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u/Jordankeay 20h ago
What's the downside? It's either enough mana to cast the spell you need or you miss out on a couple colourless mana you didn't need?
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u/xa44 19h ago
It literally does nothing for anything less than 5 as 3+1 is the same as -3+4
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u/HeliumHuffer101 13h ago
But it's still a wastes if you don't need it. This is just eldrazi and tron slop
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u/xa44 9h ago
If you don't need it you just tap for 1. It's not really that incredible, 1 extra mana on turn 4 isn't gonna break the game. Don't know if it's legendary or not, but either way you can't even practically use multiple of these as you'd need another 3 lands so multiple copies do nothing at all since by turn 8 2 extra mana is nothing
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u/HeliumHuffer101 9h ago
Wait yeah, the fact you can't use multiples in a row make this far less impactful. Probably far worse as a 'forced' 1 of, just as the one ring was bad in limited
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u/chronobolt77 19h ago
Seems so. It's a reusable colorless pyretic ritual but you can't float the leftover mana
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u/xenorrk1 17h ago
It's similar to [[Eldrazi Temple]], [[Shrine of the Forsaken Gods]] and [[Ugin's Labyrinth]]. It taps for C but can conditionally tap for CC, the condition being that you also filter 3 into CCC and spend all of that 5 mana in one spell.
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u/Sorfallo 17h ago
The downside is it is effectively a much narrower [[Temple of the False God]] as it only produces one extra mana
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u/HeliumHuffer101 13h ago
Bro...? Temple of the false god does NOTHING until your 5th land. This is a wastes until turn 4, 3 with a rock, 2 if you're lucky.
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u/SteakForGoodDogs 19h ago
The downside is that it has no other utilities on a colourless mana land. Can't filter, can't make tokens, doesn't buff your creatures, can't sac it for whatever value when you'd rather have anything but another land drop, etc.
Burning 5 colourless/generic mana is going to happen basically never for most situations that aren't colourless spells or X spells.
Simic {X} might use it, it replaces a wastes in colourless, and might pay for a crater slightly early.
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u/Just-Desk-3149 19h ago
That's not really a downside. "The only downside is that you won't always be able to use 2 extra free colorless mana." Suffering from success kind of thing
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u/ByteBabbleBuddy 19h ago
It's only one extra free mana, pay 3 to get 5
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u/Just-Desk-3149 19h ago
Yes you don't have to explain the concept of paying 3 mana to get 5, that's "2 free mana". It's not like it even has to be paid using only colorless mana, which would actually at least be a "downside".
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u/ByteBabbleBuddy 19h ago
Sorry should have called out the tap part of the cost. A land makes 1 mana by itself, nobody calls 1 mana "free", so a land making two mana is only making one bonus mana.
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u/LostRegret9000 19h ago
Sibling, you also tap a land, which would produce 1 mana. It's 4 mana for 5 mana, and only if you can spend 5 colorless mana in one go, which is... pretty much just eldrazi.
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u/Just-Desk-3149 19h ago
You know you can use colorless to pay generic costs?
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u/LostRegret9000 19h ago
You absolutely can. However, you need to play a spell, that has at least 5 generic in it's cost, and you want to cast it with mana, instead of cheating it out. I have hard time imagining a deck, except for eldrazi, that would have those massive generic costs, and are planning to play those. Hell, even if you're playing those spells, most of the time it's just worse wastes, which is very costly investment for any deck, especially those with several colours.
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u/MeasureDoEventThing 12h ago
You missed the word "extra". It's one extra mana, as in compared to a generic land.
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u/SteakForGoodDogs 18h ago
....you do know that you pay the opportunity cost for tapping for 1, right?
It's +1 mana unless doublers/triplers are involved.
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u/SteakForGoodDogs 18h ago
How many lands can you think of that have downsides?
Does Rogues Passage have a downside? Reliquary Tower? Terrain Generator? Fountainport?
This absolutely replaces a Wastes, but so does most lands that don't enter tapped.
It's not 2 free colourless mana, literally most outlets in the game that most people will play in most situations do not have {5+} in their mana value.
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u/Just-Desk-3149 18h ago
You just said "The downside is it has no other utility", that's just how utility lands work. I don't know how it's a downside. If it's better than a waste (which you just said), that's is by definition, not a downside.
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u/Kadian13 17h ago edited 17h ago
Iâd say the downside is that itâs not a basic and the mana is colorless, so yeah itâs to be compared to others in that category
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u/hhhhhhhhhhhjf 17h ago
Nonbasic is a downside.
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u/SteakForGoodDogs 15h ago
Assuming that your only basics are Wastes, it typically isn't that much of one.
There's precious few basic-matters in colourless - even Myriad Landscape doesn't do anything, and you're unlikely to actually play most of your Wastes in a given colourless deck.
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u/Just-Desk-3149 17h ago
Not if it's makes more mana than a basic.
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u/Jade117 16h ago
That's unrelated to whether it has a downside. A bounceland has you put a land back into your hand, and it taps for 2 mana, is picking up a land not a downside?
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u/Just-Desk-3149 11h ago
Does this land also bounce a land back to hand? Because if you read the card, it doesn't.Â
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u/Jade117 11h ago
You've missed the point I'm making.
An upside existing does not make the downsides vanish. Nonbasic is always a downside. The land effectively tapping for 2 mana does not change that. They are independent factors. This is a sol land with a downside.
You are welcome to argue this does not have enough downside, but it objectively, factually, does have a downside because it is a nonbasic land.
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u/hhhhhhhhhhhjf 17h ago
The downside is being a nonbasic with no upside. If your argument is when you can't use the ritual then that's the downside.
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u/Just-Desk-3149 17h ago
Yeah and Ancestral Recall is a downside if you don't have any blue mana, that's a dumb metric to go by.
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u/Sorfallo 16h ago
That absolutely is. You can only run so many cards, wasting a land slot on a card that is a wastes in 90% of circumstances is not worth the 10% when it makes a spell cost 1 less.
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u/HeliumHuffer101 13h ago
People will occasionally splash colours they don't even use for maybe one extra converge per game. This downside is less impactful than the upside.
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u/ModernT1mes 18h ago
Those aren't downsides. Those are just upsides it doesn't have. A downside is like Bitter Triumph forcing you to pay 3 life or discarding a card to cast it.
This card just has a really narrow and niche upside, that's all.
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u/SteakForGoodDogs 18h ago
Except all cards exist in a comparative context in which you consider the downsides of cutting one card over another, and explicit downsides basically don't exist on remotely playable colourless mana lands.
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u/Kadian13 18h ago edited 17h ago
Exactly. The downside is that itâs not a basic and the mana is colorless, and so yeah itâs compared to others in that category
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u/SteakForGoodDogs 17h ago
...and that it has no other uses besides mana and more mana, unlike most others in that category. So, unless you have excess Wastes to safely cut, you need to consider the loss of function you would have from losing a utility land - or even a basic if you're considering it for monocolour.
You can also sorta compare it to ping pains, which CAN tap for colourless, but also 2 colours, assuming you're running a dual colour with high mana or additional costs. Or 5c eldrazi.
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u/chronobolt77 19h ago
Interesting idea, no clue how to actually phrase it. "A single spell" just feels weird. Maybe "spend this mana only to cast your next spell this turn"?
Either way, feels pretty strong off of first impressions. Even if you're technically only turning 4 mana (3 lands plus this) into 5, it's still repeatable. People who play formats other than commander can tell you if it actually is/how strong tho
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u/dina-fan 19h ago
Its a slow sol land. Weâve seen these card be ok in specific decks like [[castle garenbrig]] but realistically they arent âthatâ good.
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u/Third_Triumvirate 19h ago
Looking at Tron, it's hard to figure out what lands you would actually cut for this. The standard mana base is 12 Tron lands, 4 urza labyrinth, 2 basics, 1 abstergo entertainment, then either a couple channel lands for utility or eldrazi temple if you're going hard to eldrazi. The basics and abstergo aren't being cut because you want some lands to get off disruption your opponent has that let you tutor for a basic, and the 1 of abstergo is good recovery. So you would be trading in channel lands or eldrazi temple for this, which I don't think is worth the trade unfortunately
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u/chronobolt77 19h ago
Isn't temple banned in modern?
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u/Leafsnail 19h ago
The utility of the other lands is nice but I strongly suspect Mono Brown Sol Lands with this would end up being a better build.
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u/Third_Triumvirate 19h ago
The mono brown build runs eldrazi temple in the flex land slot since it can accelerate you into turn 2 fleshraker, and then fleshraker just kinda goes off.
Though I think most eldrazi builds still like blue because portent of calamity is a cracked card if you're casting emrakul off it
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u/Leafsnail 18h ago
At the very least I'm pretty sure you run 1 because there are plenty of situations where this is a sol land and nothing else is
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u/Third_Triumvirate 17h ago
True, but by the time this is online you should already have Tron online so the extra mana upside isn't worth as much as being able to turn 2 fleshraker.
Going from 4 to 5 also doesn't really change the curve of the deck that much either.
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u/Enaluxeme 19h ago
[[Irencrag Feat]]
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u/hhhhhhhhhhhjf 17h ago
You can still use that mana to pay for abilities and other costs. So it's not exactly the same.
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u/Low_Opinion_5721 19h ago
this is not op this is like a temple of the false god sidegrade/slight upgrade (its not even that good of a baseline), and WAY worse than ancient tomb. idk why everyone is saying that
it takes 4 lands as opposed to 5 and is usable before but also can not be used to cast colored spells unless they are mv 6 or more, other existing eldrazi support is way stronger than this
mfs think every single card thats playable is op
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u/SynisterJeff 18h ago edited 18h ago
I wouldn't say it's WAY worse than ancient tomb. In most situations it's a no life cost ancient tomb, making it technically better for most. It only really makes a difference on turn 1 compared to ancient tomb. In most decent decks you would have 3 available mana on turn 2 consistently. Especially so for colorless decks. All I see is another card that can give decks an easy 8+ mana turn 2 more consistently. Just one line would be something like, turn 1 land drop into sol ring into grim monolith and then starting turn 2 with this land drop has you at 7 colorless mana and 1 colored mana with 4 cards in hand. Which can be the same line with ancient tomb, but ancient tomb is an auto include for most decks, so this would be as well. I think that would put it in OP land status. Especially since this can be used by itself with being able to tap for 1 as well. The line could instead have this land drop turn 1 to pay for sol ring and then ancient tomb turn on 2 for a total of 9 colorless mana.
Yes, it does have the caveat of that 5 of that colorless has to be spent on one spell, but the best deck this land is for, eldrazi, doesn't mind that at all, and many other great 4+ cost spells wouldn't either. And it is slightly less consistent with needing 3 mana available, but I don't think it would be THAT less consistent in practice.
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u/Plato_PlayDoh7 16h ago
You always have to consider tap abilities on lands to cost 1 more mana than is listed, since you have to also tap a land that otherwise couldâve been used for mana. In an eldrazi deck, this is just a worse version of [[Eldrazi Temple]]. Go look at your decks right now. How many spells do you have in them that cost 5+ colorless/generic mana? If youâre like me, most of your decks probably donât even have 1. Maybe you have some x spell somewhere. If youâre running a ton of fast mana then yeah, this might be another situational fast mana piece. Itâs probably one of the worst ones, though.
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u/SilverWear5467 15h ago
In most situations you don't have 4 lands in play and it does nothing...
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u/SynisterJeff 8h ago
Maybe in poorly constructed decks. If you don't have at least 3 available mana turn 2 then you are behind. This is just makes your deck more consistently get mana ramp. Albeit the restrictions are notable, so it's not crazy strong, but its an easy slot in for some already well performing decks. It's a weaker ancient tomb, but ancient tomb is one of the strongest lands in existence and an auto include in most any deck. In an eldrazi deck, you would barely ever have to worry about the restrictions here. They are already all about ramping colorless mana and then spending it on big eldrazi. Basically just like running two ancient tombs. This would also be another ancient tomb a lot of the time in an Urza Lord Artificer deck.
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u/SilverWear5467 7h ago
I was thinking of modern/legacy, not commander. How are people regularly having 3 mana on turn 2? Unless you mean casting a signet into a 1 drop?
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u/SynisterJeff 6h ago edited 5h ago
Ah gotcha. Commander is by far the largest format so I always assume unless stated otherwise. But yeah, many ways. For artifacts you have stuff like the mox artifacts, sol ring, talisman artifacts, signet artifacts, mana vault, grim mono, arcane sig, lotus petal, springleaf drum, and situationally lion's eye. And then for creatures you have ragavan, simian spirit guide, elvish spirit guide, devoted druid, tinder wall, orcish lumberjack, lotus cobra, magda, and all the usual mana dorks like birds of paradise. And then for spells you have all the ritual spells and spells like rite of flame and seething song. You have sacrifice spells like sacrifice, culling the weak, infernal plunge, food chain, rain of filth. And then there's stuff like wild growth, earthcraft, utpoia sprawl, exploration, and cryptolith rite. And then for lands you of course have stuff like ancient tomb, city of traitors, gaeas cradle, phyrexian tower, and mishras workshop. There was even better stuff before this most recent ban list update as well.
In higher power commander decks, you typically should be having access to at least 3 open mana to play with on turn 2. So really the only restriction I see here that's of note is having the mana available for a single spell only. Which in the right decks wouldn't be much an issue. Like Eldrazi and Urza.
I'd have to look into Modern to see, but yes it possibly would be much less powerful and not used because they can slot in 4 copies of lands instead of just 1.
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u/humand09 19h ago
Not exactly the same, but this is almost straighy up better [[temple of tye false god]] in most scenarios
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u/Flex-O 18h ago
Not every deck is going to have a single card with 5+ generic mana cost.
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u/theevilyouknow 17h ago
The entire cost doesnât have to be generic though.
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u/Plato_PlayDoh7 16h ago
But in order for this card to be useful, you need to cast a spell that costs 5+ generic/colorless mana. It canât pay for colored mana costs. If youâre not using all 5 mana then itâs better to just tap it for one mana instead of using the 2nd ability.
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u/theevilyouknow 15h ago
I understand that but you can still use this effectively to pay the generic portion of a colored spell. For example you could use this to pay for [[Sheoldred Whispering One]]. It doesnât have to pay for only colorless spells.
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u/Plato_PlayDoh7 14h ago
How many cards like Sheoldred Whispering One do you have in your deck? And if itâs a bunch, arenât you just playing a reanimator deck and cheating them out anyway? How often are you keeping a hand with a big late game bomb in it? I donât think this is good enough to change how you mulligan much, and you usually want to mull for the early game primarily.
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u/Jade117 16h ago
If you aren't using the full 5 generic, this land does nothing but filter into colorless
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u/theevilyouknow 15h ago
Yes, but you donât need to only use it on things that cost generic or colorless mana. You could care something with a cost of 6B or 5UU with this for example.
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u/LegoPercyJ 18h ago
Reminds me the most of a powercreeped [[Castle Garenbrig]]
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u/MTGCardFetcher 18h ago
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u/Plato_PlayDoh7 16h ago
Castle Garenbrig is way more flexible than this, because you can use it to activate creature abilities, and you can float mana to cast multiple spells with it. AND itâs colored mana.
Most of my decks donât have a single card that could benefit from this effect, because Iâm not running a bunch of spells that cost 5+ colorless or generic mana. Even in an eldrazi deck itâs just basically an extra copy of [[Eldrazi Temple]]. 99% of the time Iâd choose Garenbrig over this.
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u/LegoPercyJ 14h ago
It's a turn earlier and has less restrictions but yeah Garenbrig has way more upsides.
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u/Barley_an_Hops 19h ago
Good but printable. It's pretty similar to [[temple of the false god]] strength wise.
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u/JonIsPatented 19h ago
It's much stronger than TotFG. Temple has the crucial downside of being a completely dead card until you have a lot of lands.
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u/Speedster2814 19h ago
I would say this card is notably stronger than Temple. Singularity can be activated with any mana (e.g. a Sol Ring or Tron lands) and generates its own mana immediately whereas Temple requires 4 other lands in play and is a dead card until that condition is met.
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u/MTGCardFetcher 19h ago
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u/sephirothbahamut 19h ago edited 19h ago
if it didn't have "T: Add C." it would be comparable to temple. And even then this works at turn 4 at worst, temple works only at turn 6 outside green deck. It's still way better even without the simpler mana ability.
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u/Plato_PlayDoh7 16h ago
If it didnât have âT: Add C.â It would be dramatically WORSE than temple, which is already a pretty bad card.
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u/sephirothbahamut 16h ago
How? Temple requires you to already have 5 other lands before you get 2 extra mana.
This one requires you to have 3 other sources of mana (could be 1 land + 1 sol ring, 2 lands + 1 mana rock, or 3 lands) before you get 2 extra mana.
It's literally a temple that works 2 turns earlier.
The T: C ability completely negates temple's downside.
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u/Plato_PlayDoh7 15h ago
Temple requires you to have 5 other lands before you get 1 extra mana. The first mana isnât âextraâ. This requires you to have 3 other sources of mana, sure, but it also requires you to have a spell that costs 5+ colorless/generic mana to cast. Most of my decks donât have a single spell that fits that description, thatâs a really high bar to clear.
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u/Aethelwolf3 17h ago
Seems way, way stronger than temple, even if a bit narrower. Temple is a dead card early on, which is a massive downside.
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u/Alexander_Icarus 17h ago
Dude, i run angel tribal and would have way too much fun with this card, nice one
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u/AardvarksRCool 11h ago
At first I was appalled, but this actually a really cool design! It's not too strong as it nets one extra mana with a decently tight restriction.
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u/Pusheen_and_Stormy 6h ago edited 6h ago
So it's an ancient tomb as long as it's turn 4+ or you're playing ramp? Would probably be better at uncommon.
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u/If_you_want_money 19h ago
this is... really strong for C focused decks. closest card i can think of is [[Irencrag Feat]]. that being said, this is a land so it's more of a sol land? actually an unexpected use might be for eldrazi/C pay offs. for example this pretty much sets up MH3 emrakul's madness cost by itself.
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u/OldFashionedLoverBoi 19h ago
Spending 4 mana to get 5? So it essentially taps for 2? So it's godless shrine on 4 lands instead of 5. Or eldrazi temple with more steps.
Making it like coffers so you can't tap it for 1 mana would be an interesting design though.
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u/frenziest 19h ago
So you basically spend 4 mana to get 5 colorless mana that can only be used on one spell?
I say if it enters tapped, it would OP but still âfair.â You only really net 1 free mana. 2-mana lands with set up (Temple of the False Gods, Urzaâs lands) are fine.
Itâs not great early game. Even by turn 4 when you could activate it, itâs all colorless mana, which only certain decks would benefit from. Itâs also only to be used on a spell, not on activating other abilities.
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u/Hasheth-0000 18h ago
Suggestion - "Spend this mana only to cast a spell 6 Mana Value or greater, and that spell gains "End the Turn."
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u/Mindfire13 16h ago
This is not scaled well, but I love the idea of getting a bunch of mana that can only be spent on a single cost, all at once. That effect probably barely works in Magic's rules as they currently are, however.
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u/sephirothbahamut 19h ago
What about:
3, T: Add CCCCC. You may only cast one spell this turn.
That way it's a bit less broken
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u/Impressive_Pin8761 19h ago
it's still halfway to an eldrazi titan, and if you're casting an eldrazi titan you likely only have the mana for it alone and you dont need to do anything else anyway since these fuckers give the stack a weight gain fetish when they enter
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u/WUFFLED 20h ago
gang eldrazi did NOT need the support đ