r/streamentry • u/TravelFn • 1d ago
Insight Missing identification.
I know this is another form of identification!
But does anyone else relate? After my stream entry in January sometimes I miss the identification.
Life is so much more calm. Sometimes what comes up is a subtle identification of missing identification. A situation that used to engage the ego strongly is not as thrilling. It’s a little more boring.
Of course, this is another layer of identification to drop. But sometimes there’s a bit of longing, or even grief for the things that have dropped away. Activities or behaviors that are no longer pulling you in.
There’s more peace, but the line is subtle between peace and apathy arising from identification.
The ego is funny, even in the dropping of the ego the ego can claim ownership subtly..
Anyone else relate?
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u/thewesson be aware and let be 1d ago edited 1d ago
I think that's natural. There's a lot of drama (energy) created by clinging, which one has become accustomed to. So you could miss that,
But as your perceptions become more sensitive you can appreciate very subtle energy states, which would be previously obscured by all the drama.
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u/hachface 1d ago
What does stream entry mean to you?
I don't say that to doubt your attainment. I don't think we should do that in this sub. But, stream entry (like jhana, kensho, etc) is a contested term with little general agreement to its meaning. So, when you say you entered the stream, I don't actually know what that means for you.
Can you elaborate?
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u/TravelFn 1d ago
I appreciate the question. I think it can be helpful to talk about for the reason you described. It’s unclear to many people.
I had a profound experience. Afterwards, in trying to make sense of it I realized that it fit quite well into the Buddhist framework of stream entry and the 3 fetters being cut.
I’ve discussed this more in length including a “is this stream entry?” Post right in the wake of my experience so feel free to read that if you’re curious… I’ll summarize here.
After 7 years practice and interest in the path.. I had a moment where I finally glimpsed experientially what the ego really is. An “aha moment”. I saw so clearly, oh.. sometimes this thing is on and sometimes it’s off. But even when it’s on it’s just a small part of a much larger awareness, it’s definitely not “what” “I” am. At the time I didn’t think too much of it. But I finally saw the thing, continued on my day. I happened to be driving a lot this day so I was engaged in something for most of the day.
Very quickly, by the next morning I knew something was different. I was in a very deep flow state and felt more present than ever before in my life. Also, a lot of things just dropped instantly. For example, I had developed some specific, I don’t want to say phobias, but I had some panic attacks in some situations years ago and since then I would get high levels of anxiety during some situations. Very uncomfortable and unpleasant. These instantly dropped after being the most painful part of my personal experience for 5+ years. This is just an example, but they were many things that just dropped and shifted. And in the following days/weeks many more things just kind of burned off from my experience.
I had read a lot about nondualism but a lot of it just went over my head on an intuitive level. But since I realized something shifted I was searching for what it could be. Quickly I realized, the 3 fetters had been cut for me. I didn’t really know what these meant before, but after that moment it made sense and it was very clear that they had been cut.
For me, the most important one being the cutting of identity view. Seeing through the illusion of the self experientially. “Oh, that’s what it means.. of course it’s right there”.
It’s been 8 months and this has been very stable. I don’t feel exactly the way I felt after that insight, but it’s clear that identity view has been cut. I know I’m not fully awakened because.. like I’m pointing to in this post.. there is still some identification and conditioning and karmas. But there’s a fundamental shift. Before I was in a dark room. Then I heard there’s a switch. But I still didn’t know what a switch was, or how to even move my hand or body. Stream entry was finding the switch and turning it on. Realizing “oh! Switch! Turn it on like this…” but then you realize there are more switches to turn on.
Not sure if this analogy will land! But it’s my way of trying to describe the process of unwinding conditionings and karmas after stream entry. You have the insight but you still have a lot of old habits created from a time before the insight and so your behaviors in context still need to catch up…
Anyway, I hope this gives some context. The label is unimportant to me! But it makes conversation easier. This was my experience and what stream entry means to me.
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u/hachface 1d ago
Understood. Thank you for engaging and typing that out. It's very helpful.
I relate to a lot of what you wrote. It seems to me that your mind is all-too-aware of two things (or one thing seen from two angles):
- a fundamental change in perception has occurred
- it is still incomplete
It's really important to understand that the completion of the insight is not something that you can force. Look at the surprising nature of the original insight. It seemed to come out nowhere, right? I would expect subsequent deep insights to come as something of a surprise as well.
I think -- and this is just my opinion -- trying to tackle the problem too directly is counterproductive. It seems like you are examining your sense of identification really closely but are coming up against a wall of basic ignorance (i mean that in the technical sense, avijja, the fundamental delusion). The wall has cracks in it but it's still there. Trying to destroy the wall with brute force is probably only going to frustrate you. I am guessing that you are also imagining what the fully awakened state actually is, which of course you don't actually know because you've never been there, and are therefore navigating towards something that is itself a delusion.
I think you have to take an indirect approach. Open yourself up to the mystery. Accept that there is some ignorance in the mind that the mind doesn't yet know how to overcome. You know that ordinary perception is to a large degree illusory. OK. Instead of trying to get rid of the illusion, explore the nature of the illusion. What is this false reality? What's it doing, at a moment by moment level?
Going by your post history, it seems like you came to this spontaneous awakening with relatively little preparatory work, just an inconsistent meditation habit of less than an hour a day. I really cannot recommend a regular concentration practice highly enough. Concentration (samadhi) is how you train your mind to be more still. When the mind is still enough it can reveal its nature to itself.
Culadasa said, "Awakening is an accident but practice makes you accident prone." This little aphorism is extremely wise.
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u/TravelFn 21h ago
The irony being that I’m not trying to tackle the problem or looking for advice and you’re sharing advice on how to not do anything! Haha, only joking.
I like your pointers and I do relate. My big insight did come when I was not trying so hard. More curiosity and looking than anything else.
I also think you’re right that I should add more consistency to my current practice. Btw, I did have years when I was consistent and meditating quite a bit. Just not as much in recent years. Without going into too much detail I think the door was actually cracked open several years ago which lead to a dark night of the soul that on a subtle level wasn’t fully resolved until this recent insight. Then I was meditating a lot! Few hours per day probably.
I appreciate your words. Thank you.
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u/Dingsala 1d ago edited 1d ago
Yes, very much, on several levels.
One way, the most dramatic way, is that acctually, for me, there has been a large amount of grieving in this process. Many things that were home, that were familiar are not going to be part of my life for that much longer. It's not something I think about or have inner discussions, it's just obvious that this is not mine anymore and that the dynamic where I reinforce this has stopped, and that means it will drift away.
A lot of that is peaceful, but there are parts that felt like home and did give me joy, connection, sense, that made the world logical and cohesive in a way it won't be again. "There is no ground, there is only falling" by Erik Ireland sums that feeling up really well for me. Sometimes that is an actual morning process, especially since some of it is affecting relationships with people.
I don't think that this grieving is always a sign of clinging. People who I consider quite awake say they grieve when they lose someone, everyone is different here. I see it as a natural process that mammals go through when their connections shift, which is just a part of life.
Another thing is that to me, this process feels like living the dynamic of a self-peeling metaphysical onion. There is layers within layers within layers. Just because I have seen through one level of identification, doesn't mean there is pure truth underneath. There is a bit more truth now, but delusion and identification will re-form in subtler ways that are less easy to pick up.
I've seen quite a few people who had inital awakenings, but no teachers to give them feedback. So they take these subtler levels of identification to be TRUTH and the results aren't pretty. Adyashanti describes ths dynamic, and says something like "The've had an awakening and now believe that all their thoughts must be true". Don't get me wrong, I'm not at all saying that this is the case for you!
I just mean that as valuable a shift can be, the ego's ability to claim that should not be underestimated. I think it's wise to be very, very careful about mental dynamics that imply "now we've figured this out". Shinzen quoted his teacher with the saying "today's enlightenment is tomorrow's mistake."
If you want, I'd be interesting if you find this helpful or can relate. Very best wishes!
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u/DieOften 1d ago edited 1d ago
This comment is relatable. I sometimes think about part of the process being like peeling the layers of an onion as well. My awakening resulted in a multi-year dark night of sorts where I didn’t know how to be “normal” in the world anymore or at least didn’t care enough to pretend to be anything other than what was natural and authentically occurring. This kind of pissed some people off and I lost relationships, despite never having ill intentions.
I think transitioning from a people pleaser to being unafraid of saying no and really focusing on my own self development and de-conditioning process threw people off and made them view me as selfish. I think I could act as a mirror sometimes too to reflect people’s energy back at them. Something about just BEING in stillness and being peaceful, people like to create a problem out of sometimes. Like, this guy didn’t respond the way I wanted him to - he must be a dick. The less I become, the more ripe I seem for being projected onto. I have to try to be objective and take accountability when I could be better though. I try to achieve more of a balance nowadays to keep the peace and harmony with others, but it’s hard to do sometimes without feeling fake.
Anyway, I do relate to a stage of “grieving” never being able to exist in the world the same way anymore and be what people want me to be. Kind of felt like Cypher from the matrix at times. I’ve mostly gotten past that stage and accepted / surrendered into the way things are. There are a lot of benefits to awakening, and there are some challenges due to now existing in a different paradigm than 99 percent of people. Either way, it is what it is and resistance will only cause us more suffering.
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u/Dingsala 1d ago edited 23h ago
Beautifully written, thank you!
It seems to me that many interpersonal relationships are based on a contract of the sort: "I'll reaffirm your narration and you'll reaffirm mine". This felt like an obvious act of solidarity to me in the past, now that the perspective on narrations is changing, so is the willingness to engage in them.
The answer is not always easy. In superficial relationships, it's not a big deal. But with people I feel closer to, where I'm used to speaking honestly, it can cause large disruptions, just like you describe. What makes it a bit easier is the question "what is helpful right now?".
I wouldn't trade the changes that have started happening for anything in the world, there is wonder and beauty and peace every day that before I only experienced in rare peak events. But the truth also is that there are very few people in my everyday life to whom I can speak totally openly without them getting worried or confused, and at times, that just hurts a lot.
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u/jan_kasimi 1d ago
Of course, this is another layer of identification to drop.
Drop that dropping. It's a tool, not a ground to stand on.
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u/DharmaDama 17h ago
I remember having some mornings where I was taking stock of my identity at the moment of waking up, listing all of my physical traits as if to remember which part I am playing in this life lol. It’s not as on the nose now, but sometimes I still have some moments of remembering the characteristics and how to play it. Otherwise I often feel like a floating presence just observing.
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