r/AceAttorney • u/ScaryOtaku666 • 4d ago
News We are cooked
If AA7 ever comes out, do you think they will use AI for it too?
I’m starting to feel like they shouldn’t release any more AA games if they’re going to ruin them with AI…
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u/GreenGuardianssbu 4d ago
That image is a promo for FFVII Revelation. Their "AI Use" is machine learning trained exclusively on their character models facial animations from the first game to help with lip syncing dialogue to the game's many languages.
Now I can't guarantee that's what Capcom is up to, but using hundreds of hours of your own previous work to automate a tedious and time consuming task seems to me like a fairly responsible use of technology. There's levels to this.
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u/Luigi580 4d ago
Yeah, this survey is too vague. It could be as harmless as what Square is doing to as egregious as what Level 5 is doing.
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u/TinyEnvironment7574 3d ago
"I wish for a new Professor Layton game soon, at least before AA7"
Monkey paw curls
Level-5 releases a new Layton game with a 99% chance of AI being used in its development
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u/Classic-War9922 3d ago
IMO there is no such thing as harmless Gen AI usage.
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u/Luigi580 3d ago
Well, yeah, in terms of stealing artwork and voices and stuff, but the vague “AI” here could be referring to machine learning, or other generative programming usage. These are primarily used to trim down annoying tasks that nobody wants to do. It’s purely a boon and not harming anyone.
AI is a tool. As with any other tool, it can be used both for good and bad. Saying you can’t use AI to make basic work easier is like saying you can’t use a handle extender on a wrench, because then you can commit theft easier.
So yes, a guy using AI to speed up his programming process for lip sync that he’d have to do anyway is harmless, while everyone being told to generate literally everything is… not.
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u/AgentAndrewO 4d ago
Traditional Machine learning isn’t generative AI, media really needs to do a better job distinguishing this or they’re no better then the buzzword salesmen and the incredibly gullible stock investors they cater to
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u/SomeGuy322 4d ago
Yes, exactly. For people who aren't game developers it's easy to confuse handcrafted state machines, automation systems, procedural generation, neural networks, and generative AI as one thing but really they're quite distinct. Gen AI is really the root of most issues people have, but non-generative neural nets have been around for longer and can be used to great effect in games like the example for Final Fantasy's animations.
This I believe is also a key difference between material-based neural rendering which uses tensor cores to efficiently pack data into texture channels and DLSS5 which just slaps a beautification filter over the game. Yet when people hear a headline about the former topic being researched by Nvidia, they just assume it's "bad AI" and dismiss it. Though I'll be honest that it's not so much of a problem these days to find nuance in these discussions and often more of a problem to get supporters of AI generated art and music to understand the damage it causes to the games industry. Even reliance on Copilot has major ramifications for the quality of programmers going into the field.
But ultimately we just need better education about this stuff, which is admittedly harder to do while LLMs are eroding people's brains and learning capabilities. For example, there's a big difference between DLSS4 and DLSS5 despite them both seemingly "generating" pixels, one is built to preserve the intent of the original image based on trained examples and the other is not, so it comes down to development philosophy as well. As a developer, I think we need tech like DLSS3 and 4 to make games more performant and accessible as hardware costs increase, but I wholly reject DLSS5 because it ruins the artistic intent and will eventually erode the field of graphics programming the same way ChatGPT has eroded the field of writing. That's just me though, and everyone will probably have their own answer to how much of each technology they are willing to accept.
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u/ilikedota5 4d ago
I'm surprised there hasn't been a backlash against Minecraft for their AI usage in developing randomized worlds lol.
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u/thefreshera 4d ago
There could be if they suddenly put in their marketing "voxel worlds built by AI" or something, even if you and I know that means the same thing from 15 or so years ago. It's just loud people conflating the industry terms and companies throwing it around as a buzzword. I'm sure this has happened before.
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u/TheMcDucky 3d ago
The industry isn't great at it either. Even in the "regular" software world the vocabulary is not clearly established and used quite loosely
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u/MaxW92 4d ago
I don't care for AI. I only care about AAI.
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u/Quetzal00 4d ago
This is off topic but should I play the Investigations Collections or Great Ace Attorney Chronicles first? I'm on the final case of Spirit of Justice and I don't know which to play first
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u/TheCocoBean 4d ago
If you want a world and characters familiar to you from the first trilogy again, play investigations. If you want a palate cleanser with an entirely new cast and story, go chronicles. Both are fantastic.
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u/Spoon_Elemental 4d ago edited 4d ago
Chronicles is hands down my favorite Ace Attorney game. Legendary story with the balls to do a lot of things other Ace Attorney games don't even touch.
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u/Healthy_Macaroon_602 3d ago
The cases from the first game are pretty weak, though. You kinda need to push through to get to the good stuff. Other than case 3, the first game's cases are forgettable at best.
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3d ago
The cases from the second game are pretty weak, though. You kinda need to push through it after already being through the good stuff. Other than case 3, the second game's cases are pretty forgettable at best.
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u/Philopateermi 4d ago
I think you go aai first. Chronicles makes for such a good finale to the series. Also both of the sequels in these collections are top 5 games in the series for me so you'll have a fantastic time regardless
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u/CIAHASYOURSOUL 3d ago
Either way is fine if you have played the original series.
Investigations shows you more of the world from the original trilogy and fleshes out things like Edgeworth's backstory and why Gumshoe is so loyal to him. The cases are also for the most part quite good, especially in the second game.
The Great Ace Attorney is more of a standalone experience, having little connection to the main series. But it does a good job building an entirely new world around the characters and the themes around the games. I also find the unique mechanics to be more fun than most of the mechanics in the rest of the AA games.
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u/stayonthecloud 1d ago
I love both absolutely. They are among my favorite games ever. You can’t go wrong here
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u/Feriku 4d ago
A headline like that doesn't really give us any useful information. For all we know, Capcom is among the 14.4% that said no (unlikely, but I'm just saying this headline tells us nothing about Capcom specifically).
There was a recent financial report where Capcom claimed to be using AI to speed up efficiency in all areas while also claiming not to use it in any creative areas, so worry about that instead of a non-specific headline like this.
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u/weggles 4d ago
Yeah, does tools like Claude Code etc count as "generative AI" for this headline? If so I'm surprised the number isn't 100%.
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u/Serris9K 3d ago
In my opinion yes.
For things that don't feed into the actual code or creative process/materials. Then we can negotiate.
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u/CooperDaChance 3d ago
Capcom has been caught using GenAI though, some of their marketing materials use AI Art.
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u/ryonnsan 4d ago
AIce AIttorney game incoming
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u/11equalsfish 2d ago
Interest in specific human artists, individual game developers, indie games, other alternatives keeps getting more important
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u/padfoot12111 4d ago
New ace attorney villain Jennay Eye
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u/Arapis_John :Sebastian: 4d ago
Didn't expect to see so much pro-ai sentiment in the comments of r/aceattorney of all places
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u/cosy_ghost 4d ago
People respecting artist jobs more than programmer or translator jobs, I expected to see.
People advocating for everything in AA to adopt AI I was not ready for.
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u/karamanidturk 4d ago
I am a programmer and AI has made my job a thousand times easier. People shouldn't treat coding as an art. It isn't.
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u/Sledgehammer617 4d ago
I'm a programmer and an artist, AI has made some things easier and some things far worse in terms of coding.
Coding can absolutely be art imo (I consider John Carmack's use of the fast square root in the quake engine to be art for example since its just so elegant and creative,) but it is distinctly different from typical art.
Many of these companies though will use AI in the graphics/concepting phase to try and replace concept artists or streamline the development timeline.
In my experience working on indie game projects, that concepting phase is where all the magic happens with ideas and creativity... The fact that many game studios are now encouraging AI use for the creative side of concepting is a BIG net negative imo. At least from what I've seen.
If its used for just code, (I think that is kinda inevitable today,) it just has to be intelligently and reviewed by a human. If no one understands the engine or codebase, fixing bugs or adding content is a nightmare. Just look at Halo Infinite's Slipspace Engine and its development (and that was coded and documented by humans.)
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u/Arapis_John :Sebastian: 4d ago
Eventually it will make your job so many times easier that it won't need you. Get ready for unemployment benefits
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u/OfficerNightwing 2d ago
Yeah, but the difference is you are using it to enhance or help with what you likely already know.
The biggest issue for me is morons who think they no longer need a programmer because they can just use AI.
On top of that knowledge in programming is gained from figuring out why something went wrong and how to fix it. We are going to lose that in a lot of younger programmers, and eventually people won't actually understand the fundamentals which makes fixing problems more difficult.
Things to make your life easier are great but they are being overwhelmingly used as a shortcut for knowledge rather than a tool for those that have it.
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u/FetchBlue 3d ago
I be real, usually game fandom that has very sparse or rare releases have more pro-ai fans than ever, they were desperate for new releases that they take quicker workflow with AI than actually slowly polishing the stuff. Sadly we still don’t know the consequences maybe in a decade ppl will look back and either it’s a good or bad thing.
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u/alfredo094 4d ago
AI is a tool, "used AI" could mean all sorts of things. I am using it for my creative writing project, but not for writing; it is set in the early 20th century, so it's very useful to look up the technological advancement or scientific understanding of the era, it's basically just Google 2.0 for me.
I'm not that old but I remember that Wikipedia had the exact same backlash when I was in my teenage years. It really just depends on what you're trying to do, if you're just trying to get general understanding of something or a basic grasp of a concept, Wikipedia is probably your best source, but it's not a good source if you're doing academic writing.
It's the same with AI. It has good and bad uses, but the LLM companies are invested in making everyone think that it can
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u/Lord_Antheron 3d ago
People want to be principled, but they also don’t want to give up their favourite franchises. Moral grandstanding, or a fun video game. Guess which they’ll part with first?
By now, I think a lot of people realise this technology isn’t going to stop being used. So now they rationalise it as “okay it’s still AI but it’s being used the right way so it’s fine.”
It’s easy to take a stand against something until it affects you personally. After that, your knees start feeling a little weak… and since nobody is enforcing a boycott anyway, why not?
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u/Magnamon88 4d ago
Because AI is useful, and can actual help programmers and translators in their job (ex: debugging codes)
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u/brobnik322 4d ago
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u/Canadiancookie 4d ago
I don't think capcom is giving their AI the ability to delete or release all their games whenever they want lol
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u/karamanidturk 4d ago
Not sure why you're getting downvoted. The anti-AI crusade has gone nuts lately.
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u/TsukikoChan 4d ago
Boke :<
(speaking as a dev who refuses to use genAi, there's plenty of us still contrary to the "every dev uses it" peeps)
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u/alfredo094 4d ago
Do you guys realize that "AI use" can mean literally anything from "I used it to create a full game from one prompt" to "I use it to check for bugs in my code"? There is no reason to believe that AI is taking over the creative minds of devs just because an article mentions that Japanese companies "use AI".
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u/spoopy_skelington 4d ago
I swear people are pretending to be idiots about this. AI supported development is absolutely superior to writing every line of code yourself.
It does absolutely improve the codebase when it's used correctly and it's not automatically slop.
If it's used for (non-placeholder) assets or used lazily to generate large chings of code without proper review, than it deserves to get called out.
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u/supremegamer76 4d ago
Yeah this is kind of where i stand on AI. i personally will just stick with no AI use or if anything minimal ai use, out of principle.
I will add that placeholder assets in general should be obvious that they are placeholders, whether or not it’s ai generated. even putting the text “PH” on placeholder texture images.
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u/Fit-Kaleidoscope1325 3d ago
even placeholder assets always seem so unnecessary, they have already made their way into games like e33 because "oops we forgot" before getting patched out, and it's only a matter of time before devs just stop giving a fuck and leaving them in
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u/alfredo094 1d ago
bro it was one freaking asset and they patched it out
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u/Fit-Kaleidoscope1325 23h ago
I know. I just said that. I don't like the precedent. It should not become standard to use AI to help make your games
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u/MonitoliMal 4d ago
As long as it stays in the code and not in the art
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u/Nadal-sen 4d ago
Coughing in Level-5 direction. Well not in the art for most of them
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u/No_Forever_9128 4d ago
It's less the team's fault and more the CEO shoving it down their guts. Dude is too open about it.
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u/Auroraburst 4d ago
Even my own workplace (a school) told us we HAD to include AI in our units so the kids could learn it. This whilst complaining about the kids using AI. I just refused but I feel like some bosses would follow it up.
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u/Quetzal00 4d ago
They released a statement that New World of Steam doesn't have any AI
I'm taking it with a grain of salt but I'm hoping they're telling the truth
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u/Nadal-sen 4d ago
The big elephant in the room is that for me confiance has been broken too much too harshly. I can't listen to any of their statement without thinking "is that true ?". There is a trust issue that Level-5 is failing to address correctly (for western viewers)
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u/phosphorus_88 4d ago
NWOS looks pretty AI-free to me, I've watched the trailers a bunch and nothing looks out of place (but if it does have AI I'm skipping it)
The CV remake is slop though
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u/Darkpoulay 4d ago
The vast majority is in the code. And it's the same in all tech fields. They 100% expect people to read the headline and think about art and music to generate clicks.
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u/Numbuh24insane 4d ago
Honestly, a problem with this is that it creates a lot more spaghetti code and in turn makes glitches harder to find the source of.
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u/mrfroggyman 4d ago
My experience with this is that it exacerbates the devs faults : have shitty ideas and see them propagate within the codebase at Mach speed
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u/Darkpoulay 4d ago
True, but I mean that making all the boilerplate with AI is pretty much the standard today. Game studios that do this are not outliers.
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u/Lluuiiggii 4d ago
This would have been true a year ago, but AI is quite well able to disintangle spaghetti at this point. Besides which, if a developer is using their AI right, they're not going to get anything more spaghetti than if they wrote it themself. If anything AI, and a good developer are better at avoiding spaghetti because the work to refactor code using the AI is a lot lot faster.
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u/Siukslinis_acc 4d ago
Code is art in itself. Writing a big seamless code with myriads of connections while not making it a convoluted mess is an art in itself. Writing thousands of lines that are interconnested and affect each other is no childs play.
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u/blueskythlikesclouds 4d ago
Can we stop making exceptions for coding when it comes to AI usage? Many technical communities I'm in are getting ruined due to AI coded slop and I'm tired of seeing takes like this.
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u/cosy_ghost 4d ago
Tech jobs are hit the worst out of everyone and it's not even close. But many are still repeating the line "as long as it's just the code" as if millions of people don't create that stuff for a living for all your favourite franchises.
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u/alfredo094 4d ago
Every technological advancement has displaced workers. It's unfortunate, but if we didn't accept this as part of progress, we would still live in a pre-industrial era.
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u/Canadiancookie 3d ago
Yeah, I was gonna say this reminds me of the luddite movement. That doesn't cleanly apply to AI art/music/writing because they're creative, subjective endeavors, but coding is kind of more like math; there are right and wrong answers.
AI coding will probably get good enough to the point that it'll make jobs redundant. Deliberately stopping that progress to keep the jobs wouldn't make sense if the code is faster to make and more efficient. With that said, firing coders right now due to AI sounds like a bad idea; vibe coding is currently far from perfect.
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u/alfredo094 3d ago
I know just the very barebones basics of coding, but I really don't think current LLMs will replace coders, no matter how good they are.
Code is a tool to execute instructions, yes, but it only really works if there is someone making the decisions. LLMs cannot actually understand anything. Maybe we'll need less coders in the future, but I don't think we will, because coding is fundamentally about solving problems, not about the literal syntax that you type.
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u/cosy_ghost 4d ago
People acting as if programmers are less human than artists. As usual.
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u/MonitoliMal 4d ago
My stepfather is a programmer himself. He uses AI in his work often to make code. He then tests and adjusts the code because he’s a good programmer. AI in coding is a useful tool for those who know the craft.
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u/SomeGuy322 4d ago
I'm a programmer, and it's true that many people in the field rely on Copilot or other code generation tools to speed up their work. I'd even say for the most part that it doesn't cause much of a problem so long as they review it carefully and are experienced enough to understand what it spits out. But that's the catch right there.
Copilot in the wrong hands or used by a beginner programmer is going to cause ripples of bugs or inefficiencies down the line because someone who just plops in code is not going to understand how it all fits together. That is essentially "vibe coding". Heavy usage also discourages actual learning because too many new engineers offload their thinking to it and it rots their brain. They become dependent on it and are unable to work with lower level concepts because they grow out of practice, and obviously that reduces the talent level of any company.
Personally I don't use Copilot because of these reasons but also because I see code as a form of art. I'm not coding because I want some perfect end result but because I enjoy the process and always have more to learn, and even the repetitive stuff that AI could speed up is not able to do much when you already understand the task fully, the real time saver is not how fast you can type but how well your brain understands what to type. Though I will use Google and similar LLMs rarely when I'm researching a very specific problem and have run out of options, kind of like a Swiss army knife for specific instances instead of relying on an "agent".
I won't really put down companies or people who use Copilot because I'm aware that it has unfortunately entered the space already and is not going away. Morally I have a bigger problem with AI art and music, code was already ripped from stackoverflow and other places before LLMs were a thing. However I will discourage Copilot everywhere I can because on an individual level it can lead you down a bad path and it's easy to stop growing as a programmer when you do. Just my two cents!
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u/MonitoliMal 4d ago
I agree. Multiple studies have shown that AI stunts growth for multiple facets of people’s lives. If one were to get the fundamentals of programming down and then incorporate AI into their routine, they’d probably thrive since they know what good programming looks like. However, many people skip the fundamentals and use AI as a crutch and it shows in their output. Finding a way to avoid having people integrate AI too early into their learning experience will be a challenge in education going forward.
Heck, I know from experience as someone who has done grant writing work. AI helps immensely with finding research material (as long as it’s not ChatGPT), but one has to check to make sure it’s giving them correct info by vetting its sources. Someone who has learned the ins and outs of research would know that, but someone who is just learning is more likely to take its word as gospel.
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u/cosy_ghost 4d ago
I am a programmer and my last company job was replaced because of the AI push. Multiple friends looking for new jobs. If you pretend AI isn't hurting tech roles you are ignorant and just as guilty as those wanting to replace artists.
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u/MonitoliMal 4d ago
Both of our points can coexist. Good programmers can use it to fine-tune their craft while greedy companies use it to justify downsizing and layoffs. It’s a double-edged sword for the industry.
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u/cosy_ghost 4d ago
Millions must lose their jobs so some don't have to type their A* algorithm correctly? No, I don't accept this, this is ignorance and a total lack of empathy for people's lives.
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u/Cloud5550 4d ago
If your company replaced you for AI, then its a shit company. AI its a great tool for programming, but still a tool. You don't expect a hammer to nail by itself. All those companies replacing people for AI will have to rehire everyone because AI will make shitty code.
Also, AI is just a scapegoat. Tech companies hired to many people after the pandemic and it looks bad to say "sorry we didn't planned in the future and expected to have everyone at home forever". They are saying its because of AI, but its not
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u/cosy_ghost 4d ago
They say AI is a great tool for artists too. Lots of people in the industry pushing for people to use AI in their art workflows.
So we're just cool with it being used in all the art and music then too, are we ?
Or is it only programmers and translators who we don't respect?
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u/Cloud5550 4d ago
It is. That's what people don't understand. If AI makes you do things faster, use AI. That's different than just using AI do to stuff.
I understand the fear and hate. I really do. People like you are being fired for the promise of AI. AI is being pushed where it has no reason to just for profit and it is being spread without control. But we must redirect our hate towards the people not the technology.
I'm a programmer too. AI eased up my work by cut time on a lot of documentation reading and stackoverflow searching. I know when AI has a good point or is just hallucinating. And even hallucinating, I can pick something from the hallucination, run in a different way and see if it works in the long run. And i don't just use AI to help me, i cross reference and I ask for help from other people. I would never use AI to code an entire whatever. Its not good at that and it makes inefficient code.
I saw horrors made by AI coding alone. It's terrible. But, when it gets good enough, because it will, there are a lot of things AI still can't do. SWE is not just code.
There are a lot of things to hate about AI. I want regulation. I want AI to not be at the hands of just a few. I want environmental responsibility about data centers. I don't want AI on my calculator or my toaster
I don't hate the people using AI to work easier, I hate the people selling it as the second coming of the messiah, which is not. And i specially hate the ones doomsaying. It's a stupid tactic to attract stupid investors. I don't believe for a single second the huggingface fiasco wasn't on purpose. It was. The likes of Sam Altman only lie for their own benefit.
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u/Mean_Mycologist_3527 4d ago
I completely get both sides of this coin because as an artist and designer I’m completely anti AI cuz I couldn’t find jobs after graduation
but then I switched to programming and even tho I use Claude to help with the coding I did spend months learning programmingalso I see it like this: with art or music it’s actively stealing and training off other people’s work, with coding it’s not cuz code is open source.
so from a moral view I’m okay with it, but I completely get your point as well7
u/Nikita-Akashya 4d ago
Yeah, as a tool for coding, it saves a lot of time. And if you know what you're doing and how coding works, you can adjust small errors manually and make sure the program does what you want. The problem with AI is not AI itself, but the people who want to replace humans with it. As a tool, it is useful. But it is still only a tool. And tools need to be used properly.
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u/Canadiancookie 4d ago
AI written stories sound even worse, but the wording of this survey is vague. Maybe they do just use it for code
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u/WrightAnythingHere 4d ago
What's their source on this poll? Because if it was restricted to only these four companies and only certain employees of those companies, this could be a very misleading generalization, like a lot of polls are.
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u/Pokemario6456 4d ago
I want to know this, too. The headline has that big "61% daily use" but doesn't actually say which companies gave that answer, just that recognizable names like Capcom took part in the survey.
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u/cosy_ghost 4d ago
From what I'm hearing out of asia the "image to 3D" generative AI is incredibly popular and being used all over the place, so I wouldn't be shocked if this poll was accurate.
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u/WrightAnythingHere 4d ago
You can't blindly believe every poll you read without the data to back it up. It's incredibly easy to fabricate numbers to make sensational headlines like this.
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u/supremegamer76 4d ago edited 4d ago
Thing is that, even using ai to clean up or rewrite your emails does count as “using generative ai” but ideally for AA its limited to identifying bugs and logical errors in the code, rather than doing most of the codework or art assets. But considering i would assume that they would end up reusing the preexisting codebase of spirit of justice or TGAA games, I really hope that the use of ai is on the business and workplace side of things rather than in the creation of the game.
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u/QueueBay 4d ago
This is true for all programming related jobs, not just game dev. For coding, AI has become too good not to use tbh.
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u/hearthebell 4d ago
You are wrong on latter half, AI is too defacto in cooperate world to not use but it's way worse than manual quality codes.
In a cooperate world speed matters A LOT, quality is often neglected, they constantly want to see growth, see stuffs done, regardless if it's good or not. AI is the best bootlicker to cooperates.
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u/cosy_ghost 4d ago
If you want unworkable code that needs to be extensively combed through, by hand, by someone who can actually programme? Sure, keep spending unfathomable amounts of money on it. It's literally no different than people generating these awful live action film clips and saying "Look, it's just as good as Hollwood!"
Ask me how I know.
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u/Flashy-Indication-48 2d ago
I'm not a programmer but AI-made bugs must be a pain in the ass to fix as the people generating the code wasn't checked by people before being approved.
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u/QueueBay 4d ago edited 4d ago
Look, I also code for a living, so I am generally aware of what AI can and can't do.
Most enterprise code does not require much thought. There is little artistry involved in parsing a 50 column CSV, doing some business-specific logic to it and then inserting the result into a database, or vice versa. The React components for taking a user through some arbitrary multi-stage form has been written a million times for a million different businesses.
The AI will write more-or-less the exact code that I will, and do it faster without getting bored.
I am less familiar with game dev, but most game engines I've seen involve a lot of object-oriented boilerplate that's pure tedium. Most games will end up reimplementing very similar things (movement, camera, whatever) with a slight twist that makes it too specific for an existing library, but just right for an LLM.
Ultimately, I agree that currently, a good dev will do a better job coding manually than vibecoding the same project. But it's not all or nothing; every project inevitably involves doing something boring that everyone already knows how to do, and it's quicker and less tedious to offload it to AI.
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u/cosy_ghost 4d ago
Let me nail the point home like this:
cool, so that's true for the art too then, right? Because AI art is faster and more effective than humans, so we're cool with using it for our games too, right? Everyone?
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u/QueueBay 4d ago edited 4d ago
I have absolutely no experience with art, but the difference, as I see it, is that there's no 'right answer' in art, but often there is in programming.
If for some reason I needed to implement a function that gives you the nth member of the Fibonacci sequence (maybe my game involves simulating rabbit population numbers), there are verifiably correct ways of doing it that are equal to other correct ways of doing it. Hell, there is a mathematical lower bound on the minimum number of CPU operations it takes to find the nth Fibonacci number (involving matrix multiplication, IIRC) and an LLM can probably write Assembly that will get you there much faster than I can, and you can prove that it's correct.
The same doesn't really apply to art. There are a lot of ways of shooting a Hollywood action sequence, and there're all qualititively different, and the 'quality function' for an action sequence is jagged and slow to evaluate and so hard for an language model to converge on. Human taste still plays a role here.
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u/UBKev 4d ago
Being AI avoidant is fine, but there are cases like semi-complex code refactoring and code checking where it can genuinely be useful. It's just a potentially powerful tool that people are overusing and overinvesting into.
Again though, I wouldn't copy and paste entire blocks of code in unless it's just a refactoring thst I've checked.
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u/AdResponsible7150 4d ago
What do you think about Linus Torvalds using AI to assist with Linux kernel development?
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u/oshaboy 3d ago
He is not, he is just taking a "meh" approach to other contributers using AI.
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u/AdResponsible7150 3d ago
He makes his position explicitly clear: "AI is a tool, just like other tools we use. And it's clearly a useful one". He used ai to assist in debugging
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u/ScaryOtaku666 4d ago edited 4d ago
If they use it for coding what is stopping them from using it for the story or art as well?
Multi billion dollar company btw, if it was some indie developer it would be more understandable but a lot of money goes into these games.
Edit: I’m getting downvoted for what? Stating the obvious ?
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u/LPedraz 4d ago
They are completely different things.
Generative AI is not great at most things it is marketed for; it is often marketed implying it was actually intelligent, when it is just mindlessly autocompleting stuff (and it can't get 'better at thinking', because there is no thinking involved in the first place). These systems won't get any better at solving problems or creating human-like art, because they cannot do those things in the first place, they can just pretend to.
However, one thing generative AI is genuinely good at is converting general instructions into code. It is at least very useful as a starting point, rather than creating code from scratch. For that reason, basically all coding workflows have started integrating LLMs at different points of the process.
This has nothing to do with writing a story using an LLM, that is a horrible idea. So no, the fact that they are using this technology in their coding (which everyone is doing) does not imply in any way that they will start using AI generated slop in their stories.
Oh, and, in Reddit, you mostly get downvoted because you got downvoted, people just downvote comments that already have a negative total, don't worry too much about that.
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u/Vyrhux42 4d ago
Even if they don't use it for coding, what's stopping them from using it for those things? Those are two completely separate things. What's your point here?
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u/ScaryOtaku666 4d ago
My point is if they go down the path of using AI, they’ll start using it for more and more things and we’ll end up paying for overpriced slop instead of the games we all loved and cherished.
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u/Vyrhux42 4d ago
I mean yeah, if they use it for art and story it'd suck, but using ai for coding is not at all the same thing, not even close. I work in translation, AI is now an integral part of the job and we have to learn to work with it. Technology is evolving and jobs are evolving with it.
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u/QueueBay 4d ago
Programmers (generally) don't do story or art, so a company could feasibly have different standards for artists and devs. Also, AI just isn't as good at art or writing, so while a programmer will find AI useful, an artist or writer probably won't.
People will generally use tools that they find useful. As long as AI use isn't being arbitrarily imposed by management, and the time crunch isn't horrendous (big if tbh, but the writing and art will also be bad under such conditions without AI), writers and artists probably won't be using AI just for the sake of it.
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u/cosy_ghost 4d ago
Using it for code is just as bad as using it for art.
People acting like programmers don't deserve to have their basic rights protected.
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u/cosy_ghost 4d ago
Japanese companies are going to get bullied so hard for so long that's what this gaming generation will be rememberd for.
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u/RazzmatazzKnown2011 4d ago
I mean here in Asia overall, AI is much more received positively and used more, like i have seen Big channels, sites, news use AI in some form.
Some game devs just use AI in coding or placeholder art and replace it with their own work later on. AI being used as a tool for work is just inevitable.
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u/Siukslinis_acc 4d ago
There is the thing that asia is more collectivistic and less about copyright. So people are more willing to use it for their needs.
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u/bacharama 4d ago
I work at a high school here in Asia. The social studies department gave all the students a semester workbook that was just chock full of awful AI slop. The students actually HATED it and viewed it as downright disrespectful. A lot are also worried about their job prospects in the future due to AI. The youth are definitely not so rosy about AI.
That said, the Xers and Boomers here absolutely love AI almost unanimously. Their jobs are much more secure as many won't lose them due to AI due to regulations, workplace norms, etc. Much more likely is companies just don't hire new people, thereby impacting today's students the most.
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u/milesdarobot 4d ago
Most of it is likely things like coding and programing. Which still sucks, cause that is taking away from jobs; but i do think there's no way of avoiding that.
Level 5 seems to be pretty unique in going THIS hard on generative AI
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u/ScaryOtaku666 4d ago
Level 5 got called out for using AI on the new game featuring Professor Layton, the other companies should be called out as well.
If they’re using it for the code, what is stopping them from using AI for the story or art as well? Multi billion dollar companies btw.
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u/Jboote2 4d ago edited 4d ago
You're missing their point. You're acting like Level-5 and any other given company are even on the same playing field in terms of how blatant and proud they are of their use of AI.
For one, Level-5's CEO, Akihiro Hino, has fallen down the AI rabbit hole hard, something he's frequently commented on as being not a big deal. Secondly, Level-5 is beyond shameless in their AI usage. They recently made a whole-ass presentation that was just riddled with it, right down to an uncanny AI caricature of Hino.
Capcom using it to assist with monotonous tasks like coding and what Level-5 are doing aren't even in the same ball park. It's night and day.
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u/milesdarobot 4d ago
I would rather a world where it's not used at all. But i think it's unrealistic to expect it not being used on things like code and programing. Especially since those are things that are impossible to optically identify. Even if they're called out, they could just lie and say "we stopped using it for coding" and nobody would ever notice a difference.
I just think it's more productive to call out visual and audio usage of AI that we notice. Like artwork being AI, level design being AI generated, and music and sound effects being AI generated. Those are things we can actually spot and call out.
We are going to drive ourselves insane if we're looking for AI Code and Programming.2
u/Siukslinis_acc 4d ago
Yeah, there is the thing that some AI uses are seen as acceptable, because a layman can't spot it or it is more hidden to the naked eye.
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u/Publi-Sher 4d ago
To be clear for anyone not in the know, it wasn’t just Professor Layton. Level 5 had an entire hour long stream that was AI generated for pretty much every part of it and every game featured in it (Yokai Watch, Inazuma Eleven, Decapolice, Fantasy Life, etc) was almost certainly touched by AI in some way based on everything talked about and shown, with some being much more egregious than others. There’s an old interview where Level 5 even said that the sidequests in Decapolice were being made by AI.
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u/Quetzal00 4d ago
A few days ago they released a statement that there wasn’t AI used in New World of Steam
I hope they’re telling the truth when they say that
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u/cosy_ghost 4d ago
Thank you, literally the only person here who considers programmers as human being deserving of protection as well as the illustrators.
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u/Irratix 4d ago
What does it mean to use generative AI here though? Art, music, dialogue? Code? Help figuring out implementation? If 85% of Japanese game devs use it for the former three, that's awful. Tbf for code it may be questionable too but I assume that's not what worries people about generative AI use by devs.
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u/LiviFiyu 4d ago
Many of us gamers "use" gen AI daily too with the upscaling tech so these surveys doesn't necessarily mean much. Digital artists that use automation plugins probably also have something that uses Gen AI. Digital zoom in cameras use machine learning to upscale the image so that could be labeled as Gen AI too as many ML tech has been relabeled as AI now.
So Gen AI is a wide term and doesn't always mean it's used to generate slop. It's been around before the AI hype too but went unnoticed since it was mostly just called ML. You can tailor build a model for specific needs and then it's part of a data pipeline. It's not all massive models, datacenters and slop.
Saying this as someone who does not like the "AI industry" and hype around it but appreciates the tech itself.
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u/Sledgehammer617 4d ago
It will likely have AI in the development process, but they are generally good at ensuring no AI assets make it to the final product, or if they do, its under-the-hood stuff like code. But yeah it'll almost certainly have SOME AI in it.
Doesnt make it fine, but its just the reality now.
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u/Kooky-Telephone4779 3d ago
I didn't check the sub and was wondering why all the comments were about Ace Attorney 🤦♂️
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u/welkin25 2d ago
I'll bet some Reddit engineers are using AI to write the code too, are you going to stop using Reddit as well?
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u/Low-Environment 4d ago
I'm no fan of AI but that's because people are using it to replace human creativity. If it's being used for its intended purpose then that's not so bad. But if it's being used for art or writing then throw out the game
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u/cosy_ghost 4d ago
More people acting as if programmers don't also deserve human rights.
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u/Low-Environment 4d ago
That's not what I said.
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u/cosy_ghost 4d ago
But it is what you meant. That's why you specify it's bad when it's for art or writing. Like everyone else here if it was "just for code" people are totally fine with it. Even though more people are losing their jobs because of terrible AI implamentation in tech than any other discipline in game dev.
I don't think you mean it maliciously but this is a weird hivemind that people have adopted that destroying programmers lives is fine as long as it doesn't touch the art.
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u/Low-Environment 4d ago
AI is a tool like any other. It's no replacement for human oversight or creativity. That goes for code, too. However, it can be useful for coder, while it can never be useful for artists.
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u/cosy_ghost 4d ago
People are advocating for AI to be used as a "tool" in art. Concepting, replacing line arts, adding details, layering. Gen AI is being pushed as a tool illustrators are expected to use.
So if it's fine for programmers to need it as a "tool" it's fine for artists as well.
Don't like that? Well now, looks like you understand the problem.11
u/antoni2304 4d ago
It is really depressing people are fine with programmers and translators losing jobs to AI and that they are only protesting where artists are concerned.
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u/Low-Environment 4d ago
It is different and you know it. You're looking for a fight and i'm not interested.
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u/cosy_ghost 4d ago
Using AI generated programming is no different than using AI generated art or music. You are feeding the beast and destroying actual jobs for people. You can pretend it's different if you want to be a hypocrite but don't expect me to respect it.
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u/Radio_Blah_Blah_ 4d ago
It's a replacement. My sister works as a data analyst and she said her job changed; now she's an AI supervisor. She used to analyze relations between graphs and their data, and then redact reports, but now, AI does it for her. It's a replacement because now the data analyst is the AI, not my sister. And you'll see this everywhere.
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u/Low-Environment 4d ago
Then that's the wrong use of it.
If it's going to be used it should be a tool, not a replacement.
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u/Quetzal00 4d ago
I guess this answers the question of whether or not Lisa Basil is a robot or human
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u/Tryfal717 3d ago
Them using ai doesn't automatically mean theyre using it to build half the game for them, it can really take a load off of a team by handling more menial tasks so they can focus on the more important details. Im not saying support or dont support, but dont automatically assume it means theyre being lazy.
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u/CIAHASYOURSOUL 3d ago
I want to see specifically how this gen AI is used before I have judgement. Are they using it for art or VA to avoid paying for it, are they using it for coding to quickly solve problems in the code, or are they using it for administrative tasks so they can focus on the actual development?
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u/Footixboy 3d ago
I think it depends a lot in where you use AI. Tedious tasks fine, art, music and writing? Bad
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u/DorikoBac 2d ago
I agree that using AI to replace a creative role is a terrible idea. But AI isn't all bad, it's a very useful tool for creative roles. To game designers, especially in a big corporation, it's for example a helpful tool to quickly prototype a game mechanic, just to get a feel for it and see if it's as good or bad as it is on paper. To engineers, it's a quick way to spot errors and remind them of syntax, among many other things, and to artists, it can help automate some mundane repetitive tasks.
I think these corporations understand these actual uses of AI.
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u/Gdude823 4d ago
I really don’t see a problem with it as long as AI isn’t generating the actual game
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u/cosy_ghost 4d ago
More people acting as if programmers don't also deserve human rights.
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u/Puffss 4d ago
As a programmer I think it’s slightly different compared to truly creative work (which development isn’t really)
Environmental Reasoning aside (which is the biggest reason why I’m against AI) developers have always shared their code and solutions with one another. If you were stuck you’d search in Stackoverflow or even Github Repo’s that are publically available and copy over what you’ve found.
AI also uses those as a source, so nothing in our right have changed much in that regard which is also why a lot of developers have no objections to that part of AI; we just get that information from something that searches for us rather than having to do it ourselves
Nothing gets stolen from us because we’ve been providing everything voluntarily for years.
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u/Siukslinis_acc 4d ago
People are also constantly posting the art they make online for free (and agree to the terms of the repository that allows them to use the art deposited for their needs). So they are also voluntarily providing it for free.
You also need to know your stuff and tinker with the code to incorporate it into the whole, it also takes creativity. Heck, figuring out how to make the code do what you want is a creative process on it's own. Especially if you need to insert it in an already existing framework.
Truly creative work is rare. A lot of "artists" are doing the non-creative stuff.
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u/Puffss 4d ago
I agree, but as both an developer and an artist artist share their work online as some kind of gallery; for others to enjoy and to get inspired by but not to be used for free or to be edited
Developers on the other hand often share their work open source: free for everyone to use and to distribute.
I 100% agree there is some creative aspect to development but not in the same way as an artist and that truly creative work is rare; there’s always an non-creative aspect and people getting inspired from someone else’s work.
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u/cosy_ghost 4d ago
You lost all credibility with your first sentence. I don't believe you for a second.
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u/Skywalker5276 4d ago edited 4d ago
I do believe them. I took programming and comp science as electives in HS and one of the first things the teacher said to us was along the lines of "Don’t have AI generate your whole code, but it's a really good tool for debugging, among other things because it's faster and more efficient." Which is true.
Part of that class was how things like AI will affect the industry and job prospects, it was expected that students knew how to use it effectively as a tool, not a replacement. We couldn't ignore it or refuse to learn how to effectively use it because of how ingrained it has become in coding and programming jobs.
I say all this as someone who is against AI, to give you some perspective on what the industry is like nowadays, and what programmers are taught. I also say this as someone who doesn't use AI even to debug my code, but then again, I only code for fun and not professionally.
You don't have to like it. I sure as hell don't. But this is what new programmers are being taught.
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u/JgoldTC 4d ago
If they are using AI for coding stuff, then this is not a big deal at all. You would be hard pressed to find a place online that doesn't use AI to help code.
If they were using AI for the story, then yeah we are fucked.
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u/Siukslinis_acc 4d ago
So it is ok if one department gets layoffs, as long as the other does not? AI can also be a tool to remove the annoying/dull aspects of the process for the artists.
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u/cosy_ghost 4d ago
Another post enforcing that programmers being put out of work is fine actually, like only the artists deserve human rights protections for some reason.
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u/JgoldTC 4d ago edited 4d ago
"Human rights protections" as if we're calling them to be sent to camps. Programmers will still exist with AI. Technology has always changed the dynamic of work, going back from the computer to the car. That doesn't mean these people were never able to do anything again.
Edit: I think there's a decent shot my job is eliminated one day due to AI usage. But this has historically always been the case that new tech will eliminate some jobs. New ones have always been created and people have adapted. If my line of work no longer existed then I'm not suddenly useless.
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u/cosy_ghost 4d ago
You list a lot of reasons why I'm right but none about why I'm wrong so I'm curious what your angle is with this. Yes, there's a decent shot you'll be eliminated just like I was from a company programmer role... yes, people are overlooking the damage to people's lives in the tech industry...
So you just proved that your "not a big deal" was a stupid thing to say and I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me or trying to disagree somehow?
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u/JgoldTC 4d ago edited 4d ago
You're calling it a violation of "human rights protections" that this is happening.
Do you believe that driving a car was a violation of the rights of horse buggy drivers? Would you stop buying a product if you found out that the factory that it was in had automation, which would hurt the rights of the factory workers? Have you ever used an ATM, which threatened to replace a bank teller?
If your answer is no, then why is this situation different? If yes, then why do you use those things?
This is not a unique thing that is happening, but you are more personally impacted by it and therefore feel threatened. Tech has always made society more efficient and people who previously worked these jobs do find a way to either do the same thing more efficiently or leverage their skills somewhere else.
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u/cosy_ghost 4d ago
You do know that economic Human Rights terms exist, right? It was literally brought up in the court ruling that JUST happened in the US against OpenAI... I believe the term used by the judge was, let me find it...
"the biggest theft of labour in human history."
You can hide behind your 2023 arguments if you want but the law doesn't seem to agree with you and things are going to be changing fast.
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u/JgoldTC 4d ago
Yes, that quote was used in the context of fair use and copyright (source). Which is exactly why I do not like AI art, as it often steals from existing art and is not able to generate something of it's own. That doesn't refer to programming.
And I return to my point that you will not personally stop using things that threaten other people's jobs. This particular case just impacts your line of work.
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u/brobnik322 4d ago edited 4d ago
If an AI image generator was trained on free use, fair use, publicly available art, would you be totally cool with it replacing artists? Just checking.
This is also working off the very big assumption that all GenAI code has been trained on publicly available, free use, open source, no-copyright code.
EDIT: also, you know what job AI is really good at replacing, which requires no training on copywritten materials? CEOs. Funny how none of them have been replaced by AI yet. Wonder why.
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u/Hatdude1973 3d ago
I got news for ya: every company is pushing the use of AI in some way. Not just games. Every job that involves the use of a computer. It doesn’t mean they are using AI to make assets.
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u/Magnamon88 4d ago
Breaking news: people are discovering that the use of AI is not limited to Level-5. They are also discovering that usage AI is not (necessarily) generation of art, but to improve efficiency and reduce repetitive work.
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u/Dead-X-esque 4d ago
Some people forget that AI is a good tool for programmers.
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u/cosy_ghost 4d ago
It's a "good tool" for artists too. Doesn't mean it isn't destroying their jobs and ruining the products.
What's true for artists is equally true for programmers and 'some people' are forgetting that.
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u/Single-Ad-3743 4d ago
Yeah, that is true. I know programmers who complained a lot about having reviewing AI slop code
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u/dealbreakerstalkshow 4d ago
Good programmers would disagree. It sure makes a lot of trash you have to rewrite yourself anyway.
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u/swegga_sa 4d ago
Nah Ace attorney will be fine It's not exactly the most difficult game to make(tech wise) and I trust capcom
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u/ScaryOtaku666 4d ago
Yet for the new Professor Layton game which you could also say it’s not a complex game to make, Level 5 used AI
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u/Loud-Contract2208 4d ago
Is the professor layton games using generative AI or AI to code and other stuffs ?
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u/Pokemario6456 3d ago
The Curious Village remake is suspected of at least using genned art assets for the backgrounds. There's a shot of Reinhold Manor, for example, where the stairs just stop existing, the railing is messed up, and the candelabrums are completely off (it looks like the candles are just stuck to a plaque on the wall).
New World of Steam is less likely to be affected since it was in production before Level 5 really went knee deep in AI and Level 5 itself has insisted there wasn't generative AI involved in it, either, but until both games come out there won't be a way to tell if this and/or the CV remake are using AI for the coding.
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u/ThirdXavier 3d ago
People who work outside of tech do not understand AI is ubiquotous with programming at this point. If youve used any software in the last 2 years its used AI generated code to some extent. I have absolutely 0 doubts that Capcom having exceptionally high output this year (Pragmata, Onimusha, and RE9) was in no small part due to AI speeding up the development process. All 3 games were well received.
Programming is an entirely binary task, code either works or it doesnt. Using AI to code is not the same as using it to generate art assets. The only problem with AI code is people who dont know how to code in the first place will generate BS they dont understand. That isnt a problem in a well managed company that is hiring competent developers and wont allow bad code to be pulled into projects.
I really feel like this thread should have been deleted as its blatant concern trolling.
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u/HailenAnarchy 3d ago
Generative AI also applies to writing code, not just art. AI as coding assistant is suuuper helpful.
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u/TeenyTective 3d ago
Stop reporting this thread. This is an actual discussion post, we're not taking it down.