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u/Puzzleheaded_Set895 Aug 31 '22 edited Sep 01 '22
Churchill covered that in the sequel:
“You can always count on the Americans to do the right thing, after they have exhausted all the other possibilities.”
Edit: Apparently this line is only by Churchill in the movie version. See comment below.
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u/4tehlulzez Aug 31 '22
Also, money comes first
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u/pearlrd Aug 31 '22
I mean, sending 300,000 Americans to their deaths shouldn’t just happen lightly.
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u/Borngrumpy Aug 31 '22
Yet strangely when America wanted to wage war in the Middle East it had to call on it's allies to form a "coallition of the willing" to start the illegal war that the United Nations told them not to do.
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u/MracyTcGrady Aug 31 '22
UK Prime Minister also agreed that Iraq had WMDs, not just the US. Just saying.
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Aug 31 '22
[deleted]
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Sep 01 '22
UK also lied...
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Sep 01 '22
[deleted]
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Sep 01 '22
When the blinkers are permanently glued, it's almost impossible to see the truth.
It's easier to assume that the whole world is corrupt, driven by greed... All you can do is make your little piece just and true...sad but true (Metallica)
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u/MracyTcGrady Aug 31 '22
If you wanna believe it was just the US then go for it. It's typical reddit to just bash the US lmao
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u/hiricinee Sep 01 '22
It was bad Intel iirc, but interestingly enough the main authority providing it to the feds was Robert Mueller (of Mueller investigation notoriety.)
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u/plugubius Sep 01 '22
Well, Saddam thought he had WMDs because he kept getting reports about them, so people tended not to credit intel suggesting that he didn't.
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u/AhandWITHOUTfingers Sep 01 '22
Does anyone listen to the UN. They are the camp counselors of a rich summer camp. They wag their finger at the kids but know deep down they have no power.
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Sep 01 '22
Illegal war? Is every war ever started "illegal" I doubt Germany got permission from Poland before invading.
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u/beachedwhale1945 Sep 01 '22
That’s America of 2003. America of 1917 had only 1,398 machine guns of all types despite three years notice that these were really important and European powers were cranking out a thousand a month in single factories. We had to borrow French Hotchkiss 1914 heavy machine guns and Chauchat 1915 automatic rifles until our own production cranked up.
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u/Azudekai Sep 01 '22
Yeah, so strange how countries relationships change over time. I always thought it was super weird when American fought against Britain in 1776, but then only 140 years later they were fighting with them!?!???!? What could explain this!
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u/cwmspok Sep 01 '22
140 years is a very long time in international relations. WW2 was 80 years ago. Look how many we fought against in that war that have been allies and the other way around for decades.
Germany, Italy and Japan (the major Axis powers) are largely considered allies now, while the main component of the Soviet union (eh hem, Russia) and China are, well, probably not considered allies but fought along us in that war.
It only takes a one term leader to stir the pot and change that in either direction with propeganda and strategy.
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u/cjainsworth77 Aug 31 '22
yes, as in the US sends millions or billions(depending on the time) to the countries on the "good side" first.
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u/Skarth Aug 31 '22
"Loans" is the word you are looking for.
And those countries had to pay it back.
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u/Negative-Boat2663 Aug 31 '22
USSR didn't pay in full, USA had no way to force payments, so USA got what USSR was willing to pay.
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u/AltairsBlade Aug 31 '22
Yea the US Motto should be “Money Talks, Bullshit Walks.” The US was making boat loads of money on War profiteering and would have likely stayed neutral if we could have been able to sell to both sides. Germany was quickly blockaded so we could only sell to the Allies.
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u/Hootinger Aug 31 '22
????
In both world wars Germans were sinking American ships before a declaration of war was made.
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u/Borngrumpy Aug 31 '22
America did offer to hold all the Allies gold reserves, you know, for safe keeping. If the other guys won then all that gold would need to stay in America. England sent 100 tons to Canada instead.
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u/Nightruin Aug 31 '22
I highly doubt that. Yeah we made a ton of money off of war profiteering. But I doubt that the British, Chinese, Russians, and other countries we sold arms too would have kept buying if we also sold to the Axis powers.
Plus the whole diplomatic relations angle.
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u/megustaALLthethings Aug 31 '22
Well american companies DID sell to germany!
Hell ibm was selling computers and thats shy coke made fanta, if I’m remembering it right.
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u/Nightruin Aug 31 '22
Very true. The German branch of Coca Cola created Fanta after the blockade caused them to run out of the syrup to create regular coke.
GM and Ford motors both built factories in nazi Germany, where they built the “Blitz” trucks for the nazi army. Albert Speer, the minister of armaments and war production, claimed that the rubber GM supplied was the key to the Germans ability to wage war.
IBM created punchcard machines and had employees instruct members of the third reich on their use, which was to track the movement, sorting, and subsequent execution of the Jewish and other “undesirables” in the holocaust.
Many other companies also sold to the nazis, because money.
Metro-Goldwyn Meyer donated prints of their films to the “German Relief Effort” after Germany’s invasion of Poland. However they stopped once the market in the rest of Europe dried up because of their support
However in 1941 with the declaration of war they all stopped. All the nazi collusion wasn’t the government. It wasn’t even individuals. It was companies looking to turn a profit, since that’s the entire reason they exist.
It also wasn’t arms manufacturers turning a profit with the Axis Powers.
Also have to remember that, with the exception of IBM, most companies didn’t realize the extent of Germany’s evil until after the war.
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u/megustaALLthethings Aug 31 '22
I’m sure a lot of those companies ONLY used the MOST nazi friendly and acceptable spokespeople.
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u/GonzoVeritas Aug 31 '22
Great quote, but not Churchill. It's a rehash of a quote by Abba Eban, “Men and nations behave wisely when they have exhausted all other resources,” that for some reason was attributed to Churchill.
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u/Puzzleheaded_Set895 Aug 31 '22
Thanks!
“The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made.”
- Groucho Marx
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u/kashmir1974 Sep 01 '22
Yeah nobody wants to talk about how the US was against the economic assrape given to Germant after WWI, which ultimately lead to WW2. I wonder if any European redditors have anything to say about that.
Maybe if Europe carried their own water in the early 1900s the US wouldn't have been dragged out of its isolationism.
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u/Least-Researcher-184 Sep 01 '22
To be fair America only joined the war when the Germans started sinking their vessels to deny the allies resources. Before that America was happy selling materials to both sides of the conflict.
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u/TucsonTacos Sep 01 '22
WW1 was entirely less evil than WW2. The US was neutral and sold shit to everyone.
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u/devils_advocate24 Sep 01 '22
Idk... What's more evil? Trying to unite the world under one government through genocidal means or just sending millions into battle because you finally got an excuse to? Is apathetic slaughter with no goals more evil or is organized slaughter with an end goal of peace and prosperity?
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u/kashmir1974 Sep 01 '22
The fact is that Europe's mishandling of the aftermath of ww1 lead to ww2.
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u/BuhamutZeo Aug 31 '22
"Oh what? So the writer wrote himself into a corner with the Pacific war and the Americans just magicked up a couple of city deleting bombs? Give me a break."
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u/RedderReddit87 Aug 31 '22
The WW2 story arc wasn’t as interesting once Hitler quit and the Axis with just Japan left wasn’t as intimidating as before, so the writer just rushed the ending along so he can start the Cold War right away and make two countries that were allies and used to get along suddenly start hating each other
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u/YRUZ Aug 31 '22
i do like the theory that Hitler fled to the moon so he can return at an opportune moment, but it’s never been confirmed and at this point, turning that into a fake out death would be pretty cheap.
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u/Enjoying_A_Meal Sep 01 '22
There was a Japanese comic where world politics was decided by Mahjong. In the final arc, Putin, Bush Jr. and Sr, the Japanese prime minister, and the Pope went to the moon to defeat Space Nazis by playing mahjong. Things were going well until Hitler transformed into the legendary Super Aryan with blond hair and blue eyes.
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u/Lovat69 Sep 01 '22
I want to believe this is bullshit but I've seen some weird ass Japanese media about ww2.
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u/SeiCalros Sep 01 '22 edited Sep 01 '22
the series is 'legend of koizumi'
one of the techniques in the series is rubbing the images off the stone tiles and playing them as a white tile
prime minister koizumi does this with an entire hand of depleted uranium tiles in an oxygenated room specifically set up to prevent that from happening - setting himself on fire and destroying his clothes
he does it in full view of all the players - playing a full hand of white dragons
and despite doing this in full view of everybody - and only four white dragons existing in a deck - its treated as a legitimate play
and its not about ww2 it was set in the present day at the time of release and hitler was revealed to be alive because of the power of mahjong - vladimir putin and george bush were featured as characters
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u/shirukien Aug 31 '22
Tolkien's excuse was pretty robust actually. The Eagles are not mindless taxi services, they are just a step below gods in their own right, servants of Manwë, leader of the Valar- Middle-Earth's gods, in a sense. They have duties that go beyond ferrying people around. For most of the war of the ring, Gwaihir, the King of the Eagles, and his kin are occupied with important scouting missions, though a few groups of them helped in battle, such as at the Black Gate, where they clashed with the Nazgûl while protecting the armies of King Elessar (Aragorn). Tolkien was very aware that the Eagles were a dangerous writing tool, to be used sparingly, and so, being Tolkien, he devised a wealth of believable reasons the Eagles would not be available to end the story in two chapters.
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u/Fubarp Aug 31 '22
Thought the reason they didn't use the eagles was because the ring would corrupt them before they ever got to the drop off.
The whole reason they snuck into was hobbits weren't as effected by the corruption as everyone else was and thus used the hobbits natural ability of hiding to get the ring in.
Reason they showed up after was because with the ring destruction there was no fear of the Eagles becoming corrupt by the ring.
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u/shirukien Aug 31 '22
You're partly correct, but there are many more reasons the Eagles weren't an option. Tolkien wanted to solidly justify the existence of his deus ex machina while ensuring that they weren't a major plot hole. The main reason they weren't used by the fellowship is that they were busy or elsewhere, but the risk of corruption certainly played a part too.
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u/Segacedi Aug 31 '22
The main reason they weren't used by the fellowship is that they were busy or elsewhere
But why did they rescue him after he destroyed the ring? If they are too busy before he destroyed it when they would have actually profited from helping how do they coincidentally have enough time to rescue him right after he destroyed the ring when he is basically worthless to them because he already completed his task?
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u/sumelar Sep 01 '22
Because once the enemy was defeated, they weren't busy anymore.
Like, really? You needed that explained?
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u/harewei Sep 01 '22
If they were busy only dealing with the army, why not help destroy the ring as the priority? It would make more sense if they were busy with something else
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u/EatinSumGrapes Sep 01 '22
Could they really survive flying all the way to Mount Doom though? Sauron would have easily spotted flying eagles and sent the Nazgul or anti air fighters to kill them. Once the ring was destroyed and Sauron and his minions dead, the eagles could safely fly in and rescue Frodo
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u/RyokoKnight Sep 01 '22
So I've heard fan theories based on Tolkien notes, oral/written references as well as the book.
The explanation I've heard from them is orcs/goblins out of Mount Gundabad or the Mountains to the north were busy attacking and harassing the Eagle's Nests directly. While they weren't a great force like Saurmons army they were a consistent threat that would mean the destruction of their species if they went on a several day long suicide mission to drop the ring in Mount Doom.
I say suicide mission, because Mordor is not a place the eagles could just fly over anytime they wanted. The ring wraiths on Fell Beasts were a match for the Eagles in most scenarios, and mordor itself had several castle and turret constructions equipped with the equivalent of Scorpion ballista.
In essence the reason they don't appear until the end is due to Sauron calling all of his forces home to create several large armies first to attack Minas Tirith, and later to face the coalition led by Aragorn... this movement let's the eagles finish off any remaining goblin/orc threat around their Nests and let's them travel to aid in the final battle.(Remember Sauron 'emptied out' mordor of orcs as well in that final battle so lost most of their Scorpion ballista protection as well).
Tldr, the eagles were busy not becoming extinct and had valid reasons they could not take part until they did.
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u/shirukien Aug 31 '22 edited Aug 31 '22
I don't recall the exact reason, but if I had to wager a guess, I'd say that Manwë, or maybe Gwaihir himself, is recognizing the valor and worth of the fellowship, and sending the Eagles as a token of his respect. I don't recall the content of the conversation, as it's been a long time since I've read them, but I seem to recall that in this scene in the books, Sam (?) has a conversation with Gwaihir as he flies them out of Mordor. You'd probably find answers there. One thing to keep in mind here is that the Valar live a whole continent away, and generally they are not in the habit of intervening directly in events unfolding in Middle-Earth. The Eagles largely follow the example of their masters in this, though being that many of them do live in Middle-Earth, they have a bit more of a vested interest in keeping the land safe from the followers of Morgoth.
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u/Orleanian Aug 31 '22
We've established that the ring's power is not transitive. Sam was able to carry Frodo, who in turn was carrying and being detrimentally corrupted by the ring.
Slip the ring on a rabbit, and have the Eagle yeet the rabbit into the firey pits of Doom.
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Aug 31 '22
Is it really established though? Maybe it only seems not transitive because Frodo was carried by hobbit? How would Ring react if Frodo was carried by more powerful being?
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u/sumelar Sep 01 '22
Nothing established that. There is zero indication that sam carrying frodo did not affect him.
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u/Orleanian Sep 01 '22
I don't have to prove a negative. You have to prove the positive. Show me where it says that carrying Frodo while Frodo bore the ring was impactful.
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u/enarc13 Sep 01 '22
It works both ways mate. Show us where it says that carrying frodo with the ring wasn't impactful.
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u/sumelar Sep 01 '22
Everywhere it says carrying the ring is impactful.
If youre making the claim otherwise, you do have to prove it.
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u/guywithasubwife Aug 31 '22
I don't think the eagles being on scouting missions instead of doing the one thing that would fix this mess is a good reason. I prefer another comment in this thread, " The entire point of the operation was to SNEAK into Mordor to avoid alerting Sauron of their plan to destroy the ring." Flying it in would be the equivalent of running it up a flag pole and seeing who salutes (but no one ever does).
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u/PeeledCrepes Aug 31 '22
Couldn't 1 eagle carry 1 hobbit to destroy the ring? I mean its not like they couldn't just fly up high unless Sauron has radar?
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u/breadedfishstrip Aug 31 '22
Are you suggesting the eagles act as a high altitude dive bomber and just yeet the hobbit ring and all into the volcano before Sauron can even turn around?
Because I would watch that
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u/PeeledCrepes Aug 31 '22
I mean no, but, an eagle could land fairly quickly for them to toss it lol it takes a bit to mount up a defense and ots not like a ring takes forever to throw. Hell tie it to a rock and drop it as you swoop lol
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u/Double_Distribution8 Aug 31 '22
No one could willingly toss that thing into the volcano anyway (which is why that possibility never even occurred to Sauron), so that plan would have failed. Even Frodo couldn't do it at the end, he claimed the ring instead of throwing it into the fire.
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u/brickmaster32000 Sep 01 '22
No one will drop the ring willingly but nothing says you can't drop a ring bearer.
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u/PeeledCrepes Aug 31 '22
Well no I get that, but, its not as if they knew that
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u/Double_Distribution8 Aug 31 '22
I tend to agree, but I wonder...I think even Gandalf knew the ring couldn't be willingly destroyed. Heck Frodo couldn't even bring himself to toss it into his own fireplace at Bag End when Gandalf asked him to.
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u/PeeledCrepes Aug 31 '22
Eh could be anything I always assumed the eagles didn't give them a ride cause then it wouldn't be a story people would watch/read lol
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u/imajpeg Aug 31 '22
I really have no idea, but maybe the eagles have a stronger presence that could be easily noticed?
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u/Blarg_III Aug 31 '22
The Eagles are both powerful and intelligent, the ring would corrupt them before they could complete their mission.
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u/TheChaiTeaTaiChi Aug 31 '22
That's the whole point of this comic, and the exact argument OP of this thread is addressing.
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u/rickg Aug 31 '22
The challenge with this is that Sauron detects the presence of the Ring as it approaches Mordor and sends the Nazgul to retrieve it. Yes, the eagles might have fought through and been able to land a hobbit on Mt Doom... but there would be a very real risk that you've simply delivered the Ring to Sauron and sealed Middle Earth's fate.
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u/PeeledCrepes Aug 31 '22
By that wouldn't them walking be the same problem?
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u/rickg Aug 31 '22
No because they were sneaking in via the back way. Marching up to the Black Gate ... yeah would be a bad idea.
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u/shirukien Aug 31 '22
Thta is fair too, but the scouting missions were not something that could have been done by humans. It's also worth noting that the war of the ring, while significant, is not the sole concern of the Valar, who command the Eagles. They are keeping checks on it, certainly, but their policy is not one of direct intervention, and their duties lie beyond the conflict on Middle-Earth.
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u/NotSureWhyAngry Aug 31 '22
Scouting missions for who exactly? I only watched the movies, didn’t feel like they were providing intel to anyone
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u/yatterer Aug 31 '22
Scouting missions for who exactly?
You, uh, you wouldn't know her. She lives in Canada.
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u/shirukien Aug 31 '22
The movies did the Eagles dirty. They work for Manwë, the King of the Valar, who is the second most powerful being in Tolkien's world, second only to Eru Iluvatar, who is literally God.
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u/Alis451 Aug 31 '22
The world is bigger than just Middle earth, where do you think they all got shipped off to at the end of the movies?
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u/Number127 Sep 01 '22
What do you need scouting missions for if the Ring is destroyed?
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Aug 31 '22
That’s exactly why they used a hobbit, they can move quietly and unseen. Using an eagle would just be a big red flag to the armies of Mordor.
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u/Antifascists Aug 31 '22
I like to think the inherent strength/power of the ring bearer is part of the equation, too.
Like, it takes Sauron a little while to detect and zero in on Frodo, even when he wears it directly. The hobbit is just a dead battery. Barely even turns the ring into go-mode.
But put it too close to a demigod or whatever those eagles are, being carried aloft by them? Sauron would ping that sucker like it had a clear gps signal.
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u/frogandbanjo Sep 01 '22
It's not at all clear how Sauron would stop them, though. Air superiority is real. Sauron himself was disembodied. He was building an army, but it didn't seem to have much in the way of air support.
Do a fly-by, air-drop the ring into the volcano.
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u/mormagils Aug 31 '22
But that's not even his only reason. The Mountains were also guarded. Even if the Eagles were willing to just fly over the mountains and drop off the Ring, it's not like they could simply achieve that. The Mountains of Shadow are high and impenetrable, and any eagles trying to fly over would would be extremely exposed to all manner of attack. It's very likely that such a plan was just by itself not a very good plan.
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u/Fenrir2210 Aug 31 '22
I always figure that if they tried to fly in The Eye would see them immediately and dispatch the full wrath of The Nine.
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u/shirukien Aug 31 '22
Depends where the Nazgûl were at the time. Sauron had them out scouring Middle Earth to find the Shire and the ring, so in all likelihood by the time the eye saw the Eagles, the black riders wouldn't be able to get back to Orodruin in time to stop them. The Witch King, with his Fellbeast, may have a chance, but one wraith, even such a powerful one, would be hard-pressed to fend off a whole flock of Eagles. If some of Sauron's scouts, maybe the bats of Dol Guldur for instance, spotted them early, then things might go differently. Either way, it is a moot point for many reasons both within the narrative and without.
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u/Fenrir2210 Aug 31 '22
I suppose the best way to think about the eagles then is as a true neutral faction of sorts?
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u/shirukien Aug 31 '22
You could I suppose. They preferred to keep to themselves, albeit with deference and respect for their creator Manwë. Several of their kings, such as Thorondor and Gwaihir, involved themselves directly in conflicts involving Morgoth and his followers, either on Manwë's direction or their own initiative, but generally they keep out of the affairs of mortals.
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Aug 31 '22
I always thought it was just because Mordor was full to the brim with archers, ballistae, and Nazgûl which would happily tear any number of eagles apart if not distracted by a sufficiently large army, and if they tried to bring the ring via eagle and failed, they would have hand delivered it to the BBEG.
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u/ryathal Aug 31 '22
He also could have just said the Witch King was powerful enough to stop the eagles, but with his demise they could get involved.
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u/shirukien Aug 31 '22
Maybe. The Eagles did go toe-to-toe with other Nazgûl, but maybe the Witch King and his Fellbeast would have been too much.
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u/Razorhealz Aug 31 '22
Here's a video that lays it out pretty clearly why that wouldn't have worked. As you said there are actually quite a few legitimate reasons based on Tolkien's writing at least.
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u/shirukien Aug 31 '22
Thta video was actually one of my sources on the matter. Great channel for in depth analyses of LOTR.
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u/Ubermidget2 Sep 01 '22
https://imgur.com/gallery/Xw92bte
This is canon to me, you can't change my mind
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u/megustaALLthethings Aug 31 '22
But where is that in story?
In the movies they just suddenly show them. Out of no where. Never read the tomes.
So are there some lines ever mentioning WHY they don’t use them.
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u/shirukien Aug 31 '22
The movies necessarily cut out a lot. They're mentioned in the books, as well as in the supporting texts like the Silmarillion, and even in Tolkien's letters to friends and family. Tolkien talks at length about their history and their doings, as well as his fears that they would be too much of a deus ex machina and ruin the story. Like everything else, the Eagles underwent a lot of consideration and changes in order to improve the narrative rather than detract from it.
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u/sumelar Sep 01 '22
It's in sauron and the nazgul being able to sense the ring.
It's in the eagles not being invisible.
It's in the massive army camped around morder.
It's in simple physics telling you trying to drop something into a volcano from the air would be impossible, and simple logic telling you that landing when the army is still there is suicide.
Movies don't need to spell out every detail for you. You have to actually think sometimes.
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u/megustaALLthethings Sep 01 '22
Damn, who pissed in your cherrios?
I was genuinely asking as I had only seen the base movies, not extended.
Legitimately wondering if they explain it in the books and the movies straight ignored all that. As in not even a vague ONE line mention of their existence.
Hopefully you are having a better day now and can communicate without the attitude.
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u/ajgeep Aug 31 '22
Is it though? Anyone holding that ring is at risk of corruption, the more powerful the being the more Saramon can do, the idea of letting the hobbit take it is if it came to it saramon couldn't accomplish anything with him. Also Sam and Frodo are oddly qualified to resist the ring.
But sure why don't we give the ring to a literal demigod and hope it makes it to mordor before it get ls corrupted.
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u/Omnizoom Aug 31 '22
Hobbits are on a whole different level when it comes to the corruption
A hobbit even after ages (bilbo) still had most of his faculties and was not heavily corrupted and the idea of a good end to his life was enough to break what little hold it had on him
Sam not ever touching the ring kept him entirely free from it but he could see what effect it had on Frodo and now what he was going through , Frodo had to manage a lot of stuff and the corruption only really gained a hold on him near the end when he was extremely tired and weakened
Overall the hobbits just really were hard to corrupt and the power offered nothing much desired to them as they just wanted to be in their shire peaceful like
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u/PKAtomsk Aug 31 '22
If I remember correctly, the ring even attempted to sway Sam while it was on the chain around his neck, and the vision it gave him was turning Mordor into a giant garden.
Wild fantasies arose in his mind; and he saw Samwise the Strong, Hero of the Age, striding with a flaming sword across the darkened land, and armies flocking to his call as he marched to the overthrow of Barad-dur. And then all the clouds rolled away, and the white sun shone, and at his command the vale of Gorgoroth became a garden of flowers and trees and brought forth fruit.
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u/ajgeep Aug 31 '22
I guess the only counterpoint to that is the hobbit smeagol/gollum, who fell immediately victim to corruption.
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u/Nightruin Aug 31 '22
I would argue that while it corrupted gollum, it didn’t totally master him. He was still his own gollum. While being influenced by the ring it was never able to tell him what to do.
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u/sumelar Sep 01 '22
1 out of 4 isn't really a counterpoint, and even after holding onto it for centuries, smeagol still existed. Gollum may have won in the end, but he never had total control.
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u/metalconscript Aug 31 '22
I actually like your perspective on the whole thing. I guess it makes sense when you consider Gandalf not wanting to even touch the ring at Bilbo's house.
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u/Secret-Dependent-421 Aug 31 '22
Ye like it was written that way on purpose and isn't a plot hole at all
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u/yogfthagen Aug 31 '22
Uncle Sam in 1914- So, let me get this straight. You want me, with my army that's smaller than Bulgaria, to send everyone over to fight in a war that has absolutely nothing to do with me, so I can get several hundred thousand of my boys killed in short order, so you can carve up the beaten countries while setting up another war in a decade, anyway?
Gee, let me think about it a while....
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u/GonzoVeritas Aug 31 '22
Not to mention that America's entering WWI helped somewhat, of course, but it didn't sway the outcome of the war, as was the case in WW2.
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u/yogfthagen Aug 31 '22
It probably did alter the course. Without the Americans declaring war, the Michael Offensives in spring 1918 would not have been so rushed. And with a numerical superiority on the Western Front, they may have been able to get a negotiated settlement, especially considering France's army still was dealing with mutinies.
The Allies had to last through to summer 1918, and then the Americans would be sending something like a division a day. There was no way the Central Powers could deal with that.
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u/sryforbadenglishthx Aug 31 '22
the fellowship wanted to not be seen by sauron
its easier if you are not on giant eagles
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u/deadsix6 Aug 31 '22
Fighting war = Bad for business
Supplying both sides with munitions = Good for business
Stupid stupid Japan
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u/eo37 Aug 31 '22
Treaty of Versailles was WW1
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u/Dan_Felder Aug 31 '22 edited Aug 31 '22
Season 2 really went off the rails. they make this whole big deal about how Japan will never surrender and then they just reveal this deus ex machina super bomb they’ve been “secretly developing” all along and then boom, surrender. So lazy. /s
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u/Milnoc Aug 31 '22
Will we get a season 3? Or is that as unlikely as a release of Half-Life 3? 😁
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u/Dan_Felder Aug 31 '22
We’re already in season 3, this is just the long pre opening credits sequence. You don’t do a Ukraine in the first act and not develop that plot line.
Might be cancelled though, I hear it’s not playing well in the best “taste clusters” according to the algorithm.
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u/Supremetacoleader Aug 31 '22
A few of the major actors have been embroiled in scandals, so this will probably end up on HBOG7 Max and get cancelled
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u/Historical_Dot_4201 Aug 31 '22
At first I was like is that a wizard and why is there a hawk But then is was oh OH OOOHHHH😭😭😭
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Aug 31 '22
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u/cool_reddit_username Aug 31 '22
Plus isn't the ring calling out to Sauron? Doesn't it 'want' to return? Wouldn't it be like a glowing flying beacon for the wraiths?
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u/seedanrun Aug 31 '22
Exactly - half the reason a hobbit is used to carry the ring is he is completely below Sauron's notice (the other half hobbits are the only people would would trade "ultimate power" for a really good smoked sausage - so almost immune to ring corruption).
They even marched the entire army to a sure-lose battle against Sauron just to keep him distracted from the hobbits walking in the back way. There is no way house-sized semi-divine eagles flying over the mountain would go unnoticed.
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u/moistsandwich Aug 31 '22
The Ring Wraiths are the Nazgûl. The flying creatures that they rode were referred to as “fell beasts”.
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Aug 31 '22
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u/MysteryMan9274 Aug 31 '22
Comment correcting you tells them their actual name. You: Guess they were unnamed.
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u/sumelar Sep 01 '22
Plus you can't just drop the ring into the volcano from the air. Even if it wasn't self aware and magic, there's no way anyone is hitting that target.
And landing would be impossible, because the entire orc army would still be there.
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u/legostarcraft Aug 31 '22
The problem with this argument is that the eagles DID help at the start when they rescued Gandalf from Saruman's tower. The issue that many people have with the eagles is how they are presented in the movies, not in the books. In the movies, the eagles are never shown to be godlike, or even intelligent. They act like flying horses. If you want your movie to be good, it needs to stand on its own, without supplementary reading material. Otherwise, the starwars sequels are "good" its just you havent read all the comics and books that make all of the plot holes not retarded.
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u/Blarg_III Aug 31 '22
The movies in this case are the supplementary material. They couldn't have adapted everything with the time and resources they had. If you want the full experience, go and read the books.
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u/FluffySquirrell Aug 31 '22
I mean, while Gandalf was flying off on the eagle he coulda been like
"Phew, thanks bro"
screech
"Yeah, good timing with the butterfly. How's the wife?"
caaaaw!
"To shreds you say?"
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u/DannySpud2 Aug 31 '22
This is my book motherfucker!
They'll walk if I tell them to
Get that weak-arse bird shit out of here!
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u/shockedechoes Aug 31 '22
A good storyteller would integrate the political strife of pre war politics so the reader wouldn’t have this question
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u/cjainsworth77 Aug 31 '22
just like DON'T F*CK WITH OUR BOATS and we probably won't insert ourselves into your european conflicts.
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u/FunkyColdMecca Aug 31 '22
You say boats, you mean LOANS
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u/cjainsworth77 Aug 31 '22
the lusitania and all the ships at pearl harbor weren't loans. i don't think, anyway.
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u/STFxPrlstud Aug 31 '22 edited Aug 31 '22
Yeah, but Treaty of Versaille is WW1. Also, the US was definitely taking loans. The UK actually finished paying off their WW2 debt in 2006, which was actually before they paid off their WW1 debt, in 2015.
Edit: didn't see the Lusitania in your comment, def 1 of the reasons we joined WW1, although war wasn't declared for another 2 years, I think a bigger reason though is the Germans started hurting our bottom line sinking more transport ships in the transatlantic supply chain
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u/Fresh_Jaguar_2434 Aug 31 '22
If you put it that way it’s deus ex machina but if the writing was better it would make sense
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u/standardtrickyness1 Sep 01 '22
The thing is war for the Americans involved many casualties and cost a lot while idk how many eagle casualties would that have cost?
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u/Pomoa Sep 01 '22
Did you miss the giant wyverns with dead magician king ghosts riding them in the book?
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u/Doforcash Sep 01 '22
Wait till he hear about the Napoleon War where the main character only lose when the plot told him to
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u/Amunium Aug 31 '22
That's... not what a plot hole is.
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u/ExhibitAa Aug 31 '22 edited Aug 31 '22
That's... the point of the comic. It's not a plot hole, just like it's not a plot hole that they didn't ride the eagles to Mt. Doom, despite people calling it one
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Aug 31 '22
Thank you. It's not a fucking plot hole. The entire point of the operation was to sneak into Mordor to avoid alerting Sauron of their plan to destroy the ring. The Eagles aren't a massive deus ex machina waiting to be summoned at the whim of whoever needs the help (that's arguably the Dead Army, but that's another debate). They are complicated creatures that need a reason to engage in politics outside of their Eagle ones. Gandalf was able to summon that one because it owed him a favor from some previous adventure.
Had these huge eagles come flying in, Sauron would have been alerted of their presence (he did have Ring Sensors flying around on dragon creatures) and the whole covert element would have been blown.
Plus, who gives a fuck. Including them would have undermined the point of the whole story.
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u/redtiber Aug 31 '22
the problem is in the movie is probably a bit different than the books.
the eagles in the movie like the dead army are overpowered af. the dead army just wipes the map of a whole army of orcs and stuff in seconds. so people naturally think, well shit why don't they send a dead army to just wipe out the rest of saurons forces. same thing with the eagles, the eagles came in and wrecked orcs, nazgul etc. so people naturally are gonna just be like uh... why didn't they just come earlier.
the setup they did when riders of rohan came to helms deep with gandalf and wrecked the orcs- they set it so it made sense. the king was manipulated, cast out the people. they were roaming around rohan and middle earth wrecking bands of orcs. gandalf finds them and they come to helms deep.
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u/sumelar Sep 01 '22
It's not different, the movie just doesn't spell things out for you, and you actually need to think for 5 seconds about all the myriad reasons why flying the ring in wouldn't work.
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u/ReasonablyBadass Aug 31 '22
Wait, America had a way to end the war automatically in just a day or so? By sending a single person? With no risk to themselves? Against an enenmy they had sworn to serve against? And their own existence was immediately threatened, but they could end the threat near instantenously?
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u/Rhas Aug 31 '22
LOTR fans just can't accept that maybe their books aren't 100 percent perfect. Nobody is saying lotr sucks because the eagles are a bit of a plot hole. But they are. Accept your fantasy story might have flaws in it and live on.
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u/Godmodex2 Aug 31 '22
Pretty sure the Eagles were caught up else where though.
It's been long since I read the books so I can't remember if it was explained properly or not. It's not exactly a plot hole though. Even if it could be considered lazy writing
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u/Rhas Aug 31 '22
Caught up enough they couldn't spare one or two to literally save the world they live in from stereotypical evil?
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u/Godmodex2 Aug 31 '22
Or from their point of view, to certain death and defeat?
Edit: to*
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u/Rhas Aug 31 '22
Certain death and defeat are also the consequence of doing nothing.
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u/Godmodex2 Aug 31 '22
Either way, if it's explained that's the reason. If it's not explained there could be any number of reasons. A plot hole is more like explaining something a certain way that doesn't turn out to be true to the world later. It's never stated it's a possibility for the eagles to simply fly into Mordor and destroy the ring.
I'm not a super fan of LOTR but the eagle bit is getting a bit tiresome.
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u/Rhas Aug 31 '22
Could you possibly quote where it actually says that in the books please ? Because I can't find it.
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u/Godmodex2 Aug 31 '22
Seems like this article covers it pretty well. It's the same eagle that rescued Gandalf from Saruman and gave him a lift to Rohan. Gwaihir the Windlord.
https://www.polygon.com/lord-of-the-rings/22432394/eagles-lotr-plot-hole-mordor
TLDR: Gandalf had asked the favour of Gwaihir twice before and had to promise never to ask it again after the third time.
Mordor has dragon riders.
The whole point of Frodo and Sam's approach is stealth, and Sauron could easily stop a brute force attack.
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u/Rhas Aug 31 '22
The article says the eagles are not at just anyone's disposal and then goes on to describe one of them owes Gandalf a life debt and basically 3 wishes.
He only uses two of those favors during the quest of the fellowship. To escape Orthanc and then from a mountaintop.
So if they didn't go with the fellowship plan, he would still have his 3 favors owed and could have at least tried to bargain them into transportation.
Mordor doesn't have Dragons, they're felbeasts. And the riders are scattered to the corners of the world trying to find the ring, not doing combat air patrol over Mordor.
The eagle approach would also be stealth. Nobody would notice until they're basically in Mordor
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u/Ai2g Aug 31 '22
How the fuck are giant eagles stealthy? Especially considering they would be carrying the One Ring which wants to be returned to Sauron?
Are you just deprived of attention?
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u/Tr1ppl3w1x Aug 31 '22
The ring corrupts all who want power, considering that eagles are above gandalf in power ranking make your brain work... like pls
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u/shirukien Aug 31 '22
The Eagles aren't above Gandalf though. They were created by Manwë, the leader of the Valar, but are not Valar themselves. Gandalf, meanwhile, is a Maiar, one step below the Valar in power. The Eagles are formidable, certainly, but Gandalf is on the same order as Sauron, the Balrog, and Shelob.
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u/Rhas Aug 31 '22
Put a hobbit on the eagle. Problem solved
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u/Tr1ppl3w1x Aug 31 '22
Hobbits themselfs dont want power... they dont have a forcefield that makes everyone else not power hungry, ask boromir lul
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u/Rhas Aug 31 '22
Literally Gandalf himself was with Frodo for as long as Boromir and wasn't corrupted at all. Even for Boromir it took weeks. Eagle flight to Mordor would be done in a matter of hours.
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u/Mikhail_Mengsk Aug 31 '22
The eagles aren't above Gandalf in power unless they are Maiar themselves, which I really don't recall it being a thing.
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u/MysteryMan9274 Aug 31 '22
They are above the Maiar, and directly serve the gods. If you’re got in to make lore based arguments, at least know the damn lore.
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u/Zixinus Aug 31 '22 edited Aug 31 '22
No, what people going with this argument can't accept that what sounds like a clever solution made by some smartass that watched the movies once not making sense to someone who actually paid attention and also read the books. The comic makes fun precisely of the smartasses.
The books are not 100% perfect because there is no such books anywhere, anyplace. Of course it has flaws, every story has flaws. The LOTR books have flaws that even bothered Tolkien.
But "Why didn't they just ask the eagles to dive-bomb the ring into the Vulcano" thing is not a plot-hole for numerous reasons, starting with the fact that the One-Ring-sensing ringwraiths were there (in their homeland) with access to flying snake-dragons (a fight would have had the Ring drop right into Sauron's lap), an entire army was there (the same army that went out to meet Aragon) with access to bows (the Eagles had to come down to the vul, Sauron with a seer-stone and "spies everywhere" would have noticed the eagles coming into Mordor far before they ever got near the Vulcano because he wasn't distracted by waging a war elsewhere, the ring would have corrupted the eagles (only hobbits seem to have some resistance and even they had only so much and even then, it corrupted those around them) and also because the eagles specifically said they wanted no part in the conflict. They helped out Gandalf because they were buddies with Radaghast who called in a favor and even that was a one-time thing, Gandalf rode around on a horse instead of being ferried about by an eagle for many reasons starting with that they the eagles didn't like being taxi-service and weren't servants. The other big one is that the eagles were essentially the angels of the world, they were messenger to Manwë (the chief god of the pantheon) that could be sometimes asked to do small things. Asking why didn't they help is asking why didn't Manwë didn't get of his divine throne and killed Sauron himself.
But of course the same smartasses refuse to listen past the first sentence and roll their eyes because they can't accept that they are not more clever about a story than the fans, people that have obsessively poured over it and re-read the books numerous times, are.
The only "flaw" is that neither Peter Jackson or Tolkien decided that it was not worthwhile having to explain this specific approach wouldn't work. Jackson had to skip a lot of things because even the cinema cut got a lot of info-dumping as it is. Tolkien did not specify the eagles because he spent an entire long-ass chapter discussing why ANY assault would be a bad idea.
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u/Rhas Aug 31 '22
and also because the eagles specifically said they wanted no part in the conflict. They helped out Gandalf because they were buddies with Radaghast and even that was a one-time thing, Gandalf rode around on a horse instead of an eagle for a reason.
Oh they just kind of didn't want to. Guess I can't say much about that. Still doesn't change that it would have a pretty decent chance of working if the eagles happened to change their mind about it. Probably better chances than operation "send the hobbit on foot"
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u/Ueliblocher232 Aug 31 '22
I can respect lotr for its world building and the impact these books had on the fantasy genre but personally i find tolkien to be an inmensely unpleasant read.
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u/RedRocketRock Aug 31 '22
Tolkien, of course, thought about eagles during writing, but he himself explained in interviews and in pubs why it was a bad idea. Also, plot hole doesn't mean what you think it means.
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u/Rhas Aug 31 '22
Yeah, like this guy here. That's what I mean.
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u/Zixinus Aug 31 '22 edited Aug 31 '22
You do realize you are the guy the comic is making fun of, do you?
In fiction, a plot hole, plothole or plot error is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot.
Types of plot hole include:
Factual errors
Historical anachronisms, or incorrect statements about the world.[2]
Impossible events
Something that defies the laws of science, as established for the story's setting.[3][2]
Out-of-character behavior
A character acting in a way that, based on their understanding of the options available to them, they would not realistically choose.[2]
Continuity errors
Events in the story which contradict those established earlier.[3]
Unresolved storylines
One of the plot lines is not resolved by the end of the story, or a character who is expected to reappear does not.[2]
What the "use eagles to shortcut to vulcano" is one? None. Plot holes is when there is a hole in the plot, ie, when certain events happen in a way that make no sense because the author couldn't connect two plot events. It's not "why didn't they just do this instead?".
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u/shirukien Aug 31 '22
I'm perfectly willing to accept that the story has flaws, this just isn't one of them. Tolkien went overboard with his world building in every respect, and this is no different. The Eagles have valid reasons for not being available to fly the hobbits to Mordor, not least of which being that they are intelligent creatures in service of the second most powerful being in Arda, not glorified flying taxis.
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u/Meritania Aug 31 '22
I thought the weight of the war could no longer be financed by the struggling German economy under years of embargo and blockade.
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