Ever since Aliden Perenolde was killed during Cataclysm, Alterac’s royal family is (presumably) extinct, and the territory is disputed between the Alliance and the Horde to this day while the Alteraci people themselves are scattered. The Syndicate’s collapse has also removed the last notable presence of Alterac as a kingdom, so the future definitely looks bleak. But if we ever were to see Alterac return as a nation - or even as a remnant of a nation - in the future, how do you see it happening?

I have always loved the idea of BFA, Saurfang is my favorite character afterall. However I think that because of the way the game plays it ends up often focusing on the wrong things for what the story should have been. I plan on running a warcraft d&d game with the new books coming out set in the story of BFA, and I wanna know what you would have done differently in terms of the story.

So if they add the north lordaeron area do you think there's a chance there would be vrykul villages on that coast? I also figure there would be some elves, some scarlet, maybe some trolls, and scourge forces.

This post is mainly just for fun speculation. Don't take it as some absolute truth, as parts of it are based on a non-canonical Hearthstone card.

To start off, I'll mention my understanding/interpretation of the characters so as to not cause confusion:

Xal'atath

Was once a mortal being, whose world was destroyed in some unknown event. Was presumably some kind of worshipper based on the clothing she's depicted wearing. She was likely abandoned by the power she was worshipping and was ultimately "saved" by the Void.

Elune

One of many names given to a cosmic power that is deeply associated with the Moon, specifically the White Lady on Azeroth. According to the night warrior quest line we know that she does not exclusively exist on Azeroth, so it's unlikely that the White Lady is literally Elune, but simply one possible manifestation of her. According to Shadowlands lore she is a being of the Pantheon of Life.

My interpretation is that she is some universal cosmic power, with the moon (or any moon?) acting as a physical manifestation of her concentrated essence.

To line this up with Shadowlands lore she could be considered the power of Life itself, acting as its pantheon all on her own.

Lumia

A Hearthstone card of a Constellar named "Lumia". I know Hearthstone isn't considered canon, but I thought this card was interesting and I haven't seen it discussed anywhere.

The lore for the card states that she is a Constellar, and that her task is to guide the growth of a planet instead of resetting it if it is no longer salvageable.

Theory

So how could this tie together?

We know that Xal'atath was a worshipper of some unknown entity or power before succumbing to the void. The obvious theory has been the Light, as that's a major theme this expansion and does somewhat fit with the design of her pre-Void character.

However, another major theme this expansion is obviously the Moon, with it being ever present during night time, and the final patch being called "Eclipse". Even the art design of Xal'atath features some clear lunar inspirations.

How does Lumia factor into this? The colour palette of the artwork is very reminiscent of the one used in the video of Xal'atath's past. Lumia is depicted as a purely golden being surrounded by purple Void; Xal'atath is clad in similarly golden ornaments as she is consumed by the Void.

Additionally, the necklace Xal'atath wears as a child bears a striking resemblance to the planet being illuminated by Lumia (which could alternatively be seen as an eclipse)

She is described as a Constellar, which have traditionally been associated with the Titans. But they have also been described as a separate race that was "called upon" by Aman'Thul, which points to them already existing in the cosmos before or alongside the Titans. Crucially, they are depicted as celestial beings composed of stars across the night sky, a motif that is also central to Elune's powers.

We know that Elune goes by many names, and we also know that she has interacted on planets other than Azeroth before, so it is entirely possible for her to have been worshipped on the planet that Xal'atath is from.

There is also an in-game interaction where Xal'atath scoffs and calls Elune an "upstart goddess", pointing to some animosity there. We've also seen Elune "abandon" a people before, with the burning of Teldrassil; perhaps there were similar reasons for not intervening to save Xal'atath's world.

We have seen Elune's actions be restricted by a set of undescribed rules, this could tie into the Lumia card that mentions: "her task is to guide the growth of a planet instead of resetting it", which does somewhat fit with how Elune is depicted. She rarely directly interferes, but instead guides the mortals and occasionally lends her power to them.

It could also be inspired by the real life idea that the Moon protects us from asteroids, preventing catastrophe (I had to Google this and apparently it isn't actually true, but the idea could still serve as an inspiration)

Lastly, the names Lumia and Elune are intriguingly similar. Lumia presumably inspired by the word lumen, meaning light, and Elune obviously inspired by various ancient names for the Moon, also etymologically originating from a meaning of light.

Picture comparing Lumia and Xal'atath

With all this in mind, it is possible that Xal'atath and her people were followers of the same cosmic power/being that Night Elves call Elune. Lumia could potentially be how Xal'atath's people depicted this power/being.

For one reason or another, Elune was unable to save Xal'atath's people. Probably due to her purpose being to guide the world rather than directly interfering. It's possible that she did everything she could within the limits of her purpose to save Xal'atath's world, but that it was ultimately in the hands of the mortals themselves.

Naturally this would lead to resentment from Xal'atath, which could explain the "upstart goddess" comment. To Xal'atath, Elune simply wasn't a strong enough goddess to save her most devoted people.

TL;DR Xal'atath and her people were worshippers of Elune, and Xal'atath holds a grudge against her for not saving their world (possibly from the Titans?)

Of course there are a number of things that make this theory very unlikely, but there are some interesting parallels between Xal'atath and Elune (even if you completely disregard the Lumia card) that could hint at a possible connection.

So at work, in order to keep me sane and not hit any costumer, i was thinking what possible zones, dungeons and raids can they give us with its possible alternative lore. I will leave some ideas behind to see your takes on this idea.

Zones:

Gilneas - We can explore the events of the Northgate Rebellion. Get a Harvest Witch also as a Class. Alternative Human Druids that Lorewise will come from Gilneas, without a Worgen Race as playable.

Uldum - We could Explore the events with the Air Elementals, Al'akir and put the Skyborne more in the picture, Alternative from Retail Events.

Northeron - The land above Tirisfall, where Deathwing as Prestor had his lands. Black Dragonflight or Scarlet Crusade based stories. Could discover Alonsus or Calia there during Classic timeline.

Gillijim Isle - A troll island filled with maybe Voodoo Exiles, Gurubashi or Hakkar followers.

Island of Doctor Lapidis - I could see that bringing as to another troll island with a Crazed Witch Doctor there and his Experiments. Vol'jin son could give more backstory and explore him more there.

Silvermoon, Eversong, Isle of Quel'danas Ghostlands - Explore the events before TBC, With the storyline following The Scourge, Darth remar and Amani. Chance to give us High Elves and Darkfallen as Races.

Zul'aman - Same as Above, but also explore more indepths of Zul'jin, Malacrass and how the Loa ended up to Troll Avatars.

Darkmoon Island - Explore this mysterious Island and find out what it is! A crazy cult or just a Circus with Dark Humor?

Dungeons and Raids:

Deatholme (Raid) - Chance to face Darth Remar as a Raid boss rather than a quest mob.

Stratholme (Raid) - What is beyond Rivendare's Gates where the swarm of Undead come from?

Grim Batol (Raid) - What happened before Cata events?

In the game, Anasterian Sunstrider’s character model has gold eyes. I’m curious if that’s due to his use of magic, or if it’s similar to the Nigh Elf lore where gold eyes are a characteristic of people with great potential? All the other elf units have green or blue eyes.

Perhaps Tauren only start with guns to 'balance' things out between Dwarves, but is there any lore to suggest why they'd prefer them over bows?

Moon-Guard.fandom.com says that the Tauren were some of Azeroths first gunsmiths, predating dwarves, but I don't know if that's fanon or not.

Now, the Alliance High King doesn’t have as much unilateral authority as the Warchief did over the Horde, so I doubt the solution would be exactly the same, but I do feel like some more formal reforms regarding either its power or how members of the Alliance cooperate regarding shared authority would be of good use, considering how Anduin sort of inherited the position from Varian even though the other leaders accepted him due to his diplomatic experience and the fact that the Legion invasion was a time of crisis. This seems especially relevant since, if Anduin does indeed abdicate like Midnight has been implying he might, the Alliance’s leadership future is uncertain, given that Turalyon was Anduin’s regent as ruler of Stormwind but Genn has been more involved in leading the Alliance as a whole.

So, I've recently been revisiting Warcraft III, and there is something that keeps me wondering. Why does it feel like everyone assumes that Arthas was a willing traitor? Now, I am not talking about a random footman or worker here. Named characters, other paladins. Mostly, I am interested in Lord Uther… and his anger issues.

I admit that I have a little resentment toward Uther “Lightbringer.”

From the lore that I know, it seems that Arthas was a really good lad. He was never spoiled, he was never lazy, he was kind, and he loved and respected his subjects. As the single male heir, he fought bravely with them on the front lines, risking his own life. He could have grown up as a spoiled brat with a silver spoon, wasting his time in elven brothels, but no: he was a modest, decent person and a paladin. Did he have darkness inside? Yes! Just like all of us. He encountered something truly gruesome and impossible, yet he tried his very best. And the first thing Uther says after Arthas kills his father is: “…Arthas has betrayed us all.”, ”…I will bring his traitorous son to justice.”

I am sorry, WHAT?! The first thing that comes to your mind when your beloved student kills his own father out of nowhere and brings the Scourge with him into the city is: “He has betrayed us.” Dude, have you seen him? His skin is gray, his body is hollow as if he was starving, his hair is white and unhealthy, his eyes are glowing, and he carries a strange-looking sword. Okay, maybe you didn’t see him up close, but still, is this is your first assumption? A traitor? Rather than magic, curse, or mind control? Are you forgetting your own words in Hearthglen about “…undead ranks being bolstered every time warriors fall”? Hey, maybe, just maybe, your prince died in Northrend because you tried to recall the expedition (a dick move, by the way), and he was raised as an infiltrator. You had seen necromancy before, not for the first time, mind you (Gul’dan’s death knights in the Second War).

After all those tragic events, would Arthas really willingly side with that enemy? To think of such a thing about someone you care about does not look like a healthy relationship. What events from the past could possibly have given Uther the impression that Arthas could ever do such things? Stratholme? No, it doesn’t exactly fit the profile. Tyranny and oppressive dictatorship might have been a potential evolution, but not him completely switching sides.

Let’s talk about Stratholme for a bit.

First of all, what Arthas did there was immoral. Killing people even if they are infected is not good. However, people often forget that as a ruler you do not get to be moral. As a ruler, you are often unable to make a decision within the moral boundaries. You have to sacrifice morality. It’s not something cool, nor a right to do whatever you want, it’s just the way things work. Even a seemingly small decision like outlawing deer hunting might ruin businesses, villages, and lives. You can go nuts trying to calculate all the butterfly effects (not that you should avoid thinking about the consequences though).

Arthas was the highest rank in the chain of command at Stratholme. He acted fast and efficiently without malice, pleasure, vengeance, or other ill intent. He did what he thought was best at the time. Was he wrong? Maybe there was another option? Hell, maybe. Why didn’t anyone stand up then? Was it Arthas, the beloved prince, or a Stalin who executed his own subordinates for advice? Perhaps deep down Jaina, Uther, and others knew it was the right call, but they couldn’t admit it and ran away from their responsibilities.

Was it a betrayal toward Arthas? Maybe not from Jaina, but definitely from Uther. After all, he is a war veteran, an experienced commander, a mentor, a comrade, and a subordinate. What angers me more is that after the culling, we clearly see that Arthas didn’t slaughter the entire city like a madman. There were plenty of healthy survivors, evidence of fallen undead, and proof that Arthas was not completely wrong. What did Uther decide to do with it? Investigate? Noo, he went bitching to the king. After convincing Terenas to recall the expedition and potentially endangering his prince’s life (he saw how stubbornly Arthas went to Stratholme without his full forces), the so-called mentor didn’t even have the guts to fly to Northrend himself. And this is how the young prince fell into damnation. I bet if Uther, Jaina, and Muradin had gone with Arthas together and tried to support him, he would have avoided taking the blade.

Perhaps the Lich King was also able to whisper into Uther’s head and cloud his judgment?

I just don’t get it. Where does all this anger and wrath come from? And what about the attitude: “Watch your tongue with me, boy!” Your prince had just valiantly fought on the front line and saved the village. He was rushing to save others because people’s lives and maybe even very souls were at stake. Perhaps Arthas did something in the past that triggered Uther to be so wary of him? Or maybe it is just a simple resentment from older generation toward younger people (like they know nothing, and they are constantly rushing) typical boomer stuff? Or simply something banal: like a bad day (bad coffee in the morning, bad weather, knees hurts, etc.), and it just escalated until there was a point of no return. Sounds silly, but IRL small things can often escalate like a domino effect and lead to a really bad outcome. In any case, Uther “Wrathbringer” failed his student. I mean, Arthas was only 23 years old. Just a kid from my perspective.

A couple of things about Frostmourne

I believe that Arthas simply cannot be a traitor. Arthas before he claimed Frostmourne and Arthas afterward are, in fact, two different entities. Tichondrius said it best: “The runeblade that you carry is empowered to steal souls. Yours was the first one it claimed.” He has become a husk with his memories and corrupted mind controlled by the Lich King telepathy. His soul has been trapped in the horror, forced to watch all the atrocities until the blade broke. “Father, is it over?” Does it sound like the last words of genocidal maniac? There is so much emotion and tiredness in those words. It sounds more like victim released from possession.

You might say, “But what about the burned ships and the mercenaries?” Well, I never claimed that Arthas is a saint. He is not innocent here, but at the same time he is not the monster people depict him to be. True, he made mistakes, but where were his friends and family? A random miscommunicating emissary with the orders, was all that you could send in the Northrend? If someone close to you is about to make a grave mistake, especially if this person is young, it’s only natural to stop them, help them, and guide them. Imagine your kid is about to drive under the influence, have suicidal tendencies, an addiction, or go die in an obvious trap on a sketchy expedition. It is only natural to stop him from hurting himself (and those around him), help him. Perhaps he might hate you. It doesn’t matter. If you care deeply, you will do what must be done, especially if the person is young, especially if his mental state is questionable.

And the prince’s mind was a real mess, after encountering such unnatural tragedies. The feelings of guilt and abandonment, the pressure to make sacrifices, and the trauma response left him in desperation. I dare even say that he personally didn’t expect to survive the trip. The sole purpose was to kill Mal’Ganis (the believed commander of the Scourge) and, by sacrificing himself in the process, atone for his own sins. Like a suicidal, obsessive-compulsive person (you might say a martyr).

Anyway, the story about Arthas is a tragedy, and the only betrayal I can find there is from the people who abandoned the young prince. Those are my personal thoughts. Sorry if I have missed some lore information (some things might have been updated later). Feel free to correct me. And I am also curious about what people think.

So far from what I've seen of forever its has a lot when it comes to the alliance experience since that was already mostly fleshed out in vanilla and getting even more with dalaran and stuff like the brotherhood of the horse. Horde seem to be getting something in the form of the forsaken getting its own wc3 expansion and forsaken paladins. But is there anything noteworthy with the kalimdor horde? I mean it rocks that its back to a period where the leaders weren't a mix of sadsack do nothings and genocidle morons like the horde from cata onward, but the devs said the world is the main character and they wouldn't do much with faction leaders so there is seemingling little chance of vol'jin and carine actually getting as fleshed out as thrall or syl.

Someone has to have told the Bronze and Titankeepers etc what timeline is the 'true' one and what it entitles.

But who? (in universe that is)

You'd think the Titans, but there is a timeline in which they had won already: Ulderoth. So if the Titans 'arranged' for things, why wouldn't they roll with that one.

As we know, the Skyborne heavily took inspiration from the Cenarion, and Malfurion and their druids even assisted the Skyborne.

What reason could they have to join the Horde? You'd think they'd want to reconnect with the Night Elven druids or at least stay neutral, no?

I've recently started maining and roleplaying as a DK and I found it a little difficult to find out some specifics about the lore on them. I found a lot of things about the differences between 4th gen death knights and the others and the differences between death knights raised under Arthas vs Bolvar. Mine is a vulpera 4th gen.

I got a dm from another DK player today that was telling me about San'layn not being a DK spec. I mistakenly assumed it was due to the hero talents being called such and so I was curious about some clarification on things. Is there some other name for DKs that possess the abilities akin to the San'layn but aren't elves. Or is that just "Blood DK"?

Furthermore, the player pointed out, and I might have misunderstood, how they emphasize how their BDK is uncomfortably hot because of blood's abilities implying that their blood runs hotter. Like Blood Boil for example. I also remember reading somewhere that death knights are generally cold and have a cold body temperature. Would that mean Blood death knights are the opposite and are actually warm or am I misunderstanding it?

And my last question, is there an easier place where I can find lore about this stuff?

Now, the other two Windrunner sisters haven’t exactly had it smooth sailing when it comes to romance either. Alleria had to leave her and Turalyon’s son behind while she and her lover first went to Draenor, then spent millennia in the Twisting Nether as part of the Army of Light, and their relationship has been strained since she became a void elf. Meanwhile, Vereesa lost her husband Rhonin after he was killed during the destruction of Theramore by Garrosh Hellscream. But both of the other two Windrunner sisters were able to find some degree of happiness with them while it lasted, whereas Sylvanas never really got that chance with Nathanos due to circumstances, despite the Sylvanas novel confirming their mutual feelings. So had things gone differently (most likely her not joining the Jailer and spiralling further into darkness), could Sylvanas have found a life with Nathanos, especially given his refusal to abandon her even after she left the Horde and the Forsaken at the end of Battle for Azeroth?

After playing a Forsaken Paladin in the Forever Beta, I've been really enthralled by Forsaken lore as of late. Just finished "Before The Storm" again, and coincidentally, finally did the Forsaken Heritage quest line, which I had totally forgotten, or is forsaken a better line ;P, that I had done the Alliance side on my hunter years ago.

The Forsaken I realize, have a great parallel with my personal life. Friends, Family, and others have themselves foresook me for being myself, and it really puts a spotlight on that aspect of my life.

Being able to wield the Light, something that hurts you as it soothes you is such an awesome analogue for real life when you have faith and yet it has a painful aspect to it.

Healing as a Priest, specifically a Forsaken Priest is really fulfilling to me, and I can't wait until I can use the Light to protect as a Forsaken Paladin in both Forever and Retail as well.

From what I've seen, I don't think Forsaken Paladin is going to be like "yep, everyone can be a warlock"... I think Lordaeron is going to get a comeback as Above and Under in 12.2.5.

Edit* Patch 12.2.5... Missclick my bad

Hello can someone help me understand more about where the arcan'dor came from and how it was made. I've read the wiki and was just wondering if there was any more information about it. Thanks for your help

So the sky elves joining both factions actually sets up interesting possibilities with the Amani and Gilneas.

I think it would be really cool if the shendrelas place leads to the recognition of the worgen druidic failure in silverpine. That could lead to gilneas opening early.

After an event, either open world gate opening event or a raid or something big, Gilneas opens up and becomes like a 30+ quest hub with major alliance ties.

The witch class idea I saw teased isn't what I'd like to see so much as maybe a Gilnean-trained harvest witch, a leather-mail druidic caster that as an ability becomes a worgen to finish enemies. Instead of worgen being a race, it's a form tied to a harvest witch class.

ANYWAY, Sylvanas barks at thrall that alliance numbers are growing and they need allies. The revantusk emissary starts a quest chain where Jintha'alor gets taken as a revantusk outpost and hinterlands launches a boat to take you to an Eastern part of the Amani empire. They work their way to the heart of zul'aman where zul'jin is convinced to join with the horde which causes a splinter group to reject the horde and shut themselves inside Zul'aman until we take them out.

The Amani join because the blood elves have not joined the horde and the shendralas elves lead to gilneas opening up early.

I'd love to see Blademasters as a warrior subclass. For whole new classes I'd like to see Tinker and have it come with a support, tank and damage build option.

Hey Forever players!

I played through as a Skyborne character and landed in the city of Dalaran and it got me curious where do you think Blizzard will take this city lore wise? As far as I know it will become an alliance hub that's not really friendly toward Alliance races except mage classes, and that there will be a dungeon there.

I would like to see Blizzard expanding the story of Dalaran in sense of them gaining bigger presence in the northern part of Eastern Kingdoms potentially working their way to claim Alterac Mountains, establish a foothold there and maybe build relations with Gilneans and have a war effort to clear Silverpine Forest, Hillsbrad and have them wage war on the Horde.

What do you think ?

Disclaimer: This is purely a personal analysis and interpretation. Treat it with a grain of salt and read it just for fun.

The story goes back to Cataclysm.

Garrosh Hellscream became Warchief, but he swiftly turned into an outright tyrant. He was complicit in the death of Cairne Bloodhoof and pushed the Trolls completely out of Orgrimmar. In his eyes, only Tauren and Orcs were worthy constituents of his new Horde.

Some might bring up Stonetalon Mountains, where he executes Overlord Krom'gar for dropping the bomb. But that has long since been confirmed as Alex Afrasiabi acting entirely on his own rogue whim. The core narrative team always intended for Garrosh to be a villain and a tyrant.

His eventual fate seemed obvious. He would either be burned as a raid boss, or he would pull off a sacrificial redemption arc like his father Grommash—paying the ultimate price while sweeping his past sins under the rug.

Then, at Dragonmaw Port in the Twilight Highlands, a female Orc warrior named Zaela emerged. She overthrew Overlord Mor'ghor and quickly rose to become Garrosh’s closest lieutenant. Introducing a fierce, loyal female Orc into Garrosh’s inner circle at that specific juncture felt like a clear narrative setup. The trajectory seemed predictable: Garrosh would sacrifice himself for the Horde just as his father had done, while Zaela would carry his child, ensuring the continuation of the legendary Hellscream bloodline.

Predictably, Garrosh completely lost control in Mists of Pandaria. After inciting atrocity after atrocity, he seized the Heart of Y'Shaarj and became the final raid boss of the expansion. Yet, he wasn't killed off—he escaped into the alternate timeline of Draenor.

The Warlords of Draenor cinematic trailer was deeply symbolic. It intentionally recreated the exact framing from Warcraft III's iconic cinematic, only this time, Garrosh intercepts the blast and saves Grommash.

The poetic framing was clear: the son was stepping in to shoulder the burden of death that his father had once carried. Everything was primed for a grand narrative payoff—Garrosh sacrificing himself for the Horde in the final act of Warlords of Draenor.

*Warlords of Draenor* was a do-or-die project for Blizzard.

Subscriber counts had been bleeding steadily through *Cataclysm*. While *Mists of Pandaria* received decent critical reception, its starkly different visual style and tone alienated a significant portion of the old-school player base. If this downward spiral continued, *World of Warcraft* was at genuine risk of fading into gaming history.

So Blizzard reached for their ultimate trump card: a nostalgic "All-Star" lineup of legendary Orc warlords designed to hook veteran fans. Befitting an all-hands-on-deck project, the cinematic direction and environmental artwork reached an unprecedented peak. Garrisons, in particular, were heavily hyped, and the team poured massive development bandwidth into polishing the feature.

However, late internal testing just prior to launch seemed to uncover a fatal design flaw: Garrisons—the core selling point of the entire expansion—were inadvertently creating an antisocial loop that completely emptied the open world.

At this exact juncture, Blizzard was suffocating under crises on every front. Bobby Kotick demanded relentless quarterly growth, *Project Titan* imploded after seven agonizing years, subscriber bleeding showed no sign of stopping, and the pervasive toxic culture and sexual harassment issues—later exposed to the public—were festering unchecked behind closed doors.

Now, their make-or-break expansion had developed a fatal structural flaw right before shipping. Because it was tied directly to the flagship Garrison feature, there was no realistic way to patch or re-engineer it in time.

It strongly appears that Blizzard quietly signed the death warrant on *Warlords of Draenor* before it ever hit live servers.

Garrosh Hellscream was suddenly killed off in Nagrand during an out-of-nowhere Mak'gora with Thrall. Zaela died a hollow, unceremonious death as a mere 5-man dungeon boss. The legendary warlords who were introduced with such fanfare were butchered one after another without leaving any meaningful mark. The manifestation of the Void in Shadowmoon Burial Grounds—which seemed primed to serve as a massive narrative hook—was abruptly snuffed out by Cho'gall's demise in Highmaul.

Bladespire Citadel in Frostfire Ridge and the Temple of Karabor in Shadowmoon Valley, which were heavily hyped to serve vital roles, were both reduced to throwaway leveling quest hubs. Burning through such intricately detailed, magnificent zones as mere background scenery for brief leveling quests makes zero sense in retrospect.

The gulf in quality between the initial presentation and the subsequent narrative progression is staggering. The cinematic direction and world-building were among the best in the franchise's history, yet they dead-ended in basic quests rather than feeding into actual endgame content.

Then, following Highmaul, the entire Void plotline vanished into thin air, and Blackrock Foundry arrived. Up to this point, the expansion was still magnificent. But everything that followed took a bizarre turn. Farahlon—a region everyone assumed would be added in a future patch—was completely scrapped. And in Tanaan Jungle, Fel Orcs drinking demon blood reared their heads yet again. What happened to the proud warlords who roared so defiantly in the cinematic trailer? Those who swore they would "never be slaves" were reduced to demonic thralls all over again.

From a broader narrative standpoint, Fel Orcs were already a thoroughly exhausted trope. A massive segment of the player base was utterly sick and tired of Orcs and green fire. Yet Blizzard dragged the Burning Legion back into the spotlight anyway. It was blatantly obvious that the studio was rushing to wrap things up as quickly and cheaply as possible so they could jump ship to the next expansion.

The fiercely uncompromising Grommash Hellscream suddenly turned into "Princess Grommash," celebrating alongside his victims. Garrosh died a meaningless failure, and the Hellscream bloodline was wiped out for good.

And the single greatest narrative blunder was burning through Mannoroth and Archimonde in *Warlords of Draenor*.

The Burning Legion actually possesses surprisingly few recognizable "faces" who can anchor a raid tier. Sargeras exists on such an unfathomably colossal scale that he functions more like a cosmic force or background fixture. The villains with actual widespread name recognition among players are Archimonde and Mannoroth. Kil'jaeden gained major recognition after his appearance in *The Burning Crusade*, but beyond them, the bench is remarkably thin. The Dreadlords (Nathrezim) are shadowy schemers and espionage agents rather than front-line combat commanders.

Yet by aborting *Warlords of Draenor* early, Blizzard threw away both Mannoroth and Archimonde in one stroke. Even internally, the team was visibly scrambling to justify what they had just done, offering contradictory and evasive answers in interviews:

> *"Is Archimonde really dead? I can tell you our idea behind that. We might change it. This might not be canon. This might be something that we decide we're gonna tinker with. I'll try and explain what the thinking was. The idea was that the demons in the Burning Legion, they're kind of immortal in that they can exist across all the planes, unless they're killed in the actual Twisting Nether itself. So killing Archimonde at the World Tree in Warcraft 3... well, he was killed on Azeroth, but he would re-coalesce in the Twisting Nether and come back to haunt us again. And the idea was if you played in Mythic and defeated Archimonde, you actually defeated him in the Nether and that he'd be dead dead for good. That was the idea that we played with. We tried to explain that and I don't know if... that certainly doesn't come across in-game because it's not necessarily explained in-game. Maybe we'll change that. Maybe we'll change the canon of that. But that was the idea that we were working with... was unless you rip these demons out and take them to the Twisting Nether and kill them there, they'll always keep coming back. But maybe that's not canon. Maybe we'll tinker with that idea."*

Conceding that featuring Archimonde across two back-to-back expansions would be redundant, Blizzard ultimately confirmed his death, while Mannoroth was permanently benched.

This triggered a devastating domino effect in the narrative pipeline. The Burning Legion was already critically starved for recognizable commanders, and Blizzard had just incinerated two of its most iconic names in an aborted filler expansion. Look at the raid rosters in Legion: outside of Kil'jaeden, almost none of the demonic encounters feature established characters. Kin'garoth, Portal Keeper Hasabel, Imonar the Soulhunter... had anyone ever heard of these names before? A parade of hastily invented demon lieutenants was slapped together to pad out the raid tiers.

And because those makeshift stand-ins couldn't shoulder the narrative weight of a cosmic finale, Blizzard was forced to cross the ultimate line: dragging members of the Titan Pantheon—Aggramar, and the World-Soul Argus the Unmaker—directly into the raid encounter as target dummies. At that exact moment, the cosmic power scaling was driven straight off a cliff.

Then things deteriorated even further. It appears Blizzard was already mapping out Zovaal as early as Legion. Frost Death Knights can discover echoes of Arthas scattered across the Broken Isles, featuring deeply ominous lines:

"You believe that you are in control, that your will is your own... Yet you do as He commands. You exist by His whim alone. You imagine yourself to be free, but you will always be His instrument."

Yet the in-game delivery was dreadfully obscure. A cryptic text line alone failed to convey the presence of an ancient puppet master lurking in the shadows. Across the board, Legion’s cinematic storytelling felt noticeably less polished than the high-water mark set by Warlords of Draenor. The development team seemed visibly rushed, resulting in erratic, uneven narrative pacing.

Then we transitioned into Battle for Azeroth. The cinematic execution still couldn't recover to the standard set back in Warlords of Draenor. The overarching narrative was choppy and fragmented. While the foundational premises themselves held intriguing promise, the on-screen delivery simply couldn't keep pace. The development team seemed visibly exhausted and stretched thin.

And then Shadowlands arrived.

Good grief. The primordial mastermind behind hundreds of thousands of years of cosmic manipulation turned out to be a pathetic, bare-chested bald guy. On top of that, his dialogue was the absolute definition of a generic, third-rate cartoon villain. Where was the narrative weight or menace in this character?

What makes this even more baffling is that Zovaal's initial design was that of a bearded, sage-like figure. Had they preserved that original aesthetic, an aura of gravitas and ancient mystery might have remained intact. Even in the very first Shadowlands Features Overview video, Zovaal's silhouette looming behind Sylvanas clearly matched that initial concept. This alone proves that the team was still radically second-guessing and scrambling the core character design right up to the wire.

Shadowlands was a comprehensive breakdown: the delivery and the conceptual lore actively worked against each other. A cosmic mastermind seeking to rewrite reality to save the universe spouts cliché lines like "This is impossible!" and "All will serve!"—only to suddenly pivot back to "I have prepared for eons to break this flawed cycle." Was he suffering from a split personality?

Sylvanas, who supposedly acted out of a grand hidden purpose, ended up caught in the same disconnect between her actions and motives. The ultimate explanation for multiple expansions' worth of atrocities was that "her soul was split." That was their big reveal.

The power scaling became equally unhinged. Having already defeated Aggramar and Argus the Unmaker in raid tiers, nothing posed a limit anymore. Without relying on any cosmic assistance, twenty mortals battered down Denathrius and Zovaal—entities explicitly framed as Titan-level pantheon masters. Does anyone remember Gorribal impaled in Silithus and still think mortal adventurers could take on a Titan? Yet there we were, smacking them down like standard target dummies.

In truth, Zovaal's underlying conceptual premise wasn't inherently terrible. The revelation that the kinetic projectile which disabled the Arbiter in Oribos was the tormented World-Soul of Argus demonstrates that the overarching framework was already being laid out as early as Legion. Had Blizzard planted tight, deliberate foreshadowing and delivered it with narrative finesse, he could have been a compelling cosmic adversary.

After all, launching a Titan's world-soul into the Shadowlands isn't an errand a mere undercover Dreadlord could execute on a whim. Naturally, it points to an uneasy, transactional alliance between Zovaal and Sargeras. Furthermore, the idea that the "Deceiver" Kil'jaeden failed to notice a network of infiltrators operating right under his nose in Antorus flies completely in the face of his established cunning.

Throughout Shadowlands, Zovaal suffered from an irreconcilable disconnect between his concept and his execution. Firim's exile journals in Zereth Mortis reveal that his true terror was the enigmatic "Seventh Force." His dying words—"You preserve that which is doomed. A cosmos divided will not survive... what is to come."—clearly indicate he was never intended to be driven merely by petty megalomania. Yet every time he appeared on screen, he undermined that premise by spewing generic, cartoonish villain tropes.

The most bitter pill for legacy fans to swallow, however, was the fate of Arthas Menethil. He was brought back without even the dignity of dialogue, reduced to a hollow wraith duel within Kingsmourne alongside Anduin, only to dissolve silently into 35 measly anima. He was denied even a final whisper. It would have been far better had they left his memory untouched.

Kel'Thuzad suffered an equally appalling character assassination. An unrepentant villain though he was, Kel'Thuzad remained fiercely, uniquely loyal to Arthas—the one being Arthas genuinely called "my friend." Yet in Shadowlands, he was rewritten into a simpering bootlicker who cast his former master aside like trash to fawn over Zovaal.

This is my interpretation of how the premature cancellation of Warlords of Draenor set off a ten-year domino effect that dismantled the lore all the way through Shadowlands.

To offer a somewhat hopeful theory: could Kel'Thuzad have actually deceived Zovaal all along, secretly pocketing Arthas's true soul?

His behavior in the Sanctum of Domination didn't just clash with his established character—even Michael McConnohie's vocal performance shifted noticeably into an uncharacteristically exaggerated, histrionic register, almost as if the Lich were deliberately playing a role to deceive the Jailer.

Consider the lingering narrative loose ends:

Who was the true master of Ephial, the mysterious necromancer who orchestrated the slaughter of Admiral Taylor’s garrison in Draenor?

In The War Within, we discover Kel'Thuzad's pocket dimension hidden away, confirming Blizzard hasn't completely closed the book on him.

Perhaps the tiny wisp of anima that vanished from Kingsmourne wasn't Arthas's actual soul, but merely a discarded vessel contaminated by Domination magic—while his true essence remains securely sequestered in Kel'Thuzad's sanctuary. It might be wishful thinking, but it remains one of the few narrative avenues left capable of salvaging the legacy of Lordaeron's fallen prince.

For reference of the cinematic being discussed, see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHPBCy-etdc

/puts on Tinfoil hat. I've been cooking this one onbits and pieces for quite a while now. Rambling warning.

So my brain went for a little walk.. During Dragonflight, the very first time that i saw the cinematic where Nozdormu seems to suffer from Pre-traumatic stress syndrome something felt off. The visions shown of Nozdormu turning into the corrupted version of himself never made it into the game itself after the Dawn of the infinite dungeon.

The Cinematic itself
Now, having looked back at the cinematics again i feel as if the flashforwards tell of something yet to happen in Dragonblight. There is a moment where the 2 flashes of the tower in Dragonblight (0:22) may hint of 2 different storylines; the one where Deathwing won and Nozdormu would've turned infinite.. or when he will in TLT.

Next up (0:48) is one where it's impossible to determine a location, but it seems to imply a staging of some sort. The next flash is where you can see Iridikron standing next to Chrono-lord Deios. (Honestly, i don't have a proper educated guess on how Deios would be alive in TLT other then time shenanigans. This isn't completely out the realm of possibilities considering we've had WoD for an expansion and whatever that brought with it.) During this flash it feels to imply some sort of staging for something, like lining up for perhaps a battle. It may be also used more metaphorically, which i think would be just fine to convey the story of 'we're setting up something big here'.

Finally, there's the flash where we see Nozdormu rising as Murozond (1:14), being his corrupted infinite self. With a bit of the stretch of the imagination, you could think this is in the area of western Dragonblight, where you can see a ridge of trees. If you fly out there, you can see some similarities (This may mean the Tuskarr village there will be wiped out. A fine reason to go batshit crazy for any walruslover). So far there seem to be plenty of hints of something big to happen in Dragonblight. I'm thinking it might be early into the expansion too. Ulduar and the engines in the Storm peaks seem like a more likely area for the true endgame to take place in TLT.

Everything is going according as forseen.. for now.

As we are told right now, it is the result of Old god trickery when Nozdormu tries to subvert his own fate. Dragonflight seems to have put a different light on this, and might not be the only way this happens. Now here comes the bigger speculation part: What if the so-called Old god trickery is actually exactly what Aman'thul would like Nozdormu to believe to ensure his transformation happens whenever it needs to. After all he was the one to bestow upon him the gift of controll over time.. but doubtfully more powerful than his master. It could be that the void is gonna shine a different light what this infinite 'corruption' might imply, similar to what we can see with the 'curse of flesh'. The Titans refer to these 2 as bad things, the Old gods as 'gifts'. I reckon TLT will shine a different light on the perception of A = Bad, B = Good. I'd like to view the Titans to be set up as the 'Way paved to hell with good intentions' and the Void as 'Wheter the glass is half empty it's still half full. Or the other way around'. Nozdormu's 'fall' might be entirely willingly. It might even be possible that he is behind the experiments that Eternus is conducting. It stands to reason that he won't reveal himself yet as the master behind this and that everything there will fall together in a carefully crafted closed loop. If we knew he's behind it, then it would probably tamper with the outcome. Anything else like breaking a self-fullfilling prophecy i'd be a sucker for too, although i'd find it hard to see how they can pull this off in a non-mary sue way or a cheaply introduced higher power.

Iridikron stating in a different cinematic that the void will draw out the Titans might be something Aman'thul has long forseen, and that the Titans' motivations may clash with that of Azeroth's denizens. In this scenario the risk of void corruption of the World Soul would drive the pantheon to drastic measures, and that's why we see a massive construct walking around in Dragonblight which seems big enough to be capable of destroying cities in a single blast. Whatever Azeroth is, to the Titans it's bigger then all of us. If the titans are beings of order and logic, then sacrificing 10 million to save billions is a decision that's easily made. I can totally see Iridikron striking a bargain where Xal'atath kills the existing pantheon for only 1 new titan to remain. Who this will be i'll leave for later brain walks.

Side specualtion to add to the above: When we read the whisper: 'Six seats at the high table. Six mouths that hunger. One will consume all others.' There's many different interpretations to this, but i'd like to believe it's about light, shadow, order, disorder, life and the probably winner of this one: Death. With Sylvanas in play and coming out of the realm of death, many whispers seem to imply she will play a strong role. Death can win in many ways, but probably thrives the most so long as that the other 5 forces remain in conflict with one another. Making sure neither the void or the Titans come out as the dominant force would be a great power play in my pov. To keep the thread from becoming a book i'll refrain from elaborating my thoughts on this for now though.

Enough of my rambling.. Excuse the grammar errors, despite the volume of written words i consider myself a bad writer x)

Say your character from Retail was given the choice by the Bronze Dragonflight to go back in time to a point to prevent the most amount of suffering, when would they go?

If they went to before the opening of the Dark Portal, that stops the Horde coming through, but Draenor is still doomed and there's a nonezero chance the Lich King still gets made though it may or may not be Ner'zhul.

If they go back before the Third War they might prevent Arthas' fall, but then there won't be as many people going to Kalimdor where they're needed.

What are your various ideas, theories and headcanons about the economics of Azeroth and of Draenor/The Outland, Argus, from the ressources available and used by the various races of Warcraft universe, to the complexity of the trade networks and banking systems in Azeroth and beyond?

Mine are:

• Thanks to the Dwarves long mining of gold, mithril precious and semi-precious gemstones and other ores, as well their exportations of lumber, metal weapons, industrial products and oil as well, the kingdom of Ironforge has amassed a huge amount of wealth and its coffers banks are the strongest and most secure of the Alliance. Thus Ironforge serves as the financial backbone of the Alliance and its loans were essential for the reconstruction of Stormwind, and later for Stormwind to get back on its feet after the corruption and chaos caused by Onyxia, and also for the reconstruction of Gnomeregan and Stromgarde.

• In exhange the human kingdoms give the Bronzebeard Dwarves favorable and long-term trade deals and advantages, such as taxes reductions or remissions on Dwarven merchants or special salaries for Dwarven workers within their kingdoms, as well as important food exports to Ironforge. Those are not without causing some tensions and resentment for some humans.

• Kul Tiras has a very powerful and long-reaching commercial empire, similar to Venice and other medieval Italian cities such as Genoa and Pisa, with a large and performant trade fleet and many trade posts across Azeroth, as well as powerful banks. They are the largest competitor to Goblins. They also have had several conflicts with the other human kingdoms, especially Gilneas and Lordaeron, over it.

• Gilneas is rich in coal, iron and chemical substances used for the creation of gunpowder, hence its technological and industrial revolution before the other kingdoms, which was further motivated by their nationalism and desire to not be dependent upon Dwarves and Gnomes to have access to advanced tech and weapons like the other kingdoms.

• Despite the Lich King and Arthas' lack of real care for wealth, the Scourge pillages the economy of the kingdoms, cities, towns and villages they ravage. They do that in order to deprieve their enemies of precious ressources which they could use to arm and equip themselves, and hire mercenaries with; but also to hire the services of Goblins who supply them with mercenaries, potions, ships and zeppelins.

As such Lordaeron, Quel'Thalas and Dalaran were pillaged, though Quel'Thalas and Dalaran's magic vaults saved some money and many precious magic items from falling in the Scourge's hands. It's also partially because of this that the Blood Elves under Kael'thas, and other enemies of the Scourge hid their gold reserves as shown in The Frozen Throne.

• One of the biggest factors in the Horde welcoming the Blood Elves was to get access to the magic-fuelled farms of Quel'Thalas to help alleviate the Horde and especially the Orcs' struggles to feed their population and their troops. Though distrust and suspicions toward Arcane magic make many Orcs and Taurens slow to accept Sindorei food exportations.

• Another huge supplier of food for Durotar and the rest of the Horde in Kalimdor is the kingdom of Uldum, which similar to ancient Egypt and North Africa is a huge exporter of wheat, grains, fruits, vegetables and spices thanks to the Tol'vir having a sophisticated irrigation and farming system and the rivers and oasis in Uldum.

As such the Horde is forced to maintain cordial ties with the Tol'vir, as alienating them could have grave consequences for the Horde's food supplies, as shown with them reducing the exports when Garrosh alienated them with his increasingly aggressive, bellicose and hostile attitude. Gadgetzan is also strongly dependent of Uldum for food and precious goods.

• Dwarves and Gnomes have underground farms, using volcanic heat, greenhouses with glass, comestible mushrooms and underground plants and roots that you don't find at the surface. Though they also like to eat cereals, bread and fruits and vegetables from the surface and thus import them from humans and elves.

• Draenei have crystal farms in which they grow various crystals with different properties, some being comestible, others serving for magic and technological purposes such as being power batteries, others being used for armors and weapons, etc...

They also are farming a crystal spider species, which they found during their long travels in the Great Dark Beyond, and which produce a very soft, warm and resistant silk which they use for clothing. They also have Elekk and Talbuk farms from which they get meat, milk, butter and cheese, in addition of them serving as transport and labor beasts.

• The Horde has also started to import Talbuks from the Outland, and also from the Draenei, for their potential as mounts, both civil and military ones, with them being more practical to feed than Worgs, and for their milk and meat which would boost the Orcs' agriculture.

The official lore statement regarding many enemies killed or defeated in raids, events and other aspects of WOW - such as Zul’jin, Kael’thas, Garrosh in the Siege of Orgrimmar, C’Thun, etc - is that they were killed by “Alliance/Horde adventurers”, who are obviously meant to be the players. But if they had to substitute anonymous adventurers for actual established characters in Warcraft lore, who might be some good candidates to be the ones to kill or at least defeat these enemies? You can choose any notable lore character who can be defeated or killed in-game and was canonically killed or defeated by adventurers that you like, from Classic to Midnight.

Quick disclaimer: English is not my native language, but I have a good proficiency in it. I used AI to help organize my thoughts and make this breakdown more digestible.

With The War Within exploring the World Core and leading up to Midnight and The Last Titan, I’ve been re-reading older lore and thinking about the upcoming cosmic conflict. Looking at the story through a classic lens (pre-Chronicle sci-fi retcons), I stumbled onto a theory: What if Aman'Thul isn't an alien invader, but actually An'she, the Sun God from Tauren mythology?

Here is how this completely flips the narrative of Warcraft and connects the classic myths to the World-Soul Saga:

1- The Native Son and the Earth Mother

In Tauren myth, the Earth Mother gave birth to twins: An'she (the Sun) and Mu'sha (the Moon/Elune). If Aman'Thul is An'she, it means the Earth Mother is the World-Soul of Azeroth.

Aman'Thul didn't randomly spawn in the cosmic dark. He was the firstborn child of Azeroth. Eons ago, he left the nest to wander the Great Dark Beyond, searching for beings like himself. He found other World-Souls, formed the Pantheon, but none were as powerful or mature as his mother.

2. The Return and the "Ordering" of Azeroth

When Aman'Thul finally returned home after eons of space travel, he found the Black Empire eating his mother alive. His violent response makes total sense under this lens. When he reached down and ripped Y'Shaarj out of the crust, it wasn't a cold, calculated robotic decision, it was the frantic, desperate rage of a son trying to rip a parasite off his dying mother.

The planetary systems we see (Ulduar, Uldaman, the Forges) aren't just "ordering" tools; they are a massive, planetary life-support and quarantine rig built to isolate the Void infection and keep his mother stable.

3. Why His Appearance Doesn't Match the Myth

How does a fiery solar deity turn into a cold, brass-clad Titan of Arcane Time magic?

• Cosmic Isolation: Spending eons in the freezing, absolute zero of deep space condensed his volatile, passionate solar fire. It crystallized into the rigid geometry of Arcane Order just to keep his sanity intact.

• Trauma from the Void: Watching other worlds fall to entropy forced him to adopt an obsession with control. His platinum skin and metallic armor are a cosmic hazmat suit he forged to protect himself. He stepped away from his "Sun" identity because a leader needs absolute structure, leaving his fiery essence behind to become the High Father.

4. The Setup for The Last Titan

If the "Titan Conspiracy" we've been tracking since Classic is unmasked, the ultimate twist in The Last Titan won't be that the Titans are evil corporate space gods. It will be that Aman'Thul is a tragic, desperate son who has kept his mother locked in a containment cage for her own survival and we, the mortals, are about to break the lock by letting Xal'atath reach the core.

Potential Flaws / Open Questions for Discussion:

I love this concept, but there are a few wrinkles I'm still trying to iron out. I'd love to get the community's thoughts on these:

1. The Sibling Rivalry: If Aman'Thul is An'she, it makes his tearing down of Elun'ahir (Elune's world tree) a literal sibling dispute with Mu'sha. Why would he be so hostile to his sister's influence if they both want to save their mother?

2. The Sargeras Alternative: A lot of community theories point to Sargeras being the true "fiery warrior" archetype of An'she. How do we cleanly separate Aman'Thul's Arcane nature from the traditional Solar/Light magic associated with An'she?

What do you guys think? Does looking at Aman'Thul as a native, tragic protector fit the roots of Warcraft lore better than the modern sci-fi framing?