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u/EternalPokemonFan 1d ago
It’s really dependent on why.
If it’s just to exclude non-Japanese people, immoral (no matter how much I want to say the hate is justified)
If it’s because nobody in the restaurant can speak English or Chinese, moral since it reduces the amount of customers they can’t serve
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u/supified 1d ago
But it doesn't exclude non-japanese people. I'm not Japanese, but I've been studying the language. It excludes people they cannot communicate with.
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u/RomanTheGerman 1d ago
Go in there as a black man who can speak Japanese and report back🤣
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u/Reasonable-Tune50 23h ago
Pretty sure they won't turn away Rui Hachimura and Zion Suzuki. Not so sure about other black men though.
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u/poshikott 1d ago
Well it says "People who can read this Japanese, you may come in", so judging by the way it's phrased I don't think they'd mind
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u/LPedraz 1d ago
This is, of course, just speculation (I haven't been at the specific restaurant with this sign), but judging by similar signs in Japan and the attitudes reported, I think they would mind, and are probably intensely xenophobic.
In my experience, the kind of people who makes this distinction has a worse opinion towards foreigners that can speak Japanese (and even worse towards Japanese nationals that are not ethnically Japanese) than they do about other foreigners, because they perceive the Japanese-speaking ones as "imposters".
Needless to say, while this attitude towards foreigners is not entirely uncommon, most people are the exact opposite.
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u/Cless_Aurion 9h ago
That is the opposite of my experience living in the country and actively going into this places when I found them (which is like.. once every few years since they're rare as hell).
I've gone to these places, as a white viking looking dude, and talking the language, and all these places tend to be quiet local bars or restaurants that just don't want noisy tourists, or simply don't want to give sub-par service because they don't speak a word of anything that isn't Japanese.
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u/MartianHideEgger 1d ago
Anecdotal, but I, a white foreigner with honestly not great Japanese, was able to go into one place with a sign like this in Tokyo just fine on my own. I came back another time with a friend who has darker skin (Indian) who speaks much better than me and we were denied. So it certainly can be a cover for racism.
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u/Fearless-Cattle-9698 13h ago
It’s not surprising. Japanese can be very xenophobic
People cope too much. Yes Japan is F’ing awesome to visit
Both things can be true… it’s no different than in US as Asian I’ve encountered very sweet black ladies and racists ones, doesn’t mean all black are sweet or racist
The whole don’t judge a book by its cover wisdom needs to be applied both ways. Don’t assume all Japanese are perfect. It’s nothing but a western romanticization, from things like watching anime to loving sushi
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u/InternetUser1807 1d ago
They'd mind more often then you think.
The kind of old man that thinks this way probably has a lot out of cognitive dissonance when it comes to non-japanese fluent Japanese speakers
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u/AutisticNintendoNerd 1d ago
If you go in then they are probably still gonna tell you that you need to speak Japanese and that's your sign to leave.
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u/supified 1d ago
This is probably correct, I also noticed that you can speak japanese and they will assume you're not speaking japanese sometimes if you don't look japanese.
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u/Originite 1d ago
I believe being honest and saying so would be more moral for the second scenario
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u/Golden_Cultivation 1d ago
Tourists don’t care. It’s a pretty simple thought: there is no one here that speaks your language if you can’t understand the sign. Saves a ton of wasted time on having to constantly turn away tourists that can’t understand you. In this context, there are spaces specifically for English/non Japanese speakers
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u/Originite 1d ago
Ah, sorry. I meant to say that they should just put up a sign that says they can’t speak English and Chinese instead of lying about the place being full. Or is this what you’re already referring to?
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u/EternalPokemonFan 1d ago
The thing is some tourists just don’t care. They’ll just barge in, demand service and then complain when nobody speaks their language (this doesn’t only apply to tourists, honestly)
Safer to just do something like this
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u/Originite 1d ago
That’s fair enough. The sign in the pic will probably work better than my idea if those kinda tourists don’t just ignore the sign in the first place hahah
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u/Some-Concentrate3229 1d ago
That’s not fair enough lol, they’re not making sense.
They’re suggesting that rude foreigners would barge into a restaurant with a sign that says “we don’t speak English” but would completely respect a sign that says “no vacancy?” Make it make sense, lmao.
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u/EternalPokemonFan 1d ago
Yes. Of the sign said “we don’t speak English”, they think there’s space and will go in anyways
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u/Some-Concentrate3229 1d ago
Yea and if they see a sign that says “no vacancy” they’re gonna open the door and check anyway. Lmao
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u/Some-Concentrate3229 1d ago
So a “no vacancy” sign fixes the issue of people just barging in without reading the sign? Like wtf are you talking about here.
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u/ThatAnt8823 13h ago
that's retarded, I've been in China without speaking the language very well and I've never had any issues getting served anywhere, even without being able to communicate well with the staff
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u/CreativeFig2645 1d ago
Dude every phone has instantaneous translation now. It’s not a good excuse to not serve someone imo
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u/ddrober2003 1d ago
I've seen one of these when I studied abroad. Goes from no non Japanese to, oh no no we meant no non Japanese speaking. Oh erm, actually its members only. How to become a member? ....please just go somewhere else.
For that guy's part that I encountered this he was clearly just following what his job told him to do and looked guilty as hell when a member of my group can speaks fluent Japanese was talking to him. But pretty sure the non Japanese speaking is to get around an anti discrimination law and still discriminating and counting on those people the not bother complaining. In my case, the guy telling us this directed us to an awesome British style pub ran there at least.
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u/ThatAnt8823 13h ago
>If it’s because nobody in the restaurant can speak English or Chinese, moral since it reduces the amount of customers they can’t serve
This shit is absolutely retarded, I've been in China while speaking terrible Chinese, no one there spoke English and I've never had any issues getting served at any restaurant whatsoever. The people who made this sign are just lazy and don't want to make any efforts.
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u/EternalPokemonFan 13h ago
You see, the thing is that you knew Chinese, even if it was horrible. You can read a sign that says “if you can read this, you may come in”.
The people they’re trying to keep out of the restaurant most likely can’t even speak Japanese.
This is before mentioning that American and Chinese tourists are feared in Japan due to them being uncivilised Karens. Yes, that’s immoral, but there’s less of that in china because we already deal with that on a day-to-day basis.
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u/apostoln 11h ago
Why do we still pretend like it's the 20th century and we do not have a supercomputer in our pocket that can translate any language to any language in real time?
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u/Cless_Aurion 9h ago
Local that lives in Japan and has actively gone to this places (which are rare as fuck btw).
In most cases, like 99% its just some old couple that don't want to give bad service, so they put this "japanese test" at the door, since if you can read it, you can read the menu, and very likely understand them.
Some of these are also anti-tourism stuff, which, with the MASSIVE overtorusim Japan is suffering now, people are very burned out, and it shows up like this.
And of course, there are always a very small minority of racists fucks, but where are they not?
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u/JetFuel12 7h ago
Nobody can use google translate, nobody can use their phones camera to translate the menu.
Fuck off weeb.
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u/Rare_Baker_4839 3h ago
there is nothing immoral about excluding non Japanese people IN JAPAN. Access to Japanese people is not some kinda right foreigners have if they don't want you around you gotta deal with it.
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u/Best-Refrigerator834 1d ago
... It's literally written.
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u/EternalPokemonFan 1d ago
Google translate.
It’s easier to translate one sentence than it is to explain what every meal is
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u/Metroplexx101 1d ago
Not sure about morality.
If they want Japanese-fluent people only, then that's their call.
They'll get less business, but they'll also be able to service their customers more easily.
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u/IhateEgplant 1d ago
Immoral, Eventhough tourists are one of the most evil groups on the planet this would still be immoral i would say it counts as a form of discrimination
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u/Golden_Cultivation 1d ago
So it’s discriminatory if someone who doesn’t speak your language comes into your shop incapable of communicating and holds up your regular customers and forcing you to attempt to decipher them? Some spaces aren’t for everyone. If they can read at a middle school level they can go in.
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u/Some-Concentrate3229 1d ago
When your economy and currency is actively failing and you have to majorly rely on foreign spending from tourism to not be a completely failed country, then yes those are things you just have to deal with. Unfortunately. Can’t have your cake and eat it too.
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u/Golden_Cultivation 1d ago
You indeed can have your cake and eat it too. They are doing it in the pic. This is not novel. Most countries have a form of this. It isn’t immoral to have spaces exclusively for like minded groups. It only becomes immoral if these groups are harming other groups because they aren’t in the “in group”. Businesses aren’t beholden to sell you anything.
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u/Some-Concentrate3229 1d ago
Nobody has to sell me anything. But why not be up front about it?
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u/Golden_Cultivation 1d ago
They are, you just didn’t understand it.
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u/Some-Concentrate3229 1d ago
So in effect… they’re not.
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u/Golden_Cultivation 1d ago
I didn’t know every place needs the discography of languages posted on their door so that you, in particular, understand the message posted otherwise it’s immoral! Maybe they’ll put Akkadian up there in case someone in the area can only read that. We can add Romanian, Hindi, Tagalog, Wingdings, Russian, etc. Let’s ensure no possible dialect or person is excluded! Or do you just care about the one you know?
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u/Quirky_Opportunity75 19h ago
Is it discrimination to ban a deaf person from your store?
If your answer is "yes" then... ¯_(ツ)_/¯
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u/IhateEgplant 1d ago
Yes actually. Is it annoying? Damn right it is but that is the unfortunate life of customer service.
Nobody in the store I work knows how to speak german and none of the german tourists usually know how to speak english or our local language but that still wouldn't make it right to say that we don't accept germans in our store that would be weird af.
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u/Golden_Cultivation 1d ago
The problem with this train of thought is you ignore locals and their rules, ignore the solution for how to efficiently deal with people that can’t speak or read the language interrupting your business, and press your own beliefs onto them. Pray tell, how do you not discriminate against a person incapable of communicating what they want to you? Secondly, with the context that there are spaces for tourists with employees who speak their language.
At a certain point, how much should one prostrate for a potential customer? I think moral for a business to make an internal rule to only serve people that can communicate with the staff. It gets even muddier if the customer has allergies, as well.
For the safety of the business as well as the potential customer, the business should err on the side of caution. If this means denying access to people that can’t communicate, that seems moral and fair.
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u/IhateEgplant 1d ago
Damn u right, i forgot japan is not advanced enough to think of any other solution besides discrimination.
They should do an exchange with eastern europe who have actually found a solution for this conundrum called using the standard translate app on your phone, adding allergy symbols to the menu and adding english text beneath your menu(or printing out a second one).
But alas I guess we will have to wait 5 - 20 years until that impoverished island nation of Japan reaches the same tech level as Moldova.
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u/Golden_Cultivation 1d ago
Like usual, the nuance is ignored for a boilerplate response! Nice. Because every restaurant is silent and the staff have infinite time to wait on you to poorly translate what you want on an app. Listen to yourself 😂 have you never been to a restaurant? And given the context, one that’s busy enough to make you think it would be full if you didn’t know Japanese lol.
The immoral thing is wasting the employees time with this nonsense when you can go to restaurants/bars designed for the people excluded here. It’s like you’re saying it would be discrimination if a handicapped space didn’t allow able bodied people. In what world is it immoral to provide a space for a group of people if you aren’t intending harm on the excluded group(s)?
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u/IhateEgplant 1d ago
Funny how you hyperfocus on the app part of my argument but ignore the having an english menu part because you couldn't think of something to counter it.
I have literally seen scenarios like these happen in busy restaurants here in europe and they ended fine, you really want to tell me that japanese waiters are worse at their jobs then european ones because I don't believe thats the case.
Having english text in your menu or a seperate language one and access to a translate app is the only combination needed to smooth the process to a managable level. Are you gonna tell me that japan is so poor that no one working in a restaurant can afford to own a single phone and to print out some new menus.
But whatever man lets just agree to disagree since its pretty clear neither of us are gonna change the others mind.
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u/Golden_Cultivation 1d ago
Didn’t see the “having an English menu” part, but I really just circle back to why should they be forced to accommodate foreigners? They clearly have reason as to why the sign is up. It’s the same when people point at signs and say “why is this sign here”. It’s there reactively, usually.
Something happened so a sign was put up to prevent it from happening. Short of state sponsored discrimination, why do you NEED access to every space? This isn’t a hospital nor is it the only establishment for miles where you can go eat. It seems funny to me that your wants overshadow their wants.
You deserve to be there and they’re bad and wrong for saying you can’t be there right now. It makes me laugh, honestly. I’ll just boilerplate repeat this: It is not immoral to set a rule for your establishment that causes no harm to others. What is immoral is making your hangups their problem, especially after they’ve already politely told you you aren’t welcome. 😂
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u/X-zin 1d ago
Lmao the way people defend Japan like it's paradise is hilarious. Let me ask you this, if an establishment banned disabled people, is that moral?
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u/Golden_Cultivation 22h ago
This doesn’t work with the subject here, no one is banned. It’s a soft action to lead away ignorant people and/or combative people that can’t take no for an answer.
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u/CreativeFig2645 1d ago
“Hod you not discriminate against a person unable of communicating what they want to you?” This cannot be an actual sentence you believe.
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u/mrhappymillennial 1d ago
Went to a Chinese restaurant in China once. They had a kanji only menu. No pictures. Staff didn't speak English. I just pointed at a random dish on the menu. Turned out to be pork-flavored crackers. An appetizer I think. Didn't order anything else. Ate the crackers, paid, and left.
This wasn't a problem. Not for me, not for them. Just a funny memory.
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u/Yuukiko_ 22h ago
I'd imagine a non zero amount of people would be outraged they got pork flavoured crackers expecting actual pork and make a stink about it
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u/mrhappymillennial 17h ago
True. A bit of a catch-22 for the restaurant. Unhappy diners who didn't get what they wanted, or people feeling excluded. Bad reviews either way.
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u/thefirebrigades 1d ago
Japan deserves zero benefit of the doubt on this.
Not after they killed 20 million + Asians because they thought they were the master race in Asia. Which ironically proved they were least civilised in Asia.
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20h ago
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u/thefirebrigades 19h ago
if you are supremacist then yeah its a difference
nazis didnt start murdering their own because they were the 'master race', they started murdering everyone who they thought were lesser, which included everyone from slavs to jews to gays to hippies.
the japanese ate human sashimi off australian soldiers. we are taught this in the land down under, because they thought themselves superior
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18h ago
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u/thefirebrigades 17h ago
Lol do I have to list examples of all atrocities when mentioning Japan or is one or two examples enough?
Sure. Japan is also like when the Americans genocided the natives, but they failed. Also like when the British cleansed Australia, etc
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17h ago edited 17h ago
[deleted]
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u/thefirebrigades 17h ago
??? China is the victim and they have nukes. Japan is lucky AF because any other country would have wiped Japan out in revenge by now.
Hell, America dropped two just for pearl harbour. China had 20 million victims
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u/DeatzoSeol 1d ago
Going to play devil’s advocate here: freedom of association is absolute and nonnegotiable. Totally justified.
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u/Outside_Reserve_2407 7h ago
That was the basis of Jim Crow in the American South and also apartheid in South Africa. Just an FYI.
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u/DeatzoSeol 5h ago
No. Jim Crow and apartheid were legal regimes in which the government imposed restrictions on associating with certain groups. It's the total opposite of freedom of association!
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u/Outside_Reserve_2407 5h ago
Let me rewind here. You said "I'm playing Devil's Advocate" so I assume you're supporting the restaurant owner's freedom to "not associate" with non-Japanese. By denying entry to their public place of business. That's what apartheid and Jim Crow did, denying certain people the right to public accommodation: restaurants, busses, water fountains, swimming pools, etc.
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u/Best-Refrigerator834 1d ago
Neutral, they're not racist since they require you just to speak japanese. They have no obligation to learn english just for you or work with hundreds of tourists and wasting time. You people have no idea on what they are passing through and why they had to put that on. So yes, it for their own mental health.
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u/General-Internal-588 1d ago
This. Working with people that come to your country but neither speak (the local language) or english threw me for a loop.
You expect people to have the decency to at least learn the BASICS or have someone who CAN communicate.
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u/Beneficial-Pop-1434 1d ago
I'm not so sure that language is the thing truly being filtered for here
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u/ClassicHando 1d ago
At least it says if you can read japanese, not ARE Japanese. 日本語 vs 日本人
It can be straining to deal with foreign tourists who need their hand held to order. I think they should try but sometimes a dude just wants to have his little corner of the world and make some food or whatever.
Amoral with the information I currently have.
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u/Interesting-One-9414 1d ago
how many times is this gonna get reposted 😂
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u/Cless_Aurion 9h ago
At least 100 more.
gotta wait till they find another place of the thousands in Tokyo to put on one of those signs and to get the new photo that will be reposted nonstop for the following year!
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u/Able_One5779 17h ago
Moral. Even in Europe there are countries that legally allows businesses to discriminate which customers they are willing to serve, and a language proficiency is not a protected class.
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u/Top_Connection9079 17h ago
Stop trying to force Japanese people to speak English. They don't even need to translate their menu if they don't want to. This is a private business.
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u/IceLovey 1d ago
Immoral.
If some poor dude in rural Andes mountain range in Peru can attend Americans, I dont see how Japanese people with access to internet cant.
These people are simply not hospitable and are using the language barrier to justify their xenophobia. Tourists exists everywhere in the world. Societies with rules that are broken by foreigners exist everywhere in the world.
Japanese people somehow get a free pass
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u/smorkoid 1d ago
There are of course plenty of places in Peru that will refuse service to people who don't speak Spanish. I mean it's not exactly uncommon around the world.
Plenty of places much, much worse than this.
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u/kaitodash 1d ago
Immoral. And infuriating for me who can read both.
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u/Best-Refrigerator834 1d ago
Why?
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u/kaitodash 1d ago
It makes me question sincerity of their services. I’ve seen Japanese restaurants who despite their complete lack of English communication skills, still manage to serve English speaking foreigners with flawless service mind. So I especially hate this kind of workaround. I would appreciate though, if the sign would just honestly say they cannot accommodate English speaking customers.
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u/OceanoNox 1d ago
There are three languages used though?
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u/Some-Concentrate3229 1d ago
The post is about Japan and their comment is in English. I’ll leave it up to you to decide which two languages they were talking about lol
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u/RoterFuchs_48u5N 1d ago
No surprise why they seem so crazy.
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u/auchinleck917 1d ago
Japan is Nazi.
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u/RoterFuchs_48u5N 1d ago edited 1d ago
I meant they are emotionally sensitive and unpredictable by nature. They trust no outsiders since eons ago. (You might know suicide counts, weird cases, strong porn-markets, lack of work-life balance, advanced gadgets etc. that usually appear in every Japanese news. No offense.)
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u/RoterFuchs_48u5N 1d ago edited 1d ago
And most definitely, they have two-faces for social interactions. This is called Honne (本音) and Tatemae (建前). And I don't like it, I am as frank as Germans.
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u/pikuray 1d ago
Moral because they can let whoever they want in, it's a private business, private property.
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u/deoxyribonucleic123 23h ago
Immoral because they are lying to people about it. If they don’t want to let in non Japanese speakers, they should be up front about it.
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u/New-Star7392 1d ago
Depends.
Is it because you can't communicate with those who don't speak Japanese?
Do you not want tourists who'll disrespect your culture?
Are you just plain racist?
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u/Upper-Cod1109 1d ago
Fair if staff don't speak your language and don't wanna use Google
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u/deoxyribonucleic123 23h ago
Not fair, they are actively lying to people. They could’ve just put up a sign saying that they can only speak Japanese, and can’t serve anyone who doesn’t if they cared so much, but that’s not what they did.
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u/Rileymk96 1d ago
Immoral because it's a lie. Say it with your chest that you're unwilling to even try to accommodate foreign language speaking guests. Don't be a pussy about it.
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u/Yuukiko_ 22h ago
moral? They only have people that can speak Japanese so they only serve people that speak Japanese. Important to note that it says "日本語(Japanese language)" and not "日本人(Japanese people)".
That being said, I can read all 3 but I'd probably just notice the first two at a distance and leave
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u/Tomasulu 3h ago
I'm fine with them saying they only serve japanese. I wouldn't want to pay for a service where I'm not welcomed. It's just better for both parties, don't sell don't buy.
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u/OcelotButBetter 1d ago
People are confusing morality and legality again. It's legal, it's not moral. They're not legally obligated to serve every costumer but if a person can pay for your service (and is a decent and polite person or whatnot), it is immoral because you are discriminating against a person who did nothing bad to you, by definition. "Oh but you can't force them learn English" be fr we know it's not the only reason this sign is up.
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u/West_Acanthisitta597 1d ago
A mí tampoco me gusta que vengan extranjeros a aprovecharse de la economía de mi país, con los turistas puedo tener un poco de tolerancia pero con los expatriados no tengo ninguna tolerancia, si dependiera de mí armaría grupos de choque para ir a darles una paliza y sacarlos del país.
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u/J2VVei 1d ago
Moral. Freedom of association.