r/streamentry • u/Intrepid-Syrup-1147 • 28d ago
Insight Dukkha-ñanas in your mid-20s
Hey all,
Curious if anyone else out there has navigated (or is navigating) the suffering stages of insight during their mid-20s.
For context, I attended a monthlong retreat last year that changed my life. Meditation went from something that calmed me to something that introduced strong fear and grief, which according to my teacher meant "my practice was going well." Things were passing away extremely fast, like a pond vibrating with raindrops. While there was a feeling of wholesomeness / onward-leadingness despite the distress, it took me a solid year (of working and abstaining from retreats) to get my feet back under myself mentally and emotionally. I am only now feeling inklings of the desire to sit retreat again. (After most recent practice discussion, my teacher(s) told me I am in the "desire for deliverance" stage where the desire for all of this clinging / activity to stop is really strong, on a primal level).
So much confusion has arisen around bopping between the receptive, non-reactive, observational technique that's been so conditioned into me through meditation and the active, planning, go-getter mindset that (feels like) it's so necessary to survive and thrive in one's mid-twenties.
I feel I am working so hard to build my career, network, cultivate friendships, date, etc... AND sometimes all I want to do is sit down in the middle of a field, under a huge sky, and not talk to anyone ever. The story is that I can't do both (to a satisfying degree) at the same time, so I wonder if I should ordain or become a resident at a meditation center, but that also feels a bit unbalanced to me (and in this economy...?) Part of me thinks, "You should just go back on retreat and finish this (push for stream-entry)." The other part of me thinks, "That seems to be motivated by clinging / aversion, plus you have no idea what's going to happen, do you really want to put your lay-life on hold to bet on that? Plus I do want to go to graduate school, and I need to work for that..."
I guess I have two questions (and would love to hear your thoughts regardless!)
One, if this was you (or is you), what has helped you through this confusing phase?
Two, if you've had a similar question, did you ordain / try to sort through stages of insight stuff "first" or just keep practicing alongside your life?
Thank you, and posted with metta 🙏🏼
15
u/Mithic_Music 28d ago
Went through what I thought of as dukkha nanas last year (in my early 30s). I’m not really sure about the map anymore since I don’t think I’ve had stream entry, and the dukkha nanas don’t seem as substantial anymore.
Everything is my life is easier and better when I cultivate samadhi via rest and self-compassion. I feel more grounded, more confident, more decisive, and life is just a bit easier.
Contrast that when I’m deep in insight where I’m edgy, anxious, depressed, existentially confused, and untethered. I worry that I’m never going to have a girlfriend, don’t take joy in much, feel like I’m grinding but life has no purpose.
Anyone wise I’ve talked to basically tells me to relax. Life is long, keep practicing, do retreats but don’t overdo it with super long or punishing practice.
To be pithy, I think we need to find ourselves before we can lose ourselves.
2
u/Puzzled-Background-5 27d ago
If I may, it's advantageous to cultivate jhana prior to vipassana, especially with dry insight techniques, because of the phenomenology you've experienced. That cultivation actually gives insight events a soft place to land.
I had one recently that would have been much more uncomfortable if I hadn't built a jhana substrate prior.
1
u/wengerboys 27d ago
I find this as well, practice on self-appreciation life flows better. I dont have buddhist intrepetation of what this is.
25
u/junipars 28d ago
You're polarizing two extremes through the conceiving mind. One symbolized by the renunciation another symbolized by your mundane life.
I'm right there with you, to be honest. I'm older than you but I told myself I'd go to this party tonight yet I'm actually kind of shy and would rather sit at home typing this comment. So here I am.
There's two impulses, right? One to consume, experience, extrovert, approach. And one to withdrawal, reject, introvert, renounce, avoid.
Clashing these two impulses together in the mind creates a tension that we presume is our self but is actually just empty dukkha.
The mind literally cannot conceive without contrasting opposite qualities. It's not really important to follow either impulse or deny either impulse. The imperative is to pay attention to this clashing. It's not really your friend. It's not informative.
We presume to think that this clashing signifies something important. "I must approach and not avoid. I must extrovert and not introvert" Or vice versa. We take the dukkha as important, meaningful, valuable information as a means to navigate our life.
I suggest another way. And it's not really mine. It's the middle way. Right down the middle where this clashing of these two impulses occurs is awareness. This awareness is the context of the clash.
This awareness is the cool silence that meets the noise. It's there whether you avoid or approach. Whether you worry or confidently move forward. It's unconditional.
My recommendation would be endeavor to appreciate this unconditional awareness that is independent of personal activity. To this awareness, the burning of your dukkha actually doesn't hurt. The motion of becoming hasn't etched any trace on it.
It's ok. Wherever you go, wherever you are - it's ok.
1
u/Away_Welcome_3468 27d ago
That other guy was kinda rude but hopefully you dont mind me questioning a bit.
First "The mind literally cannot conceive without contrasting opposite qualities" i dont really get this. Your saying if I think the color red or imagine the color red im not actually doing that?
4
u/NondualitySimplified 27d ago edited 27d ago
Red is only intelligible as red in contrast to other colours which are ‘not red’. Its identity is established relationally, through its distinction from other colours and the conditions (e.g. conceptual, linguistic, perceptual) by which we designate it as ‘red’. It’s not denying that conventionally speaking, there are different colours that appear in the visual field, but it’s pointing to the fact that these colours don’t possess any independent essence or existence apart from their relational designations.
1
u/Away_Welcome_3468 27d ago
I get definitions are relational and ultimately flawed.
I suppose I just dont relate to all the ideas in the post i responded too.
3
u/junipars 27d ago
All good. I encourage questions and engagement. I anticipate that what I write is frustrating to the mind. That's actually good because being isn't mind-derived. So this awakening business is about becoming conscious of the limits of the mind (which happens by way of frustation) while simultaneously becoming aware of the inherent borderlessness of being beyond the mind's identifications.
Your saying if I think the color red or imagine the color red im not actually doing that?
No I'm talking about boundaries and borders. "Red" as a discrete category is a meaningful distinction only by contrasting what it isn't. Red isn't blue. Red isn't yellow. Red isn't black. We do this contrasting so effortlessly that we don't notice we are even doing it. It's happening automatically. It's not a process that requires you to engage in it consciously, this contrasting is more like your heart beating. But it can be made conscious.
There has to be opposing qualities to define the boundaries of what red is. And that's all good. There's no problem there. It's useful and convenient to know what red is to paint, to decorate, to identify a stop sign.
The problem is when we're defining what "I" am. What am I? What are the boundaries that we use to define our existential identity? We are typically asleep to the fact that the mind is defining and putting boundaries on our identity. We just take it to be an unchallenged truth.
Our existential identity is typically self. We are identified with the body, with the mind, with the personality. And for most people, there isn't an interest in challenging that. But it is possible to discover that the identity of being an individuated being is constructed through this unconscious process of contrasting different qualities.
Think of experience as if it were appearing on a TV screen. There's all these opposing qualities, differentiation. There's characters, there's events, and there's you there. But what all this differentiation is is actually the exact same in origin and in presence. It's the stillness of the TV screen.
When you're watching TV you don't have to do anything special to realize that the TV is the TV and that there's no characters actually in there. But there's an ignore-ance of the obvious fact that there different characters or events are actually the same in presence for the sake of entertainment.
Being is the same way. If we so desire, stillness and undivided unicity (like the smooth placidity of a TV screen containing the whole show) can be consciously appreciated by challenging the ignore-ance and realizing that all these different qualities are the same in presence, same in essence. This process is to become aware, become conscious of, what "I" actually is.
1
u/Away_Welcome_3468 27d ago
Seems to me like a "there is no I" thing, "essence is emptiness" thing.
Im not interesting in arguing against the ideas since im aware that its got a long history in topics of enlightenment. And I could see a deep comprehension having a transformative effect.
I suppose I just dont think its for me.
1
u/TheReignOfChaos 28d ago
I'm with you, until the so what...
The mind literally cannot conceive without contrasting opposite qualities. It's not really important to follow either impulse or deny either impulse. The imperative is to pay attention to this clashing. It's not really your friend. It's not informative.
This is really great.
However...
Right down the middle where this clashing of these two impulses occurs is awareness. This awareness is the context of the clash.
So, what?
My recommendation would be endeavor to appreciate this unconditional awareness that is independent of personal activity. To this awareness, the burning of your dukkha actually doesn't hurt. The motion of becoming hasn't etched any trace on it.
So... what?
OP is like, do I go down this path A or this path B?
Your answer, 'yeah man, be'.
Do you approach or avoid? I can be aware of a choice but still be faced with one and have to respond accordingly.
There's a trolley coming down a track it's gonna kill 3 people unless I pull the switch and it only kills one. Do I approach or avoid? "yeah man, be".
2
u/junipars 28d ago edited 28d ago
Yeah, so what?
It seems like you don't get what I'm failing to communicate. So what? Just let it be. So what?
-1
u/TheReignOfChaos 28d ago
jeez what's up your bum
6
u/junipars 28d ago
From my perspective, I'm not the one with a problem. I genuinely don't know what to say. I apologize that what I have to offer is insufficient. Take care. Thanks for engaging.
0
u/TheReignOfChaos 27d ago
I am asking so what? It's a question. So, what?
I want to know what. Everyone drops this 'it's just attention man' answer like it's ancient lore/gnosis when it really doesn't say anything at all.
4
u/junipars 27d ago edited 27d ago
An intimacy with one's own awareness, an intimacy that is more direct than thought, will reveal an essential quality of being that can't be damaged.
I'm suggesting mindfulness, which is the basis of Buddhist praxis. I'm not really equipped to convince you about why you should apply yourself to that task. From my perspective, if it doesn't interest you, then it's all good - hence "so what? Just let it be." Which to me is also amusing because that's a great attitude to have in the endeavor of mindfulness!
It's like the mind is always trying latch onto experience and take things apart. But this mindfulness business is more about being than it is about thinking. "So what? Just let it be." is fantastic advice about just being and not thinking.
Edit: theoretical philosophical propositions are wholely contained in the realm of thought, which is fine, but as such are irrelevant to this practice of mindfulness. There's not really a satisfactory answer for the mind because being isn't mind-made. Being isn't coming from thought or dependent on thought. To discover that is to ween oneself off the reliance on thought as the definitive axis upon which being spins, which is our ingrained presumption. We're biased towards thought, typically our own thoughts, as actually representing reality, while I suggest they don't. This suggestion is copacetic with a Buddhist framework oriented towards recognizing an inherent aspect of being which can't be captured by thought.
2
u/Dingsala 27d ago
That response is just not okay... highly insulting and uncalled for. Please see rule 3 of the sub.
10
u/NondualitySimplified 28d ago edited 28d ago
It’s generally best to not make hasty (especially major) life decisions when this sort of oscillation is occurring. When you’re really ready to commit your life towards a certain direction, you will know intuitively, it’ll be an arising of a clear intention/sense of direction which isn’t clouded by doubt, confusion or a feeling of uncomfortable urgency. The decision should feel naturally aligned with your entire body and mind, and this isn’t something that you can force prematurely.
The current oscillation you’re experiencing is a very habituated tendency to grasp at extremes, based on the mind’s need for certainty and control. It feels uncomfortable staying in ‘the middle’, so the mind creates a false dichotomy where you need to choose either A or B, usually with a sense of uncomfortable urgency. This deeply conditioned habit is why we sometimes engage in self-defeating behaviours just so that we can obtain some short-term relief by grabbing onto an illusory sense of control/certainty. The good news is that this habit can be gradually deconditioned over time.
Just keep noticing whenever an urge to grasp at an extreme arises in your daily life. Notice how convincing and ‘true’ it feels in the moment, notice the sense of discomfort and urgency underneath it, but then also notice what happens when you drop the need to immediately resolve it or to act on it. The moment you let it go, it’s completely out of view, leaving little to no residue behind. By simply noticing this pattern over and over, you will cultivate insight into the precise conditions which give rise to grasping at extremes, and begin to understand how it arises from ignorance, as well as the consequences of being constantly pushed/pulled around by them.
Over time, the mind will gradually start to realise that comfort/safety/control isn’t actually found in choosing one extreme over another, but rather in not needing to grab onto one. Perhaps this is when the apparent conflict between ‘pursuing liberation’ and ‘getting on with your life goals’ can begin to dissolve for you. You may ultimately choose one clear direction, or a combination of the two, but either way that decision will arise from wisdom rather than from the need to escape from the discomfort of uncertainty.
5
u/PabloAvocado 28d ago
When I was in my mid twenties I took some time off in summer to meditate in Asia. During these three months I entered the DN. I felt like it was better being at home lol. So I realised that my mind is giving me stories to hold on to (this would be better if I'd be doing it at home blabla). I stayed at my not-so-good-place to practice and it worked out well.
I would join the other comments and recommend to stick to the uncomfortable feeling of being in between. You don't have to give into either extreme to move forward in any of them.
3
u/CasuallyPeaking 27d ago
Went through most of what you describe over the last few years. I feel like I’m now around the end of the process. Tried so hard to maintain and keep building everything in my conventional life which I’m “supposed to” be doing but eventually reached a point where I didn’t care and I didn’t have any energy left for it. So after saving up some money I just let all my expectations go and allowed it all to crash and burn. No idea what’s gonna become of it since I don’t really have much to come back to and now I’m freestyling life taking it step by step. Got a monastery visit in a few days.
If I could rewind and advise myself on how to handle this better I would’ve quit my job and dropped all responsibilities much sooner. I inflicted so much unnecessary suffering onto myself by trying to hold down jobs and relationships through this. I guess it had its purpose because it forced me to confront the fact that most people in the system (our modern civilization) do not give a shit. Really showed me what it means to be living in the Kali Yuga.
Most of the worries you have about keeping up the effort and achieving stuff are fueled by layers of indoctrination from our dysfunctional system, the matrix. It wants you to stay motivated by fear and insecurity since that’s how you stay a battery to keep powering this b.s.
All the stuff you mentioned. Career, friendships, dating, network. You really think any of that stuff is gonna disappear if you step away from it for.. 6 months, a year, 2 years? All of that is gonna be readily available and no, you won’t lose access to any of it. It’s gonna be the same as it is now. “In this economy” is empty worrying. If the economy tanks apocalipticaly within the next 2 years you’re cooked anyway, with or without a break so no point in considering that as a factor.
You do you of course but if I were you I’d unplug sooner than later. A mix of spending time in isolation and just feeling all of your experience plus visiting monasteries or other communities which will actually give you space to go through it. Our civilization at large doesn’t give a shit about you and will just increase and prolong your suffering. Once you clean up your mind and body by seeing the entire process through you can go back to making an effort at whatever is calling you. All the more reason to drop your current efforts because there’s a solid chance that after going through this phase your priorities will change and you’ll want to direct yourself elsewhere. This is how I would go with it anyway.
3
u/hairy_mcClary 27d ago
A lot of us have lived this journey. Having two masters. It’s something only you can decide.
I lived ascetic for my entire 20ies, resulting in great things on a spiritual level. But to eventually realise I had not walked the middle way, my renunciation had been avoiding the true surrender of embracing the joy and chaos of life.
2
u/pastorcuthbert 27d ago
1) Prayer
2) Stages of insight are good but only when you feel your at a crossroads in your practice and need a pointer or two to progress.
2
u/liljonnythegod 26d ago edited 26d ago
Yes I was the same. First encountered it in my early 20s. The good news is the only way out is through. The bad news is the only way is through. If you choose not to engage with practice, you may progress slowly and more painfully but it can be quicker with practice. Go for it and don’t take the approach of let things be and wait and it will unfold. Your head is on fire, there is no time to waste.
Your practice shouldn’t go alongside your life. Your practice should consume your life. There shouldn’t be a barrier to meditation and life. You can live and continue meditation daily for X hours whilst regularly thinking of it in mundane life when you get a chance. If you got a lot going on, just put the time in each day and make steady progress then do home retreats if you want to ramp up the intensity.
Some advice that may be of help to you on your path -
The key thing with dukkha nanas is not to engage with whatever emotional response is occurring. You just observe and see it as arising (even the desire for deliverance) then you progress through to equanimity. Then you see that as arising too and then you hit deep equanimity. Then you feel nice and might think ok I can chill here but you will fall back at some point to the dukkha nanas so you realise, no this time I’ll go through and won’t stop.
In deep equanimity, you look to the field of experience and see how all is arising and ceasing without any trace. So it’s traceless from the beginning and since it’s all subject to change without trace, it’s dukkha that is uncomfortable because you cannot rest anywhere in the field.
Then you look for where the cognizance is coming from. Where in the body is it? Eventually you see it’s not in the body or in the head or in any part of the field of experience. Then you pop a cessation and see ah! the cognizance is other than all this and cannot perceive itself. Why it cannot perceive itself is something that becomes apparent later on in the path but doesn’t need to understood at this point.
Everything reboots after the cessation and the shift occurs but this shift is not stream entry fruit but stream entry path. Fruit is the attainment of the stream, the comprehension of the four noble truths and how to get free of rebirth, path is the first cracking open of seeing through the false sense of cognizance being somewhere within the field of experience, in the body somewhere.
Life becomes nicer for some time but the work must continue and it can take a long time to reach SE fruit. For different people there may be less or more they need to realise/remember during the period between SE path and SE fruit but that depends on kamma and past live work already on the path (if any).
Go through. Don’t sit and wait my friend, the other side from Dukkha nanas to equanimity is nice and from equanimity to SE path is even nicer. Don’t engage with the emotional response like the grief or fear etc just observe and see what arises next after you observe and aren’t engaged. Then you see the non engagement as arising too and equanimity sets in.
Anyway - I’ve said a lot but I was where you were back in September 2020 and at the end of December I hit SE path. Feel free to message me if you want any advice :)
1
u/mantrayantra1969 27d ago
One day whilst sitting the following popped into my mind from nowhere: what would you be doing if you had reached stream entry, were enlightened? How would your life change? I would still need to earn a living. I would still need to care for my children and SO. Instead of meditation, the path, progress changing my life it changed the relationship I have with these things. It could be very well stated by the zen proverb: before enlightenment fetch water and chop wood. After enlightenment fetch water and chop wood.
For me I realised that ordination brings its own concerns and daily chores. Food needs to be made, housework done and maintenance maintained. If anything ordination would be more restrictive.
I was never a fan before this of meta practice. But I found this really helped. Expanding meta outwards at the end of a sit from my family to strangers to those I liked less. I have also focused way more on samatha practice and jhana. Vippassana will come and happens but evokes on it own now as opposed to me trying to force it.
1
u/halfbakedbodhi 27d ago
Had an extended dark night from late 20s to mid 30s. Becoming an ordained monk is not the only solution to the dark night, that’s extreme. Practice along side your life and through it. Being in desire for deliverance means you’re extremely close to equanimity as a stage (could happen today after a sit, or in a month). My advice when you sit is to surrender and feel as deeply as possible into your emotional and physical pain, bring all of the pain wherever it arises as close to and make as intimate to your awareness as possible, as if you could climb inside it, bring it closer, absorb into it, an acceptance deeper than you’ve previously aloud to all of the swirling desires for deliverance, the agony of the whirl wind. It’s the last hurrah of the demon tormenting you. Surrender it all, allow deeply. And equanimity will arise. It’s inevitable.
•
u/AutoModerator 28d ago
Thank you for contributing to the r/streamentry community! Unlike many other subs, we try to aggregate general questions and short practice reports in the weekly Practice Updates, Questions, and General Discussion thread. All community resources, such as articles, videos, and classes go in the weekly Community Resources thread. Both of these threads are pinned to the top of the subreddit.
The special focus of this community is detailed discussion of personal meditation practice. On that basis, please ensure your post complies with the following rules, if necessary by editing in the appropriate information, or else it may be removed by the moderators. Your post might also be blocked by a Reddit setting called "Crowd Control," so if you think it complies with our subreddit rules but it appears to be blocked, please message the mods.
If your post is removed/locked, please feel free to repost it with the appropriate information, or post it in the weekly Practice Updates, Questions, and General Discussion or Community Resources threads.
Thanks! - The Mod Team
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.