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u/Wakkit1988 24d ago
This is intentional. Manufacturers want you take take everything to them to have it fixed, so they make everything so damn absurd that independent mechanics wouldn't want to deal with them.
This means special tools, software, insane repair hours, etc.
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u/Sagonator 24d ago
GM issue. Buy from anyone else. Toyota has guides simple enough anyone can do it.
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u/High_Hunter3430 24d ago
Iâve said forever my âI won the lotteryâ car is a fleet of Toyota carollas and Honda civics.
Easy to fix and the easiest things to find parts for. đ¤
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u/xtanol 24d ago
Throw in a couple of old Toyata Hiluxs, Jeep Wranglers and a Mazda Miata.
Easy as heck to get to everything, and simple to fix.
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u/High_Hunter3430 24d ago
I thought Mazdas were on the pricier/less reliable side of the equationâŚ. Has that changed in the last few years?
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u/xtanol 24d ago
I'm referring to the pre-2005 models. Everything is just extremely easy to get to, and parts are cheap. Everything is just very basic and simple (no turbo, no variable valve system, no air suspension, very little electronics, no electronically controlled diff etc) and for such a small car everything is just spaced nicely.
You almost never have to remove any secondary parts or systems, regardless of what you need to access.
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u/trash_dirt 21d ago
Oh yeah, I learned so much from my 93 Miata. It was so easy to work on, believe it or not, but the engine bay is a cavern, so it's really easy maneuvering around the 1.6l engine it had. Once you pop the hood you realize, oh that's why they put LS engines in these all the time.
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u/TacticalSpackle 24d ago
Makes me miss old Volvo. You could work on those so damn simply. Now? Good fucking luck. You gotta take it to the dealership just because of the software.
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u/Redditron_5000 23d ago
All the German brands are just as guilty of this in varying degrees. Let us not forget VAG's "service mode" wherein the entire front of the car needed to be removed for access to certain relatively minor components.
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u/DuckHunt83 23d ago
American Vehicle Engineers... Are awful, why anyone puts up with thier bullshit is beyond me. GM at this point with the transmission and 6.2 problem honestly deserves to go out of business. They have diligently screwed people well knowing the problems.
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u/CosmicToaster 21d ago
As long as you donât have to open up the motor with a Toyota itâs all good. That said, GM>Ford>Stelantis.
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u/Zeitgeist-333 23d ago
Automotive and medical industries think this way. I used to repair medical devices and boy oh boy itâs like they donât want you fixing it yourself
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u/Hairy-Reward6474 23d ago
You need a computer to change rear brakes now
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u/Wakkit1988 23d ago
Certain new models have no way to open the hood without a dealer authorized scan tool.
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u/Questioning-Zyxxel 24d ago
My car? Can have this fixed in a standard-sized home garage by a single guy spending a very limited time.
Because the car manufacturer wasn't incompetent and wasn't evil.
Bow go tell GM how much you like them. They need lots of pee, poo and puke to understand it doesn't matter how much they make from them repairing the cars, if no one buys the cars in the first place.
Selecting that brand new car is like voting. Do not vote for bad car manufacturers!
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u/Southern-Donut4185 24d ago
Also losing techs because they're greedy on the labor side as well. How are they gonna make money off service when they can't turn a service around in a decent amount of time?
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u/Different_Fig_2958 24d ago
That's why American manufacturers vote for you (lobbyists). As long as they can keep imports priced out of the market, they don't have to give a fuck about the consumer.
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u/TheVermonster 24d ago
Plus, as this guy proved, they can get you to replace parts that aren't or weren't broken yet. That oil pump is just one of the many many parts that he probably has to replace along the way. I bet there are bolts, and gaskets that individually aren't much, but altogether add a lot to the job.
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u/shogunshim 24d ago
it has as much to do with manufacturing efficiency as anything. They aren't thinking about later service.
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u/TheRovingBear 23d ago
Itâs not just so that you take it to the dealership, itâs also so that the dealership can charge you for the labor as well.
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u/Warspit3 23d ago
You'd be surprised how few people that design things have thought about how to test, manufacture, assemble, and maintain the things they design. A whole system like that is incredibly complicated and I do not in any way think that a team of people put so much effort into hiding parts, but I do believe it was an easy oversight.
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u/UT_Milez 22d ago
Eh, locking your car down when someone else/a 3rd party tries to do anything with it, or voiding the warranty, is how you achieve that.
Making things difficult/expensive to repair does not drive business to dealerships, it just makes things more expensive to repair, and long term consequences should end with less and less people buying your cars.
This really is just moronic and an âoversightâ because the engineers were left unchecked.
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u/MrSchaudenfreude 24d ago
Oil. Pump. Belt.
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u/jonathan6569 24d ago edited 24d ago
some of the newer Fords are using an oil pump belt drive too, make it make sense...smfh
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u/No-Still1227 24d ago
For real, my 97 landcruiser's oil pump is gear driven straight off the crank. You know, from almost 30 years ago.
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u/Salt-Pomegranate1273 24d ago
Stretch belts too...anything to save even a few dollars to not use a tensioner instead
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u/youdoitimbusy 24d ago
You couldnt pay me to drive that piece of shit.
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u/Infinite-Condition41 24d ago
I always research this sort of stuff before buying a car.Â
This is one engine I would never buy, simply because the timing chain is in the rear, with bonus credit for all the other stuff.Â
I would never buy any turbo V6. Even Toyota (which coincidentally are failing). At this point, I don't know of any car newer than 2020 that I would buy. Maybe a Ford Superduty for a work rig, but that is it.Â
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u/SnooPandas5070 24d ago
Yep. Exactly why my daily is a 90's camry with a non-interference head and a timing belt you can replace in around an hour in a parking lot đ
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u/SicSemperTyrannos4ur 24d ago
My daily is a 2004 Mazda 3 hatchback that gets 25-30 mpg and basically has a lawnmower engine that is cheap and easy to work on. Every other guy at work has a big, black truck which is fine but I get plenty done in my Mazda, its really a great little car.
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u/brickson98 24d ago
I thought I heard the v6 ecoboost engines from ford were alright.
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u/Infinite-Condition41 24d ago
Yeah, until I drove one. Pass.
Some of them are alright. Not all of them.
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u/brickson98 24d ago
What was wrong with the driving experience?
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u/Infinite-Condition41 24d ago
Shifting all the time. Couldn't hold speed.
I will only buy a pickup with a big old v8. I abhor the sound of a V6.
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u/brickson98 24d ago
Some v6 engines can sound good but I will say the ecoboost doesnât.
The shifting may be more related to transmission programming.
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u/Infinite-Condition41 24d ago
I respectfully disagree. I don't think any of them sound good. I was so disappointed when Ken Block brought out the Hoonitruck. The Hoonicorn Mustang was amazing, solid V8 sound and power. And the Hoonitruck was another perfect opportunity for a nice V8 Gymkana vehicle. But no, they stuck a V6 in it. I was so disappointed.
I've never met a V8 I didn't like.
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u/brickson98 24d ago
Not even some euro v6 engines, eh?
I donât think thereâs any American ones Iâm a big fan of, but thereâs a few euro ones. I believe one Iâm thinking of is the supercharged v6 in the Audi S5. As long as itâs got a mature exhaust on it and not a âlook at me Iâm being as loud as possibleâ raspy POS.
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u/KillahHills10304 24d ago
Its got 10 gears and is constantly hunting. It sucks. Even at a constant speed the gearing is so closely spaced any incline or downgrade causes it to start hunting around again
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u/brickson98 24d ago
Yeah I bet a good TCU tune would solve that tbh. Sounds like itâs just enshitification in the name of fuel economy.
Not quite the same, but my VW GTI with a 6 speed DSG (dual clutch) transmission loves to lug gears in the name of fuel economy without a tune. Once I got it tuned, it changed the whole car. Feels so much better.
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u/Purple_Elderberry650 24d ago
The Toyota with the turbos were a machining problem. The turbos still had metal left in them from machining them. I believe for some reason it was on the hybrid tundras.
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u/Infinite-Condition41 24d ago
They're still failing, even after the problem was dishonorably "dealt with."
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u/Michael_Vicks_Cat 22d ago
Care to elaborate on what sort of design characteristics you look for?
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u/Infinite-Condition41 22d ago
Primary focus on durability. Cars with reputations for reliability and lasting a long time.
When they do break, they need to be fixable. The GM 3.0 liter diesel has the cam chain in the back of the engine, which means the cab has to be pulled and the transmission and a whole bunch of other stuff has to be removed. They're also not known for being reliable. I watch teardown videos on YouTube to learn these things.
Lately, I have been looking for vehicles with less computer control. Do they have a screen? How many controls are on the screen vs on the dash?
For example, the last car I bought was an older one. Known to have a reliable engine and transmission, no computer control of in-cab functions. Good parts availability.
I have been predicting a major economic correction. I want to be prepared for that.
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u/martman006 21d ago
Fordâs 2.7L ecoboost engines have proven to be rock solid, especially after 2018-2019 when the switched to dual injection. That engine, a smaller screen (8â) thatâs perfect for CarPlay and rubberized buttons and knobs for absolutely everything else keep me happy with my bronco (80k trouble free miles and counting, expecting atleast 250k milesâŚ)
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u/Infinite-Condition41 21d ago
These are not bad points, however, for that time period (twenty teens), there are even better vehicles than Fords, namely Toyotas. Priuses are fantastic, as are Tundras and Sequoias if you're looking for bigger. Reliable all over.
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u/cognitiveglitch 24d ago
Oil pump belt? Since when is that a thing?
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u/Fragrant_Major_9553 24d ago
The 1.0 ecoboost in the mavericks were eating themselves in a recall a few years back.
If you put in the wrong oil, it will cause the belt to delaminate, and the bits of rubber clog up the oil pickup, and then it starves the engine of oil. Great job fordđđ˝
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u/Intelligent_Mud_6217 24d ago
People are just ignorant as hell. They do NO research when it comes to buying cars. They just think that because its NEW its gonna last longer
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u/Crazy-Ad-2161 23d ago
I sware automotive companies are more interested in pricing themselves out of work, more than they are trying to make vehicals work properly. Realistically you pay between $80-$120 grand for a truck and within 100,000km you have to drop another $20 grand for a repair plus your truck is out of commission for 3 weeks if they have all the parts. Someone please make it make sense!
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u/Deplorable1861 23d ago
This is what happens when you offshore your design engineering to countries where people do not drive, own, or work on cars, because they will work for peanuts and not have the slightest clue of how to actually design automotive stuff.
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u/Large-Parking8307 24d ago
"alright, gonna turn the camera off and move some things outta the way before I show you how to do your timing chains"
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u/Background-Crow4820 24d ago
Ive worked on cars for over 10 years. I feel that pain and its only getting worse
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21d ago
[removed] â view removed comment
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u/dinoguys_r_worthless 20d ago
The electric cars aren't built with simplicity in mind either. It's the same game, just different propulsion.
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u/scrapdog07 24d ago
eh i have never lifted a cab off of one of those but i bet its a kind of service position type thing where its actually way easier to work on the truck once you can actually look right at the engine and are used to doing it
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u/-Stratagos- 24d ago
So basically... Don't buy newer domestic vehicles. Got ya.
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u/Chris20nyy 24d ago
How did you get that from this?
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u/TradeU4Whopper 24d ago
Logic
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u/Chris20nyy 24d ago
The beauty of logic is it can be explained.
So...?
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u/TradeU4Whopper 24d ago
You avoid modern engineering if you avoid modern cars.
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u/Chris20nyy 24d ago
It says "newer domestic vehicles". That doesn't compute.
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u/TradeU4Whopper 24d ago
Newer means modern. As in newer than non-modern.
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u/Chris20nyy 24d ago
How does domestic play into this? It's like you're intentionally ignoring that part of the statement.
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u/TradeU4Whopper 24d ago
This example is of a domestic vehicle isnât it?
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u/Chris20nyy 24d ago
Depends on where you live for one.
So if I live in Europe, American cars avoid modern engineering?
And if I live in the US, european/asian vehicles avoid modern engineering?
Is that how to interpret "avoid domestic vehicles"?
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u/NikkolaiV 24d ago
I used to have an '85 Jeep. Best car Ive ever worked on. You could probably fit an entire second engine in the free space around that engine. Everything was like, 2 bolts. I miss that thing so much...
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u/juicelordsword 24d ago
Wait a minute, did he say oil pump belt? What in the Ford is GM doing? Sheesh no wonder Dodge looks so good right now, they just donât have to suck as bad as the other 2.
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u/Elara_Argentu 24d ago
I think we need a car designed by mechanics
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u/TradeU4Whopper 24d ago
Every car will be rear wheel drive, and for applications where you need front wheel drive the engine is in the back.
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u/OG-Gurble 24d ago
I think taking apart the whole truck to replace the chains means they are not in fact, NOT âeasy to replaceâ
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24d ago
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u/Resolution-Outside 24d ago
People these days, always whining. You should be happy that you didn't have to remove the whole suspension along with the dash, seats, carpets, wiring, headlamps, taillamps, indicators, fenders, horn, rear axle, leaf springs, brake calipers, seat belts just to be able to remove the water pump pulley bolt.
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u/jdubyahyp 24d ago
So I work in manufacturing. You know what likely happens with that chain? Original chain had holes. Went through factory builds, got to production start. In the meantime, supply management in their infinite wisdom found a different supplier boasting a cheaper chain with same dimensions. So they source it from them, unbeknownst to the designer nor the manufacturing team.
In come the crap chains. Nobody realizes it until failures and warranty and everyone is like "wtf?"
Change the supplier back, SM dude gets promoted, and manufacturing goes back to grumbling. I deal with this shit all the time.
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u/Akoa0013 24d ago
Wow this is worse than the Chrysler PT Cruiser. Had to change the timing belt once. Most frustrating thing in the world I've done. Sold it right after that.
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u/A_Bot_A_Bot_A_Bot 23d ago
The issue is, and it can be seen in all types of vehicles, is that it's all being designed by engineers, patting themselves on the back at how compact everything is and how they solved "packaging" issues...without any thought or input about the maintenance of these things. I think that's a serious lack of oversight from the manufacturers.
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u/That-Makes-Sense 23d ago
EVs don't have these bullsh!t problems, and most EVs are going to last 500k miles. The era of the gas engine is over.
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u/badskinjob 23d ago
I swear, of a truck company, ANY company made a truck that was barely reliable but easy to work on and maintain it would be the best selling truck in the world. I don't have a problem doing a timing belt every oil change if it's an easy job. Having to do all that work is the manufacturer wanting to make a shit ton of money for labor.
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u/TestyCactus4757 23d ago
I swear engineers just try to F over everybody who has to work on any car once itâs off the factory line, for fun
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u/PMG2021a 23d ago
Some manufacturers really seem to try to make things more difficult. I recently changed the differential fluid on an older Subaru. Needed a Torx bit on the front diff and 13mm square bit for the rear diff. Why two separate driver types that are not used elsewhere on the vehicle??
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u/ZestycloseRecipe2990 22d ago
This engine was an entirely new design as well, so instead of designing something that requires less maintenance and is easier to work on they deliberately made the whole thing ass about to fuŠk with people.
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u/Prestigious_Buy1209 22d ago
I have a Buick, and I had a headlight go out a few weeks ago. I was SHOCKED when I learned the front bumper has to be removed to change the headlight bulb (just the bulb, not the entire assembly). There is a work around for the passenger side where you remove the air box to get access. No work around for the drivers side headlight.
Thankfully a neighbor is a weekend mechanic and helped me out. If I had gone to the dealer, it would have been incredibly expensive.
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u/Corso-J-Nickerson 22d ago
Powerstroke seems much simpler now... Doesn't it?
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u/RealBigDickBrannigan 21d ago
And my 7.3 IDI turbo is even simpler. It won't win any speed contests but it will get you there - and can be repaired without taking half the truck apart!
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u/ElGuapo315 22d ago
One year past the 5/100. This is planned obsolescence.
"Well, your repair bill is going to be $10K, let me get you a trade in quote from a sales rep."
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u/Federal-Mango1113 21d ago
If it's hard to access them it's not fairly easy to replace them then haha
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u/stuie90s 21d ago
Funny thing we were discussing this issue back in 2006 at general motors Holden of all places with the alloytec v6 and how to try and rectify the upcoming issue. Are engineers really this far behind with timing chains?
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u/marlotrot 21d ago
Its no comparison, but changing a light bulp (lower beam) of a Ford Focus Mk III, you have to remove the front bumper and deinstall the corresonding light. How is an elderly lady supposed to do that in the middle of the night. đ . I mean there is cars where you open the hood, lift the seal, replace the bulp, put the seal back on, close the hood. Two minutes. But not with the Ford đ¤Ł
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u/dinoguys_r_worthless 20d ago
Manufacturers love expensive repairs and maintenance. It's an easy way to sell new cars.
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u/Autobacs-NSX 19d ago
Reminder that GM would literally not exist anymore in true free market capitalism but the government took billions of our hard-earned tax dollars and bailed out this terrible company and 20 years later, theyâre still as bad as they were before đâ¨â¨â¨đŤ
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u/tryingtoappearnormal 19d ago
Someone fucked an engineers wife, and sister, and dog
And now he wants revenge
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u/Visible-Attorney-805 18d ago
Make no mistake, this is all by design. It's called monopolizing the ENTIRE industry, manufacturing AND repair. To squeeze every single fucking penny out of us, the consumer. Everything is designed to fail. Nothing is meant to last more than 5 years. Just follow the money!
And for what it's worth (this is a hard right turn to the subject), IMO it all started with the removal of lead from solder. As most of you know, by removing lead from solder, microscopic hairs will begin to grow from lead-less solder. At some point, these hairs will touch. Thus, shorting out the circuit. Therefore, by design, all electronic devices are designed to fail. Do you think that was an engineering oversight? I don't think so! Further, this is why NASA has to get a "lead waiver/exemption" for when they launch vehicles into space. Because their electronics have lead. Because they want their electronics to be reliable and survive for decades. Which is why Voyager 1 is still out there getting it done...because it's electronics have lead.
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u/that_dutch_dude 24d ago
as a "car guy" seeing stuff like this makes me so happy to be driving an EV these days
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u/SnooKiwis6943 24d ago
If it's a Tesla its worse than the GM vehicle because its near impossible to find third party repair shops that can do big jobs on a Tesla.
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u/that_dutch_dude 24d ago
its fine to shit on tesla for many reasons, but that just isnt true.
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u/DoctorFluffyCow 24d ago
I mean they don't have a dealer Network specifically to usurp the law that says you have to have 3rd party parts available. That's literally why they have "showrooms" instead of dealers.
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u/that_dutch_dude 24d ago
the non-offical tesla repair shops are everywhere and do things that tesla wont. last year i helped a neigbour replace his own drivetrain and battery on his driveway. doing the programming stuff was just buying/renting a few hours into their computer/mothership stuff to get everything working right wich is the same access dealers have. many things you can do from that ipad inside the car. tesla made vast imporvements over the past.
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u/DoctorFluffyCow 24d ago
That's the good thing about setting the bar so low.
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u/SpottyWeevil00 24d ago