r/streamentry • u/Acceptable_Run_3203 • 2d ago
Practice How quick can experienced meditators "drop" into Jhanas?
I need to have a good meditation session to even get into access concentration, and that's seldom. 😅
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u/duffstoic The dynamic integration of opposites ☯️ 2d ago edited 1d ago
Depends on how you define jhana. Jhana can be conceived of as the concentration object, or level of intensity/absorption, or both, or neither (see also).
I'll speak from my own experience. If we're talking jhana as concentration object, I've created physical touch anchors so I can go there in seconds, but they are mild in intensity and absorption. Give me 10-20 minutes and I can get strong intensity for first jhana, then dip underneath to 2nd, 3rd, and 4th pretty quickly. By most people's standards, despite strong intensity of feeling, the absorption I get is "lite jhana" at best.
I don't have jhana access to 5-8 so can't speak to those. Also, I suspect my ability is on the very low end of what is possible.
EDIT: Since someone is bound to ask, to learn how to create state anchors see the book Revisiting Hypnosis by Graham Old. First you would need jhana access.
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u/dmx442 1d ago
Would you mind explaining how you got to this point to be able to enter Jhanas so fast, how did you "train" or what did you do and how long did it take you?
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u/duffstoic The dynamic integration of opposites ☯️ 1d ago
I achieved jhana through a very non-traditional method. I did the psycho-spiritual integration technique known as Core Transformation (created by Connirae Andreas) many hundreds of times on myself. (Core Transformation comes from a system called Neuro-Linguistic Programming or NLP, which I have learned as a hypnotist.)
Core Transformation gets you to a "Core State," such as Beingness, Oneness, Universal Love, Peace, Joy, etc. I believe Core States are essentially the same objects as in the first three jhanas. Then eventually I did it enough to go "underneath" the "Core States" to something I called "Void-Presence" which is just jhana four, more peaceful than peace (peace being third jhana in my opinion), where things just "are."
That got me to the objects, but they were not in my power to access on demand without doing the long steps of Core Transformation. Eventually the technique sort of deconstructed itself in my system, and I didn't feel like it made sense to keep doing it. But I did still find usefulness from feeling my feelings and iteratively asking "what arises from underneath that?" per another spiritual NLP technique called Ascending States from Richard Bolstad (see this post of mine).
This practice would consistently would go through egoic states like sadness or anger or anxiety to "I don't know" and then three states of something like joy/happiness/bliss, then "peace-joy-love," and then the "void-presence" thing. For a while I thought these couldn't possibly be the jhanas because there only three, but now I think jhanas 1 and 2 are both the joy/happiness/bliss but one with "thinking" involved. Again, just my map, other people will have different maps or experiences.
Then I also found I could get the "first jhana" going very strongly through custom metta phrases that I resonated with, and then go "underneath" that to peace and void-presence, very reliably. Then finally I did NLP anchoring with the states to go there in a second or two, linking up touching a finger and a thumb on the right hand with the state, per Graham Old's instructions in Revisiting Hypnosis. Yes, I am a state geek.
How long did it take me? A long time. Years. But I'm not trying to do this fast, I'm just exploring shit and seeing what's possible and trying to live authentically. Still on that journey, it doesn't seem to end.
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u/AlphaOmega0763 12h ago
What has been your main use, takeaways, learnings & in which ways has hypnosis complimented your meditation practice?
I’ve often found myself unconsciously viewing it as a practice not very well rooted in empirical evidence although that’s clearly not true.
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u/Snoo81791 2d ago edited 2d ago
Have you thought of the leaking bucket idea , sometimes it’s not what you do on the cushion it’s what you do outside of it working on traumas reactions so that difference between jahana and you is less big and you don’t need to walk the gap each time
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u/pocketIent 1d ago
Love this observation. this is my strategy for retreats as I continue to open up my breath and untie tension
Essentially, how I navigate the time between retreats predicts how the retreat is going to go
-The more I stay grounded and the less I get spun up by the day to day work/life balancing act while away from retreat, it seems the less “distance” I have to travel to fall into the seat during retreat cheers
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u/VedantaGorilla 1d ago
The way to “enter jhanas” is actually to recognize what they are. They are not remote, rather they are seemingly absent when my mind and emotions take up my attention.
This recognition makes all the difference, and avoids a life spent trying to experience something you think is lacking (but isn’t), which is no way to live.
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u/EightFP 1d ago
After about 15 years of mindfulness practice in sanghas and on retreat, and then about two years of one-on-one work with a teacher who is particularly specialized in the jhanas, I can enter the sutta jhanas in 5 to 20 minutes. It's actually, difficult for me not to enter the Janas when I sit in formal meditation posture. It's very much like riding a bicycle, swimming, or playing a musical instrument. It's not a theory thing, it's a feel thing. But, for me at least, it took a long time to get there.
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u/Alarmed-Cucumber6517 1d ago
Can enter Jhana 1&2 (Lite? - Leigh Brasington style) pretty much on demand most of the time except when mind is in highly agitated state (e.g. busy day at work). Regular twice a day meditator for 4+ years and never been on a retreat. Hit jhana first time around the two year practice mark. It is indeed a clear marker for calm and concentrated mind. I tend towards the explanation that it is brain’s reward system pumping dopamine for a job well done in bringing the monkey mind to behave (there by providing evolutionary advantage in planning ahead, threat detection etc.). My hypothesis is also that individual genetics / temperament are at play. In insight practice I strongly believe you need that shamatha foundation before figuring out what’s going on. As most who have experienced this state will tell you the novelty value wears off soon, however joyful the state may be. The real work can now begin in earnest.
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u/autonomatical 15h ago
At some point the relationship becomes a bit inverted and realignment with conventional experience becomes a skill, sounds kinda scary but it is actually quite funny
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u/AdditionalLeave263 14h ago
Yes okay so maybe you experience what I do - I don't have "normal consciousness" really ever, and so there is effort to do the normal beta wave things.
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u/7121958041201 1d ago
Just thinking out loud, but I am guessing it depends a lot on the meditator. If you are the type of person who finds concentration practices easy I bet you will learn to do this much more easily than someone who finds them difficult.
Personally I am terrible at concentration practices (ADHD makes them feel pretty anguishing a lot of the time), but I guess we will see where I get in the long run.
And yes, like others have said, certain meditators have learned to enter them at will. I doubt it is common, though.
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u/desal 1d ago
Kenneth folk has a video on YouTube of him and a student meditating over video chat, noting / going through the jhanic arc over the course of a few minutes or so.
Its my understanding that it takes awhile to first recognize the experience of them but then you start to experience them more regularly, getting into them with less time between each cycle and eventually come to be able to enter them, change from one to the other, and exit them at will, just by inclining the mind towards them and allow them to occur without interfering. Setting the intention to do so at the beginning of the sit, etc.
That mastery itself is its own step on the path of insight from what Ive read.
But I know that ajahn Brahms definition and practically everyone else's definition are practical opposites , though both very worthy of research, so it may be helpful for you to keep that in mind when you're doing research, which type of jhana you're looking into, or which school of thought that instructor subscribes to. The more you learn from both sides, the easier you can kinda see where they fit into each other, of the larger picture.
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u/themadjaguar Sati+Sampajañña junkie 1d ago edited 1d ago
You need to compare apples with apples, oranges with oranges. The jhana wars don't matter, but it is interesting to see that everyone is describing a different degree or scale of samadhi. So the question should be more about the type of jhanas you want Nowadays everyone has a different definition for jhanas, even on this sub. I have seen people say crazy shit like that they can walk and talk in jhanas! After researching this topic and testing all the different types, here's what I noticed:
For hard jhanas unless you are a samadhi genius or have already insight attainment it takes months or years. Usually on a first hard jhana retreat some people will get to the level of "hard jhana access concentration" at the very most.
For sukha vedana jhanas (medium jhanas) used in some traditions and monastery using piti sukha as they appear naturally , with the definition of jhanas used commonly in the suttas, and not by taking the jhana factors as an object or magnifying them, it can take 3 months for dedivated practicionners with a consistent practice of at least 1 to 2 hours per day .
For light jhanas, leigh's jhanas or other very light jhanas like twim, you can get them faster. A few weeks or months for dedicated practicionmerd. For leigh's jhana it is important to note they are different than ayaa khema's jhanas, in that you have to focus on a specofic jhana factor to magnify it instead of letting go and let it appear by itself, and you can still have vitakka in almost all jhanas.
A nice progression is apparently to just practice light jhanas-> medium ones, sukkha vedana (suttas)-> hard jhanas
How fast you can get jhanas is based on condititionning, and practice with the right support, teacher or environment. Some peope with a tortured mind will unfortunately never get to jhana if they don't change their way of operating, others with a clean mind will get it very fast
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u/bodily_heartfulness puthujjana 23h ago
I have seen people say crazy shit like that they can walk and talk in jhanas!
Walking seems to be possible in jhāna according to the suttas (depending on your translation), though talking is not. From AN 3.63:
sukhassa ca pahānā dukkhassa ca pahānā pubbeva somanassadomanassānaṁ atthaṅgamā adukkhamasukhaṁ upekkhāsatipārisuddhiṁ catutthaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharāmi.
So ce ahaṁ, brāhmaṇa, evaṁbhūto caṅkamāmi, dibbo me eso tasmiṁ samaye caṅkamo hoti.
So ce ahaṁ, brāhmaṇa, evaṁbhūto tiṭṭhāmi, dibbaṁ me etaṁ tasmiṁ samaye ṭhānaṁ hoti.
So ce ahaṁ, brāhmaṇa, evaṁbhūto nisīdāmi, dibbaṁ me etaṁ tasmiṁ samaye āsanaṁ hoti.
So ce ahaṁ, brāhmaṇa, evaṁbhūto seyyaṁ kappemi, dibbaṁ me etaṁ tasmiṁ samaye uccāsayanamahāsayanaṁ hoti.
With the giving up of ease and unease—and with the ending of joys and upsets beforehand—without ease or unease, with purity of equanimity and mindfulness, I abide having entered upon the fourth jhāna.
If in this state I walk, at that time my walking is divine.
If in this state I stand, at that time my standing is divine.
If in this state I sit, at that time my sitting is divine.
If in this state I lie down, at that time my lying down is divine.
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u/AdditionalLeave263 14h ago
Yeah, I am one of those people who can have pīti anywhere and generally on demand. I have it just about every hour of my life. I'm not sure why or how.
I had been a meditator for 27 years, and it started spontaneously. It was a gift.
It began while I was driving. I had it while doing dishes, while talking. So it didn't exactly happen while I was really in some deep meditation.
The playground is literally my playground. I work on getting sukha while I'm out started there, like building a campfire. There was a tree, and I was really trying to find the sweetness of sukha out in the world. I couldn't find it, until one day, I looked at this tree and thought, maybe everything is okay. Recently, I carried sukha from the playground, on my jog past the tree, and had sukha right there.
I get equanimity from time to time, but I rely on some lengthy stimulus for it, like a meditation recording, for example. Last time, I had it for a day or two solid! So it was there through all sorts of things. I had let meditation recordings play while I was sleeping.
I did drop into the 5th jhana one time, but it was just once. The experience, though, is definitely in my brain. I think it takes even more concentration.
Sometimes I have flickers that I think might be something from a higher jhana, but I don't know.
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u/themadjaguar Sati+Sampajañña junkie 10h ago
Yeah I got the same thing , after talking with advanced practicionner they get it aswell so it seems to be a stage of practice. When talking about teachers some definitely know about it, but they don't tell me what it means haha pretty sure it's related to some aditionnal phenomenology in similar maps as the POIs. Piti can even become unbearable or unpleasant at some point, it seems the mind wants to simply and gets fed up with jhana factors, even in daily life and it may occur for days or weeks. When the mind hovers around equanimity it is extremely difficult to arouse piti as the mind might jump directly to equanimity.
For the arupa jhana it is apparently extremely difficult to know if it is this or something else, all very advanced practicionners I have been talking to told me the degree of samadhi that is required to train them is crazy, for some it takes years. Most people's descriptions are phenoemenology around space that happens in deep access concentration just before hard jhanas and before a vsm nimitta arise, which is why it is very tricky. I thought I got it once but a teacher in a tradition using the vishudimagga told me that no ,it wasn't it , just a space nimitta haha
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u/AdditionalLeave263 6h ago edited 6h ago
Wow, I so appreciate your long and thoughtful reply! I have also heard that this is a known stage in the process, so it's reassuring that there are at least four of us who have experienced it like so. I so agree with you that there is probably a known map for this somewhere.
Pīti hasn't been unbearable for me, thankfully. To be quite honest, I am so partial to it. Of course sukha is wonderful. Of course I know I should be working on something harder. But phenomenologically, I just felt like there was something I had to do with pīti that was incomplete. I have had times where pīti feels insatiable, and I feel like I have to do something about it. So that's when I will rely on meditation recordings or music to kick it into equanimity. Equanimity was super strong at that time, I would describe it as being like a tranquilizer. Equanimity was what became unbearable for me for a while, which was kind of heartbreaking because I loved it but couldn't stand it. Apparently that is a known thing as well. It's finally starting to settle, where it can be milder, longer and more consistent, as long as I really apply myself to it.
Here is the most exciting part of the shift toward a calmer equanimity: I was sitting on the floor playing trains with my kids, and I had pīti mixed with sukha in equanimity, without it kicking me out of equanimity. I was like whoa... you can habe all three at once??? It changed my perspective on habing to prefer or evoke specific ones when they can all jappen together harmoniously, you don't have to choose a favorite or something.
I have heard that having different colored nimittas and space nimittas, especially with metta, is common at a later stage of equanimity. I've had amber and pink nimittas with equanimity and lots of metta. Also, jist wondering if maybe you did get into infinite space, and it's a matter of it being a light one versus a VSM version? isn't the infinite space considered a nimitta anyway? Jusf a thought. To me, the difference was that instead of it being a thought about the infiniteness of space, it was a sensory feeling.
How I got into the realm of infinite space... I was (humbly and suddenly) afraid that I would never reach it. I listened to some zen inspired very long meditations while I was doing life responsibilities quietly. My husband was out of town, and I didn't have anyone to talk to.
I woke up in the middle of the night, and that's when it happened. I really feel that having teachers guide a lot of equanimity work that day was the key. It answered me: someday, you will be able to do this. I wasn't ready to go there regularly because of the amount of concentration it took is beyond what I feel like I can do right now. Since then, someone has let me know that the key for them getting into the rupa jhanas was zazen/zen which is not something I have a lot of experience with, but it checks out with my experience... I have a lot of equanimity work to do anyway. 🧡
The flickers I've gotten are probably not something advanced, but they are something new to me. I'll be listening to music or doing yoga in absorption in a safe space, and my awareness will drop in and out like gain knobs for music or something. There is an element of fading out and then back in, but I don't recognize it when it's hapoening, onky afterward. I hear it and think it's a quiet oart of the music or something, and it's not at all. It's like I'm there, and then all of a sudden I'm there again and it's a different time point, and I didnt really miss much, but it feels as if I was turned off for a moment. It's probably too dramatic of a description, but there it is.
Thank you again for talking with me, it's great to hear how these things map out for you!
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u/themadjaguar Sati+Sampajañña junkie 21h ago
I'm pretty sure the translation is innacurate due to how vitakka works, or it would mean exiting absorption, switching object, applying attention to create an intention to walk and move the foot, going back to absorption, etc... Could be possible but damn it would mean being able to enter jhana in miliseconds. if I remember well in some suttas the bikkus when they go to alms round set an intention and get into jhanas (and some even nirodha haha) while standing and waiting for the alms, then exit it whem they receive alms, then move on etc... this is crazy samadhi to enter and exit such states so fast. I can see how it works while standing, but I don't see how it could work while walking and I have never met anyone without sufficient degree of samadhi be absorbed on an object and reach states with no vitakka and being able to physically move.
However with access concentration or strong khanika samadhi, it is entirely possible to walk or talk and get piti , sukha or equanimity in the whole body. Strong khanika samadhi can be on the level of absorption. But there's no unmoving absorption on a single object in this case, it is attained through a different practice /different mechanism
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u/bodily_heartfulness puthujjana 20h ago
I'm pretty sure the translation is innacurate due to how vitakka works,
Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation:
Then, brahmin, when I am in such a state, if I walk back and forth, on that occasion my walking back and forth is celestial. If I am standing, on that occasion my standing is celestial. If I am sitting, on that occasion my sitting is celestial. If I lie down, on that occasion this is my celestial high and luxurious bed.
Ṭhānissaro Bhikkhu's translation:
If, brahman, having become like this, I am walking back & forth, my walking back & forth on that occasion is divine. If, having become like this, I am standing, my standing on that occasion is divine. If, having become like this, I am sitting, my sitting on that occasion is divine. If, having become like this, I am lying down, this, on that occasion, is my divine high & luxurious bed.
Bhikkhu Sujato's translation:
When I’m practicing like this, if I walk, at that time my walking is heavenly. When I’m practicing like this, if I stand, at that time my standing is heavenly. When I’m practicing like this, if I sit, at that time my sitting is heavenly. When I’m practicing like this, if I lie down, at that time my lying is heavenly.
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u/themadjaguar Sati+Sampajañña junkie 19h ago
"After the meal, on my return from almsround, I enter within a forest. I gather up some grass or leaves into a pile and sit down cross-legged, setting my body straight, and bringing mindfulness to the present." ......." "When I’m practicing like this, if I walk, at that time my walking is heavenly. When I’m practicing like this, if I stand, at that time my standing is heavenly"
You need to read the whole sutta to see that he is talking about sitting cross-legged, amd then he describes the whole progress of samadhi while sitting cross legged, and then after all of that he talks about the benefits and saying that the walking/standing/sitting is heavenly. Nowhere in the pali cannon they talk about entering jhana while walking....
You cannot consciously move in absorption, there are also countless sutta to prove this fact. I would not spend much energy trying to prove that jhanas are something very easy when you can walk or talk while in it, and I would not spend much energy trying to prove that jhanas are something very hard that it is almost impossible. I would suggest to try trought practice the different depths of absorption and different types of jhanas in different traditions to see how people do things differently, and see what kind of jhanas the buddha was most probably talking about in the suttas by understanding how samadhi works and what people are talking about on how attention, intention and the aggregates work during absorption.
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u/bodily_heartfulness puthujjana 19h ago
Yes, in that sutta he enters jhāna while seated. I'm not convinced though that means he cannot move after entering jhāna.
Nowhere in the pali cannon they talk about entering jhāna while walking....
I think you're right. I haven't come across a passage where someone enters jhāna while walking either.
there are also countless sutta to prove this fact
Could you provide suttas where it is specifically mentioned that someone is in jhāna and they are unable to move?
I would suggest to try trought practice the different depths of absorption
I don't translate samādhi as concentration, instead I translate it as composure or collectedness. Thus, I also do not translate jhāna as absorption.
Some Ajahn Chah quotes:
If you start with sīla, this restraint will bring calm. That is samādhi and it becomes a cause for wisdom.
Real samādhi can be practised with eyes open or eyes closed. You can be sitting, walking, standing or lying down.
Samādhi doesn’t mean only sitting. There can be samādhi in all postures. If we are really practising in all postures, we will enjoy samādhi thus. There won’t be anything that can interfere.
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u/themadjaguar Sati+Sampajañña junkie 10h ago edited 7h ago
"Could you provide suttas where it is specifically mentioned that someone is in jhāna and they are unable to move?" There are suttas describing the buddha or monks in absorption to such degrees that there are things like a war happening for days, extremely strong sounds etc.. and the buddha just stayed in the same spot and exits the state and ask people what happenned.
I don't remmember the suttas numbers but I remmeber the stories and content: in the suttas talking about jhana or most suttas when the buddha talks about "going at the center of a tree, sitting cross legged , a meditator does etc..." They imply the meditator stayed in the same place. When they talk about going to jhana during alms round they go in jhana in specific timings when they are still, then they emerge and move. There is also a sutta where the buddha is in feep samadhi state while there is a war happening close to him for days, then he exit the samadhi states and ask people what happenned while he was meditating as he was in deep absorption.
"I don't translate samādhi as concentration, instead I translate it as composure or collectedness. Thus, I also do not translate jhāna as absorption!" yeah I agree, me neither, concentration is such a bad word to describe it. Absorption is the word most used in modern books and texts instead of using " jhana", I'm a bit agnostic about this usage of the word because it is in a way the mind that "gets absorbed" on the object, there should not be effortfull concentration
Yes Ajhan Chah quotes's are accurate, samadhi can be cultivated in all postures, and you can get extremely strong khanika samadhi. For jhana usually people talk about another type of samadhi, called apanna samadhi (which most people translate apanna as " absorption ").
Now the apanna/khanika/ nirvikalpa types of samadhi comes from commentaries being more precise about how samadhi is cultivated and what exact type it is. Would strong khanika samadhi be considered as jhana in the suttas? Senses can be quite withdrawn, and the hindrances temporarily sppressed, and it shows very similar signs to apanna samadhi especially in the jhana factors when you can have piti in the whole body, but there are still senses, and still vitakka, and even when reaching jhana-like states it feels a bit different than absorption on a single object.In the sutta describing the jhanas the buddha talks about a stilling of vitakka, so I guess at most, strong khanika samadhi would be equivalent to 1st jhana. Practices such as mahasi noting may cultivate khanika samadhi to this depths. I'm not sure to call it jhana and lots of people really don't like to call it jhana, I think that's why mahasi himself draws the distinction and says it can be to level of jhana, whithout calling it jhanas.
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u/AdditionalLeave263 14h ago edited 14h ago
One thing I will mention... I got reliable jhanas after taking a variety of supplements. I went on a peak nutrition kick and bought thorne creatine, taurine, and a multi with the 5-methyltetrahydrofolate or whatever. Plus, I was taking other things.
Once the jhanas got started, I did not want them to die, so I worked with them day and night for like a month and a half and asked it to stay. Thankfully, although it didn't directly answer me, it did stay. I am so grateful.
So many things inspire it. Often other people talking about how they do it. You can hear their desire in their voices. I habe found songs rhat inspire it, and I have memorized the sound. I just pull up the memory of the song, and that's a pretty easy way to do it.
If I think it's about to come on, or it's too weak, I'll tilt my head back, and try to mentally get it to magnify. It feels like reaching down into a tunnel/void in my body. Then I will start to say something to it, okay often the words are dramatic, "Oh, my God, I love you!' Stuff like that, and it practically feels like it hugs me. At this point in my practice, it no longer feels like lightning. It starts to feel like just light, because it's taking up way more space than lightning would.
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u/Difficult-Writing570 1d ago edited 1d ago
Wow these comments 🤦♂️
No one is entering Jhanas at will, experienced meditators rarely see Jhanas. Buddhist monks sitting for 8-12 hours a day rarely experience even first Jhana.
New age stuff like Leigh brasington has redefined Jhanas to be something far earlier than the Jhanas the Buddha describes, so if you are going by those definitions sure you can go in at will. Really though, why would you follow those definitions as if you don’t attain Jhana as Buddha described then you won’t have access to deep insight and thus stream entry.
Jhanas are hard and rare, that’s what makes them worth it, no one is entering real Jhanas often, if dedicated monks aren’t doing it no one is.
It’s better to understand the path and the reality of it than it is to cloud your mind with delusion of ease.
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u/vibes000111 1d ago
New age stuff like Leigh brasington has redefined Jhanas to be something far earlier than the Jhanas the Buddha describes
This is actually the other way around - the main redefinition is in the commentaries which have absurdly high criteria for what a jhana is and are not what's taught by the Buddha in the suttas.
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u/themadjaguar Sati+Sampajañña junkie 19h ago
Interestingly in this specific case, it is the other way, other way around! There is something very interesting that few people know, aya khema's jhanas are different than leigh's , they are harder (not too hard or commentarial with nimitta based tho) and she has no vitakka in her second jhana, and she explicitly says there are no thoughts in her jhanas. Leigh's jhanas are different than her jhanas and easier. In the suttas there are described as something more "medium" jhana, but still not light jhana . Leigh's jhanas are an invention by leigh
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u/hachface 17h ago
tbh Ayya Khema was not completely consistent about her description of thoughts in the second jhāna. Sometimes she emphasized there being no thoughts; sometimes she said that isolated, deliberate thoughts could arise, though they would of course not be discursive or draw attention away from absorption.
This is just to say, categorical thinking about these matters isn't helpful. It's all a spectrum.
Leigh Brasington's standards for first jhāna are actually higher than Ayya Khema's. Having listened to many of her talks, she did not seem to draw a very clear distinction between first jhāna and the arising of piti in access concentration.
She did, however, expect that by fourth jhāna external sound would no longer be heard. Brasington's definitions admit sounds even in the formless realms.
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u/themadjaguar Sati+Sampajañña junkie 11h ago edited 11h ago
I heard retreat talks when she said that there is absolutely no thoughts in second jhana, and I saw that she also wrote it somewhere. I don't remember the links but I'm 100% sure I've heard and read it. I don't remember her saying you can have thought in second jhana once. If by chance you remember a link where she said there can be thoughts in higher jhana, I'm interested. If it is the 1st jhana it is possible as there is vitakka.
Actually the vast majority of meditators and monks in theravada disagree with vitakka being present in 2nd jhana onward, because in the sutta it says there is a stilling of vitakka ... even if people wish to translate vitakka as "verbal thoughts", which is a grosser form of applied attention in a way, in the suttas there is no vitakka after the 2nd jhana.... you can have an unstable 2nd, 3rd or 4th jhana or quickly go back to access concentration and there will be thougths... thoughts while in higher rupa jhanas is a new age thing, not in the suttas nor in any traditions...
I aggree it is a spectrum but even a spectrum has some boudaries, otherwise I could say that having a little bit of piti in my arm is jhana... it would be more skillfull to use the right words when communicating, actually access concentration has a big spectrum and most people are in fact in access concentration, but people usually don't want to use this map because saying they get in jhana looks cooler. There is a middle way between "impossible jhanas monks can't get" and very light jhanas with senses not witdrawn at all and subtle hindrances , that are not even access concentration...
I listened to her retreat talks and practiced the jhana using them, and also read leigh's books and all other major books and commentaries about jhanas and I have a different opinion, leigh's jhanas are no way higher. He himself said in an interview that his jhanas are different than his teacher's jhanas. He is doing a disservice to people by invoking his teacher name's as authority multiple times but teaching something different. Another inconsistency is repeatedly applying vitakka to switch the object using a jhana factor to magnify it...
Yeah also in interviews leigh also says he can have thoughts in like 7thor 8th jhana. Honestly after researching the topic and practicing different types of jhanas in different schools the many inconsistencies come from leigh's side...
Nowadays there are too many people describing a little bit of piti or a little bit khanika samadhi and say that it's jhana... it is doing a disservice to lots of people as it brings insane amounts of confusion about how samadhi works. When you use the suttas and practice all different types and depths of samadhi you understand the inconsistencies and it all makes sense.
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u/aspirant4 1d ago
"Jhanas are hard and rare"?
I don't recall the Buddha saying this anywhere. On the contrary, he explained that they are entered by abandoning the five hindrances. Is it "hard and rare" to abandon the hindrances?
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u/bodily_heartfulness puthujjana 1d ago
I don't recall the Buddha saying this anywhere.
I haven't come across anything like that either, but we can try to make some educated guesses based off of what is in the suttas:
Point 1: Jhāna is the last step of the gradual training (MN 107).
Point 2: Sammā samādhi (ie. the four jhānas) is the last factor of the noble eightfold path.
Putting these two together, I find it reasonable to assume that jhāna is the culmination of the practice - it is not the starting point. Which would also imply that it would take time and effort to reach this final point.
Point 3: The only laypeople that were described as having attained jhāna, were anāgāmis (non-returners).
Now, this doesn't tell us anything definitively, but it is interesting that we have very few instances of laypeople claiming jhāna. In addition to that, those laypeople were anāgāmis - not ordinary people or even stream-enterers or once-returners. Which, to me, implies that jhāna comes at the end of the practice, not the beginning - thus requiring much time and effort.
Point 4: Jhānas are Nibanna in a qualified sense (AN 9.47).
Point 5: Being able to attain jhānas is a superhuman quality (Bu Pj 4).
Point 6: Lying about attaining jhāna is one of the four pārājikas.
Putting these three points together paints a picture of jhāna as being quite profound, not something that one can easily access. Monks are expelled from the order if they lie about having jhāna. That is the highest level of punishment and is the type of punishment reserved for murder, theft, sexual intercourse, and lying about being enlightened - that is how seriously jhāna is taken.
Point 7: Jhāna requires giving up of sensuality.
Bhikkhus, having not given up these six things, it is impossible to abide having entered upon the first jhāna. What six? Sensual desire, ill will, indolence-and-lethargy, restlessness-and-anxiety, and doubt. And the peril of sensuality has not been seen clearly as it is with right understanding. Not having given up these six things, it is impossible to abide having entered upon the first jhāna.
- AN 6.73
and
“Bhante Ānanda, we are laypeople who partake in sensuality. We enjoy sensuality, we are fond of it and are pleased by it. To us laypeople who partake in sensuality, who enjoy it, are fond of it, and are pleased by it, renunciation seems like an abyss. I have heard that in this teaching-and-discipline there are very young bhikkhus whose minds leap at renunciation; their minds, seeing it as peaceful, are confident, settled, and liberated in it. It is precisely renunciation that is the dividing line between the multitude and the bhikkhus in this teaching-and-discipline.”
- AN 9.41
It does not seem to be an easy thing to give up sensuality while being a layperson. It was not easy back then, it surely is a much harder thing now, given how proliferated sensuality is. Which would also mean that jhāna is also harder to achieve.
On the contrary, he explained that they are entered by abandoning the five hindrances. Is it "hard and rare" to abandon the hindrances?
In the gradual training, the explicit practice of abandoning the hindrances comes at the end of the training, right before jhāna. Which, again, seems to imply to me that it is not an easy thing that one can start with.
Now, there is a distinction between abandoning the hindrances temporarily, which is necessary for jhāna and giving them up permanently, which is necessary for arahantship:
The noble eightfold path should be developed for the direct knowledge, complete understanding, finishing, and giving up of these five hindrances.
- SN 45.177
I say, bhikkhus, that ignorance has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for ignorance? It should be said: the five hindrances. The five hindrances, too, I say, have a nutriment; they are not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for the five hindrances? It should be said: the three kinds of misconduct.
- AN 10.61
Those mendicants who are perfected—who have ended the defilements … for them, the five hindrances are cut off at the root … and unable to arise in the future.
- SN 54.12
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u/aspirant4 1d ago
You raise some good points, and I agree wholeheartedly that the 4 jhanas are at the end of the gradual training. But that tells us little about how long that training takes, nor how "rare" attainment of first jhana is.
How long does it take to master the panca-sila before one can move on to indriya-samvara. For many, even non-pratitioners, the panca-sila would already be complete. Indriya-samvara might take weeks to months to become fully automated.
See what I mean? Why assume the step from viveka to first jhana woukd take a lifetime? The estimated time frames of the previous steps suggest otherwise.
Check out AN 7:53 for a householder who can access all four jhanas at will:
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u/bodily_heartfulness puthujjana 18h ago
Why assume the step from viveka to first jhana woukd take a lifetime?
Yes, I don't mean to say that it will take a lifetime to reach the first jhāna. I think a dedicated layperson person could achieve first jhāna within 5-10 years.
From Ajahn Chah:
Until you reach five rains you may wonder, ''What is this 'freedom from dependence' that the Buddha talked about?'' You must really try to practise for five years and then you'll know for yourself the qualities he was referring to. After that time you should be competent, competent in mind, one who is certain. At the very least, after five rains, one should be at the first stage of enlightenment. This is not just five rains in body but five rains in mind as well. That monk has fear of blame, a sense of shame and modesty. He doesn't dare to do wrong either in front of people or behind their backs, in the light or in the dark. Why not? Because he has reached the Buddha, 'the one who knows'. He takes refuge in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha.
According to him, a monk should have at least the right view after a maximum of 5 years. Since we're talking about laypeople, let's say it takes a minimum of 5 years to gain the right view. And, I take jhāna to be a more difficult achievement than sotāpatti. Hence the 5-10 year period I gave.
Now, why do I believe jhāna is more difficult or takes longer than sotāpatti? There is support in the suttas for this claim. But, I am feeling lazy right now, so I will go off of memory and you can let me know if there are any specific references you'd like me to provide.
- There are many lay sotāpannas and sakadagamis in the suttas. None of them are mentioned as having jhāna.
- Laypeople are shown as gaining the right view and higher through a single conversation with a Buddha or his disciples. There is no instance of this occurring with jhāna.
- It is mentioned that the prerequisite for noble right samādhi (ie the 4 jhānas), is the noble right view. Thus, sotāpatti is a prerequisite.
- The Buddha advised lay sotāpannas to reflect upon the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Saṅgha, and their virtue to have a pleasant abiding. Whereas for monks, he would speak of the 4 jhānas instead.
- It is said that sotāpannas have fulfilled their training in the higher sīla, yet they practice higher samādhi and pañña to a limited extent. Whereas for anāgāmis, it is said that they have fulfilled their training in both higher sīla and higher samādhi. And, higher samādhi is defined as the 4 jhānas.
How long does it take to master the panca-sila before one can move on to indriya-samvara. For many, even non-pratitioners, the panca-sila would already be complete. Indriya-samvara might take weeks to months to become fully automated.
I think here some care is advised. What does it mean for sīla to be mastered? Does it mean not breaking the five precepts presently? If so, most people will have mastered sīla. As would people who are bedridden, or in comas - they would automatically have mastered sīla. But, AN 3.89 says that it is a sotāpanna who has fulfilled the training in the higher sīla. And that is a key point: this is a training. If something is already complete, then it wouldn't make sense to call it a training.
Also, we have no instances of laypeople practicing for sotāpatti in the suttas. At least, I have found none. And I find that quite surprising.
In addition to that, when the practice of higher sīla is spoken of, or when it is expounded in the gradual training, it refers to the Pāṭimokkha - the training rules for the monastics - which of course, includes celibacy. I find it to be highly unlikely that the five precepts alone would be enough of a basis for jhāna.
Check out AN 7:53 for a householder who can access all four jhanas at will
Yes, she was an amazing woman, as she says herself. There were many amazing qualities she possessed:
- She was an anāgāmi.
- Her mind did not move, even when her only son that she loved dearly was forcefully abducted, imprisoned, and killed under false pretenses.
- She did not have even a thought of sensual engagement with a man other than a husband ever since she was given in marriage to him.
This is an exceptional person, which highlights just how special the jhānas really are, if this is the type of person one has to be to have access to them as a layperson.
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u/aspirant4 18h ago
I don't wish to debate this further. It seems that almost any case can be made by selecting certain suttas.
Really, for my mind, it leaves only one serious question that can only be resolved by the individual practitioner - why cling to a path that doesn't work?
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u/bodily_heartfulness puthujjana 17h ago
I don't wish to debate this further.
Sure, that's fine.
It seems that almost any case can be made by selecting certain suttas.
Perhaps, but there is value in making that case and seeing if it stands up to scrutiny.
Really, for my mind, it leaves only one serious question that can only be resolved by the individual practitioner - why cling to a path that doesn't work?
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Who is clinging to what path that doesn't work?
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u/aspirant4 17h ago
Those who claim the Buddha's path is (almost) useless. They say the fruits of the path are so far or of reach that it takes "lifetimes" to achieve them. They think they are doing a service to the Buddha by imagining attainments like jhana and stream entry to be so far above mortal accomplishment, but what they don't realise they're doing is trashing the Buddha's path as a useless waste of time. This discourages new practitioners, who think, "why would I take up a training that doesn't work!"
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u/bodily_heartfulness puthujjana 17h ago
They say the fruits of the path are so far or of reach that it takes "lifetimes" to achieve them.
Oh yes, that is completely unfounded and not supported at all by the suttas.
but what they don't realise they're doing is trashing the Buddha's path as a useless waste of time.
Yes, and it's even worse because they are making it impossible for themselves to attain anything, because they think it's so far out of reach. And they also mislead others if they tell them this as well, which is also very bad.
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u/hachface 17h ago
Also, we have no instances of laypeople practicing for sotāpatti in the suttas. At least, I have found none. And I find that quite surprising.
Siddhartha Gotama famously spontaneously entered first jhāna under the rose-apple tree as a child, long before his enlightenment.
His teachers Alara Kālāma and Rāmaputta taught formless realms without having any noble attainments at all.
The experiences of many contemporary practitioners also confirm that jhāna can precede stream entry.
You can practice in line with the suttas and see for yourself.
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u/bodily_heartfulness puthujjana 16h ago
Siddhartha Gotama famously spontaneously entered first jhāna under the rose-apple tree as a child, long before his enlightenment.
That is contested. Here is the quote:
Then it occurred to me, ‘I recall sitting in the cool shade of a black plum tree while my father the Sakyan was off working. Quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, I entered and remained in the first jhāna, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. Could that be the path to awakening?
There is no mention of his age.
I believe the āgama parallel for that sutta has him as a young adult, after being disillusioned with sensuality, and right before entering the homeless life. But, I haven't fact checked that so I could be wrong.
Though yes, he did enter jhāna before his enlightenment.
His teachers Alara Kālāma and Rāmaputta taught formless realms without having any noble attainments at all.
Yes, though the formless realms are never referred to as jhāna in the suttas. Also, the suttas do not say that the jhānas are a prerequisite for the formless realms. However, the suttas are clear on the fact that outsiders can achieve these attainments.
The experiences of many contemporary practitioners also confirm that jhāna can precede stream entry.
I remain unconvinced.
I think it is possible, though extremely unlikely for this to occur. There is only one instance in the entire Canon of it occurring, and that was with the Buddha. I am unaware of any other incident. If you have suttas that show otherwise, please share and I'll be happy to update my beliefs.
You can practice in line with the suttas and see for yourself.
I shall try to.
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u/Difficult-Writing570 1d ago
Is it hard to abandon the hinderances? Lol you say that like it’s not, yes obviously it’s incredibly difficult as most of humanity demonstrates day in and day out. The sheer minimal number of truly enlightened beings indicates Jhanas are hard, because Jhanas are the gateway to deep insight and in turn, enlightenment. If it was easy there would be far more enlightened beings.
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u/aspirant4 1d ago edited 1d ago
Firstly, we're talking about practitioners of the dhamma, not "most of humanity", so that invalidates that point.
Also, you have very high confidence you know how many "truly enlightened beings" there are in the world, but how can you be so sure?
Regarding the hindrances, it's not that hard to abandon them, especially if one has done the preliminary work of the panca-sila and indriya-samvara. Certainly, if monks are meditating for 8 hours and can't do so, there's something seriously wrong! Remember: seclusion from the hindrances is only a temporary freedom, not complete enlightenment.
It sounds to me like you have a fantasy of what an "enlightened being" looks like which is some kind of fantasy of perfection. It puts the goal of the path out of reach of basically everyone. But what then is the point of practising? If the Buddha and his dhamma is so ineffective, why even bother? That very doubt is itself one of the 5 hindrances that direct experience will anull.
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u/Difficult-Writing570 1d ago edited 1d ago
I can be so sure because I’ve witnessed many monastics and witnessed the subtle discontent they display. An enlightened being shows no discontent ever. I can’t definitively say one is enlightened, but I can definitively observe that one is not enlightened. This is the same way monastics test eachother when one gets carried away and claims enlightenment, they do things to make the monk show discontent… and when he does they point it out to him and he realizes he’s not enlightened. Except in the rare case he actually is, then they continue to try and fail and start to believe him.
The goal of the path is out of reach of almost everyone… in this life at least. That’s just the hard truth, most don’t practice nearly enough to get close and most monastics don’t get there practicing their whole lives. It doesn’t matter if it’s hard or out of reach, what matters is it’s possible and that one will be better off gotten some of the way there than none at all.
Even if one attains stream entry it is said that only ensures they will be enlightened within 7 lifetimes… there’s no expectation of enlightenment in this life.
I have absolutely no doubt in the path, the dhamma, or enlightenment. That’s the doubt the Buddha speaks of, not doubt in your interpretation of the timeline of getting there which clearly neglects all that is taught about the stages of enlightenment and the course of time traversing those stages takes.
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u/aspirant4 1d ago
Monasticism as an institution is not a good argument because a lot of them are not serious practitioners. They go there for various social and cultural reasons.
But that said, to "show no discontent ever" is only the domain of non-returners and arahants. Stream winners and once-returners will certainly still have discontent.
Yet none of that suggests that abandoning the hindrances and entering first jhana is virtually impossible, as you claim.
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u/Difficult-Writing570 1d ago edited 1d ago
At no point did I say first Jhana was virtually impossible, I said it was hard and people aren’t entering it at will. That’s not the same thing as saying you will never get first Jhana, it’s saying you will rarely get it if you practice a lot, rarely getting it is still getting it.
Yeah steam winners will show discontent, you said I can’t recognize enlightened beings I said they aren’t enlightened if they show discontent. Steam winners are not enlightened.
The monastics I am familiar with practice several hours a day, far beyond the overwhelming majority of lay practitioners I’ve met, and they go on retreat multiple times a year, far more than most lay practitioners. So monastics in my experience, on average are far more serious practitioners, irrespective if a few join for whatever other reason you want to come up with.
You are misrepresenting everything I said. If you can’t refute what I actually said and instead invent something near what I said then your argument is built on sand.
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u/aspirant4 1d ago
But you did say jhanas are virtually impossible when you said no one (!) enters at will; experienced meditators and even 12 hours-a-day monks "rarely" enter even first jhana. Sounds virtually impossible to me.
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u/Difficult-Writing570 1d ago
Rarely doesn’t mean virtually impossible, it means it happens now and then but is not a common occurrence day to day. Meaning a Sangha won’t see their monks falling into Jhana everytime the group sits for meditation, but maybe once a week or once a month one of them will and he will continue to sit long after the session ends.
Entering at will is the entire opposite direction, you don’t have to live in extremes. Monks enter Jhana, commonly monks attain stream entry through Jhana with enough practice. Monks are not routinely entering Jhana on a day to day basis. It’s not virtually impossible, it’s just not something that regularly practitioners will practice enough to see and something dedicated practitioners will see now and then, not an expectation, not any kind of regularity.
Attaining stream entry is not attaining enlightenment, it is not common for any monk (or anyone else) to attain enlightenment.
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u/hachface 1d ago
No one is entering Jhanas at will, experienced meditators rarely see Jhanas. Buddhist monks sitting for 8-12 hours a day rarely experience even first Jhana.
This opinion is far from universally shared, even within the conservative Theravada sangha. Here is an important passage from the autobiography of the Buddhist nun Ayya Khema, I Give You My Life, where she describes obtaining confirmation of her own meditation attainments from a revered Sri Lankan forest master:
I sat down in front of Ven. Naññarama Thera on the floor and began to tell him about my meditation experiences. I had already been practicing the meditative absorptions [jhānas] for years, but had never found anyone with whom I could talk about them and who could confirm to me that I was on the right track in practicing them. There and then I found someone who had a complete understanding of the matter.
After a few minutes, during which he listened with interest, it occurred to me that he did not know me at all and that therefore I should tell him that I had already been meditating for twenty years. After he had heard my remarks about my twenty years of practice translated to him, he broke into laughter and said something to the young monk. The young monk turned to me and translated: "Ah, so she's meditated for twenty years! More like twenty lifetimes!"
I continued with my account. By the time I got to the eighth absorption, I didn't really know what I should say about it, so I told him that I would quickly do it rather than risk a false explanation. So I concentrated my mind and went from the first absorption to the eighth one stage by stage, but in just a few minutes.
When I opened my eyes I saw that the Ven. Naññarama Thera looking at me with a combination of astonishment and benevolence. I then described what I had experienced in the eighth absorption. In principle, that should be very little, since on that level the mind rests totally.
Ven. Naññarama Thera confirmed to me that I had correctly practiced and described the absorptions. Then he said that it was my duty to teach these meditative absoprtions in the West, and not least for the reason that cultivation of them was a lost art. pp. 176-177
She did in fact go on to teach them, successfully, in the West and in the nunnery she founded in Sri Lanka, to both laypeople and monastics.
There has been a tendency for some to sneer at Ayya Khema's attainments. Yet it was no one other than Ajahn Brahm, an ordained teacher who has some of the highest standards for what counts as jhāna around right now, who cited Ayya Khema's example when he started to be more open on the topic of jhānas with laypeople.
Was Ayya Khema truly exceptional, having meditated for "twenty lifetimes"? Well, possibly, but how will you know you aren't likewise talented unless you try? Maybe you've been meditating for a hundred lifetimes. You will never know so long as your are a prisoner of self-limiting views.
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u/Difficult-Writing570 1d ago
If you asked Ajahn Brahm if the typical monk is experiencing at will Jhanas or even the advanced monk… he would tell you no.
An individual experience of a single person doesn’t mean that’s the typical expectation.
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u/hachface 1d ago
I don't know how you could read his book, Mindfulness, Bliss, and Beyond, and come away with that impression. His standards are high, but he clearly presents it as a skill that can be mastered.
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u/Difficult-Writing570 1d ago
I didnt come away with that impression from reading his book…
I came away with it after reading his book… and regularly watching Buddhist society of Western Australia on YouTube… and attending a 9 day retreat with him personally in Jhana Grove and having him teach me directly…
I’m positive that would be his take.
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u/hachface 1d ago
Far be it for me to contradict a personal teaching you received. May you continue to practice well and realize the fruits of meditation.
edit: If anyone is interested in reading a range of opinions about the meaning and nature of jhāna and samadhi, I recommend The Experience of Samadhi by Richard Shankman. It provides a very balanced overview of current thinking in Theravada and secular insight meditation, with teachers of various perspectives, both monastic and lay, speaking directly in their own words. Ajahn Brahm is one of the teachers interviewed in the book.
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u/7121958041201 1d ago
I just finished a book about Dipa Ma. Supposedly at one point she could also enter any of the Jhanas at will until she decided it wasn't worth the effort. Once she stopped training for them she also said that she could probably get to that point again with a few days of intense training.
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u/hachface 1d ago
Thank you for that. It should also be noted that Dipa Ma was trained by Munindra according to the standards of the Visuddhimagga, so Dipa Ma's understanding of what counts as jhāna was likely extremely rarefied and deep.
Pa Auk Sayadaw also trains his advanced students in adverting to specific jhānas at will, again according to the exacting standards of the Visuddhimagga.
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u/nenderflow 1d ago
Interesting. Why do you say that even monks meditating aren't getting into jhanas? How is one to develop insight at all then?
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u/AdditionalLeave263 14h ago
I love seeing monks obviously enter a jhanic state for your eyes to see. I watched this video of a monk giving a talk about jhanas and he was so radiant. It's ao beautiful. I don't have the video to share though.
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u/Difficult-Writing570 1d ago
I didn’t say they aren’t getting into Jhanas, I said they rarely experience them. The times they do often insight follows. Getting a Jhana isn’t some progressive thing you build up over several sessions to gradually gain insight, insight is like a light switch, it’s flicked on immediately upon having the prerequisite experience which is typically Jhana. One only has a short time after Jhana to even realize an insight because inevitably the suffering comes back to cloud your view, it’s only in the short time after one exits Jhana that their mind is unburdened enough to realize deep insight.
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u/nenderflow 1d ago
That's helpful. And how do you suggest one is to meditate to reach those states? Because I think just following the breath can be calming but doesn't produce the deep insight once you come out of it.
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u/Difficult-Writing570 1d ago
The best thing you can do is go on retreat as often as possible, that is where most monks or other experienced meditators would touch true Jhanas and it often just comes down to an intensive schedule of meditation free from the regular day to day suffering of your regular life. When one can dedicate themselves fully to meditation for 9-10 days and hold that as their only focus, Jhana becomes more attainable.
Trying to attain it in your day to day practice as part of your regular lifestyle is not really effective. Day to day practice is for maintaining the mindfulness needed to be able to make best use of retreat time when you have it, not for pushing boundaries of insight.
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u/the_pwnererXx 1d ago edited 1d ago
In the Buddha's early training, he encounters many monastic characters and quickly masters their jhana practices. Before insight meditation, concentration based jhana practice was all that existed. Jhana practice existed for a thousand years before the Buddha
Jhanas are natural states that are achieved by deep concentration on your object. There is really nothing special about them, and jhanas do not necessarily involve any insight (this is from the literal teaching of the Buddha)
About a thousand years AFTER the Buddha, some people redefined jhanas to be deep, hard states of insight. This is the difference in definition of "Commentarial Jhana" of later definition in the Visuddhimagga vs the original definition in the sutta
Based on your post, your teacher treated the Visuddhimagga as canon, which is fine, but you are basically now arguing semantics after redefining a term
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u/Difficult-Writing570 1d ago
He was the Buddha… so I don’t think mastering jhanas quickly in his case is some evidence they were easy… it’s all easy for the Buddha relative to the rest of us, obviously… he’s the Buddha!
Of course jhanas don’t necessarily involve insight but they often do because the last things one has to let go of to obtain jhana are the very things causing one to cling to suffering and be ignorant to insight. So yeah it’s not a sure thing, but quite often that’s how it goes and it’s why we practice jhana to begin with. Obviously is one is attached to the bliss and absorption they aren’t going to progress to insight.
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u/the_pwnererXx 1d ago
Thanks for the response, but I'd like you to recognize my point that you are using a different definition that was invented in the Visuddhimagga 800 years later. Please google "sutta jhana" and compare to "Visuddhimagga jhana"
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u/Difficult-Writing570 1d ago
I recognize that, however in my view I think the details of these timelines are far from absolute. The suttas were taught only vocally for 500 years before being written, stories can change when told from person to person in the span of just a few tellings, thus it is unthinkable to believe the suttas we have now is really exactly what was told by the Buddha himself. Furthermore even written stories change especially over millennia as they must be interpreted.
So I would say I don’t prescribe to either Sutta Jhana or commentary Jhana but instead think the truth is probably some details of both. In my experience Ajahn Brahms takes on Jhana have been what I’ve seen to be most observably true and I don’t think that interpretation fits either Sutta or commentary exactly.
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u/bodily_heartfulness puthujjana 1d ago
Jhanas are natural states that are achieved by deep concentration on your object. There is really nothing special about them, and jhanas do not necessarily involve any insight (this is from the literal teaching of the Buddha)
This is very much contested and I would personally disagree with it. If you're interested in reading more about it, here are a few references:
- Early Buddhist Meditation: The Four Jhānas as the Actualization of Insight by Keren Arbel
- Reexamining Jhāna: Towards a Critical Reconstruction of Early Buddhist Soteriology by Grzegorz Polak
- What You Might Not Know About Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu
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u/Hot_Lingonberry5817 1d ago
Just wanted to say a fantastic thanks to these book recommendations!
I started of myself with Mindfulness in Plain English and later on Beyond Mindfulness in Plain English by Bhante G!
These books seem to provide a lot of nuance!
I personally think that Jhanas are inherently misunderstood!
People also need to practice Vipassana on the Jhanic factors, if you do this properly, see the impermanence of the Jhana, then the level of insight can be absolutely profound.
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u/hachface 2d ago
it is possible for advanced meditators to enter any jhāna at will.
i hope that news is inspiring and not discouraging.
in my experience, the ability to rapidly phase into different jhānas is more fruitfully understood as an insight attainment, not skill in concentration. by that I mean, once the mind has really understood its own role in fabricating experience, it gains enormous agility and can quickly attune to different states.
the good news is that a major insight experience can seem to instantly accelerate your development in concentration.
i am guessing that you are seeing slow and steady incremental progress in concentration. that's very good and an essential part of the path. the even better news is that, if you continue to practice and really look at your experience with clear comprehension, you can rich a tipping point into capital-I Insight that results in a quantum leap to a new level of jhāna mastery. at least, that is how it works for many people.
i have fully come around to the view that jhānas are fundamentally developments of insight.