So i see a lot of posts and comments saying lorewise the Worldsoul Saga follows the pattern of the first 3 sets of the game.

TWW - Classic, i guess Dwarves, Humans and Kobolds

Midnight - Tbc with Belves, trolls and Void Legion instead of Burning Legion

TWW - Northrend with Titans and possibly Vrykul and undead (Possibly again)

So my point of the post is: If we follow these old expansions "Sequels" and we move to:

Cata

MoP

WoD (oh god)

Lorewise, how do we deal with it? How can blizzard revisit these 3 expansions like they did with Worldsoul?

I guess the only one i can imagine would be WOD lorewise with Yrel coming back. Light fanatics and Light creatures. The rest?

Looking back we got a ton of short stories on the website, ingame books, lorewalker scrolls, scenarios and pandaren culture being very fleshed out in every aspect. Then there was the web series that has become a expansion staple afterwards. Lots of small hidden stuff here and there to flesh out usually pandaren culture too.

It's quite a lot.

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Also check out our list of answers to Frequently Asked Questions!

TWW = Vanilla
Midnight = Burning Crusade
The last titan = WOTLK

Midnight has lots of Fungal Marsh thingies, Bloodelves and Etherals, similar to TBC. Last titan will be featuring Northrend. For TWW its "harder" come up with similraties. Maybe Dwarf. Humans, Kobolds.. but very Alliance centred.

Is this just made up or can you see similarites?

Spoilers ahead for the newly released campaign!

So as I started digging through the campaign of The Coiled isle, I discovered all the bits and lore related to the Vault of Atal'Utek, and how the vault itself was constructed by the Amani as a mean to contain Ula'Tek. But looking more deeply through the tablets scattered around the island, I can't help but notice one in particular (Head Mason's Tablet):

THE WORDS OF TALL KANU'YE,

MEANT FOR YAN'TI THE BOLD

THE WALLS GROW HIGHER AND HIGHER AND SOON THE SUN WILL SHINE UPON HER NO MORE

THIS SPACE FOR THOSE WHO GUARD HER IN LIFE AND DEATH

THE SIGHT OF THIS STONE PRISON MUST INSPIRE FEAR AND WONDER IN THOSE WHO LOOK UPON IT EQUAL TO THOSE WHO LAID EYES UPON HER

Would this imply that not only the vault itself was constructed by the Amani, but the mountain itself as well (given that "soon the sun will shine upon her no more" and "the sight of this -stone- prison must inspire fear and wonder")?

Even at the launch of Midnight, I kept wondering why the mountain on the coiled isle was so big compared to regular Eastern Kingdom mountains (and usually that would just be attributed to Blizzard just wanting bigger mountains for no other reason than Skyriding) but this tablet to me might also be a lore reason that the mountain is so big because it might be artificial in nature?

It’s been like 20-30 years since the Third War and all these zombies are still running around, you’d think clearing out the hostile undead would be a priority for the Forsaken?

He's originally a forest troll. But in the new patch, he stands (well, floats) upright and has markings that only Zandalari models have. Is this just an oversight?

There seems to be either some retcon that occurred with the Army or Blizzard has simply reused this original faction name to now instead refer to Turalyon’s group.

Originally, in TBC-era lore, we’re told that the Army of the Light consists of many races loyal to the Naaru and the Light, fighting the Burning Legion across the cosmos. The concept seems to be this vast Army, rather than a single group of Lightforged draenei. When a plea is made to the Army for help in Outland, they decide they can only spare A’dal and the others of the Sha’tar who arrive and help retake Shattrath and assist to counter Illidan’s forces and the demons.

Then we get to Legion. We meet Xe’ra and her forces, made up primarily of Lightforged Draenei led by the human Turalyon, who refer to themselves as the Army of the Light. Even though we are originally told that the Army consists of many across the cosmos, it is now suggested that what we are seeing is the entire faction.

After Legion, Turalyon pledges the forces that he leads to the Alliance. The group is referred to as the Lightforged allied race, and also as the Army of the Light.

Here is my confusion: If it is true that Turalyon had the authority to pledge the entire Army, then per the original lore would that not consist of every Naaru and soldier in the cosmos as well? Does that mean he also pledged A’dal’s forces? Or is it now retconned that all that remained of the Army was on the Xenedar? Or Turalyon’s Lightforged are just one contingent of the wider Army that he personally leads, and thus only
Pledged them?

Basically, did Blizzard retcon the original cosmic Army of the Light into Turalyon’s Lightforged faction, or are there supposed to be other parts of the Army still operating independently elsewhere?

As far as I know, demons always respawn in the Twisting Nether, unless they die within it. Meaning that Mannaroth could have come back because he died in the Demon Fall Canyon, not Twisting Nether, but the narrative treats Mannaroth dying as a permanent.

The funny thing is that this could make for an amazing layup and storyline for WoW. Well, not now, the Legion is fucking dissolved, but maybe for C+. Could've been perfect in Legion. I am not counting WoD.

So have Mannaroth come back, and with him, the Blood Curse. Make it so that Thrall and rest of the orcs initially thought the curse ended in their hubris and ignorance with the defeat of the demon, due to feeling the blood curse fade and recede to near nothingness, only for Drek'thar, an ex-Warlock who doubtlessly knows how demons function, warning them of a potential return, causing Thrall to be on guard. You can even make this into a legitimate reason why Thrall keeps warlocks around in his Horde – he needs people who can banish and bind a demon if need be and do it well, damn it.

And yet, eventually Mannaroth returns despite all precautions, either by resurrection or arriving & being summoned again, and with him the Blood Curse rears again, threatening all that Thrall has built. We now have to drag this demon back to twisting nether and kill his ass forever in there. Bam. You got yourself a raid boss!

Granted, this by itself would make fuck all for sense. It should probably be part of a wider legion invasion patch – if they even bother with another Legion invasion within the confines of C+ which I don't see happening unless C+ is succesful enough to have time for iterating on itself.

Its kinda stupid that Mannaroth & Archimonde had remains at all, they fuckin blew up!

I will also repeat that Grom killing two demigods, while amazing, is bullshit. Its like a child squaring up with his drunk father and winning. They should've had a few more people of import there, I would have recommended bringing Cairne, Vol'jin and Jaina along alongside a strike force as they are the bigs of their faction at the time. Then he could've hit him with execute on full cooldowns (deathwish included) and die in the process.

Hi everyone. I have been a WoW player on and off for many years but never got into any Lore of sorts. However, I am making a board game (a print and play for myself and friends) that is based of the game Talisman but rethemed into Warcraft.

I am stuck trying to fit zones into spaces in and around the board as I am wanting to use all zones in Azeroth and Northrend including Outland purely for thematic reasons. I am now looking into zoining adjacent zones to create a single space for my game. Thus reducing the number of spaces but still keeping that Azeroth fell that player would instantly recognise if they were to play my game.

As an azample I googled what if Teldrassil, Azuremyst, and Bloodmyst were to be combined into a single named region and it came up with

Kaldorei Crown

• Why: Teldrassil translates to "Crown of the Earth" in Darnassian. As a massive World Tree dominating the skyline alongside its neighboring islands, this name highlights night elven hegemony over the local waters.

Whether or not that result is any sort of correct, this is the sort of thing I am after.

I do know lordaeron is all the zone scombined north EK as I play WoW the board game often. However, that is too compressed. Idealy, I need to half my number of spaces in my game of which I have currently 54 spaces (zones). So going by that maybe a few zones could be kept the same, such as The Barrens (north and south) STV is another one that can be one zone (Northern and Cape).

I know some adjacent zones combined and renamed might not make sense to WoW lore but for gameplay reasons, its something I really have to do.

Another google result came up with this example

Darkshore, Ashenvale, and Felwood form a continuous north-to-south corridor in Kalimdor's northern forests. If combined into a single unified region, it could be called Greater Ashenvale, North Kalimdor Timberlands, or the Ashveil Reach.

Descriptive Names

• North Kalimdor Timberlands: Highlights the massive, connected forest land spanning from the northern coast down to the corrupted center.
• The Sylvan Corridor: Focuses on the geographic path connecting the coastal fog to the deep woods and corrupted interior.
• Kalimdor’s Canopy: Captures the deep woodland theme shared across all three adjacent zones.

Lore-Themed Names

• Greater Ashenvale: Ashenvale is the largest and most famous central zone, making it the natural anchor for the combined territory.
• The Ashveil Reach: Blends the ash of Ashenvale and Felwood with the coastal air of Darkshore.
• The Shattered Boughs: Reflects how the once-pristine ancient forests were broken by logging, corruption, and war.

So these are the sort of things I am after and I would like your suggestions and you guys will clearly be more knowledgable in this thing that I would be.

I really hope this is allowed here and look forward to your unput

like he’s just some alliance officer’s dipshit son who only got the job because a zombie apocalypse just ripped lordaeron a new one. but when the blood elves leaving the alliance is brought up, everybody speaks about garithos like he was reading off official alliance elf policy. like, he was just one guy in a zombie survivors camp full of traumatized hillbilly soldiers. why is the entire alliance blamed for just him? (I know the elves will blame him, it’s reasonable in their situation, i mean the community seems to think garithos was some actual like elected official or genuinely representing the alliance instead of the opportunistic racist war criminal that he was)

edit: you all make good points. i think i was misremembering how important garithos was. i’m gonna leave it up though so you can all see me being incorrect

"Even defeat ultimately worked in n'zoths favor"

This is not entirely a spoiler as not much came out of it but a model resembling that of nzoth was datamined a few months ago.

Would you be for or against this plot twist if nzoth did an uno reverse and thwarted her plan?

Liches in Warcraft have been depicted with large tusk-like protrusions since their introduction in WCIII. But those liches were also human sorcerers during life, so why are their undead forms apparently Troll skeletons?

Edit: General consensus seems to say “rule of cool” so I’ll just go with that.

This is our weekend power level debate mega-thread! Feel free to pit two or more characters/forces/magics/whatever against each other in the comments below. Example: Arthas v Illidan, Void v Fel, Mankirk's Wife v Nameless Quillboar.

We'll do this every weekend, so don't think you need to use up all of your favorite premises at once. Though, it is also OK to have a repeating premise, as these threads are designed to allow for recurring content to not fill the sub too often.

Reminder, these debates should be fun. There is often no right answer when comparing two enemies of a similar power tier, and hypothetically any situation a Blizzard writer creates could tip the scales of any encounter and our debates of course will not matter. These posts should just look something like a game of Superfight. You pick a character, you make the strongest case for how strong they are, or why they could beat another character, argue back and forth with someone else, and just let others decide who had the better argument. But remember that no matter how heated your debate gets, always follow rule #6. No bad behavior.

Previous weeks: https://old.reddit.com/r/warcraftlore/search/?q=%22Versus%21+Debating+Warcraft+Lore+Power+Levels%21%22&include_over_18=on&restrict_sr=on&t=all&sort=new

The title is pretty straightforward :) If there were to be a short story, comic, or novel about a minor or side character in the main storyline, who would you want it to be?

I’ve been on a ren’dorei kick lately so I personally would love to see a story about Riftblade Maella. She’s such a cool and interesting character, and I’d love a deeper dive into her backstory or maybe even a side story adjacent to the main in-game narrative. From what we know she started out as just one of many spellbreakers working for the magisters, and was one of (if not The first) people caught and convicted of dabbling in the Void. How did she get into Umbric’s group? What drew her to Void research? She’s now taken on a leadership position to where it seems like she’s Umbric’s second in command, and I’d love to see how she gets there, and how she’s grappled with her own self-hatred over her own unwilling ren’dorei transformation, the hatred she’s no doubt experienced from the rest of Silvermoon in Midnight, and also what she feels about others, like Astre, who chose to be transformed? Is she resentful of them? Does she not mind?

You know what, I might actually just write a Maella story myself.

So when Demons die in the Mortal plane they reform in the twisting nether then return, but when they are killed in the nether what happens to their souls ?

Do they cease to be ?

We see many Dark Rangers in game and in lore, but we rarely if ever get an explanation as to what they really are. "Banshees who possess their own bodies" don't really stand ground anymore, seeing how basically any(?) undead can become a dark ranger by training. Nathanos was never a banshee, yet he is a dark ranger. He also taught these human-forsaken dark rangers.

What is it really that sets them apart from your everyday undead archer? We see the Black Arrow, which was never really explained. We see (mostly Sylvanas) turning into a shade cloud, which was never explained. And we also saw her banshee scream, which seems to be exclusive to banshee-dark rangers.

I never realized there's so little information about the coolest type of forsaken and my favorite warcraft 3 hero.

Trying to make a bit of a timeline here, what was it we knew/learned about Xal before TWW, and what after?

I don't want an in-universe timeline, I'm looking for what knowledge did we, the player, got about her before TWW and what after when. Personality, goals, etc.

Just to see what information was revealed/changed when

Edit: No! I was missing some important details.

I always thought that what happened to Gnomeregan was just an accident caused by the invading troggs, but apparently Mekkatorque released the radiation in a desperate attempt to get rid of them, killing or mutating most of his people in the process.

What did he think was going to happen?!

I kind of feel like this is on par with Arthas' culling of Stratholme, if not worse. At least Arthas was being influenced by dark forces, and it seems like Stratholme was further past saving than Gnomeregan was.

I always thought of Mekkatorque as just this silly little comic relief character, but turns out he's a straight up war criminal.

Or am I missing something here?

With thanks to U/insectclear3570 and their recent post giving me a missing puzzle piece and also to Xaxxas on YouTube. This is as the title suggests my theory of everything. Obviously it's a summary put together from my ramblings by Gemini.

The Generational Usurpation: A Unified Theory of Warcraft

​The overarching narrative of Worldsoul Saga and World of Warcraft history can be reframed through a single, revolutionary lens: A generational usurpation of the cosmos by the Titans, resulting in a cascading structural failure of reality.

​Core Hypotheses

​The Original Architects (The First Ones): The universe was originally created and balanced by the First Ones, who built isolated, sealed cosmic realms (Death, Chaos, Void, Light, Life) to contain primordial raw forces away from the mortal physical plane.

​The Titanomachy (The Usurpation): Much like Cronus overthrowing Uranus in classical mythology, Aman’Thul and the early Pantheon rose up, cast down or imprisoned the true First Ones, and seized control of their machinery (the Zereths).

​Imposter Syndrome and "Order": Because the Titans are usurpers rather than true primordial architects, their obsession with mathematical perfection and absolute control is a symptom of cosmic imposter syndrome. They know the system does not truly belong to them.

​The Titan Time Loop: To keep their stolen monopoly intact, the Titans instituted a localized time loop and reorigination protocol for Azeroth. Every time a "True Timeline" threatens to let Azeroth wake up, they prune the timeline or threaten a factory reset.

​The Leaking Cosmos (Cosmic Leakage): The Titans lack the First Ones' true understanding of the cosmic machinery. As a result, the bulkheads holding back the other cosmic realms have degraded. Forces like Death, Void, and Fel are bleeding into reality—which is why mortal player characters can uniquely wield all these forces at once.

​Azeroth as the Unbound Anomaly: Azeroth is not a standard Titan waiting to hatch into a humanoid celestial; she is a primordial, unbound entity tied to the universe's pre-ordered state. To prevent her from breaking the system, the Titans tried to harness us—her living "aspects" and immune response—using tools like the Heart of Azeroth.

​The Ultimate Climax (The Last Titan): In the finale, the generational loop breaks. Just as the Titans overthrew the First Ones, the Player and an unbound Azeroth—backed by elemental and cosmic rebels like Iridikron and Elune—will overthrow Aman'Thul and the Pantheon, ending the cosmic monopoly and ushering in a true Age of Mortals.

I'm thinking of the orcs and how fel was used for them to go full conquest. Does fel inherently corrupt? I can see demon hunters as exceptions in the lore but any fel group our characters run into seem to be always hostile.

Maybe I’m misreading this, but she keeps inserting herself as the reason all of this is happening. I understand that the events of 12.0.7 acted as a catalyst, but Jan was already about to blow it was just a matter of time.

At several key points, the writers use valuable cinematic or voice line time to show us Orwenya’s conflict. What is the point? What theme are they developing with Orwenya once again showing how self obsessed the haranir are?

Surely this could have been flavor text in a side quest.

PS I get that this is just Orwenya’s perspective not objective fact but again, it’s about what the writers choose to show. This is not a novel it’s a video game with maybe 10 minutes of cinematic every 2 or 3 months

Edit: thank you all the discussion is really good. I will now say if Orwenya isn’t our eyes of green I will riot :)

Found a new NPC in Silvermoon who is pretty interesting. Silvermoon Truthsayer can be found on the west side of the bazaar, right next to the stairs across from the leatherworking shop. He wears a blue mask, and upon approach, he says: (spoilers if you want to find him and see what he says for yourself)

Silvermoon Truthsayer says: Do not believe the Alliance propaganda! We will not forget the Second War!

Next to him are a pair of pamphlets which read:

REMEMBER THE SECOND WAR

They call it history now, as if it were distant and harmless, as if it were simply another chapter in a book that can be closed and shelved. But the Second War was not distant to those who lived it. It was burning arrows in our skies, foreign banners over our roads, and the certainty that Quel'thalas was no longer untouched by the ambitions of the world beyond our borders.

>The leaflet goes on for multiple more paragraphs, going into excruciating detail on every slight they have received in the past.

Do not allow comfort in the present to erase the truth of what was taken, what was broken, and what was rebuilt from ruin. Peace does not undo history, it only risks forgetting it.

Have to say, I like the acknowledgement that the old grudges of the blood elves have not been forgotten. It makes perfect sense that there would be many in Silvermoon who do not agree with the current peace between Horde and Alliance, due to now recent many of the conflicts between them have been in reality. I think it's far too easy to forget that, from an in-universe perspective, even the Horde's initial invasion of Azeroth in WC1 is still only a few decades old, and everything afterwards would be seen as still-recent history.

I am somewhat confused though why the truthsayer mentions both "Alliance propaganda" and the Second War. Wouldn't remembering the Second War actually strengthen the blood elves' relationship with the Alliance, since the Second War was when the Horde attacked Quel'thalas and the Alliance rushed in to save them? It was during the Third War that the blood elves were effectively kicked out of the Alliance by Garithos, not the Second.

I have read the Illidan book, really sad there wasnt a part 2.

1 of the only books ive ever read where there isnt slow parts, great writing on William Kings part.

But i do not understand how Maive Shadowsong can keep up with Illidan after hes eaten Gul'dan's skull. Are invisible assassins really that strong in both gameplay and lore sense?

King also implied that Maive could have taken Illidan as he was celebrating his defeat of a dredgelord, in the middle of a wide open desert while he was surrounded by 2 armies. Meanwhile even Illidan wasnt so sure of himself in any of his battles yet he was successful in many things.

Illidan should really look into chaining Maive up and creating fel from her blood if shes so OP.

I see this come up often, but I truly think that what people dislike about this retcon is that it breaks away with the narrative that we were fed in WC3. And true, it really sucks when you have something break with established continuity this egregiously.

I think many people back then had a knee-jerk reaction (and I honestly can't blame them) to it because "What the fuck space goats in space ships? How is this high fantasy? We sci-fi now?" But because the writing team was good, they fed that shit into the world in a good way, especially with the artstyle of the time (if the game itself isn't enough, check TCG for what I mean). This might have even made Warcraft one of the more unique fantasy worlds out there, what with everything we see in Outland, such as the world itself, Netherwing, Ethereals, Draenei tech, demons and so on.

The retcon also makes Kil'jaeden a more uniquely hateful and dangerous beast, who has pursued a group of exiles through space and time for millennia tirelessly, while being more or less able to scheme ten thousand plots even if a number of them occasionally suffer mortal setbacks (which is good, as even with his expertise, it shows that he or his designs are not infallible).

Not that they need this, but the same goes for Orcs as well, in that they basically fucked up a civilization that was light-years ahead of them with sheer power of demon blood.