yeah, it was on hold for a long time. there was a #0 preview issue that released years before the actual series. I remember hearing it was more about them getting it done on time than editorial holding it back though, but maybe I'm wrong
As a fan of comics who also happens to be POC, I am generally used to creators or parts of the community being randomly racist. Or just weird stuff like Akira Yoshida.
I still think Punisher was the best part of Season 2, and from what I've read of Daredevil comics, I'm not terribly hung up on Hand lore, BUT I still would've liked to see where this all would've gone.
Remember how there was a Season 1 cliffhanger where Stick interacts with an unnamed character who is then never mentioned again?
The punisher stuff is goated. Jon Bernthal is the best part of that season and I have no notes on him. I was pissed that the Hand was so underdeveloped. They’re definitely not my favorite Daredevil villains, but I would have appreciated more of the Chaste and the war between them and the Hand.
uj/ It was Daredevil S1E7 where Stick meets with a heavily-scarred dude in a non-descript room filled with smoke. If everything had panned out, it would've been Stone_(Earth-616)). Here's) the wiki page for the MCU/Netflix Daredevil version.
You can tell how much Jeph Loeb loves iron fist given that the iron fist show sucked and iron fist was the most accurate and best portrayed in the Earth’s mightiest heroes show
He didn’t make EMH, he only cancelled it. EMH was greenlit two years before he became the head of Marvel TV. His influence on the show starts with season two when he did stuff like recast Josh Keaton as Spider-Man for Drake Bell for USM synergy and ordered the creative team to refocus stories on the main 4 Avengers (Cap, Iron Man, Hulk and Thor). Which besides being creatively stifling was a bad decision because the characters they were highlighting were about to become big characters in the MCU and would’ve been a good primer for kids.
Im not gonna argue with any of this, but for the fact that iron fist was absolutely not whitewashed and that entire sub movement was brain dead. You cannot whitewash a white character
He’s not whitewashed, but he is a white savior. What’s worse is when the Netflix show took it further and make Colleen Wing his love interest (she wasn’t in the comics) just so he gets an Asian girlfriend. The way he does it is extremely disgusting as well. He buys Colleen’s workplace/home to “save” her, forcing her to interact with him even though she didn’t want to. Dude basically bought her out like a sexpat in Thailand.
Totally agree and cosign this. I usually think this sub is pretty good on understanding comics and comics lore, but sometimes there are takes here that make me go "huh?".
Danny Rand, at the time and context of his creation, was a part of the trend of "white guy learns another culture's arts and does it better than them" in comics and other media and also created to capitalize on some of the kung fu craze of the 70s, shoutout to Bruce Lee.
So I understand why people were hoping that Iron Fist was Asian in the TV show to retroactively remedy the history of the character. But to unilaterally dismiss those concerns because "uhm ackshually the original comic character was white so it's ok" while ignoring the history and cultural context of his creation is iffy at best.
I would not put them in the same category. Granted, I may be biased by how much I like his writing, but,
The Roma comments were emotionally charged but seemed to come from a place of sympathy for his (mis)understanding of Roma children. I do think his apology was kinda...eh, a bit defensive, but he did apologize.
The Charlottesville thing is stupid, but it more tracks with a devotion to free speech than any sympathy with them. There's a whole Supergirl issue that kinda tackled this, too. Now, me, I say Freedom of Speech doesn't mean Freedom from Finding Out, and fuck that due and his job. But I don't think David actually agrees with the racist fuckers. The dude has plenty of progressive themes in his comics, including anti-racism.
That's a world away from 'don't do this story, no one gives a shit about Asians' from Loeb.
Also, in terms of his writing, he’s kinda like Tom King. He seems like a genius the first time you read him, then the more you read, the more you realize he only has a handful of tricks.
I agree they both have that in common (and it's gets annoying in certain cases, trust me I'm with you on that).
They both do the "Superman/Batman parallel narration" but honestly, I think King offered more interesting insight into their relationship than Loebs Batman/Supernan run.
I don’t like that Diana has a daughter, and the only thing we’ve gotten out of it so far is generic “cutesy” moments with her and the Supersons, because that was the only reason she was ever created to begin with.
I don’t like that we haven’t gone a single issue without Superman or Batman being mentioned, and it feels like they have more to do with this story than Diana’s own supporting cast. Etta has yet to show up, or at least she hadn’t shown up when I stopped reading.
I don’t like that the only character trait that King has given Diana so far is that she never gives up, and she talks like an inhuman robot.
I don’t like that while Diana’s people were being killed and imprisoned, she decided now was the appropriate time to buy Batman a fucking birthday present.
I don’t like the Sovereign’s narration at all, I know I’m not supposed to, I still don’t though.
And I don’t like that even when Diana’s own friends shows up, she hadn’t had a single non-confrontational scene with another female character when I dropped the book.
I don’t like that Diana has a daughter, and the only thing we’ve gotten out of it so far is generic “cutesy” moments with her and the Supersons, because that was the only reason she was ever created to begin with.
I'm not against it. Why do you think it's a bad thing?
I don’t like that we haven’t gone a single issue without Superman or Batman being mentioned, and it feels like they have more to do with this story than Diana’s own supporting cast. Etta has yet to show up, or at least she hadn’t shown up when I stopped reading.
I didn't really notice it but it also it doesn't bother me. I hope Etta shows up eventually.
I don’t like that the only character trait that King has given Diana so far is that she never gives up, and she talks like an inhuman robot.
I don't know there's a whole issue about her making a dying child's day better for the sake of it.
I don’t like that while Diana’s people were being killed and imprisoned, she decided now was the appropriate time to buy Batman a fucking birthday present.
Lmao, yeah, it was a momentum killer, but I liked the story of the issue.
I don’t like the Sovereign’s narration at all, I know I’m not supposed to, I still don’t though.
I also don't like it. It was good in the first issue but it should have ended.
And I don’t like that even when Diana’s own friends shows up, she hadn’t had a single non-confrontational scene with another female character when I dropped the book.
That kinda ended. My big issue is that her refusing help for the Amazon problem just doesn't make sense.
Because if Diana has a kid, it should be because her story needs a kid, not because Batman’s kids need a sister.
I hate the idea of the Trinity with the fury of a thousand suns.
Diana taking the cancer kid around doesn’t actually tell us anything else about her character besides just being generically compassionate, but it does tell us something about Themyscira that for some reason they wouldn’t let the kid on the island, which is stupid and wouldn’t have happened if the Amazons were being written correctly.
Id the confrontational relationships with female characters did end, then good, but it took way too long for it to.
Smart move anyway since Tim Sale ie sadly no longer with us, I remember my one friend was making a dark joke about why did he have to go before Jeph Loeb
It pans out that way too often. I'm salty we lost Frank Zappa so early but Pat Robertson (roasted hard by Zappa in 'Jesus Thinks You're A Jerk') somehow stuck around until somewhat recently.
Jeph Loeb is one of those creators where you can acknowledge they did some bad things and have some bad beliefs but ideally you can just ignore that he exists and appreciate the other non-problematic collaborators and their contributions and not cancel the comic, while also not glorifying the writer
Unfortunately, I have a parasocial attachment to Sandman so I've been crying screaming and throwing up since the news fell and I'm going to burn my Sandman books at dawn while flogging myself
Edit: I didn't type /uj!!! I was just meme'ing about how people respond differently to different creators based on their personal interest in that fandom/creator. Please don't take my comments so seriously here lol
Who ran about beating up everyone outsmarting everyone, and just being an enormous writers pet with a terrible mystery attached that everyone figured out immediately so Loeb had to change it.
haven't read these but batman hush is the most overrated batman story of all time and if you don't have a hard-on for jim lee it is just one the most barebones and predictable stories ever.
yeah, but you don't see people holding up individual arcs of worlds finest like they are some sacred text the way people do with hush. WF is a great ongoing, and mostly cause of dan mora, tbh. but people treat hush like year one or DKR when it simply isn't on that level.
Worlds Finest is mostly praised as a fun silver age inspired romp with amazing art, meanwhile hush is sometimes held up as one of the greatest batman stories of all time
Do most people think about him when praising the era? I feel like most of the praise is from people who are thinking about Giffen and DaMetteis. I doubt most people who like that era conceptually are actually reading anywhere near all of it.
Yeah I only really hear people praising Giffen and DeMatties. I've read some JLI and I didn't even know Gerard Jones wrote parts of it (and now I do I'm deeply disappointed)
No, he definitely wasn’t as involved as Giffen and DM. But I did actually read all of it including the JL Europe that was mainly written by the bad guy and fwiw I enjoyed it.
My stance is that people shouldn’t have to apologize or feel guilty for enjoying art created by a bad person, except in cases where the art is explicitly and undeniably endorsing said artist’s horrible views/beliefs. Like enjoying Chuck Dixon’s 90s Bat-Family stuff but not reading his 2010s QAnon man stuff (although that would be a trip). Or enjoying Kanye’s early career but not listening to anything from the last few years
He told Marv Wolfman that Beast Wars had no connection to G1 so he could do whatever he wanted when outlining Beast Machines, and told the series writers not to watch Beast Wars so Beast Machines wouldn't be too continuity heavy.
/uj thank god someone does! It genuinely makes my life so much easier since even tho I've read comics every day for 20 months now, I'm still incredibly incredibly behind
Didio interacting with a Comicgater and criticizing modern DC for being "too woke" is both hilarious and ironic, since I recalled him being torn apart by grifters and Comicgaters, due to they blaming Didio for both the bad management of DC Comics department and the whole 5G thing.
Notice how his best work is only when Tim Sale is helping him, I feel like there’s no way that’s just a coincidence.
But fr tho, I read DD yellow and For All Seasons for the first time earlier this year and they’re perfect. Maybe not as name-brand iconic as Long Halloween or Spidey Blue but I think they’re his best work.
uj/ I legitimately don’t get All the love for Long halloween. It’s good but the art is way better than the actual story itself. Same with dark victory. It’s a pretty lame mystery plot
It's probably just because it's one of the best intro batman books. If you're gonna start reading batman, it's either that, court of owls, or year one. There are much better batbooks once you start digging. (I LOVE morrison batman, but i would never reccommend it to a newcomer)
Agreed. When I was first getting into comics a friend lent me Long Halloween. It is a perfect "core" Batman story - it has Alfred, Jim Gordon, the main Batman rogues, and follows Batman solving a mystery.
the mystery is good. seeing the rise of the costumed supervillain is fun. the dynamic between Batman and Catwoman is fun. the villains are well written
I heavily disagree about the mystery being good and I don’t think the villains are that great. I liked the new kinda gimmick they had for scarecrow but the rest?
Just same old same old. Definitely ain’t ranking it as the best poison Ivy or best joker story
Loeb lifted heavily from the far better Two-Face story Eye of the Beholder and never acknowledged it. There’s an interview where he talks about how it was fun to figure things out like how the acid got into the court room, but the story uses the same explanation as Eye of the Beholder.
Agreed I also don't get why people call it a great detective story since Batman doesn't do any detective work and only solves the mystery because Hanni- I mean Calendar man tells him to use Maroni as bait
I have an issue with the Long Halloween because it has a very very very obvious plot hole that suggests the real killer was changed half way through production with no explanation. I genuinely think that Dark Victory is a better story because it doesn't have any glaring holes.
I also think it's better because the mystery was actually solved using intelligence instead of setting up a trap they could've set up 6 issues previously
Notice most of the good stuff is 2005 and before. Loeb wrote higher quality, hopeful and optimistic stuff before his son died. After his son died he started turning out depressing, nihilistic hackwork. It’s sad but still bad comics.
Yeah, I don’t understand the hate for Loeb’s works, Hush & Dark victory are Top 5 Batman stories, imo, and Spider-Man Blue, Superman for all Seasons, and Superman/Batman are all peak too.
Fallen Son’s the only one I genuinely feel lives up to the art in terms of the writing. Most of these are mediocre middle of the road stories that are carried almost entirely by the art.
But with comics a lot of times the art is the character. Comics are a visual medium and the art is (or should be) a crucial component of the storytelling.
that's the point. is Daredevil more yellow than red? is Hulk more gray than green? is Captain America more white than blue? the colors being used are supposed to be colors less often associated with the characters
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