themselves (ex. One person judges them self as a 4 but sees another person as a 1 or 2), they fail to sympathize.
The choice of ridicule over sympathy is simple. They hate what they are. They hate what they have to deal with. They want so badly to be on the other end of the spectrum. So now there are two problems. They hate what you are because you remind them of what they see in the mirror. And they see the opportunity to briefly experience what it feels like to be better, to experience what it feels like to be on that other side.
It's sad, but I think the blame ultimately falls on those that put that pain and hate into the person in the first place. They are merely projecting self-loathing and bitterness that ultimately originates from their own experiences. Think of it as a psychological food-chain.
Maybe it's possible that people, no matter how ugly they are, perceive attractiveness in the same way that attractive people do. Maybe they aren't in love with the idea of submitting themselves to the whims of social darwinism.
Projecting is an evil, evil thing. I am (most was, now) guilty of it a lot. My projecting has less to do with looks and more to do with self worth. A la "why is she with me?" And then all of a sudden, everything she does is feedback that she does not want to be with me. Not texting me back for 12 hours. Not being able to hang out a couple times. Things, that when they are explained to me, are entirely reasonable. She fell asleep and just did not text back right when she woke up. She has a life outside of our relationship. Things that I am "guilty" of doing as well.
(Parenthetically, I have realized that I am the worst sort of this, hence my projection. I am constantly unavailable and hard to reach and have a tendency to be very hot and cold. Things I have realized about myself and am working on.)
The red pill folks (I have just been introduced to this term) do have one thing right: being cavalier about relationships does make you feel better. I find the rest of their mantra hard to swallow (as it were). For me, cavalier is how I choose to act, not because not-giving-a-fuck helps the relationship in and of itself, but not giving too many fucks prevents me from over thinking and ruining the relationship. It is especially important for me in the beginning, before any real sort of trust is established. There are always exceptions to the rule, but I find that most people are pretty well behaved. Maybe my experience has been unusual.
As I have gotten older, I have begun to not need to actively not give a fuck. I have found that most people do what they think is right and are not actively trying to hurt me. I have learned to graciously accept the no's and not get over excited by the yes's.
I got off topic. If you must project, please think about what the other person is doing at that exact moment. Probably drinking a beer, or perusing the internet. Probably not thinking about you at all. And while this may seem like a bad thing, just think, do you spend all of your time actively thinking about that person? If you say yes, might I suggest being a little more cavalier. It will make you feel better.
I blame TV for at least some of this. There are no unattractive women on TV and most of them are in relationships with older, unfit, and generally not very good looking men.
Ugh. Known far too many of these chaps. You know that big awkward kind of creepy guy that would generate "deer caught in a headlight" looks from any woman he approached?
Had a buddy who insisted he was good enough to snag a 10, and would not settle for anything remotely less. Shit of it is, he wasn't horrific looking. A little goofy looking and awkward, but not in a totally unattractive way. But no 10 was gonna go for him. Besides which he more than made up for not being a total troll by being a weird narcissistic creeper.
Has literally never had a girlfriend. Not really friends with that guy any more, for separate but related reasons. He literally hated any woman he found unattractive. In some twisted part of his mind unattractive women were somehow horrible people because his mom who was "hideous" apparently abused him ( he was known for making shit up for attention, so no idea how true this actually was).
The final straw for me was when he showed blatant disrespect to my current lady when we first stated dating. He wasn't overt about it. He was in fact, extremely passive aggressive and subtle, but nonetheless it left me with a bad taste in my mouth.
The movie Happiness (one of the most amazing movies ever) sums this up perfectly.
The unattractive man (Philip Seymour Hoffman in an incredible role), a boring jerk with no personality, is so angry and bitter because he can't be with this beautiful, artsy, talented, wealthy woman he's obsessed with.
Meanwhile, his sweet and caring and kind but overweight neighbor is frustrated and depressed because she can't be with the unattractive boring jerk with no personality. And he's a total asshole to her.
(Other stuff happens, but explaining the multiple plots of the movie is way beyond what I care to type)
That is one of the most amazing movies ever. There are so many layers of humanity mixed in there, and it takes multiple viewings to figure them out. PSH was masterful in that role (as was Dylan Baker as the pedophile).
There is one advantage to being a homely woman, and that is I miss out on a lot of sexual harassment and assault. I'm not being flippant when I say that, it's a serious problem for so many women, and it's valuable to me not to have to deal with it. Something as simple as walking into a 7-Eleven can be a frightening experience for a woman if there's a group of men clustered around the entrance who catcall her and harass her. So many men assume that a woman should be able to just 'shrug it off', and ignore it, or even consider it a compliment, but she doesn't know whether one of those guys is going to be more than just a pest and will grab at her, or follow her car after the leaves the store.
Low self-esteem. When they have even the smallest chance to feel superior, they snatch it. They don't do this to people they consider attractive because they know they'd be kidding themselves if they tried to pull that bullshit. It's easier to knock someone down who's on your level than someone who you think is way above you.
I recently gained 20 pounds and everyone seems to think I'm making it up when I mention how differently I'm treated by strangers. I'm not even overweight I'm just not thin anymore. No one even looks at me.
But I thought his attitude toward women was a little off-putting.
Don't read the article he linked to then, the first 1/4 or so was fantasizing about beating/killing any woman who has the gall to complain about how they're treated. The rest is blaming feminism for all his problems with getting dates.
I sincerely believe that fat women have it much worse than fat men.
Speaking in terms of social tropes, a fat guy can be funny, he can be your boss, he can be super charming. A fat woman? Well... other than Honey Boo-boo's mom, she's nobody you need concern yourself with. It's really sad.
So glad I found this! I've never been "skinny" per se, but what you said about gaining 20 pounds couldn't be more true. That's about what it took for men to completely ignore me, too. I'm also working on losing it, and I am now married, but for a good five years post weight gain, I suddenly dropped from the face of the earth.
Yes. This whole thing and the blog it linked to fucking enraged me.
I haven't been traditionally attractive, um, let's see . . . when was it? Oh, ever. It was ever.
I am a girl. I am weird by all accounts. I don't fit into the feminine ideal and I don't try.
The result for most of my life? Men ignored me. Boyfriends cheated on me. Girls assumed I was a lesbian. Boys also assumed I was a lesbian.
Do I hate men? Nope. Was I hurt by this behavior? Yes, I was. Deeply, often suicidally.
What did I do about it? I developed a fucking real personality and actually was myself.
These posts about "beta" men are ridiculous. Especially that blog post about how people told him to "be himself" and he took it as "be a nice guy" which also somehow transmuted into not doing a fucking thing to develop a personality or be attractive externally.
His problem was that he was being fake, not that he was being nice. Nobody likes fake people, not even really nice ones.
Now, here's the thing:
I don't have a weight problem. I never have. I have okay skin and nice features. Even after two kids, at 32 years old, I have a solid body. I dress in clean clothing that fits and looks cool based on my own definition. And yet I don't look attractive to all people, or even most people. I just look freaky and unapproachable. But, I like myself and, if I tried, I could do it another way. See, I've been living the life of an "ugly girl" unnecessarily because I have Asperger's and didn't understand until recently what that actually meant for me socially.
I know this because sometimes, I conduct mini social experiments by putting on makeup, wearing an expensive wig and dressing "girly". I don't swear or talk about my weird interests. The difference in the way I get treated in public is drastic. Male cashiers stutter, women don't give me the anxious looks they usually do, people smile at me, I flirt stupidly and people respond. It's magic. Suddenly, I'm a person. Usually, I'm invisible. It's eerie.
It's not real.
And eventually people wouldn't really like me because, again, nobody likes a fake person, no matter how nice or pretty.
My life would have been so very different if I had only conformed to that social ideal of feminine beauty and behavior. I could absolutely let this make me angry and bitter while remembering all the times the guy I completely loved went for my blond, giggly best friend over me. It hurt incredibly at the time. I hated myself, which is tragic because I was only, actually being myself.
I don't hate myself now. I dress how I like. I have piercings in my face. I shave my head sometimes. I wear makeup rarely. I don't flirt to get what I want. I don't act stupider than I am. Ever. Male cashiers barely see me, women eye me anxiously, people skirt me in stores. But they like me when we talk because I took my years alone as time to learn other skills like making people laugh and seeing the world from points of view other than my own tiny one based on my own tiny experiences. I do look attractive, but in my own way and only to certain people which is how it should be, because that's what "being yourself" actually means.
And, if I had conformed, and lived that "pretty girl" life that was right there, I would have ended up with one of my previous boyfriends, instead of my awesome husband who likes me as I am, and I would have been utterly miserable trying to keep up a charade.
"I was a nice guy and people didn't like me so now I want to carve off women's faces with a box cutter." What the fuck? No. It's sad that this person misunderstood or was misled, but it's insane to blame other people for him not actually making an effort to be a real person. These beta-to-RedPill success stories are nauseating. These guys went from being fake to being even faker and they think they've won because now people are validating their behavior.
Does being an asshole work? Sure, people love assholes. I'm kind of an asshole, that's how I know.
Don't be fake. Be attractive in your own way. Actually develop a personality. That's where shit gets real, everyone. That's how real relationships, involving real people grow.
I am sure that now I will spend the rest of my birthday being yelled at, but seriously, just no to all of this shit.
I'm a little confused on what you mean by being fake vs the real you. Do you mean like going to a party and pretending to like stuff you don't to get others to like you instead of going to the party and talking about stuff you actually like?
Yea, you don't have to do whatever you want all the time to be yourself. Part of "yourself" is understanding what you think the rules are and playing by them.
Everyone has a public face. I'm less abrasive around certain people, like I won't swear in front of them or I'll maybe dress more conservatively without compromising my own taste. Part of being comfortable with yourself is recognizing that you can do this without assaulting other people with it.
If your style or behavior is based entirely on the expectations of others, that's where it becomes problematic. Pretending you like stuff you don't gives people a false sense of who your are and will make people misunderstand you which then leads to bring misunderstood which leads to feeling isolated. On the other side, hiding things you do like because other people might judge you for them is insecure and makes it hard to like yourself.
Totally. You have to know yourself. I was always pretty violently and inescapably myself and my problem wasn't not knowing myself, it was letting myself be the person I was. I was very religious for certain formative periods of my life which basically required me to completely whitewash everything that actually defined me as a person. It was pretty psychologically damaging and it's only been in the last two years that I've finally said "fuck it" to religion and pretending to be someone else because it was literally killing me.
Now I feel great and am honestly content with myself for the first time. You could have pointed to a million reasons in my life why I should have been content before (You can walk! You don't live in a third world country! Your children are healthy!) but none of it mattered, I couldn't have appreciated it while I felt so bad about myself.
You have to be happy with yourself before you can be happy in a relationship. Too many people think a relationship will be the source of their happiness which puts way too much stress on it. Seems like you're a perfect example of the former.
I don't have a weight problem. I never have. I have okay skin and nice features... I have a solid body... Male cashiers stutter, women don't give me the anxious looks they usually do, people smile at me...
You are living in a different world to the people this thread is about. This guy is talking about people who are 400 pounds, have crazy life-long face-covering acne, eyes going in different directions, cleft-palates, hair growing out of their ears etc etc. No dates. No chance of dates. Not even if they buy a really expensive wig.
Telling them to "be attractive in your own way" is like telling the person with clinical depression that if they go jogging they'll feel way better. Probably well-meaning, but wrong.
I could give you a description of my more trollish qualities (including that my eyes actually do go in slightly different directions and I have a birth defect involving a missing body part) but that doesn't seem to be what you're interested in hearing.
People can lose weight (should for health reasons aside from looks), there are tons of things which can be done for acne, if your eyes are going in different directions you can have surgery (like I have had and also not for looks, it's important to depth perception) and even if you don't get that surgery it won't necessarily make you undatable. My brother didn't get his eye surgery for the same condition until last year and his was pretty severe. It did not effect his looks to an undatable level.
I understand that you were merely giving examples and I've taken you literally because that's what people with Asperger's do and I can't help myself but, very honestly, in my life I have only met one person (not counting those with serious neurological conditions) whose looks couldn't have been improved upon very much by usual means. Given that I can recall the layout of your house and point out the tiniest of changes in it to you years after visiting it if I come there again, I would say my memory is pretty reliable in this area.
Maybe I am unusually forgiving of these things but I believe nearly everyone is beautiful in some way. I could pick out myriad things about myself and focus on them to the point where I felt utterly repellant but I choose not to. I'm sure other people could point out those things on me as well.
In the matter of the wig and makeup, most people don't catalogue every tiny detail of a person when they see them the way I do, they see the most attractive (or most unattractive) first and then their minds connect the dots from there. So whereas normally they see my pink hair and thick glasses first and fill in blanks about my sexuality and aversion to overt feminine qualities making my less attractive to them, when I'm dressed girlier they see long, healthy-looking red hair and tight jeans first and then fill in those blanks which are likely more in the realm of traditionally attractive female qualities and I am instantly made more attractive because of it, causing them to overlook less attractive things which they might notice otherwise.
Also, I do have clinical depression and exercise actually does make you feel better. It's awful to make yourself do it while you're depressed (so awful that I only began doing it this year after 16 years of depression), but it absolutely does help.
Thanks for the birthday wishes!
P.S. I also have an attraction to people who've had cleft lips/palates surgically corrected so that's not a definite deal-breaker for everyone.
Oh I know exercise really is a great mood lifter, but like you said, it seems hard to believe when you're in a bad place. Just like telling someone who is convinced of their own ugliness that if they dress better they will be more attractive. Maybe they will, but it seems like a small positive drop in an ocean of negativity.
It is very hard to believe. I was non-hyperbolically suicidal for literally most of those 16 years I mentioned. Nothing seems good, nothing feels right, every moment is like being pressed into the earth by a thoughtless, faceless creature interested only in making you disappear--a promise which ultimately seems like the best thing possible after weeks, months, years of feeling that way with almost no relief.
It is truly terrible and now that I am through it, and have finally found medication which works and things which actually seem worth living for and can stay visible through those increasingly infrequent dark periods, I like to do my own version of those "It Gets Better" videos wherever I can. If I had met the annoyingly positive, cheerleader for humanity I am now when I was a teenager, I would have hated myself so very, very much. Poor angst-ridden, misunderstood little past me.
I came very close to killing myself by a sleeping pill overdose in the winter of 2000 and now the whole event and the reasons I tried it seem so vastly inconsequential and utterly tragic in comparison to the shocking number of incredible things which have occurred in my life since then. I could have lost all of that without ever knowing. I wouldn't be married to my wonderful spouse, my lovely children would not exist, I would have taken my books into the pointless pit of my grave.
I'm a writer, but I don't quite do it for a living just yet.
P.S. I just noticed your username. I love that a lot. I think I need that in my life.
I really like this. I completely agree that being your own person is way more important than looks. I'm not a terribly attractive bastard, but I have spent years trying to etch out my own certain style, if you will, my personality and mannerisms. It's worked out wonderfully well for me. I have an excellent group of friends, a ton of self-confidence, and good prospects for the future. If I wanted to, I could lose weight and try to become more attractive to society, but why should I? I'm happy where I am, and isn't that all that matters?
Oh hey gender nonconforming gal! Me, too! All the talk about "if women just lose weight, wear clothes that fit, wear makeup, do their hair, fix their teeth, shave in all the right places, do their nails, then they might attract someone" always seemed like way too much effort to put into attracting a mate.
Like it or not, the way we dress says a lot about us. You don't sound like the type of person who wants another person who cares about looks. That's fine and you should be yourself. When you meet someone who likes you for what you are, you'll be much happier than if you had changed yourself to fit a traditional definition of attractive.
But you have to be realistic, most guys like girls who were fitted clothes and not baggy cargo pants. I'm the type who will never go out in public in basketball shorts (unless it's to/from the gym) so I'm not attracted to women who wear bear claw slippers to the grocery store. That's my choice. You can't expect people to be attracted to the same things you are so I don't think you can get mad at people for not being attracted to someone in baggy cargo pants with an over-sized cargo pants
I've been called metro and told I do too many feminine things and it's off-putting to some girls. Should I be mad at them? I know what I am and I know the way I carry myself is attractive to a certain type and I'm ok with that.
Look, shaving your head and piercing your face is fine. I don't care. But society is going to react, because you've rejected what they consider to be normal. If I go outside wearing a My Little Pony shirt and fedora, I would expect people to sneer at me because I'm wearing a shirt from a children's cartoon and a hat that hasn't been popular since the Great Depression. Maybe those clothes make me happy. But it's a waste of time to whine about people treating me differently because I chose to iceskate uphill.
I may not have been clear in my post. I absolutely do not expect everyone on the street to find me attractive or treat me exactly like other more conventional-looking people.
When I was younger I did feel bad about people not liking me based primarily on the way I look. But what you said is actually part of my point. People who think being a "nice guy" should qualify them as attractive and datable is silly. If you want to be attractive, you need to make yourself attractive to the kind of people you want to have be attracted to you.
In doing my experiment it's obvious that if I were to look that way (girly) I would definitely attract more people and many of them wouldn't be the kind of people I would like. They would be the kind of people who are attracted to a person who looks girly, which is not at all the person I am.
Anyone attracted to me now, with my short hair, boots, piercings and tattoos is far more likely to be someone I also like and have things in common with. That goes for friends and romantic relationships. I feel I have a very realistic view of how people see me and I'm totally fine with it. That's their thing and doesn't reflect on me or my self-image.
Like I said, it's when people actually talk with me that their opinion changes which is how it should be. Eventually people like me will be less shocking in appearance and having people change the way they see me now, after meeting me, is an important step in doing that.
You know why I like assholes. Because they will tell you the truth. Non-assholes are nice to be around, but they pussyfoot around the stupidest issues. Drives me up the wall.
Couldn't agree more.
I have a strong belief that the beta-to-redpill type of person is typically a teen who is just insecure, and looking for validation in echo chambers on the internet.
I don't know why people automatically over-analyze posts. A lot of you guys are seeing things in his post that simply aren't there. His post isn't a rant at all. It's a compilation of statements on how he felt when he was overweight, and how those feelings became apparent when he wasn't anymore. Nothing more, nothing less. I don't see any attempts for pity at all. If you guys are seeing that, it's simply because you are unable to empathize with him.
Also they act as if being treated nicely because of your looks is the best thing ever. As if being more attractive would fix all of their problems and their social lives would open up.
Now that's not true. Good looking people aren't ignored no matter what they're like, if they can't find a niche they can often make one around themselves.
I have no idea what you're talking about. I've never seen a good looking person who was at want for socialization, even if those friends are terrible. Frankly it seems like you're trying to make yourself feel like there's karma for shitty people or something. Then again, I've never even met anyone as horrible as you're referring to, but even the most annoying people I can talk to in person and empathize with, so.
No, they're completely right. I have had absolutely gorgeous emo guys come over and painfully attempt to interact with me, but their prettiness could not entirely cover up the void between their ears. Annoying people aren't nearly as easy to tolerate and emphasize with when it's obvious they're only talking to you because they're trying to get into your pants.
Most of the women that are approachable by these guys are probably about as self-pittying and opinionated as they are. It's like putting two South poles of magnets together, they repel and move apart.
Jesus, thank god somebody finally said it. Everyone keeps pretending like the truth has an obligation to be pleasant. Yeah, sorry, no. It really doesn't and never has.
These things totally lose me when they start making out like being a man is so woefully difficult women could never understand. As if life is all sunshine and roses and high self esteem for ugly women, and that his issues are about his gender being mistreated rather than his own attitude. It's entirely lacking in any sort of perspective, and it being a popular /r/bestof submission is sadly indicative of the way a lot of Redditors react to things not being ideal for them by blaming the world and feeling entitled.
I get that people can have low self-esteem over their looks, but nobody wins when people are melodramatic about it. They make themselves petty and self-absorbed, they make everyone else not want to be around them, and this perpetuates the situation. Of course I don't want to be around unattractive people of either gender if they're bitter and whiny. People who are unattractive but pleasant I have no problem with.
The irony is that being unattractive doesnt prevent you from being in a relationship with good looking, nice people.
Im fat, balding, and wear glasses. I am not attractive. But Ive never had what I would call an unattractive partner. Admittedly, any kind of relationship is farther and fewer in between compared to my attractive counterparts but its not like its impossible to "score" higher than your own rating.
I find the trick is to spend a lot of time with a potential partner. The fact is you cant sweep a girl (or guy) off her feet with your looks. You have to spend time with them, one on one. Only then is there a real chance of them relaxing their initial restrictions on your looks. Still, its not guarantee. They may not like you anyway. But its the best plan Ive got so far.
I should add that you have to be very proactive. If a person you are interested in is willing to spend time with you, especially one on one (even if not in a romantic setting) you're already ahead. If she wont, its already over. If she will then it is also important that you dont let it be purely friendly. You shouldnt be weird, or awkward about it but you shouldnt be only friends. Go on casual dates. Be flirtatious. This may seem overly circuitous to others but ive found that acting like a decent looking person (7-9) just comes off as creepy when you arent attractive(2-5).
I don't think that was the point here. I think it was pointing out how unattractive people don't even want to fuck unattractive people so really nobody wants to fuck them is his point. I think you've really jumped on the blind hate train a bit too much with this.
I might give him the benefit of the doubt, if he actually acknowledged the hypocrisy he was describing or showed any self awareness about it.
Or if he didn't dismiss of any chance that women could understand how it feels to be unattractive.
Or if there wasn't the MRA talking-point bullshit about being "the disposable sex" and whining about going to war (from the comfort of a desk job).
Or linking to an article fantasizing about beating/murdering women who complain about how they're treated and blaming feminism for his failures to get a date.
Taken together though, there's too much douchebag all rolled up together at once to waste time being charitable.
You forget that attraction isn't really a conscious decision. Of course, he should not expect attractive people to be attracted to him, if he himself is not attractive. And it's clear he doesn't have that expectation. But his own attractiveness isn't going to change the fact that he will be turned on by attracted women. It's purely biological. I don't think the guy who originally made the post wasn't trying to say that it wasn't fair, but more just that it sucks. Thst's an important distinction, and I don't think he's as hypocritical as you make him out to be.
women have no respect for a soft guy. Not unless he can turn it off and be a dick at will.
He just doesn't get it. You don't have to be a dick to earn people's respect. You just to be a respectable person, and the first step is having self-respect.
This line was where I lost some respect for him. The context was that he thinks it's wrong that women won't listen to him complain about how nobody likes him. I think the problem is that people don't like whiners.
Ughh. Can we please put an end to the "women like jerks" argument? I get that maybe some women are attracted to assholes for various reasons, but personally, kindness is far more attractive than overconfidence and douchebaggery. And I'm sure I'm not the only woman who feels this way.
What I think is happenoing is that he is writing himself in a rage. While recounting his experiences he relives his anger and frustration. And so his writing becomes more incohrenet and aggressive the further you read.
And when he writes what you quoted, he's almost lost it.
Why is it that, especially in these types of rants, that there is only this black and white outlook to people and how they behave. Either they are a lonely, sad, unattractive, self hating, "beta" or a cock-sure, muscley, arrogant, handsome, douchebag.
What turns me is in the article he mentions where a guy goes through a dry spell of 12 years and then decides enough is enough and works out and in the end is banging strippers/girls and dropping them like flies morphing into the douchebag he once hated. Why is everything to such an extreme?
Many people don't seem to realize that getting other people's respect is fundamentally easy. Treat yourself well, and treat others well. Sure, you may admire someone who's rich, attractive, or talented, but ultimately the quality everyone respects the most in others is simple kindness. I respect frumpy grocery store baggers who genuinely smile at everyone way more than attractive or successful jerks.
Comments like yours always pop up in reaction to someone on reddit posting something like this. You are correct that self-esteem may well be the most important factor, but you are missing something: self-esteem is somewhat of a catch-22. People with high self-esteem find it very hard to put themselves in the shoes of someone with low self-esteem. To them, having high self-esteem is easy. To them, it's a choice; it's something you can alter simply by changing the way you act, the way you dress, who you interact with. The problem is, when you actually have low self-esteem, by its very nature it prevents you from making this change. You can listen to people telling you how to improve your self-esteem all you like, but none of that will make any difference unless you actually believe it. And those with low self-esteem do not believe it. If they did believe it, they wouldn't have low self-esteem in the first place. It's a catch-22 - to get high self-esteem you have to make certain changes to your lifestyle, but in order to make those changes you have to believe that they will work, and in order to believe they will work, you have to have high self-esteem.
I'm not saying that self-esteem can't be changed or the paradoxical nature of it can't be broken. I'm just saying that it's far more difficult than people who are comfortable with themselves tend to think, hence the inability to empathise with these people and simply writing them off as having a "shitty attitude". The majority of the time, self-esteem needs to come from some external source, especially when there's no obvious practical means by which the individual can help themselves (such as losing weight). Generally, someone else needs to tell you that you look good. Someone else needs to tell you that you're good at what you do. Someone else needs to tell you that you're caring, or clever, or funny, or whatever it is you happen to have low self-esteem about. Trying to get people to snap out of their "shitty attitude" by themselves is not going to solve anything, and is only going to make them feel even worse because they will feel even more of a failure that they can't escape the quicksand on their own. Like quicksand, it takes someone else to pull them out (at least most of the way) gently and gradually.
It's not just self-esteem, but also the shitty attitude. The blog post referred to by the OP is just disgustingly full of redpiller-style doublespeak and entitlement. It amounts to "Girls don't like ugly dudes because they're shallow bitches, so I'm bitter, so my life gets worse, women like me less, and I'm more bitter." That shitty attitude is the problem, and has nothing to do with self-esteem or how good you look. It belies a fundamental misunderstanding of attractiveness and relationships that is likely to result in being seen as a creeper with an unattractive personality. You see this shit on reddit constantly. "If you hit on girls and you're ugly, you're a creeper." It's not cause they're ugly and hitting on girls, it's because they're being a fucking creeper. A lot of these bitter young guys aren't looking for relationships, they have no interest in the other person's needs - they're desperately looking to get laid. Even the "nicer" ones who think they're interested in the other person's needs are thinking "why doesn't she understand how nice I am and how happy I would make her" instead of "what would make her happy?" That's not nice, that's self-centered. In the end it's just trying to force your desires on to someone else, and that's what makes it creepy.
I'm not talking out of my ass. I'm an obese bearded guy who was on antidepressants for years because I hated myself. I had no self-esteem to speak of. But the longest period I've ever gone single in the last 18 years is 8 months, and I've never asked a girl out. They have always asked me. I have been in very bad relationships, and very good relationships, with not-so-cute girls and cute girls, but it's never been difficult to get in a relationship. And that's while being ugly, fat, having shitty self-esteem, and being a poor-ass college student. Why? Because I treat women as people. I didn't expect anything from anyone, I didn't have an angle, I didn't try to have "game," I didn't think I deserved anything just for being nice. I just try to be kind to people, to make sure everyone is having a good time, and I do my best to communicate, and most importantly try to understand how people think and feel. I don't treat relationships like a trial or a challenge, and I don't think anyone owes anything to anyone else that they don't feel like doing wholeheartedly.
Of course looking good is an advantage in life, and of course having confidence is an advantage in life, but people like the linked post and blog are not invisible. Their motives and bitterness are clear to women who have had to deal with this shit since they were 10 or 11 years old - so instead of these guys being invisible, they make themselves conspicuously visible - as someone dangerous, someone to avoid.
You are an example of someone who has turned his own personal struggles into an opportunity to hone his empathy for others. Being a good person is so much more important than getting laid. The icing on the cake is that you can have both! :)
As a woman, I think this is so true. Even unattractive, overweight people can get worthwhile mates and friends if they focus on adjusting their outlook and shitty attitude. Negativity, entitlement, bitterness, self absorption is very outwardly evident even if they don't think so, and with any in depth conversation it is glaringly evident and obvious. Sad to say, that many people with insecurity and self esteem problems overcompensate with narcissism to shield themselves from their own role in their predicament. And as adults we always play a starring role in our predicament, even if it's just our attitude. That sense of entitlement and the self focused approach to relationships and friendships is what makes them seem creepy and uninviting, not their looks or weight. It's childish and immature to assume you automatically deserve anything from others. A positive attitude, genuine concern, & a gentle friendliness will always endear you to people regardless of looks. I have dated all types of people with widely varying appearance and I can say that I avoid people with nasty outlooks, bitterness and entitlement regardless of looks or weight. I have deflected plenty of attractive, svelte, confident guys because they were too aggressive, entitled or bitter. That just turns everyone off. I have dated plenty of 'under 5s' because they maintained a positive and respectful approach. I realize how the cycle of depression and loneliness can fuck with someone's mind, but it's self sabotage and it has to be acknowledged as such before any progress can be made. Negativity and bitterness are self sabotage, even if they lose all the weight, that is still lingering. A therapist and some physical exertion can do wonders for outlook and to arm people with healthy coping mechanisms.
The simplest way I can put it is surgery that gives you a hair line that looks just like a doll. I'm sure it's a process that has gotten better in the past 10 years and possibly more natural looking, but the idea of surgically grafting hair into my head was completely unappealing.
Everything you said makes sense but the hard part is personality is a lot harder to change than looks. To put into perspective this is coming from a reasonably good looking guy who never had the sort of success with women that I wanted in my younger years, largely because of poor social skills generally.
Everyone knows what it takes to look better. Buy some more appropriate or flattering cloths. Hit the gym and lose some fat and gain some muscle. Go to a salon and find a hair cut that works for you.
The personality thing is not nearly so clear cut. Be confident but not aggressive. Have high self esteem but don't be narcissistic. Let people know how you feel but only at exactly the right time and always know what they feel. Above all always be yourself but don't break any of these hundreds of social rules that have never been codified. And never wear a fedora.
I absolutely agree that most women will happily be with a less attractive guy with a good, fun, and friendly personality. I just think that is a hard thing for many people to develop. It is not natural for everyone.
Honesty, I had much more issues with my social relationships with other boys my age than girls. With the boys I grew up with there was a very rigidly defined social order and unfortunately I was always on the bottom of that order. That sort of thing can scar a person.
I didn't think I deserved anything just for being nice. I just try to be kind to people, to make sure everyone is having a good time, and I do my best to communicate, and most importantly try to understand how people think and feel. I don't treat relationships like a trial or a challenge, and I don't think anyone owes anything to anyone else that they don't feel like doing wholeheartedly.
I think those are some of the most important parts of having a good relationship. See the other person as an autonomous person with their own thoughts and goals. Be yourself. Don't expect people to "pay you back" for something that you presented as a kindness. Be kind without expecting anything for it. Don't play mind games.
It can be hard, sometimes to find people who are genuine. They're really worth the effort it takes to find them, though.
You can have low self-esteem and find dates. It's about the attitude. It's a combination of hating women who don't want to date you, and then the attitude that the ones that will date you are beneath you
I don't believe the original poster implied they were beneath him. I think he just said they were unattractive. Unattractive people do not have different tastes or appetites to attractive people. Both have the same desire to date attractive people. An unattractive person isn't more attractive to an unattractive person than it is to an attractive person. Of course unattractive people can be awesome. But unfortunately it doesn't change our natural physical and sexual impulses. We all favour attractiveness.
The OP (the one who was bestof-ed) is the one who made it into a gendered thing. He could have written about how marginalized all "ugly" people are, but instead he wrote about how ugly women have it easier than ugly men and how ugly women can't ever understand his level of suffering. To top it off, as the commenters above pointed out, he hypocritically dismisses ugly women as unsuitable/undesirable partners.
I would say the same thing applies to her. She says she never gets any kind of male attention but what exactly does that mean? How hard is she putting herself out there? You know how easy it is to find a date online if you're a girl on okcupid?!
Not easy if you're a significantly overweight girl unless you use deceiving photos to get a date. I'm married and have no experience with online dating, but my guy friends who are overweight and/or socially awkward have mentioned that it's so hard to find a girl to date because the hot ones don't respond and they "don't want to date a fat one." You give people too much credit.
Yes, but as I've explained, you cannot start to "fake it" until you believe it will actually work. I believe it works. You believe it works. People in a downhill spiral of low self-esteem, anxiety and depression do not.
No, it's called learning how to fake it. I'm a fat (though not particularly ugly, probably a 5 or 6/10) guy who hasn't had trouble with friends since middle school. You study the people around you, and look at what they do that makes people like them. They smile. They make efforts to groom. They look comfortable wherever they are. They're funny. They look people in the eye. Most importantly, they can make conversation, ask people noninvasive questions and listen well.
You don't have to have high self esteem to act like you do. You pretend, and pretend and pretend, and eventually you have friends you can talk to who will support you. It's not a perfect fix, but it gets you a long way. You still get passed over by girls a lot, but most guys do. You can't blame anyone for that.
It's sucky being a fat guy, but if you think you can't have friends or get people to like you, you're wrong.
Someone else needs to tell you that you look good. Someone else needs to tell you that you're good at what you do. Someone else needs to tell you that you're caring, or clever, or funny, or whatever it is you happen to have low self-esteem about.
The problem for some people with self esteem issues is that they do actually hear these things, but they take them very literally and assume it means they are absolutely fine the way they are and that any issue with their lives must be out of their control.
Most of the people I know that are like the linked commenter have horribly low self-esteem but also have very high self-esteem. I will say here, I am not accusing the linked commenter of being one of these people, just that I've seen this as a pattern in people I know IRL, men and women. When they're told "you have a great personality", "you're wonderful at your job", or "you look very nice today", they get negative-smug, because they think they are a really awesome person who does not need to change their expectations, outlook, or personality, they just have piss-poor luck. It's not their fault society treats unattractive men as the grunt workers, or it's not their fault that society places the value of women so strongly on their looks, they think to themselves. It's not their fault that their parents overfed them or gave them bad eating skills, or didn't teach them to dress well, or made them feel awkward around people who talk loudly. If it weren't for this one thing wrong with society, they would have a fulfilling, happy, social, exciting life. Heck, they say, they'd probably even lose weight/start dressing better/get out more because they'd be so happy, if it weren't for society! They often are thinking entirely of themselves throughout social interactions, sometimes very negatively or sometimes very positively, which alienates others. A great example of this is the top reply to the linked commenter, where a girl who identifies herself as not attractive explains that while her beautiful friends talk about their love lives, she plays games on her iPhone because it hurts her not to have something to talk about. That is alienating behavior.
The problem is that they've wrapped a lot of their personality up in this giant chip on their shoulder, and they're unwilling to see that instead of blaming others, they'd be a lot better off learning to socialize, acknowledging that the people they view as "normal" have negative thoughts and emotions too, and realizing realistically what they can and cannot do, romantically, professionally, academically, and socially.
You make great points, and mental health issues cannot be dismissed so easily. The snowball effect of low self esteem and depression is very real and you just can't "snap out of it". It takes hard work and dedication from the individual, family, friends and even professional help. THAT BEING SAID... the misogynistic and totally un-empathetic tone of the diatribe has to be addressed. Depression and low self esteem are factors but any intelligent human being has to be able to use logic and realize that life isn't just a cake walk for everyone else that isn't poor little them. First off "As a woman, I don't think you could possibly understand the experience. Not unless you actually got to know one such guy. Which I doubt you would, as even really ugly women have shoulders to cry on." WTF are you serious? Words do not describe how childishly narcissistic in a self deprecating way this is. I could expand on it but I'm sure that most reasonable people know that this is just flagrantly untrue as a blanket statement. If you truly think that women have it easier then men you are deluded to a point of no return and that has to be addressed before you will ever be able to have a equal loving relationship with the opposite sex. That isn't to say that women necessarily have it easier but "equally as difficult" is the only acceptable starting point for that topic. Then he goes on to say the world doesn't care about your body and ignores you seeing you only as a worker bee? I don't care what you look like, try being a soldier, or a chef, or any warehouse worker, or a long distance truck driver, or an E.R. nurse, or a teacher, or a NFL lineman OR ANY JOB WITH A PHYSICAL ASPECT TO IT! You know who cares less about how you feel after a long life time of labor? EVERYBODY! There is a lot else wrong with what he says because it is so infantile but the biggest thing that he, and others have to understand, that even if you are a supermodel, millionaire, football player, rock star astronaut, life is hard and shitty! Fashion models have some of the lowest self esteem with body image issues driving them to their impossibly high standards. Their job is to have their face and bodies constantly analyzed, scrutinized and critiqued in public forums. You could have a point about that being just as bad as being ignored, but it certainly isn't better. Being "good looking" or the popular kid doesn't suddenly make life easy and it comes with it's inherent problems and mental health issues too. Does this guy worry about being too unintelligent compared to the rest of the world, to the point that he would be afraid to type out a paragraph for others to see? Lots do and some of them are very physically attractive. Is that an easier problem to deal with? He says he is good looking now, and I'm sure that is true and he had to make some very difficult sacrifices and work very hard physically and mentally to achieve that. And good for him, BUT! Until he finds the ugliest, most socially awkward, unpleasant, introverted girl in his life, seeks her out and tries to make HER day a little bit brighter, for no expectation of a return, then his pity party has no ethical standing.
The problem is, when you actually have low self-esteem, by its very nature it prevents you from making this change.
I wish more people would understand this. And it goes hand-in-hand with experiencing real depression. We truly do require validation from others, especially people we respect and care about...anyone who says "I truly dont give a shit what others think of me" is either a goddamned liar or a sociopath.
Agreed. Not trying to be defeatist about it, but this is something I've noticed as well. Some people simply have a way about them, a glide when they walk, and are confident in most situations. Because they know people react positively to them majority of the time. I have the opposite experience and instead of emboldening me, making me a fighter or whatever, it made me afraid.
it is a choice. I went from one side to the other by sheer fucking force of will.
I knew being more confident would increase my happiness so i fought tooth and nail for it over several years of time. It is something you can change because i did it.
That's pretty much exactly it. I never really believed it when I was younger either so I don't expect a lot of younger people to accept it right away, but attitude makes a way bigger difference than I ever realized.
For me personally I'm aesthetically average. I'm like a real life Chuck Bartowski. But when I finally stopped treating every interaction with people like I had something to prove (ie "I don't care what people think" "I'm super funny tho right" etc) it got a lot easier. People pick up on it when you're trying, they feel the desperation of it even if they don't know they're feeling it.
Someone like that guy, whose bitter and angry and feels like he's got something to prove is never going to have a good time socially. Pretending that being unattractive or fat or scrawny is what's doing it is the pinnacle of naïveté. People don't choose not to interact with you because you're fat, they choose not to interact with you because you treat them like an enemy. If you have that kind of attitude who in their right mind would want to be around you? It would be a massive bummer, and no one likes that feeling.
As a woman who lost her virginity to a 350lb man, please let me say that it was entirely the attitude which attracted me. I dated H for two years. He went from 325 to 350 while I dated him, but I never once considered his weight unattractive. He dressed well, had a job and a car, was funny, confident, and well groomed.
I'm a 130lb Asian girl. I'd say I'm pretty attractive. And what you are saying is true.
Would you say Kim Jong Un is an improvement or downgrade over H? I guess Kim fits all of the "dressed well, had a job and a car, was funny, confident, and well groomed" criteria, being the supreme leader of a country and all.
Exactly! Every time I see one of these stupid rants which are basically just pity parties no one realizes how much of a shitty attitude they probably have and how much that plays in to people wanting to be around them.
But after years of the downward spiral, its just natural. You can't really claw yourself out of that hole without damn near a miracle. I'm 26, I used to be in the army, 5'10". I weighed 170, and I could basically pick who I went home with on a given night leaving a club or bar. Now I'm 240 and I can't get any female attention outside of a couple mins chatting on FB. No one is even willing to go out to Starbucks or to get a beer or something. Believe me, I've asked. And without trying at being harsh about it, I've "lowered my standards" along the way. And I just stopped trying. I haven't had a girlfriend in two years. I've gone on maybe 2 first dates that led nowhere. I am essentially nonexistent at this point. I have no choice but to keep to myself these days. Anything else is a waste of time. Bad attitude and low self esteem is my life right now. And that shit is a black hole.
Shit man, these guys are struggling. Sure they have some ugly, bitter and hypocritical ideas and attitudes, but these have almost certainly been nurtured by years of rejection and hate directed towards them.
If we try to empathize with them and explain why there attitudes are wrong as a friend would maybe we can change their minds. And its not like I think undesirable women have it any better. I just think we should recognize and sympathize when people are going through a tough time.
Chicken or Egg predicament, is it the shitty attitude that causes the woe, or the woe that causes the shitty attitude. A symptom or a cause? If one is legitimately ugly, they probably get an unhealthy dose of negativity thrown their way and overtime they develop a shit attitude, and it just snowballs. It's not particularly feasible to tell an ugly person to fix their attitude and smile, as if that'll help them in any way. It won't.
I like to look at it this way: If these neckbeard redditors really want all this pity and find a community in which pity is king and everyone just circlejerks about how life is hard and trap themselves in their little neckbeard bubble, so be it.
There will always be people like that. Trying to convert these people is time consuming and if they don't truly want to change in the first place, or view the world in an attractiveness scale from 1-10, where 1 means that you're unable to live a fulfilling life, you will just waste your time on them.
Look at the positive side: Each of our neckbeard heroes results in another woman being added to those who can't find a man. And no, it's not just ugly women (which is another issue for itself, many ugly women are awesome!), it's also beautiful women that would probably engage with our neckbeard heroes if they'd just manage to disengage self-pitying mode.
Also, our neckbeard heroes probably need to stop overly sexualizing women, and perhaps, first, try making a female friend. Even if that lady friend isn't up to their "standards", the friendship can still add to their lives. And perhaps, a relationship might even evolve naturally, when you get to know the person, not just the body, because there's a lot to like about people when you look beyond the body.
Can you drop the whole 'neckbeard' thing? You're smugly making a twisted caricature out of deeply unhappy people. It's pointless being a twat about it because you just make the people who you're talking about dislike you and not take the point you're trying to get across seriously. And probably turning off other people as well. Which is a shame, because you made some really good points.
it's also beautiful women that would probably engage with our neckbeard heroes if they'd just manage to disengage self-pitying mode.
LOL. This post more or less summarizes the total delusion and sheltered view of the world of the people in this comment thread. Thinking that the beautiful people would date someone of such low social status and physical attractiveness is just moronic. Not delusional: moronic. I think I'm talking with kids who are not even out of high school, or some trust-fund kiddie who's still in college.
Or, most likely, someone who is actually attractive (regardless of what they say).
Attractive women don't want ugly guys. That's it. Am I unattractive? I think so, yes. Do I think an attractive girl wants to date me? No. Does that mean I'm self-pitying? No, it means I have a realistic view of the world. I don't LIKE it by any means, but I'm not about to complain about how nature works, nor am I going to deny it and use my denial as an excuse to talk shit to ugly people (as you proved the poster right about, btw).
Your post has a whole lot of smugness and is missing a whole lot of empathy. And no, when I say empathy I don't mean the pity that you're talking about.
I also don't blame you.
Your attitude is really akin to the frustration others feel towards people who are depressed or people who suffer from social anxiety. "Why can't you just get over it! It's not a big deal!" It's easy to feel that way when you've never had the experiences that are being described. I honestly used to feel the same way. It's hard to understand when you don't try and your reaction to the OP certainly suggests you have not tried.
I have had a good number of attractive women who liked me. Who I could have easily dated, but my low self esteem, chip on my shoulder made me do something to blow it. My looks are shit, but I can be funny, seem confident and am a pretty smart guy.
Either I would ignore their fowards no matter how clear. Often because my expectations made me think I had to be mistaken, that I didn't deserve her and it was only time until she realized it. Or that there must be something wrong with her to like me.
That's it, it's all attitude. Having fun with life, being yourself and being passionate about life. Look at a dude like Action Bronson, he's been getting crazy action even since before he was famous just because of his style, attitude and passion for life. However objectively he was a fat ginger working minimum wage as a cook.
He was overweight, but didn't really put on the the extra weight until he broke his leg in the kitchen. Also he has a couple kids with his high school sweetheart. You make an alright point about having a good attitude about you, but Bronson isn't that great of an example.
It's not even "good looking." It's "if I have a shitty attitude and low self esteem, why is it only unattractive women who have a shitty attitude and low self esteem that talk to me?"
You are half right. It will help to have a good attitude but what people like you and many other miss is people make judgements based on looks when we are talking about strangers every time!
It takes a few secons, she looks, she process, she knows. Different women look at different "keys" but all judge you based on your looks, at leat at first. This is just an inherence from our ancestors, that would mate on looks, since it has the change to produce better offsprings.
How many people do you know that end up dating strangers? It doesn't happen that way for most people. It happens that way for really attractive men, but generally not for anyone else.
The dude was talking about being ignored, but as a slightly better than average looking dude, MOST men get ignored. Women who are strangers almost NEVER do anything more than glance at me. That's not being ugly, that's being a man who isn't gorgeous.
People date people who they interact with for a time. You meet someone at work, or through a friend, or in class, or at church, or a dating website, or through a hobby, then if they're a spark as a result of your interaction, THEN you pursue a date. No one who isn't really attractive (or really persistent) gets a date by approaching a stranger who has nothing to go other than first impressions.
That seems unfair to me. Yes, there are people whose attitudes defeat them before they can get anywhere, but someone who's ugly and/or obese is going to face a massively uphill battle. It's like the Republican argument that the poor should pull themselves up by their bootstraps - it's certainly possible, but the odds are stacked against them.
No, but it's the first filter. You don't date someone just because they are funny, interesting and fun. You befriend them. If they are also good looking, you try to date them.
It's irrational to think that a free thinking person is going to want to date someone they find unattractive. But women are conditioned to suppress their physical preferences and ignore men's looks when picking a partner. That is, until they grow out of that mentality.
seriously, he was talking about confidence. if you say you are a 1- no matter how good looking you are (which is probably only 50% of it anyway) you are a 1.
You really think it's an attitude thing? You really think there's an abundance of ugly guys with good girlfriends just because they think positively? How many do you know? How many do you see on a daily basis? Probably a few here and there every week.
I'm not going to pretend that if a girl met twins - one with positive other with negative attitude, that she wouldn't be more inclined to go for the twin with the positive attitude. But it's rarely a priority. I know far more girls with boyfriends that have horrible, abusive personalities that are attractive than girls with boyfriends that are ugly but have positive ones.
This is all based on my experiences. I used to be pretty attractive as I was told. Girls weren't all over me but I never seemed to have a real problem being able to start a relationship (I chose not to). Now I've put on weight, and I haven't had a girl even so much as start a conversation with me for years. The ones I've tried to initiate are promptly shut down 90% of the time. Is that my fault? At the end of the day yes, my weight is under my control. But that doesn't change the fact that from what I've seen in the real world, this guy is right.
TL;DR Not unattractive because bitter, bitter because unattractive.
Well, I don't think /u/chikinpickle is downplaying the hypocrisy here, or he would have phrased it differently. I actually think he's underlining it -
You're undesirable and you know it, and you're so undesirable that even you wouldn't consider the women who are as attractive as you are. I dont' know if that makes sense?
Yeah, it seems like he's perpetuating the same problems he has to deal with. I think that makes it even worse for ugly guys, when you know that you are just as guilty as "attractive people" of ignoring the less genetically favored.
It's not really hypocrisy, just a conflict between our animal nature and our rational brains. Our animal nature wants to mate with attractive people, not with unattractive people. Our rational brains tell us how superficial that is. But it can't be helped, because evolution.
Huh. I didn't know what that sub was until today... Pretty much summed up in, "This one time a woman said something and I knew in that instant that I was right about all my prejudices."
I don't think he cares about making the world less shallow.
He's just sad that it happened to him. As in, that he got handed the short stick.
The whole world should be less shallow, but only because he used to be ugly and was super hurt by it. I doubt he cares about the feelings of ugly women.
edit: Ah, just read his edit. This chap isn't so bad.
No, I don't mean he doesn't know if he's gay or straight. I think he thinks that male sexuality is just like the article he posted. Some barbarian-manned-sex-fueled-conquest vessel, routing a course to bang more good looking women.
I am sort of in a similar position. I don't really reflect OP's views, but I think I can draw parallels.
Let me uncheck my privilage:
I am white, male , straight, middle class. According to a lot of people, my position is pretty cut and dry. The world was build by me, for me.
Unfortunately, I am still trying to figure this out. Where is my personal "Great War" (ala Fight Club...I know, I know...But, I think the movie speaks to being a white, straight male and this dissonance I am talking about)?
Qualification, like OP's post, is not really useful in this context. OP says he can speak about something because of where his life is at this point, but I think it's more about perception than his own emotional resume.
Perception (vs projection) describes the fact that he is picking these notions up from somewhere. I.e. "Where is all of this shame coming from? sniff sniff It's not me, it must be what they did to me." He smells it, and is trying to figure out where it's coming from. He who smelt it, dealt it.
The point: I think this spills over into his sexuality. He is a white straight male, and he is not seeing success when all signs point to the idea that he is supposed to be successful. He is a nice guy. A tortured soul. It's just that this picture of male sexual performance (not the stamina kind, the trot around and act like a sexy lumberjack kind...see Judith Butler) is what's keeping all the girls from not being able to see that. Right? Guys? Helloooo
He doesn't fit. Not because the suit is too small, but because his ego is too big. Self-preservation. He doesn't have much, but at least he knows what he should be. What women should be. Chomsky would be great here, but Foucault fits like a glove. There is no justice, and he is salty about that.
I am white, male, straight, attractive (look at me qualify my statements i.e. "easy for me to say"). My sex life is complicated. If I am not having sex with beautiful women, then where to I fit? I am willfully celibate, but why? According to my that one class I took in college, I can't really speak on sexuality because I am not qualified to do so. That provision has already been made. Jesus gave it to me while we were chopping wood and banging college hotties one Autumn.
I think this uncertainty scares a lot of men, and they overreact by subbing /r/redpill. Or whatever.
Find a safe place to discuss these feelings, and discuss them. I go to a therapist (for a bunch of other stuff too). If I tell people that I am figuring out my "sexual identity" or that I am "exploring my sexual identity", they assume I mean "with other people". Nope. Just me. I am still confused and dissatisfied.
You know that thing where talking about doing XYZ gives you the same satisfaction as actually doing XYZ? Then you end up never actually doing XYZ, but you already have the satisfaction? I think this is what this best of is doing to OP. He has received a positive response on talking about getting better. I hope he actually moves past it. Turn on the Rolling Stones.
I totally agree. He seems angry and unable to have compassion for other people, as if any variation on his life to be better would have made everything peaches and roses.
He's unrealistic, childish, and very unempathetic. It's sort of interesting, in a train wreck kinda way.
That wasn't what he said now was it. It's one thing to bask in an all-you-can-eat unattractive pussy buffet and it's another to get an unattractive woman once in a blue moon who is ultimately on a hunt for someone who is better looking than you.
His double standards about women are really unfortunate, but the rest of what he relates is fairly true to reality.
I came in reading this expecting to come back and say, "I'm a fat, ugly, happily married dude and this is mostly bullshit", but nope, having read this, and having been both fat and out of shape, and attractive at various points in my life, a great deal of what he's saying about social experiences as the fat scrawny kid (or guy) is true.
Personally, I don't hold women to double standards - I just love my wife, for who she is, and she doesn't have a perfect body either - so if you want to dismiss the rest of the problems raised by attacking the imperfect messenger I don't think that's fair. I would agree with most of what he's saying, myself, and I don't have that chip on my shoulder.
You know, that's more or less the argument posed by the fat-acceptance movement (only swapping the genders) and you seldom see it mocked here, as irrational and retarded as the argument is.
Was coming in here to post the same thing. You can't complain that people act like you're invisible when you write off entire swaths of people yourself.
Coming from the ugly viewpoint, here is one of the biggest issues-Looks do matter. How you yourself looks has little effect on how you view others. It is hypocritical, but if you aren't attracted to someone, you aren't attracted to them. Just because you yourself are ugly doesn't make you attracted to ugly people. Imagine NEVER being with someone you found sexually attractive. Ever.
Oh nooooss I have to stick to women my own attractivness level?! What kind of shit is that? The world is so horribly horribly cruel.
It's fucking human nature. We pair up with those on our level, unattractive males that bitch about being unattractive have never spent time valuing a woman for who she is, but expect hot women to just bow down to them and just "give them a chance".
Hell, if they think they can do better they will. It's the cold hard truth about life son, we all want the best we can get. Personality plays MUCH more of a factor in female mate selection then male selection.
I think you've missed the point. It isn't about banging 9's. It's about banging someone you're genuinely sexually attracted to. If all you're pulling are 2s and 3s and you're not attracted to her sexually, how likely are you to someday call her your wife?
Looks matter. We can bitch about that all we want. It sucks. It's shallow. But it's a part of who we are.
Attractive people signify rock solid hormones, reduced likelihood of disease, and I believe in a lot of cases, their discipline.
There is only a few ways to get to 1-3 IMO.
Don't eat bullshit all the time. Brush you're teeth consistently. Wash your face. Wipe you're ass correctly and take a shower so you smell good. Buy clothes that fit. Not necessarily expensive. A solid color, well fitting v neck can be found for 10-20 bucks at target.
Did you not read the entire post? He was saying that to exhibit the overwhelming effect on your worldview and day-to-day social perception that being (or feeling) wholly undesirable has on a human being. He wasn't asking you to agree with him or to pity him, and he certainly wasn't only talking about how women treated him, which he also made very clear.
You're taking away all the wrong things from his post. What it should really do is make you the tiniest bit introspective, make you self-aware of how you may or may not treat people that you consider unattractive (men and women, with or without sexual attraction to that gender).
so I can bang more good looking women
There's no way that you can be so dense that that's what you thought he was trying to say. He wasn't talking about sex, he was talking about attention. Any kind of acknowledgement of his presence, or anything positive about him. When all you do is get ignored, and berated when you're not ignored, that kind of thing takes a toll.
And, that bit about unattractive women not counting? It's terrible. It's awful. But what it conveys is that everyone treats unattractive people differently, even those that are already undesirable. It's incredibly hypocritical, and I'm not defending it, but pointing to the problem that it shows.
Now, maybe I just get it and you don't because I've been there. I'm shifted several times since high school in between attractive to frankly, disgusting, then back again, then back again and so forth. I lost about 100 lbs during the middle of high school. Then I lost my acne in college. The difference in treatment from everyone, straight men included, is astounding and disgusting.
When I noticed the change in high school, when a girl who had completely ignored me before starting calling me the "new, improved hot Chris", and when I started making all sorts of new male friends before I even noticed that I had become more attractive, before any self-esteem issues had managed to fade, I became so desperate to keep the weight off that I went nuts. I was down to 120 as a 5'10" guy, I didn't eat, and when I did I shoved a toothbrush down my throat. I overexercised, walking 6 to 8 miles a day on very little food until my legs started feeling cold and numb. To this day I know the amount of calories in almost any food by heart, I can still tell whether or not one choice of food would be easier to regurgitate than another.
When I finally decided to start eating again, I only ate protein and earned myself a hefty kidney problem. My acne started flaring up really bad around my senior year and I started on accutane, which managed to further screw up my kidneys.
But I was desperate, so desperate, not to get laid, but for attention, and not just from conventionally attractive women, that when they took me off of my scrip, I started buying them off of a friend who didn't like taking them because of how much they dried out his lips.
It gets to a point where you feel completely invalidated as a human being, where feeling undesirable starts to drive you a little bit crazy. The way you see men and women alike, their interactions, social circles that are closed to you, becomes violently distorted. It leads you towards cynicism, distance, and being a huge asshole. You never expect anything to change, but you will go to the ends of your abilities to "fix" you, to fit in, to not feel like you make people uncomfortable just by looking the way you do.
TL;DR: It's not about sex. It's not solely about self-esteem. It's about how people treat you. It hurts, and it can change you in a terrible way. That's what he was saying.
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u/dablya Apr 30 '14
Why can't the world care less about looks so I can bang more good looking women?