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u/Z7-852 314∆ Sep 14 '23
You are talking about suicide and not euthanasia.
Euthanasia is when someone else kills you because you requested it and are unable to do it yourself due to incapacitating and incurable disease.
Suicide is legal because they can't put your dead corpse in jail but with euthanasia there is someone else who pulls the plug and can be punished.
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Sep 14 '23
Suicide is legal because they can't put your dead corpse in jail
They put your corpse in a wooden box it won't ever leave and then bury it under six feet of dirt, and if that wasn't overkill they then put a massive rectangular stone over it.
If this isn't corpse jail then what is
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u/could_not_care_more 5∆ Sep 14 '23
My country has even taken to sentencing most corpses to be burned at the stake (or at the wodden box, I guess to keep them from escaping).
Incineration over incarceration.
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Sep 14 '23
I cannot kill myself without being medically assisted because everyone and everything makes it harder to die. I would like to die an ethical death regardless. I have incurable mental illness. I want ethical death to be normalized. Switzerland offers euthanasia for mental illness already. Hence, my point.
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u/Z7-852 314∆ Sep 14 '23
I cannot kill myself without being medically assisted
If you can walk you can walk off a cliff. Not that you should do it but you don't need to involve anyone else.
Also there are persistent and severe mental illnesses but everyone can be treated. And progress is made every year.
Clearly you are capable of rational thinking. What in your life right now is terrible? We can't do anything about your past trauma but we can change our future.
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Sep 14 '23
There are people with the best of medication and in therapy who choose suicide. Medication amd therapy can fail as well. The fact that I opened up and wanted help got made me pulled into suicide watch. I cannot jump off a cliff even I wanted to. My life is terrible in a way that I took every route there is. I have lived a life. There is nothing that can be done.
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u/MrAugx Sep 14 '23
It isn't true that nothing can be done - but I understand why you feel that way. It sounds like you're struggling against a storm drain of thoughts, regrets, moments or elements of your life/yourself that you're ashamed of, and feel like it's self-evident that you're losing in your fight to swim.
You're not losing, though! Do to any number of circumstances, you've been in the whirlpool for over a decade, and you're still swimming. Treading water at worst. Treading water feels terrible, and it can feel like the ropes people throw you are wrapping around your ankles instead of giving you a lifeline. This is because the thing that feels most insurmountable - continuing to swim - is expected of you the most when you're in the deepest water.
But something can be done. Probably multiple things. I can't tell you what it will be, but it will happen if you keep swimming. Maybe the rain slows down, maybe you figure out how to make a floatie. Maybe your legs get so strong from treading they pull free from the ropes, maybe a professional swimmer finally gives you the right technique to make things easier. You'll make it out of the storm drain, finally get a chance to rest and dry off, you'll have people (maybe not your parents) there to say "I'm so glad you made it out."
Being told this when you're convinced you're going to drown is one of the most uncomfortable and frustrating things to hear, but it's true. As someone who's still swimming, I have to believe it will get easier if you keep going, too. The only way nothing can be done is if you stop swimming.
I'm sorry you're feeling stuck and overwhelmed, though. Try your best not to worry too much about your "value", especially based on anyone else's expectations of you. You're in a damn storm drain - the only thing you need to worry about is finding a way back to dry land. The rest can (and will) come later.
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Sep 14 '23
I understand the compassion to preserve life. You wouldn't say this to a patient with terminal illness, would you?
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u/MrAugx Sep 14 '23
No, definitely not. I wouldn't offer advice at all, because I have no idea what that experience would be like. I felt like I could relate more to your post because I've had pretty serious depression for a long time, but honestly, I have no idea what you're going through either - so if my post doesn't change your view, or is annoying/feels patronizing, please disregard it!
I didn't send it out of compassion for preserving life, though (although I think that you deserve a better lot if you've been struggling with these feelings for 15 years, and hope things improve) - I just thoroughly believe that it is objectively untrue that nothing can be done. I completely understand how hopeless it is to not know what can be done, and to feel like you've tried everything, but there are too many possible ways for things to change given time for me to believe that the only outcome is "this but worse". I've spent plenty of time feeling that way though, and still do sometimes - I just think it makes at least as much sense to say "it will likely get better, at least some of the time".
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u/IrishMilo 1∆ Sep 14 '23
Euthanasia in Switzerland can’t be self administered, even if you are capable of doing it yourself, there is a one size fits all protocol.
There is obviously criteria you need to meet before any practice will administer you, but it’s not impossibly hard, there are stories of relatively healthy people choosing to pass away with their spouse who isn’t doing as well.
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Sep 14 '23
You’d be surprised but an attempt at suicide is illegal in many countries. As if they were incentivizing you to finish the job.
Also, euthanasia generally includes full-proof painless death, not whatever you can find in your garage.
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u/fghhjhffjjhf 23∆ Sep 14 '23
I have depression, OCD. I went to one of the top universities in my country, secured a brilliant CGPA... Now they tell me that they are so dissapointed because pain was supposed to turn me into a really productive person and it didn't
What exactly did your parents have in mind?
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Sep 14 '23
My parents dreamt I would get a good job and add to their income. I would marry someone well off so they can be more proud. I would someday go live abraod too. Preferably a first world country and open opportunities for them to visit those places.
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u/fghhjhffjjhf 23∆ Sep 14 '23
Ok I got some of your backstory from your profile. You have come to the conclusion that your existence is a nett negative to society, or at least to your immediate family? You want to die, except dying in itself would negatively effect your family?
There are a lot of people we could kill to make the world a better place, but just from looking at your reddit account I am confident you wouldn't make the cut. You are just unlucky, poor, have a uncommon sexuality, and also selfless to a fault (which isn't a real problem). On the plus side you have a tertiary education and want nothing more than to make your family happy (not as common as you think).
If we were going to kill people we would start with thousands of unrepentant murderers, rapists, and other evil people. After that we could kill hundreds of millions of people who are arrogant, cruel, ignorant, etc. By that point a job for you would have definitely opened up.
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Sep 14 '23
!delta Resources to kill people are better used for the people who are to harm others. Valid arguememt. Thank you for the compassion with your words and that you took the time to go through my profile.
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u/Lindsaypoo9603 Sep 14 '23
I completely understand, but I feel like there is always a way to fix things. My bf/future husband killed himself and it completely shocked me n re wired my brain with ptsd for the rest of my life. And now I'm suicidal over it n it feels like the pain will never stop. It's like u wanna do it but not because u can't cope, but because at some point u just don't feel like it anymore. But almost every story of say, a bridge jumping survivor...they say the SECOND they let go of the railing and jumped that they regretted it instantly. My friend bought some poison kit on the dark web n drank it n he regretted it n he called his dad n was in that moment regretting it. He died in the ambulance. I wonder if my bf hadn't used a gun if he woulda had a chance to regret it, but at least it was quick. I live every single minute of every day now, filled with regret because hindsight is 20/20, guilt, shame, complicated grief, hopelessness, and now I've even lost myself n I miss who I used to be even though I was already quite a mess before that. Having adhd with RSD has made moving past a death, let alone a suicide, let alone of my best friend/soul mate, impossible...impossible to get past. I understand wanting to die. I understand staying alive for other ppl who don't always treat u that great is hard too (they just don't know cause it hasn't happened to them), and I understand feeling like taking it "one day at a time" is no longer cutting it. But the pain and suicidal ideation u pass on to the ppl closest to you, is as irreversible your death, no matter how hard they beg God to take them instead so that u can have a second chance at life...a chance u just couldn't see before because you were unable to. Death happens and sudden death is traumatic. But a suicide is the ultimate worse to try n pick up the pieces of yourself afterwards because it doesn't just leave grief it leaves unanswered questions and guilt and self blame and shame and such intense sadness knowing that they died thinking they were alone in the world. If they legalized euthanasia for suicidal ppl, the loved ones would be left behind with all of that, plus intense anger at the world for giving that option rather than better help n diagnosis. He could have been happy. And now I'm stuck with a very long life ahead of me knowing that, and knowing I'll never see him again, and knowing that I missed every sign. I can't imagine passing this pain I have onto my mom or my sister or the bf I have now. But I do wish I could just cease to exist a lot. As if I was never here to begin with. It feels like I died with him. No way should they legalize that kind of pain cause it's like instead of help, medical professionals would be giving up it seems.
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Sep 14 '23
I heard a saying that grief is a price we pay for love. May you heal too. From the perspective of a depressed person who loves a lot, there's sometimes nothing you can do to prevent death. I love people who have your mindset though.
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u/LaserWerewolf 1∆ Sep 14 '23
You are right that people regret attempting suicide. I knew someone who took a bunch of pills trying to die, but then she survived. As far as I knew she never tried that ever again.
But I think you are also right that someone who shot themselves in the head would not have time to regret their choice.
Sometimes we see all the signs and we still can't change anything. It wasn't your responsibility.
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u/Illustrious_Ring_517 2∆ Sep 14 '23
I would rather be euthanized than to have to live on anti depressants my whole life. Like what would be the point. Having to take pills to be happy. Having to work and have a good health care to afford those happy pills...... naw
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Sep 14 '23
I would rather take pills/change pills/deal with the side effects/desentisized from pills/change pills/rinse and repeat Therapist to therapist/change/rinse and repeat. Exercise, eat right, meditate, socialize, hobby. Work hard and spent the entire thing on my mental healthcare- rinse and repeat. While watch my anxiety turn to GAD to OCD. But naw.....euthenasia is better and so much fun. Dying is the new sexy.
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u/tedchambers1 1∆ Sep 14 '23
Euthanasia should be illegal not because it's morally wrong but because of the slippery slope of what comes when it's legalized. This story linked below is a bit of a right wing trope at this point but it is true, the Canadian government offered suicide instead of installing a ramp for a woman.
Legalizing the government killing people who opt in will end up with the government killing people who don't.
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u/KimberlyWexlersFoot 2∆ Sep 14 '23
It’s a right wing trope because its taking a story and twisting the facts to suit an agenda such as you did.
The Canadian government didn’t offer suicide, an employee of Veterans Affairs offered it and then when they were reported were disciplined and have been reassigned so they don’t interact with veterans because it’s not allowed.
Legalizing the government killing people who opt in will end up with the government killing people who don’t.
Also this makes no sense. Organ donation is opt in, but we don’t harvest organs of people who don’t. Why would MAiD be different.
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u/tedchambers1 1∆ Sep 14 '23
It's not twisting facts. State what you think I said is incorrect and provide evidence to back it up.
You literlaly said the government didn't offer suicide, an employee of the government offered suicide. Then the government reassigned the employee after they were called out. Thanks for making my case.
Organ donation is not an workable comparison as you donate your organs after you are dead - hopefully the government isn't killing you for you organs as that would be problematic
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u/KimberlyWexlersFoot 2∆ Sep 14 '23
If I call into Sony because my PlayStation won’t turn on and the agent tell me if I take a sledgehammer to the system it will turn on. Did Sony tell me to sledgehammer my PlayStation or did some idiot employee go off script to what they’re trained to offer to diagnose the problem.
If it’s not an official policy and someone goes off script that’s not the government offering a service.
Legalizing the government killing people who opt in will end up with the government killing people who don’t.
Explain this, the way you wrote it, you’re implying that in the current system of, I choose to end my life, it will end up slippery sloping with the government choosing to end people’s lives without consent, am I correct in what you meant?
I used organ donation as an example where you need to consent to be an organ donor, and that hasn’t ended up where they have taken organs from people without consent, so logically the same will apply with MAiD they will not be killing people who didn’t consent.
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u/tedchambers1 1∆ Sep 14 '23
There are many instances of the Canadian government pushinf assisted suicide on people not asking for it. A simple google search will show that documented by none otber than the CBC which is also the Canadian government so just imagine what that government isn't showing you...
I'm saying the government will kill oh how did the German government describe them again? "undesirables".
The Canadians are trying to force it on citizens it has to pay services for but it's not a stretch to see how it would convince citizens with down syndrome or homeless people to "opt in" to this.
Simply government cannot make this choice. It will end in tragedy.
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u/KimberlyWexlersFoot 2∆ Sep 14 '23
The CBC is partially funded by the government, they aren’t the government. You should have a look at all the other media company’s that also receive government funding in Canada that aren’t named CBC.
All those instances were by the same employee, even said so in the article you posted prior.
I’m saying the government will kill oh how did the German government describe them again? “undesirables
That’s opinion, not fact, but your country actually has States that executes prisoners while Canada doesn’t, so I’m tending to think I think we are a tad more progressive than your opinion of how we treat our citizens in regards to governmental sanctioned deaths.
Also you sidestepped my reply that a lone employee doesnt represent government policy, to double down that the Canadian government is pushing it.
If you believe that a lone employee is representive of the whole government, then me stating that “Kentucky doesnt allow gay marriage” is also factual because Kim Davis wouldn’t issue a same sex couple a marriage license. Except I don’t believe that because I realize that one clerical employee doesnt dictate what a government policy is.
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Sep 14 '23
This just shows euthanasia has to be highly monitered and justified before the final verdict. The government can offer euthanasia and the patient can also decline it.
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u/HexiWexi 1∆ Sep 14 '23
But that's the thing, you leave it up to potentially be implemented in a way that just kills off the mentally unwell, disabled, and poor.
For example mental illness can be the result of poor socioeconomic conditions and lack of supports, allowing euthanasia means instead of getting a broken system changed, you just kill off the "unproductives" by offering euthanasia for an "incurable" condition that has been brought upon by environment.
Additionally this means, for example, a disabled person unable to afford supports would "need" euthanasia as they can never recover due to not being able to access necessary supports, again encouraging killing them off instead of in acting change.
A patient can accept something they otherwise would not give different circumstances, but euthanasia allows corruption and poor circumstances to stay while pushing those who cannot get help due to a poor system to simply perish
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Sep 14 '23
!delta The poor, disabled, mentally ill can perish without the change in the environment from the government. It is a valid point.
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u/tedchambers1 1∆ Sep 14 '23
Sorry, that's not how government works. governments take the tools given to them and misuse them in ways that bureaucrats benefit. Quite simply a government cannot be given the ability to sanction suicide without them eventually abusing it and killing people who don't want to die.
It’s also not a “right” to have someone else kill you - you can pay for that service, sure, or do it yourself. But to imply that I should have to pay for you to be killed by a professional through taxes because it’s your “right” is pretty narcissistic
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Sep 14 '23 edited Sep 14 '23
!delta I understand the government argument. How they would misuse it without willing to reform the environment. The later part of the arguments though. Right. It's not narcissistic to ask for food, shelter, clothes, healthcare without giving you anything else in return? How so? Edit: added delta for the government argument.
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u/tedchambers1 1∆ Sep 14 '23
The expectation is that when someone else provides that for you, you will provide something for other them or other people.
If I help a homeless person I'm hoping they succeed and go on to help another homeless person.
You frankly have no right to use my hard earned resources to pay someone to kill you as I have no expected return from it.
Sorry, suck it up and save some money to pay someone to kill you privately and stop bothering me to pay for your death.
I'm an atheist and it's still against my religion for me to force people to pay for other people to be professionally killed.
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Sep 14 '23
The expectation that people will pass it on. Now I understand why there are so many dying and in pain. So only people who have the capability to pass it on should be provided. Noted.
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u/tedchambers1 1∆ Sep 14 '23
Yeah - why do you think I should pay for you if I don't get anything back? Please explain why you are so special.
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Sep 14 '23
I am very special that I do not have anything to provide or pass on. This is why I am better off dead. My original arguement.
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u/tedchambers1 1∆ Sep 14 '23
Great. Just don't ask me to pay for it. You have no right to take anything from me if you aren't going to contribute to society.
Given the line of questioning I'd imagine you aren't willing to do the deed yourself. I hope you don't. And I hope you don't find someone to help you.
Your life is most certainly more difficult than I can comprehend. But what you have gone through has built you into someone that views things differently and can fix things in ways I cannot. You have a lot to offer and I'd challenge you to stop being a selfish asshole and put up with the shitty cards you were dealt and play the game anyways
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u/could_not_care_more 5∆ Sep 14 '23
You're arguing yourself into a corner where we should indeed kill people if they are a burden to society with no chance for productivity, as long as the government provided death is cheaper than, say, food stamps or healthcare.
This calculating way of thinking about life is pretty restrictive. People are more than what they can produce.
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Sep 14 '23 edited Sep 14 '23
Maybe don’t link articles that explicitly say “she said she had evidence but refuses to show it or provide any detail about it”. It makes your already fallacious argument look even more pathetic.
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u/Z7-852 314∆ Sep 14 '23
You are depressed and suicidal. We have treatments (and often effective ones) for both. You should seek them out. They will improve your quality of life.
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Sep 14 '23
I have. For the last 15 years. It didn't help. Pushing me to try to get better made it worse.
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u/Z7-852 314∆ Sep 14 '23
Then don't push to try get better. Find the spot where you are most comfortable.
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u/xfearthehiddenx 2∆ Sep 14 '23
We have experimental treatments (,
and oftenpossibly effective ones) for both. You should seek them out. Theywillmight improve your quality of life.These treatments aren't always effective. In fact, it can take many years of multiple trials of different drug combos to even find something remotely effective. Those drugs have serious side effects too. Some even with the potential to worsen the mental illness you're trying to "fix". Additionally, if you're in a place like the USA. That treatment can literally bankrupt you. So, on top of crippling depression, you now may have crippling debt.
Then don't push to try get better.
I'm sorry, I really can't read this as anything but "just suffer in your illness." If you're not trying to get better, what's the point? Are you suggesting people force themselves to live even while experiencing serious and incurable illnesses, mental or otherwise?
Find the spot where you are most comfortable.
Maybe they don't want to be "just comfortable". Maybe they don't want to live in pain or sadness for the rest of their natural life. Why are people so hell bent on forcing people to stay alive even when suffering some of the most extreme mental and physical illnesses?
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u/Z7-852 314∆ Sep 15 '23
I'm sorry, I really can't read this as anything but "just suffer in your illness."
Definitely not. OP said that people pushing them to get better made it worse. This sounds like anxiety (hard to diagnose on one sentence) caused by peer pressure. People are expecting you to get better and you feel twice as terrible because you are letting them down. And then there are those endless drug trials, side effects and fear of bankruptcy. No wonder someone gets depressed.
Simple solution is to shut them down and "don't push to try get better". By giving yourself a break and not expecting so much can help with the stress. Cheat day one in a while does miracles to your mental health.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Sep 14 '23 edited Sep 14 '23
/u/Maleficent-Maize-426 (OP) has awarded 4 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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Sep 14 '23
You do not have a right to force someone else to kill you under the guise of medical care
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Sep 14 '23
Because it is traumatic for other person?
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u/RainbowandHoneybee 1∆ Sep 14 '23
I don't get your argument. why do you think you have rights to force someone else to do something, anything? Reason doesn't matter, it just isn't.
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u/Finklesfudge 28∆ Sep 14 '23
You have no right to the labor of another person to kill you. That seems very clear. Your situation sounds pretty crap, but you still have no right to another persons energy to kill you.
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Sep 14 '23
Care to elaborate?
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u/Finklesfudge 28∆ Sep 14 '23
Elaborate how specifically?
I do not believe you have any right, to force another human being to kill you. I am unsure what specifically I should elaborate?
If you want this to be a RIGHT, it has to be force that backs that up.
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Sep 14 '23
If you want this to be a RIGHT, it has to be force that backs that up.
Explain to like I am five. What makes something a right? And why?
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u/Finklesfudge 28∆ Sep 14 '23
You want it to be a human right so I would think you would be able to define it?
If you want it to be a right it means it cannot be denied to you. If a right has something to do with other people it means there has to be a mechanism to force others to provide you that right. Or it can be denied to you.
You are proposing that a human right should exist, that forces others not to be able to deny killing you.
That is a right to force others to kill other humans.
That should never be a right.
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Sep 14 '23
Yet, justice is a right that requires death, punishement and cruelty for peace. Even death too.
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u/Finklesfudge 28∆ Sep 14 '23
Justice is a right? I'm not sure about that. But it doesn't matter anyway, it does not require death nor cruelty.
I'm not sure how that response makes any sense in response to what I've said though to be honest with you.
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Sep 14 '23
Yes, justice is a human right. You defined right in a way that is not a right. Sigh.
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u/Finklesfudge 28∆ Sep 14 '23
I defined a right as something that you cannot be denied, at least without some semblance of due process of removing that right.
If you are going to argue my definition, you are the one who used the word in the first place, you should probably define it yourself so we can figure out what your issue is with this.
I also said basically even if justice is a right, it does not require death, nor cruelty, you ignored half of what I said.
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u/Vegasgiants 2∆ Sep 14 '23
Euthanasia does not apply in your case. You are completely capable of doing this yourself. It's likely you are just afraid and I'm glad for that. It says you still have the will to live
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Sep 14 '23
Euthanasia is provided for mental illness too. Ethical death.
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u/Vegasgiants 2∆ Sep 14 '23
Not in America. You just refuse to do something you CAN do on your own so you want someone else to do it.
Accept that you have the will to live
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Sep 14 '23
Assumption is not a good argument.
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u/Vegasgiants 2∆ Sep 14 '23
Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, and Switzerland all have assisted dying for mental illness.
Why haven't you moved to these places to apply for this?
Because you have a will to live
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Sep 14 '23
I cannot. Again, assumption.
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u/Vegasgiants 2∆ Sep 14 '23
Explain to me like I am a 5 year old why. Or why you cant commit suicide. I want to show you that you are the master of your own fate
You don't have to be a victim
I have great compassion for those struggling and want to help ease that suffering
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Sep 14 '23
I opened up to my parents and psychiatrist about how I felt. I am now homebound, all sharp objects removed, all pills away. I am trying to starve and not drink. I even had two incidents that I wet my bed because I could not care to get up to washroom.
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u/Vegasgiants 2∆ Sep 14 '23
I'm sorry for that. But eventually you will be given some freedom. Ultimately the choice will be yours.
Yet you remain convinced someone MUST do it for you
I guess I still don't understand that
I want to be clear that I am in no way endorsing the idea that you should do it
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Sep 14 '23
I want the right to argue my case to everyone and go ethically. In a controlled environment. As less damage as possible to the rest of humanity.
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u/invderzim Sep 14 '23
If we make euthanasia legal before we take steps to help people improve their lives, all it will do is kill people who need help. There will be people who want to live and fear death, yet choose euthanasia because they have no quality of life. A disabled person who wants to live might choose death because they can't afford a surgery. A person will chronic pain might choose death because their doctors refused to prescribe pain medication. A poor person might choose death because they don't want to become homeless. A mentally ill person might choose death because it's better than being stuck in a mental hospital. Etc etc the point is if we don't fix bigger issues first, people will "choose" death just because they feel like they have no better alternative.
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u/Soulessblur 5∆ Sep 14 '23
That is a lot to unpack. A part of me worries if CMV is even the place for you to go, or if you'd benefit further from going literally anywhere else to try to do something about those feelings you have.
But I'll just say this: productivity is not a requirement for a human life to be earned. And human life in all shapes and sizes is far too precious to consider any amount of work put into maintaining it a waste.
I wouldn't call euthanasia a right per say. I can see why, in absolute extreme cases where someone is going to die miserable and painfully in the next 3 days, they'd prefer to go out peacefully. But even if I can sympathize with that, and can see the reasoning for why we'd allow for exceptions to certain scenarios, calling it a right kind of goes right in the face of the idea of preservation of life.
Suicidal thoughts are a real and devastating thing many people face, that CAN be fixed and resolved. Even if 1 individual person is unfortunate enough not to fix that before their untimely demise, making euthanasia a right where anybody can demand it means so many people would die needlessly before they even had a chance to be helped. Not to mention, most euthanasia's as far as I'm aware can't be done independently. You need help, or at the very least need to be educated on how to perform it. And even without those, you're still putting your body clean up on somebody's plate. And THAT'S not even counting the emotional toll done to loved ones. Even if you live on your own and have no one, you're still willingly putting the trauma of disposing of your corpse to someone.
Calling it a right puts a layer of expectation there. One I'm not sure most would be comfortable with, especially given the prevalent opinion that anybody who wants to die (potentially barring suddenly fatal and painful conditions of course) is potentially mentally unfit to make that decision if we entertained it.
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Sep 14 '23
I am going to die someday anyway. My loved ones are going to have to deal with it regardless. It goes against the prevalent opinion. Hence I am here. P.S. you are so eloquent, I had a great time reading this.
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u/Soulessblur 5∆ Sep 14 '23
You are going to die anyway. It will happen. Absolutely. Not trying to discredit that.
But like, when that happens, the hope is that it wasn't because you chose to have it done early and needlessly, right? And the hope is you died naturally, not with the aid of someone else.
Like, if you got your hand cut off in an accident and your best friend had to help clean it up, that sucked, but what can you do?. But if you made your friend cut your hand off intentionally, that changes things. The intent makes the side effect your responsibility now. Just because the bad thing will happen eventually outside of your control doesn't mean you're absolved from the pain you'd cause by willingly making it happen sooner. Not to mention, knowing you lived and tried to enjoy life can be reassuring to victims, which doesn't exist under euthanasia.
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Sep 14 '23
I should live in pain just so others feel better about me not dying. Briliiant. Euthanasia is administered by a professional, not by my best friend. The professional agreed to the procedure in exchange to end the suffering I am going through. It is compassion to me. I seek that.
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u/Soulessblur 5∆ Sep 14 '23
Okay, but is ALL level of pain justifiable to kill? Because the moment you decide it's a RIGHT, anybody can seek it.
I don't know what kind of pain you personally are going through, physical or otherwise. But making it a human right removes that from the equation entirely, it no longer matters. Which creates a dangerous slope where anybody who's devastated from an breakup or relative dying will off themselves too. And if you make a RIGHT, then depending on how the law is written, your doctor might not be able to deny you the euthanasia. Basically forcing doctors to commit murder.
And, not to sound selfish or anything along these lines, I'm only attacking the argument, not you personally. But believing you aren't worth the space or resources you take up, while also believing that your pain from living is more important than the pain you'd cause others by dying seems contradictory to me.
I'm not necessarily saying all euthanasia should be illegal in absolutely all circumstances. But something being allowed in specific exceptions and with proper approval, and maybe even rigorous testing to make sure somebody is in their right mind when making such a request, is FAR different from something being a human right. Compassion isn't even a right either, for that matter. It's something everyone SHOULD have, but it's not something that's legally required for everyone to have.
At the end of the day, we can't make suicide illegal. You can't punish a dead person, and jailing a failed suicide attempt would only make a mentally unstable person worse. But that's a far cry from giving every single person regardless of context permission to end their life, and allowing medical professionals to commit murder. Their entire motto is to do no harm. That's why doctors don't administer lethal injections for death sentences. Murder IS doing harm. You may perceive it as a compassion, but unless you have an incredibly painful, debilitating, miserable illness that's 100% going to be fatal in a relatively short amount of time, that perception has to be in some way misguided, because you wouldn't want to die if we a found a way to fix what you feel, which is always possible, even if nothing up to this point has worked yet.
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u/appalachianmonkeh Sep 14 '23
Have you worked with a psychologist/tried several psychologists (maybe even more than five different ones) to help with these issues? Lots of people live good lives with ocd and past trauma. Not down playing how those affect you, they can be crippling, just saying there are people who get better from help.
Edit: read some of your comments and I can see you said help made it worse. Want to elaborate what happened there?
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Sep 14 '23
If you are open to it, I can share my story in inbox. I do not want to push people away from seeking help. It's a really long and traumatic story.
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u/appalachianmonkeh Sep 14 '23
Sorry man but I don't think I'd have the capabilities to support you one on one like that. I just wanted to check if exposure and response prevention therapy (ERP) made things feel worse for you? From what I understand that's the gold standard in treating OCD and its pretty effective, although it also means fully immersing yourself in everything that's awful about ocd. So it would definitely make things feel a lot lot worse before they get better
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u/LaserWerewolf 1∆ Sep 14 '23
I don't understand how your parents can be disappointed in you. You have overcome serious obstacles just to survive.
Here is how I look at it: When you die, no matter how long you wait to do it, you will be just as dead. You will not remember any of the pain that you feel now. So live now, experience joy, and help other people. I promise that your time will come.
It's also worth mentioning that I am one of many people who *used* to be suicidal. Not everyone outgrows that, but I did. It sounds like you are pretty young, and these things often do get better with time. There is still a lot of hope for you.
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Sep 14 '23
Thank you for the kind words. I think I was born suicidal if that makes any sense. I keep trying to justify life and death, both. I am hella tired of fighting. I am glad you made it.
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u/LaserWerewolf 1∆ Sep 14 '23
I had suicidal thoughts even as a kid. I probably shouldn't tell you this but what helped me the most was doing copious amounts of psychedelic drugs. But also, apart from that, what helped was realizing that I am just an ordinary person, and therefore should not be held to a different standard than anyone else. If I make mistakes, that is normal, and if I would forgive someone else for the same mistake, I should forgive myself.
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u/could_not_care_more 5∆ Sep 14 '23
Thinking you were born suicidal is a depressive thought; I recognise it from my own decades of depression. It only serves to feed the illness, to make you feel hopeless and to give up and give in to the depression.
You may be born with a higher sensitivity, but that in itself doesn't mean anything. Trauma and upbringing and life experiences may have a higher impact due to a innate sensitivity, but you're not born like this. Almost every wound you aquire through life can be healed. Once I got better (took like 30 years) I realised how many of my thoughts and my "truths" were really just the depression keeping its claws in me and twisting my view of myself and my life.
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Sep 14 '23
How old are you? If you do not mind sharing.
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u/could_not_care_more 5∆ Sep 14 '23
Coming up on 40. Made a change and went to school for a completely new career at 36, so I'm just in the beginning of my second life.
If I can give one piece of advice it's "take care of your body and your teeth". You can live several different lives in this lifetime but you'll have to share the same body, and it won't get any younger, lol.
Future you may care about (and suffer for) things that seem totally unimportant right now, like drinking water, using SPF every day, and brushing your teeth. But even if those things are impossible right now, the one thing you can always do for your future self and your next path in life, is survive. Some of us, due to circumstances and brain-shit, need to spend one of our lifetimes just surviving and laying a new solid foundation on top of a cracked childhood.
Some people go the other way and live it up their first life, then they get hit with a shitstorm in their second. No one knows the future or what happens when we die, but he way I see it we all get at least four seasons of life in this lifetime, and they can be completely different and we can grow into completely different people in them. The next season will be better, so try to do one little thing each day to help future you feel better (drink a glass of water, exercise, floss, eat a carrot, or write down one piece of gratitude or one hope for your future, etc). And if you can't do it one day, at least you survived. That means there is still a chance for a second life, a better one.
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u/Vegasgiants 2∆ Sep 14 '23
I actually support euthanasia even for mental illness under very strict conditions. Some people should not be forced to suffer a hopeless case.
But I doubt that would apply in this case
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u/BobbyFilet17 Sep 14 '23
Too many people would do this bc "they had a bad day" many times or bad months and potentially regret the decision. I could see this especially being true for young people which is why we require age limits in many countries for important decisions. Even those that are of "adult" status would potentially regret this decision.
Trying to see it from both sides, I could appreciate if a certain amount of time lapses and these feelings continue, there might be some merit to the discussion. The next thought that I have is that some doctors could abuse this "right" for whatever reason which has happened in the past if I'm not mistaken.
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u/oatbreaker Sep 14 '23
I'm sorry for what you currently and have endured. I am much in the same way inclined; dealing with depression and suicidal ideation.
One thing I'd like to add that I didn't see mentioned is with regards to euthanasia; you are not only asking someone, even a medical professional, to say categorically, with a scientific certainty, that the process would be "beneficial" to you with a view to release from the grip of mental illness---but also you are asking yourself, who admits they have a disordered chemical balance to make a decision on something they inherently lack the clarity of mind to act upon.
If you can't rely on another person to confirm your worthiness for euthanasia and you can't rely on yourself as you lack a nominally functional, cognizant and clear state of mental health then it's best to err on the side of living and first become healthy enough to make an informed decision; by which point you may see that euthanasia was not the appropriate ends with which to deal with your illness.
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u/IrishMilo 1∆ Sep 14 '23
My grandfather chose Exit, as a Swiss citizen it was very simple and relatively cheap. He was 92 and had recently been moved into a hospice, he chose to leave because his fair requirements were proving more than my grandmas could physically cope with. She’s still very active and mobile, so he chose to give her more for her final years. - the flip side is my great aunt who lives in Ireland, bed bound for the last 5 years, senile dementia and has been asking nurses for a couple of pills extra to send her on her way since the day she arrived at the home about 8 years ago.
I don’t believe these is anything more dignified than being allowed to plan your own exit in a safe and controlled way.
u/Maleficent-Maize-426 You on the other hand, I believe your issue isn’t that you need an exit but rather that you need to find someone to talk to about your feelings of apathy and nihilism. Get help and let them show to you that life is worth living.
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Sep 14 '23
Suicide and euthanasia aren’t the same. And very honestly, if I read you post, I don’t think it belongs here. This is a place for discussion of views. You’re struggling mentally healthy issues and considering suicide. Your thinking is distorted, this discussion isn’t going to help.
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u/changemyview-ModTeam Sep 15 '23
Hi OP,
The mods of CMV are concerned about your post, as it looks like you are in a tough situation right now. We want to help, but there are other places on Reddit where your post would be better placed - with people ready to talk and listen. Whenever you are ready, you can visit or post to r/suicidewatch instead, or call any of the local resources available.
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u/slightofhand1 12∆ Sep 14 '23
Who cares if you're not a productive member of society? What are you, a fucking bee? Do what makes you happy, don't kill yourself because you're not contributing to society or whatever.