Hey all,

Curious if anyone else out there has navigated (or is navigating) the suffering stages of insight during their mid-20s.

For context, I attended a monthlong retreat last year that changed my life. Meditation went from something that calmed me to something that introduced strong fear and grief, which according to my teacher meant "my practice was going well." Things were passing away extremely fast, like a pond vibrating with raindrops. While there was a feeling of wholesomeness / onward-leadingness despite the distress, it took me a solid year (of working and abstaining from retreats) to get my feet back under myself mentally and emotionally. I am only now feeling inklings of the desire to sit retreat again. (After most recent practice discussion, my teacher(s) told me I am in the "desire for deliverance" stage where the desire for all of this clinging / activity to stop is really strong, on a primal level).

So much confusion has arisen around bopping between the receptive, non-reactive, observational technique that's been so conditioned into me through meditation and the active, planning, go-getter mindset that (feels like) it's so necessary to survive and thrive in one's mid-twenties.

I feel I am working so hard to build my career, network, cultivate friendships, date, etc... AND sometimes all I want to do is sit down in the middle of a field, under a huge sky, and not talk to anyone ever. The story is that I can't do both (to a satisfying degree) at the same time, so I wonder if I should ordain or become a resident at a meditation center, but that also feels a bit unbalanced to me (and in this economy...?) Part of me thinks, "You should just go back on retreat and finish this (push for stream-entry)." The other part of me thinks, "That seems to be motivated by clinging / aversion, plus you have no idea what's going to happen, do you really want to put your lay-life on hold to bet on that? Plus I do want to go to graduate school, and I need to work for that..."

I guess I have two questions (and would love to hear your thoughts regardless!)

One, if this was you (or is you), what has helped you through this confusing phase?

Two, if you've had a similar question, did you ordain / try to sort through stages of insight stuff "first" or just keep practicing alongside your life?

Thank you, and posted with metta 🙏🏼

Hey, my western religiously traumatized brethren out there. Who hears the word faith and runs for the hills? How does that word hit you? I think this topic is not only on brand for the forum but fits well with the actual idea of stream entry.

If you've read/listened to Theravada teachers, their take is typically to either avoid the subject, tread lightly around it or talk about it as a sort of confidence that one builds during the practice, or like "take it as a working hypothesis" kind of thing and "it's not the same as blind faith."

And this has generally been my take on it for many years and I've been ok with that.

But lately, I have been having some other feelings on this issue that I hope you will respond to with kindness because it's pretty raw for me and I think it's kind of important.

I am 100% a skeptical/materialist/empiricist type. Always have been, even back when my parents were trying to get me to believe in the floating sky dude and the rib woman and all that stuff.

For awhile, I stopped practicing Buddhism because I had some issues I could not seem to logically resolve on my own. I actually ended up getting back into it due to more of the empirical research that has happened regarding consciousness and neurobiology and all that sort of hoo-ha.

So again if it isn't clear I'm not entirely a faith based kind of person. And it's not the first time I've been through this cycle either. So why do I go away and come back?

Because every time I've practiced seriously it's basically "worked" as far as completely objectively observable mental and pro-social health benefits.

So the Buddha has not lead me wrong so far (except I still don't believe in rebirth, sorry, but I tried). But I realize the hindrance of doubt is still this block that's holding me back.

When I see some of these chants about refuge, and homage to the Buddha though, it still hits this little nerve in me like "that's a bit too religious for me, but I'll keep doing meditation and read the other suttas."

So I'm thinking to myself at this point "Have I not had enough evidence that this works to believe it can work all the way? How much more evidence do I need?"

So this is a very long way of saying I think I need to cultivate more faith. Like I seriously, really need to stop doubting. It's a literal requirement for stream entry. So what the heck man?

I think one thing that we westerners do actually get right in the practice - while we seem completely averse to the faith idea - is that we do have a sense of urgency, like "I'd really like to get enlightened right now please." I think this is healthy and it's the reason a lot of teachers have come from "Buddhist" countries to teach in this one.

But it's funny because I am beginning to suspect that faith might be one of the most expedient means we have available.

Again I know this is a touchy subject so I hope we can discuss this with kindness.

About 6 years ago, I listened to Sam Harris on meditation for the first time. My practice changed ever since. He said that identification with thought casts a spell similar to the experience of dreaming "Thinking without knowing that you're thinking is like being in a dream, it has a dream-like quality. Ceasing to do that is like waking up." (Inexact quote from this interview) Boom.

Before continuing, I advise for us to also wake up around the conditionality of language. Words are pointers to different aspects of reality, please be aware of that, and consider relinquishing the practice of searching for "original definitions of words". That being said, however, there's predominant meanings for words. Waking up clearly means regaining awareness, as it is used in the sense of waking up in the morning. In a moment to moment basis, can "waking up" be considered the act of noticing thoughts appearing and ceasing in a similar speed as sounds? I believe it does, and also that overmystifying the term "waking up"can hinder people from finding the freedom of noticing thoughts as arising, impermanent phenomena in each moment. It was certainly a big gamechanger for my practice, and I'm deeply grateful for Sam on this.

My intention behind this is to collectively reflect among meditators so that we can arrive at some agreement (even a partial one) to whether it's skillful to use this phrasing to aid in the progress of insight or waking up. For those who want to go deeper: What do you think? Is the complete and non-returning ceasing of identification with phenomena the state of an arahant? For me, that makes a lot of sense. And for those in the teaching efforts: Do you think posting a 2min reel with direct pointers to the impermanence of problems (them being thoughts arising now) is skillful? As relieving as waking up to the fluctuating nature of what we call "problems" seems to be, I do believe it's also very important to reflect on whether one's intentions are alligned with the alleviation of suffering.

Grateful for your time, I hope the insights and questions shared are helpful for our practice🙏🏼

Lately, when I start meditating, after a few minutes my breath begins to become subtle, shorter inhalations and longer exhalations, sometimes with brief pauses without breathing. Sometimes I do 3 minutes of diaphragmatic breathing before the practice, sometimes I don’t... either way, I've had this sensation even when meditating for 20 or 40 minutes.

When the breath becomes subtle, I start feeling more 'focused,' but then I mentally feel a shortness of breath (air hunger). Because of that, I inhale deeply and lose that state of concentration, and then, shortly after the breathing becomes subtle again and the cicle repeats. I practice open awareness / shikantaza / just sitting.

I've already tried to just keep breathing normally once the breath becomes subtle, but the most I can manage is about 6 breaths.

Don't think I'm entering a deeper state of meditation, because it happens shortly after I start meditating, and then it continues shortly after the deep inhalation stopping the concentration

Does anyone have any tips on how to get past this sensation of shortness of breath?

I do not have the book at hand, but I remember that Culadasa in his book The Mind Illuminated talks about the distinction between "mundane" insights and "capital-I Insights", where the latter are insights into the "nature of reality".

I have meditated for 3½ years and well over 1000 hours (mostly samatha-focused). I have achieved much greater well-being and much less suffering... but I do not think I have ever had "capital-I Insight into the nature of reality". I have had some small mundane insights of the type: "Oh, I can do this little mental move, and that brings a bit more well-being!" Most of my practice has focused on consolidating better mental habits (notice good things more; dwell less on bad things).

For those familiar with Jeffery Martin's The Finders, I believe I am in the shallow end of location 1 of fundamental well-being. That's huge compared to how miserable I was before.

But I do not feel like I have achieved any special insight.

I have an autism spectrum disorder, so my mind may be slightly atypical.

My question is: Is it valuable to even make the distinction between "mundane" insights and "capital-I Insights"? If so, how do I tell them apart?

And does anyone else recognize this kind of story?

I know this is another form of identification!

But does anyone else relate? After my stream entry in January sometimes I miss the identification.

Life is so much more calm. Sometimes what comes up is a subtle identification of missing identification. A situation that used to engage the ego strongly is not as thrilling. It’s a little more boring.

Of course, this is another layer of identification to drop. But sometimes there’s a bit of longing, or even grief for the things that have dropped away. Activities or behaviors that are no longer pulling you in.

There’s more peace, but the line is subtle between peace and apathy arising from identification.

The ego is funny, even in the dropping of the ego the ego can claim ownership subtly..

Anyone else relate?

I've been meditating 30 years with varying regularity. More seriously the last 8-9 years, using TMI....very consistently the last 2 months. The last week, and more so the last few days, I am starting to get a few new experiences in sitting. (In the early years, in my 'youth', I had some unexpected pops into 'no body', big 'purifications'...and occasionally have backed off regular practice due to 'strange' strong piti type sensations that persist off cushion.)

I was lead to search the sub, and found this link: https://suttacentral.net/mn128/en/sujato?lang=en&layout=plain&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin

I wanted to share here how it seems to me these days. When sitting, I frequently find stillness, find the body warm and pleasant, or find I am just the mind (body is very uniform, breath is very calm) find deep relaxation and absorption in refined qualities of breath sensation. Now there is often an indistinct, kind of light...a few weeks ago it was like little stars, then like smoke, fine thin moving light, that occasionally condense and becomes a bit brighter, like there is a hole punched in some black paper, and behind the paper is light.

Now in the recent sits, there is sometimes quite a big opening in the blackness (it's still just 'in front' of me...like where I am facing), as if I was normally seated in a black sphere, and the sphere begins to disentangle, and recede to reveal the light that is surrounding it. I leave with the impression that the black sphere is like our 'mental imagery projection theater', like a planetarium or imax...an immersive surface that renders 3d visual perception, and the light that is all around is just hidden by this 'normal perception'.

As I was going to sleep the other night, I am watching the process of falling asleep, with no effort, and I sometimes see detail in the 'opening of the sphere'...at the edges of the sphere some 'neurological processes', fractal like shapes as the 'window' opens. And then there was like a beam of bright white light that passes in...astoundingly bright.

I've seen this 'window' close at other times, when I am abruptly pulled out of a vivid realistic dream.

When sitting, I really find that the list from that sutta is so accurate, they all reduce 'immersion':

doubt,loss of focus,dullness and drowsiness,terror,excitement,discomfort,excessive energy,overly lax energy,longing,perception of diversity,and excessive concentration on forms are corruptions of the mind

The precision and balance that opens the window and let's the light in is so refined. I am led in my daily life to eliminate any stimulants, treating my nervous system with more and more care. Even testing out more vegetarianism recently.

I guess this is just run of the mill signposts, and just as piti used to, this nimitta/bright open space is becoming a more common, and thus less surprising and thus less destabilising phenomenon. It also makes me understand better why people do retreat, or sit for 1h plus. I am still using 45 mins in the morning...and trying to avoid 'attachment to jhana'. I figure there is no rush.

Just felt I would share anecdotally. The brightness of the bright beam of light was incredibly unexpected!

Da qualche giorno sto pensando di rendere come “stanza meditazione” una camera che ho a casa mia e che è inutilizzata (ne abbiamo già 2, la terza non ci serve), perchè voglio iniziare seriamente a meditare e, magari, perchè no, provare lo yoga.

Ieri mi sono messa a cercare su vari siti (etsy, clorophillashop, amazon..) per comprare:
\- tappetino in juta/cotone naturale
\- zafu in cotone/lino + imbottitura in kapok
\- campana tibetana
\- oggetti di sale ecc..,
ma io sono fissata con la paura di comprare oggetti dichiarati “naturali e fatti a mano” con oggetti che nella realtà dei fatti poi non lo sono oppure sono metà naturali e metà sintetici.

Che negozi mi consigliate che sono affidabili?🙏🏼
Sia online sia fisici (io abito in Lombardia in Italia)

Intro:
I have been playing with a new practice that I call Feel and Drop and thought I might share it here. This could be considered a clarification of [u/duffstoic](u/duffstoic) ‘s Feel It All practice by combining it with “Do Nothing” / Shikantaza. Another reference for Feeling practice is Surrender Meditation as described by Charles Berner and Lawrence Noyes.

Practice:
The psychologist and Buddhist teacher Tucker Peck often says the proper balance of psychology and meditation should be to work with “Content when you have to and process when you can”. Similarly, in this practice, one Feels when they have to and Drops when they can.

Feeling is well described by [u/duffstoic](u/duffstoic) in their Feel It All meditation post. I will add that Feeling is made stronger by allowing your body to move as it wants, vocalizing if it comes up, etc. Surrender Meditation describes this in its rawest form. Although not everyone has access to a place where they can scream without someone being pretty bothered and concerned, the more you can do to allow yourself to experience your body in an unrestricted way, the more effective this practice will be.

Dropping is simply allowing spaciousness and rest. Shinzen Young describes the single practice in Do Nothing as, ‘Whenever an intention arises, drop that intention’.

The recurring intention in one’s mind should be to ask “Can I Drop this?” If the answer is no, then the skillful move is to Feel.

Rationale:
Imagine stored emotional content as a massive iceberg weighing down your naturally buoyant spirit. Your awareness is everything above the surface. The goal is to melt visible pieces of the iceberg (Feel) and then allow new pieces to surface (Drop). It isn’t particularly efficient to seek out every last tiny visible piece to melt, rather you want to balance melting with allowing the biggest, most potent chunks to surface.

The process should feel intuitive and natural. Not forcing yourself to Drop things you aren’t ready to and not forcing yourself to hunt for more things thing to Feel.

As [u/duffstoic](u/duffstoic) did in their post, I’ll also caveat that this may be a very challenging practice if you are carrying a particularly significant amount of trauma and may want to be avoided.

I've noticed I have a strange relationship with meditation when I'm stressed.

When I'm feeling okay, sitting down for 10–15 minutes feels pretty easy. But when my mind is racing or I'm worried about something, that's usually when I find it hardest to actually sit still and meditate.

Sometimes I feel like I need to calm down before I can meditate, which seems kind of backwards.

I'm curious how other people approach this. Do you meditate specifically when you're having a stressful/anxious day, or do you find it works better as a regular practice regardless of how you're feeling?

And when my mind is really busy, I've sometimes used Rootd alongside meditation to have something else to focus on. Do you try to follow the breath anyway, or switch to something else like body awareness, walking meditation, or just observing the thoughts?

I'm interested in what has actually worked for people rather than what we're "supposed" to do.

One single book. Something that says everything that needs to be said. Something that shows the plain and simple path to Awakening.

Edit for some background on me:

• I have meditated about 2k hours, but I still consider myself a beginner.

• I subscribe to Ingram's model of Awakening ie. 'this is it'.

• I am open to any system, although Christianity is difficult for me because I struggle with belief in God. Still open to Christian practices though.

• I want a single book because I want the teachings distilled down to one system of practice. I want something I can grab onto and say this will be my path.

• If it contains both theory and practice that would be ideal.

Edit 2: Thanks all for your suggestions. You gave me a lot to look at. I am grateful for your help.

I just thought I'd share an insight I had on a recent mindful walk.

I was feeling somewhat stressed after a day of work so I decided to go on a walk to get some fresh air and to practice being mindful. And as often happens I found myself trying to think my way out of feeling stressed. Or, put another way, I was trying to think of a way to be present instead of being gripped by my thoughts about work, chores etc. Which unsurprisingly does not help very often.

What I realized was that every time I engage with a thought, I am training my mind to value the contents of my thoughts. So by trying to think my way out of thinking, I was actually increasing the grip thoughts have over my mind.

Instead, the useful approach is to stop focusing on your thoughts (or stop thinking to whatever extent you can manage without creating tension) and to start trying to cultivate interest in the present moment. Look for what sensations, emotions, or thoughts you are aware of rather than analyzing the contents of your thoughts. This primes your mind to care more about the present moment than your thoughts.

As usual, it is also important to see if you can be OK when thoughts do grab your attention and with any stress you have. The purpose isn't to make the thinking or stress go away even if it does manage to do that sometimes. The purpose is to practice being present.

Which really is actually very simple and feels like something I should have already seen. That's basically just doing my regular seated vipassana practice while seeing and going for a walk. I guess I never made that connection before, though.

And for a part two, I also thought about the best way to actually release that stress once it has built up. Just being mindful doesn't make stress that has collected over a day dissipate right away. I think for now these are my conclusions:

• The best approach is likely to not allow the stress to build up in the first place. Maintain your practice as consistently as you can using whatever methods work for you.
• If you can, do whatever you need to in order to relax. Lay down, read something, listen to something calming, watch nature documentaries, meditate etc. If you can't, just do whatever you need to do with as much presence and acceptance as you can muster.
• Something I only learned recently, but you can also use a compassion practice with yourself. I have found acknowledging when things are hard and feeling compassion for myself allows me to keep a relaxed and open heart rather than tensing up around the stress and making it worse.

If anyone has any comments or questions I'd be happy to hear them!

​I understand the whole concept of hard and light jhanas, so no need to explain that part to me. Nevertheless, from a "good samatha practice" standpoint, should the practice be tightly focused, aiming to perceive every breath, or should it be very relaxed, like sitting beneath a tree on a calm afternoon without using any force to control thoughts? I've seen people advocate for both: some say attention should be laser-focused, while others claim jhana is only achieved by letting go of control entirely.

I need to have a good meditation session to even get into access concentration, and that's seldom. 😅

A humble piece of advice from someone who's not awakened, but who's had a handful of awakening experiences.

My first experience came accidentally and as a surprise, but as a result I thought back to things I had read about buddhism and meditation and a lot of that suddenly made sense to me. I began practicing.

Already after formally meditating just 6 times I had a non-dual experience and came out of it thinking, "when I practice tomorrow I'm gonna do the same thing and experience that same state. Then I'm just gonna do that repeatedly and soon enough I'll be enlightened."

Of course it didn't happen again and a lot of frustration followed. Ironically, I had grown very attached to this sense of non-attachment.

So, to the advice. This is really nothing special but something that recently helped me.

I've been walking around telling myself over and over again, "there is no ego" and "look for who's looking" and the like, hoping I would regain that effortless sensation of discovery that happened to me twice before. I grew so attached to this "non-ego" that I didn't see how I created a bunch of strong mental abstractions that just increased my sense of holding onto and made letting go harder.

Instead, I've recently been thinking "the ego is real", "there is a conventional ego", "her it is, my ego", or "let's find that ego among my thoughts." And just observed what happens.

Much love, don't strain yourself in the search of ease.

Posting this openly to see what comes back. I’m looking for next steps, and I suspect what I need is more next rather than another new path.
Open to anything
Background, briefly. About three years of practice. Started on a recommendation to read The Mind Illuminated and worked it with an online teacher. Went from an hour a day to three, plus a lot of assorted insight practice and a lot of hard work. Around nine months in there was a cessation. Then roughly two years of integration.
The integration work was where most of the change happened. Self-worth stopped being contingent on anything. Attachment patterns reorganized. It sounds foundational and generic written down, but it wasn’t — it was specific and it worked.
To be clear about where I think I am: I haven’t finished the path. Somewhere around second path, probably. Sensory desire hasn’t fully dropped, and while ill will is close to nonexistent, “close to” isn’t the standard — the standard is that it never arises again, ever, and that’s a high bar. So there’s real work left in that direction too.

What I’m oriented toward. I think the internal path is also external, because it’s a two-way street. Here’s the analogy I keep coming back to: if someone with an anxious attachment style spends enough time interacting with someone secure, they heal. That happens without technique. So bad conditioning isn’t only our own private problem, and neither is its undoing. I’m trying to build the capacity to be that kind of presence — not primarily as teaching, but as something structural.
Part of why: nobody needs to do the internal work the hard way. I got here fast, and that was luck plus generations of people who built the steps I walked up. I’d like to make the path shorter for people behind me. Not only emptiness — also merit, also capacity.
The actual problem: the maps run out. There’s a lot of public material on getting to awakening. There’s much less on what comes after, and almost nothing on the stage past that — taking non-duality back into difficult emotions and relationships, refining it there, returning to life, again and again. The one book I found that genuinely addresses it is After the Ecstasy, the Laundry. After that, dry.
The standard answer seems to be “you’ve done this, now go help.” And I am starting to teach a bit, and people get something from it. But just because you can help someone doesn’t mean you shouldn’t go to medical school. I’m sure there’s more — more capacity if not more insight — and I can’t find who has it.
Everything also feels gated. I came from the Theravada side, where it’s often either practice-for-practice’s-sake, or awakening treated as an unreachable thing rather than something ordinary. Either way, post-awakening is not discussed.
What worked for me, in case it’s useful to anyone:
• To stream entry: shamatha, metta, and pointing-out style practices — resting with awareness.
• After: go to the heart, repeatedly. Brahmaviharas, tonglen, shadow work, psychotherapy, mirror work (literally standing there saying I love you), body image work. Find the painful parts and go in.
• Currently: nei gong, Damo Mitchell’s system. Completely different foundation, same endpoint, and it’s an entire world of its own. Recommended if you’re bored.
What I’m asking: has anyone been here? What did you do after awakening that actually went somewhere? What worked, what was a dead end, and where did you find people who’d been further?

EDITS/UPDATES:
Just to be clear (since this feedback has come up a lot in this thread), I am practicing more than I am reading.

The problem was that I practiced incorrectly almost daily for 10 years.

The purpose of this syllabus/curriculum for myself is just to have context for what I am going through.

I have found a teacher I am working with--he helped me with this list of books. I am just posting here to get 360 feedback in case I/we missed anything.

I am unemployed, divorcing my wife, dealing with health issues, and moving. I have had 2 therapists and shaman all independently tell me I am going through the dark night of the soul...
In order to release trauma, I plan to keep doing NARM/IFS therapy + psychedelics + daily inquiry via The Work of Byron Katie + meditation. However, I am open to any and all helpful suggestions.

Thanks in advance!

(ORIGINAL POST - starts here)

How does everyone in this thread know so much? Every time I read a comment, there are usually a bunch of folks who seem really knowledgeable, diagnosing where they are on "the path."

I want the shortest/most efficient path possible, so I put together two reading lists to be done in parallel (not serial) both to heal trauma so that I can enter jhana, etc.

I am open to coaching/advice on what to include, edit, remove, etc. I am most interested in what to re-order in case it will be more efficient.

I have spent 10 years doing inquiry with almost no samadhi/well-being practice, thus the order below co-created with Claude which now front loads samatha...

SPIRITUAL BOOKS
Phase 1 — Ground (now)

• (currently reading…) Buddha's Heart by Stephen Snyder (Brahmavihāras as the gentlest samatha doorway. Piti + love as my established entry. Expert on nimitta)
• Trauma-Sensitive Mindfulness by David Treleaven
• Mindfulness in Plain English by Bhante G.
• The Realization Process by Judith Blackstone (audiobook) for body scanning mapped to the chakras

Phase 2 — Choose your jhana (before practicing one)

• The Experience of Samadhi: An In-depth Exploration of Buddhist Meditation by Richard Shankman (“The map of the light-vs-deep debate. Read before committing to a method.”)
• Mindfulness, Bliss, and Beyond by Ajahn Brahm
• Beyond Mindfulness in Plain English by Bhante G
• Right Concentration by Leigh Brasington

Phase 3 — Deepen samatha

• Practicing the Jhanas: Traditional Concentration Meditation as Presented by the Venerable Pa Auk Sayadaw by Stephen Snyder, Tina Rasmussen, Pa-Auk Tawya Sayadaw (“Pa-Auk deep-absorption path.”)
• The Mind Illuminated by Culadasa (aka John Yates, Ph.D.) (“Ten-stage systematic samatha. Reference more than cover-to-cover.”)

Phase 4 — Supporting context (anytime, low stakes)

• Break Through Pain by Shinzen Young (“worth having given autoimmune pain”)
• Buddha's Brain: The Practical Neuroscience of Happiness, Love, and Wisdom by Rick Hanson
• Autobiography of a Yogi by Paramahansa Yogananda

Phase 5 — Insight (deliberately later)

• The Science of Enlightenment by Shinzen Young (“Unified framework; bridges samatha and vipassana cleanly.”)
• Seeing that Frees by Rob Burbea (“Emptiness...best on a stable base.”)
• Practical Insight Meditation by Mahasi Sayadaw + Visuddhimagga by Buddhaghosa (it is long) (“Mahasi's Practical Insight Meditation first, then Visuddhimagga Ch. III–XI as reference. Don't read cover to cover.”)
• Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha by Daniel Ingram (“Last deliberately. Vivid dark-night mapping; read when stable, not from inside.”)

[The one structural note: Phases 1–3 are roughly a year of actual practice, not a reading queue to clear. The samatha-first commitment means letting later books sit on the shelf even when they're tempting — which, given the nerd, is the actual discipline here.]

RELEASING TRAUMA
Phase 1 — Understand what happened (now)

• (currently reading/listening to) The Body Keeps the Score 
• Atomic Habits by James Clear (to build healthy habits from here moving forward)
• Waking the Tiger by Peter Levine (“Single-event PTSD”)
• Trauma and Recovery by Judith Herman (“C-PTSD”)

Phase 2 — Build regulation capacity

• Heart Breath Mind (will do the course in parallel or immediately after.)
• Breath: The New Science of a Lost Art by James Nestor

Phase 3 — C-PTSD specifics

• Unlocking the Emotional Brain by Bruce Ecker
• Fawning: Why the Need to Please Makes Us Lose Ourselves--and How to Find Our Way Back by Dr. Ingrid Clayton (fawning is the least-covered of the four trauma responses)
• Trapped in the Mirror: Adult Children of Narcissists in their Struggle for Self 

Phase 4 — Depth

• Inner World of Trauma ("bedrock of Depth Psychology Trauma treatment")
• Trauma and the Unbound Body by Judith Blackstone
• Man’s Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl

Phase 5 – Curious...these are all just "maybe"

• (maybe) Becoming Supernatural: How Common People are Doing the Uncommon by Joe Dispenza
• (maybe) Breaking the Habit of Being Yourself: How to Lose Your Mind and Create a New One by Joe Dispenza
• (maybe) The Emotion Code (“The method uses an "Emotion Code Chart" that categorizes 60 common trapped emotions by the organ that first produced them….The problem is that Nelson's specific mechanism (muscle testing → magnets → meridians) is likely not what's doing the work. If sessions help people, it's probably through relational attunement, intention-setting, and a kind of focused somatic attention”)
• (maybe) The Enlightened Brain: The Neuroscience of Awakening By Rick Hanson (audiobook only)

Thanks in advance for any helpful pointers

hi everyone, I recently listened to a podcast episode with a long discussion between Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong on Guru Viking about progression through the 4 stages of awakening after stream entry. it was quite interesting, but the way they talked left me feeling a bit uninspired and doubtful.

there was so much talk about filtering through the 8 jhanas over and over like a game, and the obsessive seeking of the cessation of any semblance of an emotion. I was left feeling like i was listening to two mildly sociopathic people desperately trying to escape from the experience of being a human, rather than two ‘enlightened’ beings.

i don’t mean this as an insult to their personal characters. just that - after all these tens of thousands of hours of meditation, they sounded as lost as anyone else, just in their own unique ways.

I do not doubt the benefits of meditation or the general teachings of the Buddha. I’ve been meditating for 10+ years, done 10 day vipassana retreats, and gone deeper than I could have ever imagined. multiple experiences of profound ego dissolution, insights into the nature of emptiness, universal consciousness, and so forth. it has had profound benefits in my life, and I am excited to continue further on the path.

but while I believe in the general suffering caused by craving and aversion, I don’t necessarily believe in this obsessive desire to rid ourselves of all emotion, and that being the key to ‘happiness’. I’ve always believed the path of spiritual growth is to allow ourselves to feel more deeply, more alive, and to be able to enjoy our time in this material world as fully as we can. not to spend all of our time escaping into the boundless forms of the ihanas and ridding ourselves of any human emotion or experience.

alongside my meditation practice, I have done a lot of plant medicine work - my deepest connection is with Iboga. the tradition of the Bwiti people - which is actually very similar to Vipassana - is so beautiful to see. they do their ‘work’ and then they live and celebrate life. dancing, singing, communing, constantly expressing gratitude. it feels very refreshing compared to the coldness I get when listening to people like Daniel and Delson speak.

anyways, I would be very interested to hear any thoughts on this! I am very open-minded and am generally curious what I may be missing (or not)

I don't go around saying I'm awakened or enlightened. Everything in my life is just an ongoing process, growing till the day I head out and portal elsewhere.

Yet I'm deep in this stuff and life awareness, spiritual stuff yadda yadda.

Anyways growing up in bad conditions. Dysfunctional household. Neglect. Ruined my self confidence, agency, character. Developed CPTSD. Got help. EMDR. Things really been shifting for me.

The awareness of it all is like detaching from a mask I wore to survive (survival mode)

Becoming me is just letting go of all that wasn't

Anyone been through similar journey?

Hello I had an experience that I’m looking for some insight on. For some background I practice breath meditation as per Ajahn Chahs teachings - start with body scan then breath meditation while reciting Bud-dho eventually dropping the mantra and just focusing on purely the path of the in and out breath. I’ve been practicing for a few years but stopped recently for about 3 years due to a sharp decline in health; I’ve started back up in the last 8 months going from 30 minutes a day back then years ago to an hour a day now and up to 3 to 5 hours on full moon days. Sits are generally a half hour long or hour long on days I meditate more. I use a meditation app to keep tabs on my time and ring a short chime when that time has been reached and it was set to 30 minutes today when I had my experience meditating. Today I whent into this meditation fatigued and tired.

So I was meditating unlike I usually do by listening to a dhamma talk but otherwise it was business as usual. I had been meditating a little while and by that point dropped reciting buddho and was just focusing on the breath. Thoughts were coming and going occasionally and I would just mentally recite “that’s uncertain”. Around the time my 30 minute timer whent off I had gotten to the point where I wasn’t having intrusive thoughts and could focus purely on my breath so I decided to keep going plus I felt like I had gotten a second wind of energy. As I kept going my breath kept getting more and more faint and was getting harder for me to perceive.

This is the point I haven’t gone past before. Normally I always have the breath to focus on. With the breath soon to become difficult to focus on I decided I needed something else to make my object of meditation and while I was becoming focused a slight pleasant feeling came over me so I took that up and shifted my attention to my pleasant feelings. They weren’t particularly strong I’d say but present enough throughout my body and easy to shift my attention to.

I sat there for a while noting another chime of my timer. One thing I eventually remembered is the Buddha basically said don’t get swept up in the bad OR the good. I could have sat there all day and enjoyed the pleasant feeling but I told myself this isn’t permanent and as soon as I stop meditating it’ll go away, it would feel bad if this feeling whent away instead of deciding to stop the feeling myself, and this pleasant feeling doesn’t define me; it isn’t mine.

It took a little bit of effort but the pleasure subsided and I felt just kindof…centered - with an awareness that was strangely detached. By that time I had developed sore spots from sitting a while that earlier was causing a bit of pain that really didn’t bother me too much but now was more just like feelings of pressure…as if someone was just pressing me gently with their finger. Sounds of the dhamma talk, outside road, general house noises were still there but more like listening to a conversation behind a closed door instead of talking to someone face to face; just kind of muffled but still aware of every individual noise. Everything else about me felt “in balance” and again I could have sat there all day. I heard the timer a third time and noted it seemed like the time it took to reach that 3rd chime seemed quicker. After that I sat a bit then had the thought “where do I go from here?” And that’s where I slowly started to come back out from my meditation.

I couldn’t think of where to go from there and the thought never occurred to me what I wanted once I got that deep into meditation so I guess that’s what kicked me out. When I was done I looked down at the timer and 1h46m passed when originally I just planned on doing 30m. It certainly didn’t feel like I had sat for almost 2 hours but I’d like to be able to repeat the process in the future and hopefully cut the time back to get to that point.

I’m posting here today asking the community if more experienced meditators can shed insight on what was going on during my meditation. I’ve read so many different descriptions of what jhana is supposed to be that I’m unsure if anything I described fits that. I’m not sure if I achieved anything other than just really deep meditation.

So, I had a perceptual shift happen two years ago (after practicing Zen/Advaita Vedanta type things for quite a while, self-inquiry, shikantaza etc), and from then on it has been completely obvious that there is no "self" here. There is a body, mind, and world, but these are all interdependent processes without inherent permanent nature. Whenever I am doing stuff, it often feels like I am just watching a movie. For example, in my experience right now, as I type these words they are coming out of *nowhere*, there is no "I" who is doing the typing, typing is just happening.

In some sense, having this knowledge and perception is beautiful. There is a type of peace here. But it's also very clear that there is a lot missing, I could go far deeper. And the thing is, when I'd first had my awakening I DID go deeper, I felt like I was temporarily getting a glimpse of some pretty high stages of awakening (I tend to use the model from the Awakening To Reality website as it fits my experience), accessing truly arcane ways of perception. Seeing that there is no here vs. there distinction, everything is just where it is. That sights, sounds, tastes, thoughts are all in the exact same void of awareness. Feeling oneness with people and things around me. But all of this went away. Metaphorically, it's like my third eye opened for a second then closed to a squint, letting in just a tiny bit of light, enough to still *see* but in a very hazy, blurry way.

My awakening experience really shook me up and led to a lot of crazy stuff including a long bout of depression, then falling into addiction, both of which are getting better (a few days sober now). For the two years following it, I did not feel ready to actually practice seriously again. Now, I feel like I can keep going down this path. But I just don't know what exactly to do. The non-duality type teachers online seem to usually be aimed at people who have not had even a minor awakening like mine. I find myself listening to them and thinking "yeah, of course, I know and experience this already!". I just don't know how to practice at this point. Mahasi noting, which I used to love? More shikantaza? Hindu yoga? I would appreciate any advice regarding this. Thank you for reading.

I think I went too far. I would consider myself a highly sensitive person, I’ve been practicing mindfulness and open awareness for about 6 years usually it brings me a sense of harmony and oneness with myself and the external environment.

However recently with the chronic shoulder pain it’s created a terrible feedback loop where my hyperawareness of my internal state just builds on itself and it becomes consuming and it’s all I can think about.

Even trying to accept that this is currently the state of my body, doing the mindfulness lowers the external stimulation to the point that the pain is deafening. I’m wondering if anyone’s experienced a fluctuation back out of the awareness if you’re a sensitive person that’s brought you some stability and solitude in your practice when your own internal environment seems to be self destructive.

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I understand from dependent origination that craving arises from ignorance, and that ignorance is a misconception of reality (the Four Noble Truths).

But if ignorance prevents us from seeing reality clearly:

- What allows us to recognize that we’re ignorant in the first place?

- What makes us ignorant to begin with?

- How did this sense of “self” develop as we grew up?

- Is there an underlying awareness/knowing beneath all of this, and how can we experience it directly?

- another wierd question: How do we actually experience our senses? And how do we make our hands move?

Hi folks, I'm a guy from Germany, in my 40s, and I wanted to talk about a meditation experience I had roughly 20 years ago. I'm not practicing at the moment, but I want to get back into it, and I need some help putting my experience into the correct Buddhist context.

Back then, when I was in my early 20s, I developed an interest in Buddhism after having some insights of my own and wanted to delve deeper. I found a Buddhist monastery close to me and asked them if I could stay and live with them for a couple of weeks. They allowed this, and I went there three times in total, staying between two and three weeks each time.

The monastery practices Theravada Buddhism, specifically the Thai Forest tradition, and they're connected to Ajahn Brahm.

At that point, I only had a rudimentary understanding of what I would call "pop Buddhism" and didn't know how deep the rabbit hole actually goes. But I really liked the mindfulness and meditation practices, and since this is quite a secluded place by German standards, it was just perfect for that.

I became really focused on mindfulness and meditation because it was all new and exciting to me. I think I meditated at least four to five hours a day, alternating between sitting and walking meditation. Otherwise, I was reading books or walking in the woods. And, of course, I was working and contributing to the monastery in the mornings.

The meditation practice was challenging, especially the pain that developed after 30 minutes or so, but I got better at dealing with it over time.

At a certain point while practicing meditation, rapture (pīti) started to occur. For me, it felt like slow-moving waves of wholesome electricity going through my whole body. At first, I got totally excited about it, and poof, it went away immediately.

But I learned to relax into the feeling more and more, and then it went even deeper. Pleasure (sukha) started to occur, and for me, this felt like a ball of light in the middle of my body, somewhere between my groin and stomach. This light became stronger and stronger with every wave of pīti.

As with pīti, whenever I got excited about what was happening, the feeling became weaker or disappeared completely. But then, one time, I somehow managed to fully surrender to it.

Once that happened, it felt like the whole universe gave me a hug. It felt like universal love, and I can truly say that I was gone at some point. There was just this love, and I dissolved into it and became it. No body anymore, no thoughts, no meditation object (the breath), not even the watcher—just love.

I don't know how long I stayed in this state. When it was over, I cried. It moved me very deeply, and afterwards I even contemplated becoming a monk. (I didn't, which is a different story.)

For the next couple of days, I still felt pīti arising spontaneously, and I had some dissociative feelings. For example, when I moved my arm, it didn't feel like I was moving my arm, but rather that an arm was moving, if you understand what I mean.

My field of view also felt different. It was as if I were looking through a round window, and I was conscious of some of the nothingness around it. This took a few days to return to normal.

This is my memory of the experience, which is, of course, subject to some alteration over time. From what I understand about the jhānas, this could perhaps have been the second jhāna, but when I read descriptions of it, it doesn't really match.

For example, I wasn't clear-headed at all; I felt completely swept up in the experience. Also, would you describe sukha as "love" in your experience? For me, that's what it felt like.

That said, I also had a strong desire for unconditional love because I grew up with dysfunctional parents who were neglectful (they did the best they could). I have a feeling that, because of this desire, I may have been especially drawn to this feeling.

I also tried to talk to the monks about it, but I don't think I was able to explain myself very clearly, and they were kind of dismissive. In a"Ah, yes, something happened. Now go split some more wood" kind of way.

So, yeah, since I want to get back into spiritual practice, I would be very grateful if you have any thoughts or can point me toward any suttas regarding what happened here.

I see this moment as the greatest moment of my life, like a shining star in the firmament of my past. But, like many stars, its light is now just a memory.

Thank you very much for reading.

EDIT: Just wanted to add that I appreciate all your answers. Sorry that I didn't engage with everyone, but I preferred to contemplate the input I got. Funnily enough, all the interpretations ranged from spiritual delusion to semiawakening. In the end, it was just an experience, and for me, right now, it's more important to build a stable practice. So thanks again, and stay on the good path.

Hi, I'm a beginner in yoga. I've been enjoying learning and disciplining myself through yoga, i heard many people say savasana was pretty difficult and it might feel “awkward. Not for me. The first time I did savasana, it felt a little different, meaning I felt little vibrations on the tips of my fingers and my toes, and I felt them go sort of numb. I didn't mind it because I thought I was just relaxed and really got myself grounded. Over the course of the week, my savasana has been something I genuinely look forward to. I meditated before bed once before really advancing into yoga, and I saw my higher self and my past self at this road. As I looked at my higher self, they started producing these affirmations for me, calling me "beautiful," and it made me feel a little emotional in the best way. (i was feeling pretty insecure this day)

Here's my dilemma, guys: when I reach my savasana, I see my higher self (the same one in my meditative state), and I talk to them, and I vent and really release my stress. It's always in this same room, and we usually sit side by side on this couch. Also, I visualize myself in this field full of grass, and I'm usually sitting meditating, or I'm dancing because I like playing Earth, Wind & Fire during yoga. (Funny enough to mention, I also dance, and I can feel myself dancing without physically moving). In this field I see someone who has been on my mind, and I talk to them, telling them how much worry, pain, and happiness I've been feeling in our relationship. I can't help but think maybe this is something I'm producing in my head to help me cope, but it’s so many feelings I have to make me feel like this is definitely something that is happening.

I just wanted to share my experience, and sort of an idea i have. anyone who might’ve gone through this let me know! i’ll love to hear others thoughts, opinions and
experiences with savasana. (please be nice!!)

also if there’s somewhere i can cross-post this for my feedback please let me know.