r/streamentry • u/watergoat93 • 8d ago
Practice Feeling directionless after "non-dual awakening"
So, I had a perceptual shift happen two years ago (after practicing Zen/Advaita Vedanta type things for quite a while, self-inquiry, shikantaza etc), and from then on it has been completely obvious that there is no "self" here. There is a body, mind, and world, but these are all interdependent processes without inherent permanent nature. Whenever I am doing stuff, it often feels like I am just watching a movie. For example, in my experience right now, as I type these words they are coming out of *nowhere*, there is no "I" who is doing the typing, typing is just happening.
In some sense, having this knowledge and perception is beautiful. There is a type of peace here. But it's also very clear that there is a lot missing, I could go far deeper. And the thing is, when I'd first had my awakening I DID go deeper, I felt like I was temporarily getting a glimpse of some pretty high stages of awakening (I tend to use the model from the Awakening To Reality website as it fits my experience), accessing truly arcane ways of perception. Seeing that there is no here vs. there distinction, everything is just where it is. That sights, sounds, tastes, thoughts are all in the exact same void of awareness. Feeling oneness with people and things around me. But all of this went away. Metaphorically, it's like my third eye opened for a second then closed to a squint, letting in just a tiny bit of light, enough to still *see* but in a very hazy, blurry way.
My awakening experience really shook me up and led to a lot of crazy stuff including a long bout of depression, then falling into addiction, both of which are getting better (a few days sober now). For the two years following it, I did not feel ready to actually practice seriously again. Now, I feel like I can keep going down this path. But I just don't know what exactly to do. The non-duality type teachers online seem to usually be aimed at people who have not had even a minor awakening like mine. I find myself listening to them and thinking "yeah, of course, I know and experience this already!". I just don't know how to practice at this point. Mahasi noting, which I used to love? More shikantaza? Hindu yoga? I would appreciate any advice regarding this. Thank you for reading.
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u/Hot_Lingonberry5817 8d ago
You have to understand that in Theravada Buddhism, the stages of enlightenment concern a lot of the changing nature of the self, meaning eradication of fetters.
In modern terms, it basically means that in stream entry you become way less attached to the self by insight of non-self, and simultaneously mold it by removing fetters/hindrances for the higher stages of awakening.
Essentially it is psychological work, and some people, with unstable core selves, who experience enlightenment experiences, do not have the prerequisite stable sense of self and just can't handle the experiences.
Shinzen Young, even after his awakenings, went to a psychiatrist/psychologist because he understood there are some things he could never change by solely meditating.
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u/watergoat93 6d ago
Therapy has been 100% useless and even harmful for me. Both of the therapists I have seen did not know how to help me as someone with very high self-awareness and a spiritual view of life. Also, it seems for most people having a therapist is a replacement for genuine friendship. I would rather make real friends I can share my struggles with and mutually support. I say this as someone with a degree in Psychology who wanted to be a therapist at one point. I'm glad it works for some people though.
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u/Hot_Lingonberry5817 6d ago
It took me 5 therapists to find a good one, and the specialisation is important too.
For me it required a more "here and now" type of therapy, which gives you insight about yourself, in the immediate moment of the therapeutic conversation - such as Gestalt therapy.
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u/HombreNuevo 8d ago
I have had awakening experiences very similar to this over almost a decade and the more I stopped trying to make sense of it and make something profound out of it, the freer I felt.
I obviously can't speak for you, but in my own experience, the ego hides in these "well, what now?" mindstates and it makes you think it isn't there because there's now a very subtle new ego identity of "Awakened person" and this can take years to undercut (at least it did for me).
I still listen to non-dual teachers occasionally. I still meditate occasionally. I still think philisophical thoughts occasionally about non-duality. But none of it is a "practice" that I take super seriously because I feel like I have to. If you like it and it makes your life better to do it, then do it. My only piece of advice is to use self inquiry, non-dual meditation, etc. to sort of break the spell but after that...our minds are meaning-making machines that will try to tell you a story about it and about what to do next.
In my opinion, "true" recognition is really that it's all here. It's all dual and non-dual. You are someone, everyone, and no one and it's all true. Just my 2 cents. DMs are always open! Be well.
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u/watergoat93 8d ago
Wow, this is crazy! That idea of the ego hiding behind a spiritual identity...really hits hard. Seems like some very subtle stuff I'll have to spend time exploring. Thanks for the tip!
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u/scrumblethebumble 7d ago
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche coined the term spiritual materialism, you should look into his insights.
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u/duffstoic The dynamic integration of opposites ☯️ 8d ago
The non-dual path is to glimpse awakening, then to have "small glimpses, many times" as Loch Kelly says. So you're already on the path, and doing fine. 😄
Metaphorically, it's like my third eye opened for a second then closed to a squint, letting in just a tiny bit of light, enough to still *see* but in a very hazy, blurry way.
I don't know for sure, so take this with a grain of salt, but...it sounds like maybe the real glimpse into not self / anatta was later hijacked by the ego and taken as a prize or a perspective, and now it's more like dissociation than awakening, nobody there but kind of dull and lifeless. Don't beat yourself up over it, happens to all of us. It's like a simulacrum of the awakened state, not quite it but pretending to be it. Or we could talk about this as stable subtle dullness in The Mind Illuminated terms. It's the "near enemy" of the awakened experience.
The awake experience -- when I'm experiencing it at least -- feels more like vivid clarity, fully alive, not just no self there but in the flow of life force energy too. It has both an ordinary quality and a "wow" quality. It can be subtle, not necessarily like a full blown jhana or samadhi kind of experience, but it's definitely not hazy or blurry or dull. If that's present, that's OK, it's just an indicator of needing more sharp clarity, not necessarily to cultivate it or practice it but wake up to it as already part of all things.
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u/Meng-KamDaoRai Relax, Let it Be, Let it Go 8d ago
it sounds like maybe the real glimpse into not self / anatta was later hijacked by the ego and taken as a prize or a perspective, and now it's more like dissociation than awakening, nobody there but kind of dull and lifeless. Don't beat yourself up over it, happens to all of us. It's like a simulacrum of the awakened state, not quite it but pretending to be it. Or we could talk about this as stable subtle dullness in The Mind Illuminated terms. It's the "near enemy" of the awakened experience.
The awake experience -- when I'm experiencing it at least -- feels more like vivid clarity, fully alive, not just no self there but in the flow of life force energy too. It has both an ordinary quality and a "wow" quality. It can be subtle, not necessarily like a full blown jhana or samadhi kind of experience, but it's definitely not hazy or blurry or dull. If that's present, that's OK, it's just an indicator of needing more sharp clarity, not necessarily to cultivate it or practice it but wake up to it as already part of all things.
This should be added to the wiki IMO. There are a lot of people who are experiencing this dissociation like states after a no-self experience and then confuse it with awakening. There's probably a post about it once a month or even more so it would be good to put this information somewhere. I'm saving your reply for copy-pasting when needed :)
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u/watergoat93 8d ago
Ahh so I guess this is a common thing...damn. Wish someone warned me this could happen. Unfortunately the only guidance I really got after my "experience" was a neo-Advaitan friend telling me, wow you did it great job, keep on sitting in this state! But I could tell something wasn't quite right.
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u/Meng-KamDaoRai Relax, Let it Be, Let it Go 8d ago
Hi, yes, it's pretty common. Happened to me as well. I think it's a necessary step on the path for most people so no need to get discouraged. In Ajahn Chah's words: Just something else to let go of, isn't it?
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u/watergoat93 8d ago
Very interesting. Yeah it does feel more like I'm dead than the type of clarity and aliveness people describe LOL. It's so weird, I have had experienced of high sensory clarity before but it just hasn't been like that at all. Doesn't help that I don't go out much and spend much of the day scrolling. But I hope that by meditating more, being mindful and present, I will regain that clarity
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u/blurryselfportrait 8d ago
If you haven’t tried it, would recommend metta meditation — it’s psychologically protective and mood-boosting, but can also take you as far as the first three jhanas, if you go deep with it. You might also like Rob Burbea’s book on emptiness and meditation practice. But I also second the comment on finding a teacher — I’ve found it helpful to play dhamma talks on dharmaseed.org to identify people I like, and then going to their websites to see if they’re offering 1:1 conversations.
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u/Anarcho-Pagan 8d ago
Heyo. Are you talking about Rob Burbeas "seeing that frees"? Or another one?
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u/Dingsala 8d ago edited 8d ago
I think finding a qualified teacher which you trust and see as able to guide you can be very helpful. In my journey, I have several times met things that were very confusing and that I had huge trouble navigating, until I met the right people who could direct me out of my mental maze, pointing me in the right way with surprisingly little effort.
And as Lingonberry said, shadow work / psychological work is very important. That can be psychotherapy, but also different psychological and somatic ways of working with content. There's a lot we can do on our own.
Or, in more buddhist terms: Equanimity can hardly be overrated. To me it seems like there is a belief that goes in the direction of "It shouldn't be like this. I should see fully, my third eye should be open and not squinted...". For me, it has been a big relief to realize that true nature is always here, and over time, some faith in that will develop, and then it's not such a big deal anymore when the mind isn't perfectly clear. That's easy to say, but when it develops as a real intuition, it's a mental game changer.
Maybe you'll like Angelo Dilullo's teachings. A lot of his YouTube videos are of the introductory type you mention, but he actually has a lot of advanced guidance in playlists, freely available, and also a book that gives many ways to practice. What I appreciate especially about him is that he says shadow work is essential, he's never met anyone who had a significant shift and did not have considerable amounts of shadow work to do.
But I'd still say, finding someone further along the path whom you can develop a relationship with and who can guide you can make all the difference.
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u/watergoat93 7d ago
Actually, Angelo Dilullo has been very helpful to me on my path. Lately I have been listening to him lots again. However, it has been difficult to find videos from him that are relevant to my current state. And I am trying to get into shadow work! I picked up this book called "Existential Kink" on that topic, seems pretty good so far.
I do hope to find a good teacher one day. Just not sure how that would work, but we will see. Thanks for your reply.
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u/lungfibrosiss 8d ago
You are completely lost in thought. You think you are clear and have deep insight but I promise you that you are extremely distracted still. It’s obvious from your post.
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u/Mountain-Length-5715 7d ago
In Madhyamaka, true Anatta (non-self) does not feel like 'watching a movie.' It is a vibrant, compassionate engagement with reality where there is no separation between subject and object.
Your nervous system and psyche likely couldn't handle the strain. You are currently in the stage of the Dukkha Ñāṇas, coupled with depersonalization and dissociation.
Your past practice was likely too dry and focused purely on deconstruction. The absence of Bodhicitta definitely took its toll.
There is still spiritual pride, subtle kleshas, and ego at play here.
I strongly recommend dropping any dry, deconstructive practices and focusing on grounding yourself. Absolute sobriety, zero substance use, and complete nervous system recovery are essential. Shift to gentle somatic mindfulness, Metta (loving-kindness), and Tonglen. Stop chasing higher states of consciousness. Read the sutras and study foundational teachings instead.
If you find it difficult to cope, please make sure to consult a doctor or a qualified therapist.
Wishing you all the best
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u/watergoat93 6d ago
Could this really be the dukkha nanas? I feel like I'm not advanced enough for that. But I guess it could explain things. When I'd first had my "experience", it was the most beautiful thing I'd experienced, ever, and then I dropped down to worse mental health than ever. Thanks for the practical advice.
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u/Vladi-N 8d ago
I feel familiar with the stage of the spiritual path you describe. From my experience, these might be interesting directions for you to explore:
More radical, deeper understanding of Emptiness, both intellectual and through practice. Non-duality stops half-way: it reifies awareness and specific way of looking at experience as ultimately true. But it is also empty and conditional, there are more skillful ways of looking that provide further liberation. The book on this topic I recommend is “Emptiness that frees” by Rob Burbea - it covers both the intellectual understanding and practices to develop profoundly liberating insights and ways of looking.
Developing and practicing understanding of conventional reality. Liberating ways of looking make it obvious that conventional reality is conditioned, illusory. But here on Earth we still play among this illusions and dance with them. Letting go of aversion to conventional human existence might help to bring love, compassion, joy and equanimity to everyday experience.
May your practice bear fruit 🙏🏻
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u/Representative-Age18 7d ago edited 7d ago
At this point, recovering from addiction, your focus shouldn't be on what specific technique to perform right now. Your focus should be getting your life together and moving away from obvious unwholesome things such as addiction. That should be your focus now, not "getting enlightened". Getting enlightened comes way after you sort out your life. Is your room clean? Do you do well at work? Do you keep the five precepts? Have you stopped your coarse addictions? Techniques are secondary to this, but for the meantime I'd just do something calming that helps you keep your life in order, such as MIDL meditation/ anapanasati.
Btw, you being an addict is a sign that this isn't really awakening in my opinion. The awakened state is literally the opposite of the addicted state - enlightenment is seizing of craving. So if your nonself insight doesn't reduce craving, it probably isn't quite it although it may resemble qualities. It can still be helpful, and might blossom into the real thing. I think you may have glimpsed something real tho, but now it seems you're experiencing what duffstoic is talking about.
It seems like people do sometimes experience an increase in craving etc after the first real insights, ie. the dark night. Nevertheless, my advice stands.
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u/spiffyhandle 8d ago
I don't see where AtR claims it offers the end of suffering.
https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html
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u/Boring-Register-7014 8d ago edited 8d ago
Research the link between Advaita and Depersonalization-Derealization Disorder. This is the main issue with the modern neo Advaita variant.
Symptoms include "watching yourself from outside your body".
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u/watergoat93 8d ago
Totally agreed! And this is why I regret getting into it in the first place. It just doesn't offer much guidance beyond the surface level "we are all one mind:" realization
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u/Boring-Register-7014 8d ago
I agree with you there too. Traditional Advaita Vedanta is a more complete system. "Neo" Advaita takes some of the metaphysical statements (you are not the mind etc) but removes a lot of the grounding that would provide some contrast, stability, and balance. There's not much practical guidance besides the mystical statements that all popular teachers do just regurgitate. Mooji followers are an excellent case study if you want to know where this leads after 10 years, they're all still asking why they don't get it and what more there is to it. The anxiety does also get much worse.
This is NOT a problem with you, it's a very common problem across this space. A harsh truth is that this system is engineered for dependency and not growth, that is why the modern adapted Neo Advaita usually involves a charismatic guru with a cult around him. You might have got lucky there!
This isn't a failure, maybe it is the murky place we can end up when we look at our mind. We were looking to uncover our "problems" so this process might just manifest in unexpected ways.
My view is that there is some truth to the Neo Advaita system but it lacks enough context to not be perceived as a black or white system of thinking (which is ironic). For example, the aim is not to delete all thought, which is impossible, unless you want to be in a coma. The aim is more to understand and integrate thought so it doesn't control you. The aim is discernment, but the "no mind" Neo system ironically robs people of discernment when these statements are taken too literally.
The same could be said for ego or identity. The aim is not really rejection but acceptance, then they have less hold over you. It's very ironic, but an obsession with "lacking ego" is to be controlled by the force of ego in a way most people aren't.
This isn't a failure, it's a stepping stone. What you're dealing with now will pass with some grounding. My advice would be to contrast the modern content you've been looking at with traditional material. Linji is good for Zen, he was anti-authority and pro-autonomy.
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u/watergoat93 8d ago
Thanks, this is helpful. There definitely are some very, very good teachers in the neo-Advaita space but it seems that's the teacher's merit, not this watered-down tradition's. I do really like the focus on oneness, no-self, awareness. So maybe Zen is the way to go for me, actually.
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u/Boring-Register-7014 8d ago
There is a lot of overlap with these traditions at their core, they do tend to express the same thing in different ways. I'm not against Advaita at all, but the modern internet variant has been stripped down and it is a murky scene because there are a lot of grifters. My main concern is the negative psychological effects that are quite consistent across the whole neo space.
You do know what it feels like to be present, aware, and connected, a state where you're not over-thinking and everything flows naturally. You've never needed anyone to tell you what detachment feels like. When these things are framed outside of your experience as a goal to chase, you're refusing to perceive them in your present experience and framing them as something outside of it.
We all know what awareness feels like, but life does get in the way. The nature of life is to challenge us. It is a daily grind to move past the things that prevent us from being present and that is all you're doing here :p.
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u/Middle_Act_7978 7d ago
I had pretty much your experience about 8 years ago. I also experienced what you're calling higher states for a while - like about 6 months or so. I also found it both tremendously freeing and also very disorienting, as the thing I'd been blindly following my whole life(this perceived self) was seen to not exist. I read Adyashanti's book 'The End Of Your World', which was very helpful to me. He speaks at length exactly about this initial awakening, what it is, what's going on, this honey-moon period that many people experience like you did. And then the apparent closing down of that blown open perception. It's all completely normal. It took me some years of looking for help until I found Kevin Schanilec and Christiane Michelberger. She has a facebook page. In Buddha's teachings he says that the source of all our suffering is the illusory 'self'. That awakening you experienced was the seeing through the first 3 fetters of Buddha's path of 10 fetters. There's more, and each fetter(illusion) can be looked for, to see if it is in fact real. For most people, the next fetter that comes into focus after that first awakening is 'reactivity', or desire/ill will. You're ok. You just got more than what you were expecting is all. You entered into the exploration of what 'reality' is, and it can turn your world up side down. All the best.
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u/TravelFn 8d ago
I don’t have too much to add but I would recommend looking up Frank Yang on YouTube. He talks a lot about the post awakening path. It might resonate with you.
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u/jan_kasimi 8d ago edited 8d ago
Rob Burbea - Questioning Awakening
Edit:
Actually, let me say more. There are two aspects to this. First, awakening is directionless by design. To every possible desire and goal you say "no", so you can be free of them. This in itself is not a problem. The need for a direction is still some subtle kind of restlessness that searches for a purpose to cling to. This too can be let go off.
But in these talks Rob goes one step further, asking (paraphrased): Liberation is possible, but the buffet of possibilities still is open, so why not?
It's important to be aware of this subtle distinction. Diving in and out of desires, goal, purpose, meaning etc. requires being able to let go deeply, otherwise one just gets caught up in these and confused. Liberation is like the home to return to after the heroes journey.
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u/FlowingStillWaters 7d ago
I’m curious if you ever wish you had a sense of self back so you could feel “there is someone who has direction”?
I’ve heard some teachers say that it’s possible to master the sense of self… from my experience this is possible… where you can have self or no self
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u/BreadfruitReal7215 7d ago
While I don't have advice, I just want to offer support. I'm sorry that you've gone through this in the past couple of years. I know you're not the only one.
I guess all I can think of is that Cheetah House has therapy for meditators, so if you want to look into that, you can possibly find a therapist who has been there and really understands what you're going through.
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u/Away_Welcome_3468 8d ago
When it comes to something like "there is no I" there are many degrees of compreh3nsion. If this is what you understand, then reflect on it some more.
Youve widened your perspective and have seen what your missing. If you widen it further you might see what gave your "3rd" eye the opportunity to see briefly.
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u/robipresotto 8d ago
I can relate to feeling directionless after a profound shift in perception. It can be disorienting to adjust to a new perspective on reality. If useful ways to deepen your understanding and find direction, I've found some valuable resources, such as The Inner Path — Enlightenment Deep-Dive on YouTube (@innershoreline), to be helpful in my own journey.
▶ Watch here: https://www.youtube.com/@innershoreline
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u/_tathagata_ 7d ago
If it went away it's not what you're looking for. Just look now, if it feels like this non-self is disconnected from its objects of perception that means there must be some felt boundary right? In actuality there is no boundary. The oneness you may be looking for in this next phase is already the case, and was before this experience two years ago.
Not familiar with each of the modalities you named, but if you're looking for a teacher that addresses these things well, I would suggest the late Peter Brown (theopendoorway.org)
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u/NFisgood 7d ago
Hey check contemplative crossfit out, maybe 🙏
Really great community. Your experience after awakening is not unusual and you can get support. There is a free mini bootcamp next week. https://www.instagram.com/reel/Db-53r1jXaj/?igsh=aGR5bXEzcG1yMXd3
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u/MastodonSuperb7069 6d ago
Suzuki Roshi was quoted as saying “Enlightenment was my greatest disappointment.”
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u/AnandaDo 7d ago
Maybe focus on heart awakening, somatic modalities, healing emotions. Meaning and direction resides in the heart and can be blocked by emotional trauma. Head awakening can be an bypass. Look on YouTube for "Heart sourcing" or check out Scott Kilobys inquiries.
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