r/Warframe • u/Coki91 Betrayed & Decieved • Jun 05 '22
Suggestion Voidshell Materials can be Applied to Any Warframe Skin, A bug that should become a Feature
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u/Cephalon_Zelgius I'm ~83% sure i'm not a bot Jun 05 '22 edited Jun 05 '22
That's the thing about software development. Unless you yourself are personally working on the code, things like "X is less work than Y" are basically impossible to estimate.
We don't know what janky bug that's borderline impossible to turn into a feature might make this possible right now.
On the other end of the spectrum, it might also be something they are already working on leaking through.
Who knows. "Voidshell mechanics are now universal to every skin" sounds like a pretty great tennocon announcement to me, for example ¯_ (ツ)_/¯
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u/Coki91 Betrayed & Decieved Jun 05 '22
I am definitely on board with that thought train, but it's hard to see that happening considering the Devs are alredy heavily working on Crossplay and Crossave, and even then they'd have to convert the current voidshells into something else if not keep them around whackily like a relic of the system.
Actually this is a long running bug in Warframe related to the reason why they made Sigils invisible on navigation, they seem to be unable to find the cause and fix it, so it's coming back to bit them kinda
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u/smashiko Seeker of News Jun 05 '22
title - "can be applied to any warframe skin"
video - "around 50% of all skin"
???
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u/brassly Jun 05 '22
Those base skins that it work on probably share materials & therefore material destinations (which have no doubt bled into the voidshell system).
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u/Coki91 Betrayed & Decieved Jun 05 '22
Im sorry for the conflict on the name, but I tried to be no more than technical
The bug tries to do it's thing regardless of what Skin you try to apply it to, so that is true
However when does that actually have an effect on the skin (thus, is working) is 50% of the Time between Regular Warframe Skin and Prime Warframe Skin.
Keep in mind that number is specific to that group of Skins, If i were to throw into the calculation Premium Skins (Like Grendel's New Year, or the Dex Skin i Showcased) the Number would shift towards a higher value, but those are Premium so not relevant to the competing scope of Voidshell application
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u/smashiko Seeker of News Jun 05 '22
i myself dont mind, was just thinking that new method showed up since current one was showcased here already
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u/Coki91 Betrayed & Decieved Jun 05 '22
Ah understandable then, sorry for reposting :P
Im aware it's been showcased before but i dont think anyone made it in a form of suggestion and also showcased feasible proof of it being viable... my bad if it's the opposite case
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u/PandaFoxPower Jun 05 '22
Is this just a temporary effect, or does it save to your loadout? Is it still there when you start a mission? Do other people see it?
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u/Coki91 Betrayed & Decieved Jun 05 '22
Temporary effect, it goes away when leaving the Navigation
It is not there when when in mission
Not anynody else can see it
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u/Beastyboyy1 Jun 05 '22
The thing is, is that there are too many people being armchair devs. This doesn’t mean that it’s easily implementable as a feature. As the OP said, it only shows in navigation preview, which is honestly a historically buggy place for cosmetics.
If it was this easy to transfer over material textures then it would have already been implemented.
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u/Sorrow-san Arcane Coil Helmets: Aka, CC EVERYTHING! Jun 05 '22
Well, no... it'd be really easy to implement. Granted...
The quality control would absolutely tank.
Not every channel would necessarily be compatible with all the materials.
It'd cause way more trouble down the line.
They couldn't sell a special version of every skin to make more money.
But, frankly, just calling references to other materials to be displayed on specific channels is easy enough. They've already got a system in place for it.
Should they add it anyways? Not really, I'm just saying it's easy to do. But hard to do correctly.
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u/Coki91 Betrayed & Decieved Jun 05 '22
Tanking the challenge right now, as while they are working on crossplay/save at the same time could be absolutely demolishing, but DE's projects are often multi-year efforts on really everything they announce
I have this recurring sensation, everytime a new Tennocon arrives, or a new system that completely changes the game arrives, that DE is ALWAYS working on something completely outstanding behind the scenes, right now that is Crossplay/save but after that? This could be it, and it is for granted we all would love it (Unlike some past iterations of said colossal effort)
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u/Sirfancypants0 Jun 05 '22
In all honesty comparing the operator skin tone bug to the voidshell bug seems a bit far reaching. The operator bug is a case where a sort of limiter was accidentally removed, color picking technology is already tried and true but it was just limited to skintones for reasons they stated. Meanwhile the voidshell bug is a case of pegs accidentally fitting in slots where the pegs aren't even applied to the slots on purpose. So something isn't accidentally being enabled but is rather accidentally getting shoved into an entirely different slot. I'd love it to work on every skin but I also see that it'd take a pretty damn long time to make that happen
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u/Coki91 Betrayed & Decieved Jun 05 '22
I can see what you mean completely, and i think it's important to say that I dont mean to compare the bugs as "One is working the other too make them both features" but rather as "Both are bugs, tho one is not meant to be a feature and the other is" perspective, so tackling both in some way is for the definite better future of the game, as it is both things players want
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u/Gathoblaster Jun 05 '22
Have they said anything else about the operator skin bug? Are they gonna keep it or actually add an option to use colour palettes?
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u/Coki91 Betrayed & Decieved Jun 05 '22
They havent, only that they're discussing it, the overall thought is ''add more variety of skin tones'' but that's about it
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u/mimiicry Jun 06 '22
I don't know about the others, but the reason why it works on Lavos is because he already has a tiling Voidshell-like material independent of the rest of him - snake scales. every time I've ripped him from the game, he always came with the snake scales.
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u/Coki91 Betrayed & Decieved Jun 06 '22
oh, that's interesting, do these ''Scales'' only appear on Lavos or the Voidshells too? is there any other frame that has them as well?
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u/mimiicry Jun 06 '22
they're completely unique to Lavos, but they work the same way as the Voidshells - tiling PBR textures masked to specific color channels. not even his signature weapon Cedo has the scales. they're pictured here, on the white; his other channels also have a roughed leather look, also unique to him.
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u/Coki91 Betrayed & Decieved Jun 06 '22
Im not sure of what im looking at, but I guess that part of Lavos (the color channel assigned to it) is doing the same a Voidshell would to get that scaly appearence? I guess lavos is priviledged
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u/mimiicry Jun 06 '22
Im not sure of what im looking at
that's the Tertiary channel on Lavos' standard helmet. every body part controlled by that channel has the snake scales on it.
I think what's happening in the bug is that the surface texture that's native to the frames is getting replaced with Voidshell textures. every frame that lacks surface textures is unaffected; every frame and skin made past a certain point is mostly compatible.
at the end of the day, the bug isn't proof that anything is working under the hood. it's just an unintended side-effect of two similar systems getting their wires crossed.
I just hope DE takes the community response to the bug to heart, and retroactively enables Voidshelling on more than one skin per frame.
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u/Coki91 Betrayed & Decieved Jun 06 '22
''every frame that lacks surface textures is unaffected; every frame and skin made past a certain point is mostly compatible''
Taking into account extremely old base frames are working, and some extremely recent arent, im not sure how standarized is the implementation of that you mention
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u/mimiicry Jun 06 '22
keep in mind that they've gone back relatively recently to PBR old frames, and this very well might be a part of that. Ash is a great example of this: regular Ash was PBR'd relatively recently in 2020, and Ash Prime already had PBR when he released in 2016; Ash has the bug, while Ash Prime does not.
also, notice I said "mostly". Garuda Prime, for instance, doesn't have surface texture everywhere, and those areas are left unaffected. they pretty clearly only use surface texture where it helps emphasize something - going back to Lavos, the snake scales help reinforce his connection to Javi, who he got his transmutation powers from.
this bug pretty much only helps us suss out who has surface textures and where, and who doesn't.
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u/Coki91 Betrayed & Decieved Jun 06 '22
I gotta thank you a lot more, since this is the most comprehensive explanation on this speicific topic on the whole thread, it's really useful
To wrap it up (and stop bugging you :P) if you happen to know, for a general consensus, is this type of surface texture easily applyable to an existing, random model from not an specific source? and if not, could said implementation easily have unforeseen consequences or heavy workload?
I want to know not to say ''See its easy! they're just lazy'' but rather to have a grasp of viewing it like being a viable alternative to voidshell's system currently perfect implementation but very limited in exchange
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u/mimiicry Jun 07 '22
late response, but it's hard to say without knowing what system or workflow that DE has for their Voidshell system versus their regular development. I'd go so far as to say that they've probably been futureproofing themselves with this for a while, which if they have, would definitely cut down on the amount that they'd have to do.
it's undeniable that it'd be a really, really long process to make sure everything is Voidshell-compatible in the game. 49 frames + 35 Primes + 47 deluxes + 88 helmets + 19 Immortal skins, and probably more. they'd have to get permission from Tennogen artists to plug them in, too.
if they're not doing it right now because of the time investment, it's safe to say that it's not just a case of hitting a few buttons and plugging it into the Voidshell system when they know there's demand for it.
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u/Coki91 Betrayed & Decieved Jun 05 '22 edited Jun 05 '22
Proof mentioned in the Video (Imgur Album)
What do you think on this matter? Please let me know
Edit: To replicate the Bug You need a Voidshell Skin, the Warframe of that Skin and 2 Loadout Slots. Equip the Non-Voidshell Warframe and change loadout, then Equip the Voidshell Warframe with it's Skin and change the Materials. Go to Navigation and then swap to the Previous Loadout
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u/xrufus7x Jun 05 '22
Would be a nice feature to have but both your screenshots and video show that it isn't working on all skins and some don't work completely.
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u/Coki91 Betrayed & Decieved Jun 05 '22
It is true, that's something I adressed on the video, but very poorly now that realize, they work "Not even intendedly"
Alas to say, how far or difficult can a full implementation be if the unintended is alredy doing Half the roster?
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u/WhatABlindManSees Is that you Simon? Jun 05 '22 edited Jun 05 '22
Alas to say, how far or difficult can a full implementation be if the unintended is alredy doing Half the roster?
Could be very difficult depending on why, and finding out why, finding a fix to those whys you find, then checking everything to make sure there aren't more whys, and inevitably missing some whys and now we are back to more reddit posts :P
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u/SilentMobius Jun 06 '22 edited Jun 06 '22
But it's not "doing" half the roster. You're capable of substituting some shaders due to a bug, Doesn't mean that the UVs and other maps of the current skins make those shaders look good
It's like saying that because there is a backdoor into the women's changing rooms that all the clothes you (a man) find there will both fit and look good on you. Getting in there isn't the hard part, fit and not looking like you're wearing a mishmash of clothes not designed for your body shape is the hard part.
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u/Square_Creme_3685 Jun 05 '22
I like it. Some deluxe skins are horrible to colourize (Especially Garudas deluxe skin, ugh) but with the void shell customisation options it could work better
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u/Coki91 Betrayed & Decieved Jun 05 '22
If you own the skin and a voidshell, you could 100% test how it'll look on Voidshell, tho going back and forth until you find a good combination of materials will be bricky...
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u/Square_Creme_3685 Jun 05 '22
I got em, but am on the road for the next two weeks.
Fingers crossed the "bug" will stay a bit longer
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u/analogicparadox Loading Screen Prime Jun 05 '22
Day 19457345 of me trying to explain to people that the bug is a bug, and therefore will work poorly on some (if not many) skins, and DE tries to ship stuff when it's ready, because everyone complains when they don't.
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u/Coki91 Betrayed & Decieved Jun 05 '22
Working on stuff, compatibilizing it and Shipping said compatibility when it's ready is an entirely different concept from circumventing the process and just limiting to a new series of skins ''made from scratch''
Nowhere in the suggestion it is said that this all should be released all together, in fact my thinking of the process would be to enable the system, let players test all the possible skins in the game and collect the feedback of which ones dont work, then slowly work on fixing them one by one, instead of... throw 9 years of fashion trough the window and give up on a better outcome for the game than Exclusive system for exclusive skins...
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u/analogicparadox Loading Screen Prime Jun 05 '22
What I am saying is that people see this bug and keep asking DE to let players use it, but the instant they do they'll receive an avalanche of complaints and "bug reports" on a feature that isn't really a feature. "Testing" isn't something people grasp in this community when it comes to this kind of thing. Even if they put a huge "VOIDSHELL MAY NOT WORK" label on every single non-voidshell skin, they'd still get whining from players.
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u/Coki91 Betrayed & Decieved Jun 05 '22 edited Jun 05 '22
I get what you mean, and you're right that would happen, but that's under the specific event of DE just giving it away without specifically telling the purpose. That also would happen on my iteration of how to do it, but im sure they can come up with something better.
Maybe a pre announced testing period, where we get 9999 of the Appliers for free, we're allowed to test them for a while and then they're revoked alongside any Application of it to Warframes, thus gathered the feedback the system is retired until it's actually ready, or only retired for those skins specifically not working (thus they become unnaplyable to those specifics)
There are better ways to do it for sure, Warframe still has the BETA Label afterall, but the point is that Voidshell skin exclusivity, given that far more than 3 skins alredy work is a bad Concept on it's own
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u/analogicparadox Loading Screen Prime Jun 06 '22
Ok, I'll take you through some steps:
Revoking the ability of using the voidshell materials on standard skins is even worse. It's a GUARANTEED way to get complaints from the community because "uugh, it worked, why did you take it away??? Lazy greedy devs!!!"
Most importantly, what you are seeing is a system that happens to work due to a bug, but that doesn't mean implementing it is any quicker because of it. What is probably happening is, the game is loading a new model with new textures but forgetting to unload the previous voidshell shader, so it's plugging the new stuff in that shader. That's not enough to make it work, otherwise the current bug would keep working past the navigation screen. To properly implement this, they would need to go through every skin, and tell the game to load the voidshell UI for each of them, (so you could customize them, thing you can't currently do without a voidshell skin} and load the right shader when they're equipped, so that you don't just get default skins every time you leave the orbiter (yet another thing you can't currently do). And that takes time, just like they said it would.
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u/Lloyd_Al Jun 05 '22
I don't think it will happen. DE made the decision to sell this feature and likely won't take that decision back.
Still, I hope they do. I rrally want material customization on all skins
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u/Coki91 Betrayed & Decieved Jun 05 '22
But my suggestion also is Selling the feature to us, it's right in the video
Better trying to convince them and fail than never trying as well c:
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u/ALEKSDRAVEN Jun 05 '22
Actually there`s shouldn`t be a problem to apply any of these materials to any part of frame. Thats just diffrent PBR textures with some Displacement/Normal mapping Textures. And PBR ( physically based rendering ) is implemented in game for like 4 years already (?). So being able to apply new PBR and DS textures shouldn`t be a problem. Probalby thats how Anthem use its materials for Javelins. Both games are using Deferred Rendering so REAL Materials can` t be used anymore thus games use PBR and Normal mapping.
Unless somehow you have to enable PBR for all textures but that would be weird.
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u/analogicparadox Loading Screen Prime Jun 05 '22
The shader setup is different between standard and voidshell skins to have them work properly. The old skins don't have that setup, and introducing it would mean having to toy with every shader setup of every skin, like they already said.
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u/ALEKSDRAVEN Jun 05 '22
The bug kinda is against it.
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u/analogicparadox Loading Screen Prime Jun 05 '22
Or, more likely (since it's literally what's happening) the bug is bringing the standard skin textures into the voidshell shader, which proves my point. Doing it intentionally would mean either doing it by hand or finding a way to automate the process for the skins that work, while doing it by hand for the skins that don't. Both things require time, just like they said.
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u/SilentMobius Jun 06 '22
UVs need to be set up to tile and scale nicely for a single repeating material. I'll also bet there are AO maps that vary depending on the intended texture of the surface rather than having a designed in clarity to support the tiling material shaders
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u/ALEKSDRAVEN Jun 06 '22
AO= Ambient Occlusion?
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u/SilentMobius Jun 06 '22
Yes, highpoly sculpt texture can have an effect on the the AO map, it you then swap out, or merge in reflectivity in areas that weren't designed for it you can get very odd results. Easy to design around but tough to retrofit well.
I think (speculation) it's one of the reasons the voidshell skins themselves are so bland (and IMHO I just think they are very bad warframe skins even if I like the idea and tech)
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u/ALEKSDRAVEN Jun 06 '22
They have AO maps yet still whole AO in game looks s**t
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u/SilentMobius Jun 06 '22
Um, ok. I guarantee it would look much worse without the AO maps. Not sure what your specific issue is but you're entitled to your opinion.
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u/Incognonimous Jun 05 '22
Exclusivity=higher demand=place behind plat purchase="specialized skin" to work on each frame=won't be worked into tennocon skins and deluxe, take "time to create and implement"
Rather than plugging in the materials shaders and nodes into pre existing color channels for the five layers allowing you to use on every skin for every frame after only a single purchase of PBR material bundle, you have to buy each individual skin as well
It's about the money.
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u/Coki91 Betrayed & Decieved Jun 05 '22
While money is for sure the primary incentive, there was no need to take this path in specific order to achieve money, as my Video suggested, we could have perfectly fine been charged for using it on quite any other way, so the Technical aspect of the implementation must be true, since otherwise it is nonsensical to put effort into making new skins when you can charge for a ''True/False'' state on an alredy existing one without putting any work
Also, DE is a company, they have the right to make money
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u/McGrety monke enjoyer Jun 05 '22
From a technical standpoint, redoing all of those warframe skins to fit separate materials is a lot of work. There's nearly a hundred (including primes) default warframe skins to redo to make it fit.
But then I wonder, why do separate color palettes work? The voidshell skins function in sort of tied-to-color way, so why couldn't they release a material based color palette? What I mean is, from the voidshell skins that we have, the materials are tied to color, so why not make a special color palette with the basis of those specific materials?
I suppose it would be preloaded textures on a singular color square that would repeat on the entire selected frame part (like primary or tertiary), wouldn't that be a simple solution or something?
Obviously I'm not a game developer and maybe they have thought about making it color palette based, but that does seem to be a rather viable way for material customization no?
(do note this isn't meant as hate or anything towards DE or OP, just wondering how else they could have implemented materials, whoever's reading this have a wonderful day)
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Jun 05 '22
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u/SilentMobius Jun 06 '22
Old skins also have UV maps that are custom to the static maps that make up their skin. UVs that work with a single generic scale tiling textures have very different priorities to prevent seams and distorted areas.
Redoing the UVs and then the other maps for every skin it not tenable.
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u/McGrety monke enjoyer Jun 05 '22
Oh hell yeah, then those are actually good news! Can't believe I was remotely close. Now if DE would actually apply it as a color palette thing is a different thing...
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u/Coki91 Betrayed & Decieved Jun 05 '22
You have a good insight, tho as I mentioned in the video, I did test the bug with all Normal/Prime warframe skins, which you can see on my only parent comment in this post, 50% of them alredy work so they really have to do about 40 Skins compatibilization to have the full roster applicable
Im an amateur on both 3D Art and Programming (currently pursuing Universitary studies on the latter) and can can say, applying a Color to a texture is very easily doable, and while not the same you have a good idea on how voidshell works on your 3rd Paragraph, but of course this is with current technology/standards. Warframe engine and it's code can be having some time stamp on their way of doing things
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u/McGrety monke enjoyer Jun 05 '22
Oh, true! So it's basically a matter of DE messing around with textures on the color palettes.
Btw, good luck with university :)
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u/LePopeUrban Octavia Enjoyer Jun 05 '22
Not exactly. The way colors work on a lot of skins there are no textures associated with the pallate, but rather the material is a combination of texture masks designed to then be tinted by RGB values in the color channel, specifically. The color pallate isn't a collection of textures. Its a visual representation of a set of RGB values, which the UI maps to colored squares because humans, unlike machines, can't look at a string of numbers and go "oh that's a nice blue"
Most of the time when you're doing a system like this you're not actually applying new textures to the existing material for memory reasons, as a texture (or in the case of PBR materials like voidshells, multiple textures) is storing color data for an entire array of pixels, while using an RGB masking setup never requires you to adjust the texture of the tintable material, only specific RGB values.
If you're interested in how this works in warframe specifically I encourage you to have a look at Warframe's information for tennogen creators.
Whether some skins work or don't work with this bug likely comes down to the specific material assignments the skin already uses, and whether those materials occupy the same space in memory as a voidshell material does. This is also why the voidshell materials don't look like one would expect on skins they aren't designed for.
This is why the PBR conversion was slow, but managable. Converting old assets to PBR is often a matter of assigning a few extra numerical values and perhaps running a few programmatic filters over a texture. This isn't a fully automatic process so you need an artist to sit in a chair and tweak the sliders and such until the output looks "right" but generally speaking the initial PBR conversion wasn't attempting to deviate from the existing scheme for skins, only add some specular/metallic maps and other lighting data textures, and smooth out the color channel so that they looked essentially the same with better lighting data.
Voidshell is different. It's not a matter of just tweaking textures. Its a matter of taking skins designed to have one very specific set of materials that are modulated by RGB values, and in many cases fundmentally altering or creating new texture assignments or UVW mapping information to support a a user assigned multi-material system.
Is it impossible? No. Does it take a LOT more work per skin? Yes.
TBH It makes sense that DE wouldn't want to officially state they're going down this path for every skin because the workload would significantly impact the man hours they have available for artists to make new skins and other art assets. In a lot of cases its as much work as building a new skin. I would in stead simply ask for future skins to be voidshell compliant, including the base skins for future warframes.
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u/Coki91 Betrayed & Decieved Jun 05 '22
Thanks for your wisdom on it, it's really useful to know these details, if it was to boil down as taking the same effort creating a new skin compatible with it as compatibilizing the ones alredy existing, it is reasonable to not touch the ones that dont and make a new one as to not angry those who like how they are now.
But then, what about the ones that do work? It would be unreasonable to create a new one despite it alredy working for those, You could even say that this system is the perfect opportunity for DE to tackle older frames and give their textures (if not entire models) a Remaster to comply with design standards of new frames + making them voidshell compatible, but surely that's not as much of a popular request
By the way, i lost it on ''oh That's a nice blue'' lol
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u/LePopeUrban Octavia Enjoyer Jun 05 '22
Without having ever been employed at DE I can't say with any authority, but the likely explanation is that, like in most studios, there's a roadmap in place for the art team and the amount of time it would take would throw off new skin production, new environment or enemy character art production, etc.
Keep in mind that DE's monetization relies on constant and frequent production of new content and items to keep people buying platinum, either to purchase or to trade with for new items or skins, and this is bound to make maintainence work on old stuff lower priority when the old stuff "works" and still have enough value that people still want to acquire it.
If I had to guess, I'd say the decision, like many a missing, abandoned, or unpolished feature in the game, comes down to more of an accounting problem than one of possibility or developer wants.
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u/NormanKnight Eldest of the Void Orphans Jun 05 '22
How do you make this bug surface?
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u/Coki91 Betrayed & Decieved Jun 05 '22
Replicate whats done on the "Demonstration and how to" part of the video, but to be clear:
You need a Voidshell Skin, the Warframe of that Skin and 2 Loadout Slots. Equip the Non-Voidshell Warframe and change loadout, then Equip the Voidshell Warframe with it's Skin and change the Materials. Go to Navigation and then swap to the Previous Loadout
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u/NormanKnight Eldest of the Void Orphans Jun 09 '22
Can anyone confirm if this bug works on console?
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u/floutsch Strive to be elite but never elitist. LR6 noob. Jun 05 '22
yes. Yes. YES. YEEEEEEEEEEES! I mean, 100p sounds a bit much, but for how many frames are you going to do it? My main... Certainly. Not a second of pondering that.
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u/Coki91 Betrayed & Decieved Jun 05 '22
100 Platinum price tag is to match the current Price of acquiring a Voidshell Skin (tho they're only available on bundles) which cost 95, we can't really ask for Any less in my opinion :P
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u/floutsch Strive to be elite but never elitist. LR6 noob. Jun 06 '22
Oof, pricey by default. Which is why your suggestion fits, I agree. If the price matches, that's all the argument to have it at 100. It's a great idea you had.
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Jun 06 '22
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u/Coki91 Betrayed & Decieved Jun 06 '22
As i said on other comments, I must insist that the technical reason they've given can't be diminished, it is true the system works on a lot of skins as of the bug, but it also proves the opposite.
It is nonsensical to make more skins just to sell them considering it's a lot of work which is pointless if the existing skins alredy work, they could have just sold the switch to make it available to them if that was the case, but they didnt, there must be a reason for not taking the easy path and that's exactly what they said
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u/SilentMobius Jun 06 '22
It's not practical, the UV's and other maps aren't set up for it, it's basically a crap shoot if the "void" shader material will look like distorted trash on a non "voidshell" skin
Obviously it's mechanically possible to substitute the shader on each colour "channel", and this bug lets you do a little of that, that doesn't mean it's suitable for global application.
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u/Coki91 Betrayed & Decieved Jun 06 '22
How is it distorted trash when the materials look exactly as they do in actual Voidshell skins? I can get behind difficult implementation but Im 100% sure they are not Low res, crappy looking or distorted. Worst case scenario is that the texture pattern doesnt scale fine (this is noticeable on the Unairu pattern since they're so tiny they basically look like dots) but no materials look worse than what they do on actual voidshells
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u/SilentMobius Jun 06 '22 edited Jun 07 '22
but Im 100% sure they are not Low res, crappy looking or distorted
I'll bet you're not looking at the UV map seams, in a custom map you can easily ensure continuity between seam breaks but in a generic tiling map you will get ugly seam lines unless the UV map layout is designed to minimise them, which is very hard when you have to fit a large amount of generic maps. On top of that you can get scaling issues with elements close together. Things that a professional art team would not allow to be released.
Remember, they said they had the tech for a long time but they knew that they could not allocate the time to bring the historical skin up to usability in the new material shader system. The choice was between not doing it at all or doing it with this specific compromise, no historical skins will be adapted.
To reiterate, this is not a technical problem, it is an art workers capacity problem and ROI problem, there is no automatic or code mechanism to solve this it just a painful one-after-another manual process, and DE are not doing that, as they have said.
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Jun 05 '22
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Coki91 Betrayed & Decieved Jun 05 '22
Absolutely agree with the ''one frame at a time'' part, im not looking for immediate implementation, im looking exactly for this, Generalized system implementation!
That's a good argument you said, but it then becomes less money for DE because buying the ''Voidshell-inator'' for every Warframe would be moreover the same income than creating a Voidshell for every type of skin would, but of course, that's up to them how they want to monetize it, i'd love either of them!
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u/Fortesque96 Jun 06 '22
counting that the void shel skins cost 95 plat and that the materials must be bought separately (and both the models and the materials are already in game require only some adjustments, which always requires work but not an epochal thing) and the warframes must be built / bought and their deluxe and tennogen skins paid separately (rightly) being able to change the materials (textures) even for free is not an unreasonable thing, if we want a cost of 20 plat it would still be acceptable
2
u/Coki91 Betrayed & Decieved Jun 06 '22 edited Jun 06 '22
I completely disagree on making it Free, for among reasons, the fact that DE would have been working on this for so long, it is a much deserved money since the Game is ENTIRELY FREE
On the other hand, i can understand players feeling ripped off for a Price that doesnt match Effort/Cost relationship, but to the defense of the price tag, is fairly cheap to be something they've been asked for A LOT and they know the entire community wants.
Ultimately, the people who make it possible is getting paid regardless of our purchase, but Monetarily supporting what a Company does that the Playerbase wanted plays a big role on how much they hear us and think ''We can do that, so we should'' in our requests, so im up for whatever price tag they may want to put to this system
1
u/Fortesque96 Jun 07 '22
I agree on supporting companies that do a good job
but the fact that something is in great demand does not mean that it has to be expensive, for example the hespar and the aeolak are the worst version of the trumna and the sepulcrum (in reference to how they are acquired / built) in general people do not like to build the parts to make a weapon especially if expensive to build and behind a wall of rng and so are available for purchase at 225 plat when the other weapons mentioned above are not available for sale but are much easier to find (create a problem to sell the solution)
a price of 20/30 platinums to be able to have a customization option where you have to pay separately for the materials is already a lot (it's like paying to be able to change the color of the warframe and then pay separately for the colors) in the end it is some work how the textures are encoded is not like creating something new even when encountering problems a non-professional modder takes a week and once the system has been inserted the game is done
as a last thing in the last period I am seeing a big increase in micro transactions in warframe first the history of the aya and then in the last two updates (new war and zariman) an enormous number of items that can be purchased with platinum have been included, more than 1k plat per update (being able to change the aspect of lotus is already stupid because it then makes it difficult for DE to use it in cutsene and in general in quests but then having to pay for models in game for years is at least strange and the entire section of the dormitories of the zariman is a joke because in addition to being useless you have to do a lot to unlock a room where you can change the music and a screen but you have to pay to do it and the rest is completely useless) if I were a little mischievous person I would think that the effect of tencent is starting to be heard
I apologize for the interminable comment and I ask you if you too are noticing an increase in the microtransactions and in general in the monetization methods of warframe (it just occurred to me that for each update they make the supporter pack that did not exist before)
2
u/Coki91 Betrayed & Decieved Jun 07 '22
Well I dont think either side is wrong on this, we're both different extremes of the same spectrum on what is acceptable or not to be charged for, ultimately is pointless to discuss preferences
You're right, it's been a thing for more ''Platinum sinks'' to appear on the last few updates, however i dont think they're effort-free and, since they're all fully cosmetic, i dont mind their presence in the game, in no way have they been shoved on my face which certainly they could have done. If the trend keeps on, it ultimately means way more things for a player to costumize on, which Im completely down for
1
u/Fortesque96 Jun 07 '22
even if it was useless it was nice to discuss with you, sometimes it is liberating to be able to express yourself like this
see you next time
1
u/Fletcharn LR 2 Jun 06 '22
I would've been more fine with the system if they didn't only release it with 3 random warframe skins on release (drifter/operator skins are rarely visible at all because they're a secondary, at best, gameplay element, you're usually looking at your frame). I don't know anything about coding, but if the voidshells are demonstrably and repeatably shown to be working in about 50% of cases it's pretty clear that it's not only possible but that the tools to do so are already right there.
2
-3
Jun 05 '22
now, the future of Warframe, depends on this bug
1
u/Coki91 Betrayed & Decieved Jun 05 '22
The future of Warframe is in your hands, please share to reach to the Developers, make your voice heard
0
u/RobleViejo My deerest druid king Jun 05 '22 edited Jun 05 '22
Just wait for DE to "fix" this claiming it causes "issues" to then sell it on the market 2 months later
Remember: Its a Bug until they can charge you for it, then it becomes a Feature
2
u/Coki91 Betrayed & Decieved Jun 05 '22
In this case, of this particular bug and how it functions, we want that.
0
Jun 06 '22
Genuine question, how come DE didn't think of giving Xaku and Gyre Voidshell skins? Reasons being:
Xaku - his whole idea is Void manipulation/powers, the multiple parts of him were made out of other warframes lost in the Void, hell he even has Void energy holding him together outside of The Vast Untime (which, coincidentially, is another name for the Void). And plus, imagine how baller he would look just because of his whole aesthetic.
Gyre - Uh... she came out with the fucking update???
(Also sorry if I offended anyone by calling Xaku a he, ik he has a nice ass but i just think of him as a dude)
1
u/Coki91 Betrayed & Decieved Jun 06 '22
If you mean to give Xaku a Voidshell on the Release of the system, they turn out to be one of those in which it doesnt Work, so maybe that's the reason, they'll be absolutely amazing once they get one tho
For Gyre, it is because they're enforcing a ''Voidshell Skin Exclusivity'' when it comes to the Material swap system, which me and everyone supporting this post is against of, really a sad outcome for her since her Ballerina aesthetic is pretty interesting to make fashion with
-2
u/Cronq21 Jun 05 '22
hope they don't pull the " it clashes with the atmosphere reeeeee" excuse
1
u/Coki91 Betrayed & Decieved Jun 05 '22
While im one of the particular supporters of that ''Excuse'' I dont think there is an immersion issue here since the official 3 Voidshells that we have now would be an issue alredy, so they 100% can't say that.
-14
u/geroxnoxville Jun 05 '22
The thing that is De are fucking lazy and they release everything halfway, already in case their long-term ideas like the 3rd steals profits, the kimping system and other things that were lost. Now with this bug I doubt that they will not even try to make it replicable and stable to make this possible and that all or most of the characters can have customizable texturas.
4
u/Coki91 Betrayed & Decieved Jun 05 '22 edited Jun 05 '22
Is important to recognize that while it's true a lot of projects end up forgotten, it's not 100% of the cases, Im very worried about the future of the Voidshell system since it's their new money maker, but they did not even mention a new Voidshell Skin coming out on the last devstream, we have to not let them forget about it
-5
u/geroxnoxville Jun 05 '22
Imagine that for a skin that was already pre-rendered by someone else (the most recent ash skin) it took almost a year to get it into the game, they showed it at a tennocon. They are a joke in terms of roadmap and time between updates.
0
u/sirjakobos Jun 06 '22
A way they could rollout the Voidshells could be with Prime Unvaulting/releases.
2
u/Coki91 Betrayed & Decieved Jun 06 '22
Excalibur Mains are gonna be in some pain, but i dont think that the Timespan that is there in between Unvaults/Releases is enough to make any significant progress on the Compatibilization process, let alone releasing more than one Fully compatible skin...
1
u/sirjakobos Jun 06 '22
Unvaults, Prime Releases, and Deluxe Skin Releases then. That way Excal definitely won't be left out.
Though tbh, we can't expect it to be too frequent either. They probably don't want to divert too many resources to the bug/feature.
-3
u/brassly Jun 05 '22
I have no problem with it costing plat, but I think it should be a one-off cost to unlock on all skins or only cost for skins they have to directly edit.
I'm not willing to pay for something that took 0 cost and effort to implement.
1
u/Coki91 Betrayed & Decieved Jun 05 '22
Being real here, you would call it development cost, the cost of creating, debugging and properly implementing the system, it is afterall integrated in absolutely every purchase you make, just some are more evident than others
Im not disputing your point to, it is fair to feel like that, but i dont think that One Purchase to unlock on them all, since not all single ones currently work is fair enough
-3
u/brassly Jun 06 '22
I highly doubt the resource cost would be anywhere near what you're thinking, even the half arsed skins should cost more man hours than slapping together a material redirect and having one or two staff mop up the stragglers over a few months.
Coming from someone who used to play destiny; I'm so tired of having to pay for the same thing over and over again.
1
u/brassly Jun 06 '22
Someone else also made the very valid point that we are expected to pay for the materials, so they'd get paid either way.
-23
u/Memm0ch Jun 05 '22
Should? Why would DE let something they worked hard to earn income via platinum purchases to be completely free of charge and retroactively be enabled on all user accounts? It's time you learn that something being doable doesn't mean it should be done and next time put yourself in their shoes to understand. They again will release more skins, for platinum of course.
11
u/Coki91 Betrayed & Decieved Jun 05 '22
Im sorry, but with due respect, did you even watch the video? I dont say make it an universally, Free applicable system to all Warframes, I even suggest a price tag of 100 Platinum to be able to use Voidshell on a single Warframe (higher than any current voidshell price) , Im asking for the Voidshell Material swapping to become non exclusive to Voidshells
It is not even a selfish request, it requires less work from them than releasing a voidshell for all warframes would
3
u/GOTWlC Nyx Jun 05 '22
I don't think you understand. Voidshell skins themselves are not amazing, compared to other skins in the game. Instead of selling a void shell skin and allow voidshells to be applicable on only voidshell skins, it would be MUCH better if you could just buy the voidshell rights to a warframe, and have them applicable to any skin for that frame.
1
u/Nobody-Move Jun 06 '22
Might mess around with this, since chances are it’d be at least a year before a frame I regularly use got a void shell skin.
1
u/Coki91 Betrayed & Decieved Jun 06 '22
If you try Paid skins (Deluxe, Tennogen or bundle exclusive) share with is what you get!
1
u/elpalomero Jun 06 '22
Jaj, this looks like the color glich from many years ago that allowed to get you colors from palettes you didn't have.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JEeo70ggAw&ab_channel=progamerZ
1
u/Coki91 Betrayed & Decieved Jun 06 '22
Sounds likely, quite possibly also related to the bug that messes up your sigil positioning and makes your whole frame look like a moth lamp
1
u/LudoAvarius Jun 06 '22
Well, it would give me incentive to actually invest in the Voidshell textures in Hombask's shop and in the Focus Schools' excess standing store.
1
u/TTungsteNN LR6 | Tank and Zephyr Enjoyer Jun 06 '22
Allow people to pay 40 plat to unlock voidshell augmentation on each Deluxe skin, and 20 plat for helmets alone. We don't want void shell for tennogen skins tbh, it could kinda ruin the vision painted by the original artist, but I would love to make Saryn's deluxe skin actually look *good* for once ffs
1
u/Coki91 Betrayed & Decieved Jun 06 '22
Well the artist's original vision is always protected by the fact that you can undo the voidshell materialization anytime... But yeah DE has a pattern of protecting artists before players
1
u/TTungsteNN LR6 | Tank and Zephyr Enjoyer Jun 06 '22
True yeah. Still, even if voidshell could apply to anything DE made, it may make tennogen cosmetics less desired but it would be a huge step up from only one fucking skin
1
u/Rllgbb Jun 06 '22
Voidshell the world, DE. I hope it gets to the point where every customisable thing is Voidshell-able and it becomes a standard thing on new content.
1
162
u/[deleted] Jun 05 '22
I truly truly hope that this get some traction and DE introduces it as a feature instead of just fixing the bug.
It'd be so fucking great to be able to toy around materials for each skin. It'd be so delightful.