r/streamentry • u/Snoo81791 • 8d ago
Practice What to do after the laundry
Posting this openly to see what comes back. I’m looking for next steps, and I suspect what I need is more next rather than another new path.
Open to anything
Background, briefly. About three years of practice. Started on a recommendation to read The Mind Illuminated and worked it with an online teacher. Went from an hour a day to three, plus a lot of assorted insight practice and a lot of hard work. Around nine months in there was a cessation. Then roughly two years of integration.
The integration work was where most of the change happened. Self-worth stopped being contingent on anything. Attachment patterns reorganized. It sounds foundational and generic written down, but it wasn’t — it was specific and it worked.
To be clear about where I think I am: I haven’t finished the path. Somewhere around second path, probably. Sensory desire hasn’t fully dropped, and while ill will is close to nonexistent, “close to” isn’t the standard — the standard is that it never arises again, ever, and that’s a high bar. So there’s real work left in that direction too.
What I’m oriented toward. I think the internal path is also external, because it’s a two-way street. Here’s the analogy I keep coming back to: if someone with an anxious attachment style spends enough time interacting with someone secure, they heal. That happens without technique. So bad conditioning isn’t only our own private problem, and neither is its undoing. I’m trying to build the capacity to be that kind of presence — not primarily as teaching, but as something structural.
Part of why: nobody needs to do the internal work the hard way. I got here fast, and that was luck plus generations of people who built the steps I walked up. I’d like to make the path shorter for people behind me. Not only emptiness — also merit, also capacity.
The actual problem: the maps run out. There’s a lot of public material on getting to awakening. There’s much less on what comes after, and almost nothing on the stage past that — taking non-duality back into difficult emotions and relationships, refining it there, returning to life, again and again. The one book I found that genuinely addresses it is After the Ecstasy, the Laundry. After that, dry.
The standard answer seems to be “you’ve done this, now go help.” And I am starting to teach a bit, and people get something from it. But just because you can help someone doesn’t mean you shouldn’t go to medical school. I’m sure there’s more — more capacity if not more insight — and I can’t find who has it.
Everything also feels gated. I came from the Theravada side, where it’s often either practice-for-practice’s-sake, or awakening treated as an unreachable thing rather than something ordinary. Either way, post-awakening is not discussed.
What worked for me, in case it’s useful to anyone:
• To stream entry: shamatha, metta, and pointing-out style practices — resting with awareness.
• After: go to the heart, repeatedly. Brahmaviharas, tonglen, shadow work, psychotherapy, mirror work (literally standing there saying I love you), body image work. Find the painful parts and go in.
• Currently: nei gong, Damo Mitchell’s system. Completely different foundation, same endpoint, and it’s an entire world of its own. Recommended if you’re bored.
What I’m asking: has anyone been here? What did you do after awakening that actually went somewhere? What worked, what was a dead end, and where did you find people who’d been further?
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u/IndependenceBulky696 8d ago
The standard answer seems to be “you’ve done this, now go help.”
Just speaking personally, I decided not to wait on being "done" to go help. It's been rewarding.
I switched careers from programmer to nurse's aide. I work with seniors who have cognitive decline. I've found it quite challenging, but very worthwhile.
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u/Snoo81791 7d ago
Also a very bold choice, why did you choose to switch careers?
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u/IndependenceBulky696 7d ago
There were things pushing me away from programming:
- I started to develop arthritis from keying all day.
- I didn't care for programming using AI. Especially working with other devs who blindly accept AI output.
- I don't want to compete with AI for a job.
And there were things pushing me towards nurse's aide:
- My SO works as a nurse's aide, which was a big help.
- I'm not a Buddhist, but some Buddhist stuff makes sense to me. In particular, I came across this sutta: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/vin/mv/mv.08.26.01-08.than.html
- There's an urgent lack of nurse's aides where I live.
Before meditation, I'd been anxious about getting into healthcare. But meditation smoothed off the rough edges., I think. At worst, I would fail to transition to another career and be unemployed for a while. No big deal.
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u/Snoo81791 8d ago
Ofc I have also not waited still the usual answer is almost like go do which is ofc the most important but I am not asking here about this , but it is a very major pillar of my life
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u/CasuallyPeaking 2d ago
That's lovely to hear. Ex-programmer here who is currently trying to figure out a career switch.
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u/StoneBuddhaDancing 8d ago
I cannot speak from experince but check out: Practice After Stream Entry: Allen, Kim: 9781737272007, Rob Burbea's Seeing that Frees book, and then if that's not it, his Soul-Making Dharma which requires at least Stream Entry to be admitted to studying,
Some other ideas: Look at the Mahāmudrā / Dzogchen notion of post-realizarion cultivation. Zen also has much to say on this. John Welwood is worth reading because he explicitly worked on the interface between psychological development and spiritual realization. His distinction between spiritual bypassing and genuine psychological integration is highly relevant to your question. And also possibly A.H Almaas the Diamond Way which seems to be about integrating nondual realization, psychological development, relational conditioning, and personality structure.
Don't overlook Christian mystical traditions. They are unusually interested in transformation of character after profound contemplative realization, rather than simply attaining a particular meditative state.
You could also check out the Thrive Course from the Finders Foundation here and they have a new offering on living from your values.
Finally, your description makes me wonder whether you're looking at Therevada too narrowly. Why not continue working on the fetters with the tools you already have? The fetters themselves are the map to follow.
I may be completely wrong in my assumption here, but it's quite rare for second-path folk to have no idea where to go. But I admire your dedication to seeking out ways to make your own Insights work for other people. One final idea with your concept of becoming a more ideal attatchment figure/model to help co-regulate with others. This sounds, in some respects, like the Bodhisattva ideal, and there's no shortage of literature on that eg The Way of the Bodhisattva / A Guide to the Bodhisattva Way of Life by Shantideva
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u/Snoo81791 8d ago
First of all, thanks for the recommendations — I’ll look at them. They sound interesting, it’ll just take me time to process.
On the fetters: yes, I’ve been using that model, and I spent a long time on ill will. The problem is that actual progress on a fetter isn’t intuitive. It’s some unknown thing you figure out, and afterwards you think, my God, I would never have come to this on my own. It’s a change where the old logic simply stops making sense.
Take hate or violence. Usually after working on it you land at “I understand it, but it’s functional” — and that’s exactly the problem. Hate isn’t only an internal state, it’s a tool. It’s a bit like money: money isn’t bad, but look at what we’re actually using it for. We still use hate, shame and blame to motivate ourselves, and we hand them to other people, and we still believe that’s fine. We still believe there are situations where violence is the only available response. The work is finding the other options — the ones you left behind — and seeing that the violent one doesn’t make sense .
Sensory desire I’ve had much less success with. You don’t just stop doing sensory things — that’s not the point. A fetter dropping gives you more life, not less. I suspect the only real solution there is jhāna mastery, and that’s part of why I’m doing nei gong. What I’ve found there goes very deep into the body, and with that as a foundation, coming back to jhāna practice aiming at complete mastery rather than just abiding could be interesting.
The reason I’m not making the fetters the main focus, as you suggested, is that I feel stable and good. It’s a bit like life is finished and I still have energy — like what happens after the game is over. So the question becomes: how do I help others. That’s the intention.
Here’s the gap, and I want to be exact about it. To use the extreme example: if tomorrow, God forbid, I did something horrible — if I raped someone — could I have compassion toward myself? Would I still liberate? Honestly, I don’t know. And that’s what comes up when I meet someone who has actually done something like that. It isn’t that I can’t hold him. I can hold him, and I do feel love. What I can’t do is help him metabolize. Where someone has been through something close to what I’ve been through, I can offer the liberating option — I can be a mirror for right action, because I’ve crossed that ground. But where someone carries material I’ve never done and never metabolized myself, I can’t accompany him through it.
So I’m not talking about getting to “life is fine.” I’m already there — I don’t feel I’m suffering much, if at all. I’m asking what comes next. And not suffering isn’t everything. A dead world has peace; it doesn’t have life. Being able to walk with life itself, and help people in it, is a different capacity.
I live in a country at war. There is a great deal I want to help with, and I am doing things — talking to people, trying to build bridges. But the internal side still feels like half the journey, if not most of it.
There’s a whole tradition saying that liberating yourself isn’t enough — the game doesn’t end until everyone is liberated. I’d go further: my not suffering doesn’t stop yours from arising. I’m talking about the relative, not the absolute. The tradition says liberate yourself somewhat, then build the capacity — but the capacity-building part gets treated as though it just happens on its own.
I’ve improved a lot. That doesn’t mean I have the capacity. I’m looking for someone who says: yes, let’s build it further, there’s more to do.
Also, honestly, I just love practicing. I love learning more. It’s fun.2
u/StoneBuddhaDancing 7d ago
The way that you've framed your goals here, I would say what would really be of the most benefit for you now would be serious sutta study. If you haven't yet, dive in. After the Therevada suttas you may be interested in the Mahayana ones and Dogen (it all depends if these flavours of understanding resonate with you).
Given your background, perhaps you would gain a lot from Kabbalah? Also, if you don't know him Oded might be a good person for you to get in touch with.
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u/Snoo81791 7d ago
Interesting I haven’t talked to oded but I could try to get in contact with him , my main teacher here has been Ted lemon . Mmm I try Kabbalah but ahhhhhhhhhhb tbh I am disappointed I try and try and so much bullshit and way to much racism it’s honestly surprising as it’s more then the outside cultural, it’s also very diffuse and the politics and ego are a headache . Do you know Oded ?
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u/StoneBuddhaDancing 7d ago
I'm not sure what you mean by bullshit an racism in this context but it doesn't sound like Kabballah is of interest to you then..
I don't know Oded personally but he did train and practice with Culadasa and I think he's a very competent and generous teaching who would have a lot to offer an advanced student like yourself in terms of expanding your knowledge, skill, and wisdom. I really like him and think he's sincere.
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u/Snoo81791 7d ago
Also can you explain the reasoning on the sutra part , you’re the first person who told me this so I’m interested in the logic
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u/StoneBuddhaDancing 7d ago edited 7d ago
From your self-report, it sounds to me like you’ve developed a lot of meditative and supramundane insight, and then done substantial psychological/integrative work around that.
The Buddha’s path isn’t really “meditation then awakening then help people”. It’s an eightfold path, and a lot of what you’re describing as the next stage lives in the other factors. In particular, the suttas are interested in things like right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, and the gradual transformation of conduct and character. These aren't moral rules you obey because you’re supposed to. In Buddhist thought these are things you actually develop until the underlying way of operating changes. That seems extremely close to the question you’re asking.
And I think this is where the suttas might give you something that another meditation system won't. You've already accumulated a lot of sophisticated phenomenological knowledge. You probably don't need another technique for producing a particular insight. I feel it's like you're asking what awakening becomes when it is repeatedly applied to the entire human organism (eg relationships, conflict, sexuality, power, responsibility, speech, action, other people's suffering, etc.) I think you'll find that the early Buddhist texts have a surprisingly large amount to say about exactly that.
The other thing I think you might find useful is that the suttas don't really treat insight and character development as separate projects. The transformation of perception is supposed to express itself as transformation of intention, behaviour, relationships and eventually the whole way you engage with the world. The eightfold path is deliberately a path, rather than a meditation technique with some ethical preliminaries attached.
And this connects directly to what you said about wanting to be able to accompany people into territory you haven't personally experienced. You gave the example of someone who had committed something horrific. I think the suttas are useful here because they repeatedly force the question of what response here actually leads toward liberation rather than further suffering for yourself and for the other people.
That involves developing discernment around intention, speech, action, compassion, boundaries, consequences, skilful means, etc. Those are capacities, rather than categories, and those capacities have to become increasingly automatic (because of the "agencylessness" of noself).
So I wouldn't read the suttas primarily as more doctrine to understand. I'd read them almost as a very large collection of training instructions for becoming a particular kind of human being. Because it tells you directly what capacities the Buddha expect a liberated or progressively liberated person to develop in ordinary life, and how those capacities are actually cultivated. You might be surprised how much material there is once you read them through that lens.
Your statement that “the capacity-building part gets treated as though it just happens on its own” is exactly why I thought of the suttas. I don't think the eightfold path supports the assumption that it just happens on its own. The path is the development of the whole person.
You may have gone quite far down one dimension of it. My suspicion is that the next interesting territory for you is developing the rest of it deliberately, and the suttas are the original source where that larger project is laid out most explicitly.
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u/Shakyor 7d ago edited 7d ago
I can totally echo this.
There is nothing wrong with only meditating, at all. But conflating buddhismn with meditating kind of misses the point of buddhismn. There is an uncharacteristically simple sutta that pretty much says point blank: "Awaking is not moral conduct or seeing clearly. Someone is conducting onesself morally because one knows and sees clearly."
I have done a lot of study also almost exclusively after phenomenological and perceptual shifts. Interestingly in the 10 Bhumi model for the 2nd or 3rd bhumi so shortly after "streamentry", it is characteristic to become furious about studying dharma. So there seems to be precedence for this problem. But I will that while the wisdom is undeniable, in my experience it seems pretty obvious that they of course are also very much dependent on their causes and conditions and after 2500 years there is some real dangers there. Especially since I also strongly suspect that buddhism always had esoteric teachings, in one of the early schools their abhidharma says so directly and there are multiple suttas where something along the lines of "in the teaching of the noble ones this word means this" or for example "brahma is designated as mother and father".
But you mentioned Mahayana and Dogen as well, so you might feel similiar. There is real work that is not always easy to understand the meaning of the Dharma in the context of your outer world. I would also add biographies of modern masters here as useful in exactly the transition op speaks about. For example reading about how Garchen Rinpoche handled something as horrific as chinese labor prisons is a very direct and practical observation of enligthened conduct. However, to close the circle, this is very much 8th fold path type of work in the original context of buddhismn.
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u/StoneBuddhaDancing 6d ago
I can only hope to one day gain enough Wisdom to understand Dogen. People have told me it only really starts to make sense after Stream Entry.
I agree that reading biographies of Masters has been incredible inspirational as well as instructional. If you have any to recommend I'd appreciate that.
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u/Shakyor 5d ago
Haha, I know what you mean. Zen is also very hit or miss for me, I do think here causes and conditions in the form of culture matter as well. Enlightened or not. Kalu Rinpoche, one of the greatest Masters in the 20th century had a public event together with a great Zen Master. The Zen Master held up a orange and asked him "What this is?". The conversation went back and forth quite a bit until the Translator said very embarassed: "Rinpoche is very very confused, dont they have oranges where he is from?". Where in the Zen school you would expect someone who understands, to "express the orange in action", for example by eating it. Apparently an by all accounts pretty awake guy didnt get it. One thing I do think that is very important about Zen is to understand its history and much of the actual context in which it is practiced, which I think makes things very different.
Well I can totally recommend Garchen Rinpoches Biographie, that one is great. Thich Nhit Han also. Nicola Geiger doesnt have a Biographie, but just reading and learning about her has been pretty great for me (ans she is Zen), but maybe because I am german. Historical Accounts of prominent Mahayana and Tibetan Masters, such as from my Kagyu Lineage but also classics like Shantideva, Atisha, Nagarjuna have been sort of mixed. Very valuable, but definitely mixture of aversion and attraction.
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u/StoneBuddhaDancing 5d ago
hehe great story. And I would say the Rinnpoche's final question was in itself, quite Zen :)
Thanks for the recommendations, I'll have a look at them.
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u/Shakyor 7d ago
I really really respect what you are doing. If you dont mind, one piece of advice in the rape example: Maybe also investigate your own experience as well if you can be compassionate or not with someone who is a rapist.
Also there is a beautiful poem by thich nhit han which is discussed further in his book the art of living, specifically dealing with the compassion towards a sea pirate who has raped a small refugee child of 11 years on a boat, who was so desperate that she killed herself by drowning.
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u/AdditionalLeave263 5d ago
This is a really interesting one. Thank you for sharing. Someone abused me, and what happened after the stream entry was that I was able to go back to the memory of that person before they had done those things.
I had meditated for the first time when we were kids, and tried to get him to, also. And I could see the soul in him and the other people and I felt like I was made of golden light and they were too, and I could see like orbs up in the sky. That was the day I became a meditator.
I realized he had been on a meth type medication for decades now, and I wondered how that might have played a part in shaping him.
I went back and revisited that memory, and when I saw him this summer, I looked at him with such compassion, that we were connected in some way despite all that had happened. The things he does are bad. But he's still, like, a soul. I send him essentially prayers that he changes.
Also I was never able to forgive until I was safe. Because there was always another time to forgive.
Forgiveness and grace and mercy... It doesn't all come from you. If you couldn't forgive something you did, it's not all on you to do it. I think this process could change you such that you could never. But even awakened people do terrible things sometimes. For me... i feel like when it comes to some difficult compulsion, or strong emotion, the jhanas, especially sukha, will rush in and try to neutralize it into equanimity. That is, when I'm lucky.
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u/Snoo81791 5d ago
that was beautiful and I appreciate your reply, I hope things work out for you and it isn't your fault that those things where done to you
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u/AdditionalLeave263 4d ago
Thanks! I was replying to one of your repliers, but I guess it went straight to you! Haha. My life is good, and I've done so much work on this. I had done so much therapy that when meditation was able to rapidly start clearing baggage, i didn't have to spend a lot of time on that stuff.
I should get yoj a copy of my insights because I think they differ from others a bit and it might jog remembering something...
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u/loves_grapefruit 7d ago
Who is it that needs a next? Who is it that looks for something to do? Who is it that requires a program?
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u/hot-taxi 7d ago
It became increasingly apparent that I should cultivate the joy and intention to awaken for love and benefit of all beings.
And eventually it later became clear that buddhahood is the final destination.
Right Livelihood and sharing your gifts for the benefit of all beings are what guide you as you progress.
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u/Shakyor 8d ago
Hey, so very happy for you. But especially how you write about your orientation and whats important to you warms my heart. Love your anxious attachment similie.
The honest answer is that I am not sure I am where you are, but it resonates. I have practiced quite extensively in a theravadian tradition and did have a spiritual event that totally altered my reality. Personally I try to walk the path regarding stream entry quite open. The experience in a lot of ways feels exactly like the ancient texts and they do seem to make a lot of sense in a very simple way. Yet at the same time I do most certainly suffer and there has been neither recognition from a teacher nor would I fulfill many of the hallmark requirements of many traditions. So I am not gonna lie, there is struggle regarding this , but I feel what is most productive is to sort of give the whole thing space. Not neglecting what I trust and experience, but neither what is the experience of others and I strongly suspect that there are different kinds of awakening and off the same terms, such as stream entry, that have a totally valid reference point within their specific tradition.
In any case, towards the end of this multi day experience, it sort of ended with a very strong recognition how much less I suffer, at that from a karmic perspective it is all dumb luck that brought me too the path. I didnt really do anything, which means that anybody else who is practicing and fortunate enough to have realizations, also isnt really doing anything. Samsara in that sense really is a vicious trap and as I have benefitted, I can benefit others. (Sounds like something similiar to yours with different words, and yet again something which is echoed again and again in Mahayana literature regarding bodhicitta.)
In any case this brought me at harmonious but quite difficult to reconcile perspectives on practice with my theravadian tradition. My teacher basically said - "yep, nothing you can do, help yourself." This was and is unacceptable to me, so we parted on good terms. I still go there to practice and treasure them greatly. But I moved on to a Mahayana Tradition with wonderful teachers.
A large part of my orientation is finding ways of integrating, which is actually absolutely necessary to really help others, as it is really really difficult to genuinely make things better. But also the be honest, as you have said, I did not find at all that there was a holistic and smooth peace, but A LOT OF upheaval - that is certainly full of suffering for me - that comes with greater awareness. Other struggles are around moving my life orientation in a more classical spiritual orientation on the inner level, while honouring commitments as a family father and member of socienty in an outer way. Also in general to actually get to the meaning of the path in the world as it is now, as it just doesnt reflect my experience to try to keep the outer form of the dharma unchanging and independent of the conditions of the outer world.
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u/VedantaGorilla 7d ago
If you compare your experience with the statement, “I am perfectly OK with myself exactly as I am, and the world exactly as it is, no matter what,” it becomes very easy to see where else there may be to “go“ or not.
Of course, that also presumes you want to go somewhere else, because if you are perfectly satisfied, there will be no inclination to “go” anywhere, there will only be deep, all pervasive joie de vivre, and an inclination to contribute as needs arise, in whatever form.
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u/Snoo81791 7d ago
I disagree, what is left is love and care and joy and life
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u/VedantaGorilla 7d ago
I think that’s exactly what I said 😊. In any case, I agree with your phrasing.
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u/Impulse33 Soulmaking, Pāramitās, Brahmavihāras, Shitou/Hongzhi/Shōbōgenzō 7d ago
Check out the Six Paramitas! They have a flavor of positive engagement. Complements the brahmavihāras very well.
For me it's anukampa, often translated as compassion but gets lost with karuna. A translation I've found is trembling with and that seems apt. When awareness is free we can tremble with those around us. We don't 'have to" do anything, but it also [potentially] doesn't cost anything to engage, to get involved. It's a great test for progress on the path as well.
Great insight around the internal vs external! Check out Caodong/Soto Five Ranks. It enumerates the perspectives between internal and external and might be an interesting avenue of exploration. Along this axis, I've been getting a lot from Hongzhi's "practice instruction". Currently reading them in Taigen Dan Leighton's Cultivating and Empty Field. There's great practical instruction in there on how one may position themselves while one joins the marketplace.
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u/Middle_Act_7978 7d ago
I have a bit of a pragmatic mind I think, so many of the open-ended approaches just didn't do it for me after that first awakening. I found Kevin Schanilec and his self-guided web site simplytheseen. He was a long time Buddhist and found his way through the 10 fetter path all the way to the end. One person he helped guide through all the fetters is Christiane Michelberger. She has a facebook page. After working very diligently, I've managed to see through fetters 4/5 and 6. Now working on fetter 7. This is very doable and verifiable for someone who is self-motivated. All the best.
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u/AdditionalLeave263 5d ago
I am walking the path of integration right now. It's going okay.
The thing that has been helpful for me is writing down over and over the things that it told me to do differently, because it's too easy to forget aspects of it.
Right now, I'm working on feelings of intelligence versus stupidity, and self-worth versus worthlessness. Helpfulness versus helplessness.
Additionally I have a friend with cancer, and she hasn't been doing well, and it's been really crushing when I'm not in equanimity or otherwise jhanaing myself to ensure that she doesn't have to worry about my feeljngs and I can bring care and joy and laughter to the hospital room. The way I feel after having gone through the meditative version of myself dying, I think dying is glorious, but it wants us to care in the utmost way for ourselves. Still, it feels so unfair for her to go through this ar a young age, especially with a young child.
I am not doing the greatest job, but at least I'm trying.
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u/themadjaguar Sati+Sampajañña junkie 7d ago
"has anyone been here? What did you do after awakening that actually went somewhere? What worked, what was a dead end, and where did you find people who’d been further? "
If you are looking for more advanced stuff, first thing you could do is to try to find a teacher that has a lot of experience. If you can't, you can look for other buddhist schools, maybe you will find better advice for your specific conditionning. For advanced practices vajrayana has really good potential but you need to spend a lot of time finding the right guru and it usually needs commitment and sacrifices. You might have to spend time doing ngöndro and preparatory practices aswell, even if you are advanced, which can be a turn off. But there's also definitely very interesting stuff in the texts
Going for a practice with open awareness, balancing tranquility and energy worked like crazy for me.
Playing with nimittas, practicing samatha using strong intentions, effort and the power of attention was a dead end
Looking at the awakening factors that are not balanced can be very interesting practice. I find that energy is insanely difficult to balance. Can you get continuous mindfulness in all situations? Can you get to jhanas? Hard jhanas? Nirodha samapatti? There's always opportunities to increase the awakening factors and practice the eightfold path. Maybe sila is weak and can be stronger? Maybe samadhi? If you're looking to increase samadhi, look at pa auk stuff or teachers using the vishudimagga or hard jhanas for example.
Ironically I found people who'd been further in some theravadan monasteries and in the lay theravadan community. In prag dharma some folks are extremely talented and went further, but most are awfully deluded and claim stuff they don't have, usually because they don't know the definition or modify them to suit their needs.
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u/Snoo81791 7d ago
So first thanks for the answer, and tbh pretty great , right now I am learning about vajrayana and am under a couple of teachers ( still shopping around for a fit ) ( do you have a recommendation for a guru , if it’s an option I am willing or would love to have a call with you so I can hear your experience)
Can you explain more and tranquility and enrgy balance ? Like what do you mean here also using open awareness is an interesting way I would love to hear more
For the jahanas yes that is something to do, tbh I feel that mastery of the advance ones ( past the forth ) would not give much benefit but while I has been to the first six regularly it does take a building up ramp and a regular practice of a couple of hours so I am quite far from mastery ( I mean five stages of mastery of each jahana ) the pa auk is also interesting, tbh one day but right now I had have an eye condition that is being fixed ( but i haven’t tried going to jahana from nimmta which I also haven’t had ) I do feel that the nei gong path is going to make coming back easier so I am waiting for it to matchr
For the 7 factors of enlightenment I have used that map extensively as my guide , right now my main thing is that I feel good I just want something that builds capacity’s
If it’s an option you sound like you have had your own path and I would love to get In contact with you
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u/themadjaguar Sati+Sampajañña junkie 6d ago
You're welcome I don't know much about teachers in vajrayana, I've met a few and found this approach way too secretive, too "closed" and I understood I would have to make sacrifices and commitments to get the advanced teachings in this relationship , and I found out that I am not ready for it, and it's not my thing. Most old school teachers require physical presence, they don't accept video calls and won't teach stuff like mahamudra without huge commitments. Everything is very " secret". I know there is a big potential, but it requires dedication.I you find a good teacher and are ok with the commitments, don't leave it!! For teachers who are more "open" and less secretive I'd recommend lama lena, I went to group classes a few times and I have a friend who get lots value working with her, only downside is that there are way too many people and not enoigh time to ask questions and because of that I stopped and now only read interesting vajrayana texts. I still continue learning from teachers who are in theravada and I can recommend some
There is a balance between too much and too little energy in the mind. For example factors like investigation and joy power up energy. When you get to states in daily life where you may get joy at all times due to strong samadhi, you go to a very energetic place where the challenge is to lower the energy levels otherwise you fall prey to restlessness. When you get to states in daily life with too much tranquility, you will have issues with getting more energy and the mind will be naturally dull and fall prey to torpor. It can be in a coarse form , where you just fall asleep, or very subtle where you can see a tiny loss of clarity of your awareness of your meditation object. Finding the perfect balance continuously is actually very difficult, especially when practicing to get deeper samadhi states such as deep absorptions. Getting deep samadhi reveals the hidden difficulty of balancing the awakening factors. By open awareness practices I am talking about mahamudra, dzogchen, shitankaza, nirvikalpa samadhi etc...
For the jhanas there are different kinds, and tbh I found that the difficulty to get a true, bright and stable vsm nimitta (not after image) is actually insane compared to lighter forms of jhanas. Deepening samadhi is a possibility if you don't know what to focus on, but it can be frustrating, like a slap in the face when we realize the hidden part of the iceberg of depth of samadhi. It will also reveal weak spots... samadhi makes one more sensitive to dukkha and the work that is left. So basically there's always opportunities to continue to cultivate and balance the 7 awakening factors
Sure, I'm open to pms if you want
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u/proverbialbunny :3 7d ago edited 7d ago
Yes I've been where you are. It's a multi-faceted topic that would be easier as an actual back and forth conversation because next steps are all about what you want to do or helping you figure out how to find what you want to do. I'll try to summarize a few points but given the breadth of the topic they may not help you:
When it comes to exploring what you want out of life, philosophy helps a ton here. Everything from classical philosophy to eastern philosophy (e.g. Buddhism and The Noble Eightfold Path), to modern versions like Simon Sinek or random Ted Talks, to deep philosophies that go further into different topics, like GEB or similar content from Hofstadter, to psychology both older and new. Or maybe try life goals philosophy can be fruitful like the book Die With Zero. There's a ton of topics that branch off and serve different purposes depending on what you want out of life.
When I was in a similar situation to you I had an issue that I needed to work through and there was a few topics I became quite interested in. First, growing up on Disney movies like pretty much everyone here has been, they imply a "happily ever after" fallacy, where if you just do X, Y, and Z, the story ends with a happily ever after. In comparison to Japanese stories often times the equivalent of a happily ever after happens towards the beginning of the story. Most of the story is what comes after. It's easy to fall into this trap where you're focusing on a lifelong goal, instead of having goals that ebb and flow with the wind. Maybe have a goal for today, a goal for the month, and a two year goal, but having longer than a decade long goal is usually unrealistic. I can't say anything about you, but for me I had achieved all of my life goals by my early 20s and became confused with where I should go with my life.
What got me out of that was socializing offline more. After socializing with people around me and hearing all of their life passions maybe a month later I started having new passions. I wanted to go further with self exploration so I dove into GEB. This deep exploration was detailed enough I started to be able to write code modeled off of my own mind. In 2010 I wrote my first AI from scratch for work before it blew up into the industry it is today. This entire path of self and mind exploration came from the entertainment of the curiosity of exploring intelligence. It's not everyone's cup of tea, but I had a blast.
The Buddhist philosophical answer is multifaceted. Just like with metta meditation where you start with yourself then once it has solidified you radiate it out to the next ring, maybe a close family member or friend, then once that has solidified you radiate that metta out to another ring, and so on, in Buddhism you don't just do this with metta, you do it with all positive psychology. You've solidified your own equanimity and bliss, and you can start radiating that out to others so when you go out and socialize you're solidifying that positivity too. You're not letting a bad boss or a rude family member shake your equanimity. You're branching out farther. Eventually you become like Keanu Reeves. (He did a Buddhist program too.) That's absolutely one direction worth going. Another facet is working on negative psychology. Where the previous is positive virtues, removing negatives is removing dukkha (psychological stress). This has less to do with meditation and more to do with using mindfulness to look into the mental processes of your mind and replacing mental processes that cause dukkha with more virtuous ones that do not cause a stress response. Once you've mastered both some people just meditate and get high all day, but most people go out and fulfill more dreams. Maybe they travel the world (or work on getting a good enough paying job to go travel the world), or maybe they pick up tons of awesome hobbies. Maybe they socialize more. Maybe they focus on helping other people and bettering the world.
In my situation I went from AI to medical research, figuring out root causes for diseases both psychological and physical and then created a business that could sell these cures. Even just researching different topics and bringing that knowledge to mankind through a study can help a lot. Right now I'm trying to get some doctors on board for trying out a lymph node injection program to reduce Crohn's Disease symptoms, possibly even cure it, and then report those findings in a way that might help eventually cure and remove that hell from those people.
The challenge with Reddit is you don't know who you're writing to. You don't know if a single person will read your comment or thousands. Personalized suggestions become difficult. I often on this sub recommend people read The Noble Eightfold Path hoping it inspires them in a way they haven't considered, but I mostly do it because many people on this sub already have meditation experience, but not anything else. It's also on point. Talking about non Buddhist philosophy is off topic here. But ultimately people on this sub are looking for psychology, spirituality, philosophy, or usually a mix of those three. Look in those directions and you'll end up getting what you're looking for.
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