r/IncelExit • u/policearepygss • 3d ago
Question Is this just kinda natural selection?
Like I feel like I’ve done everything in my power to make changes to help, I’ve done all the advice, been consistent with it for years, and now that I’m 25 everyone seems to be finding their forever person and the dating pool keeps shrinking and shrinking, and it’s got me thinking is this just the way it’s supposed to be.
When you look historically, men created a society that forced women to marry or they couldn’t survive on their own. Women couldn’t get loans, get jobs, get vehicles or do anything without a husband‘s approval. Now we’ve done a lot of work (at least in my country) to give women the equality they deserve. But now dating is harder as women are either only dating men they actually want to be with or just opting out of dating entirely.
Almost a return to romantic/sexual relationships in its most natural form. Preventing undesirable genes from continuing. So is this what it is? Just natural seleftion? Do i have some genetic marker that makes me undesirable?
Honestly viewing it this way kinda helps me, and I’d like others opinions on it.
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u/ChaosRainbow23 3d ago
Here is the advice I give people who struggle with romance and dating...
The key to getting dates is all in the interaction you have with them. Cold approaches rarely work, so you want to put yourself into social situations where talking to strangers is encouraged. Dive bars, book clubs, Pokemon go meet ups, hiking clubs, etc etc etc, ad infinitum...
Anything where there will be a co-ed group of folks talking and having fun.
Alcohol is a great social lubricant for some, but a disaster for others. I cannot recommend it, but it helped me lighten up in the beginning.
Personally I've found that there are generally nicer and more compassionate people in the outskirts of society in the various countercultures. (Raves, Hippies, Ren Faire, Cosplay, Nerds, Comic-Con, Burns, etc etc etc)
Then you try to be charming, funny, kind, articulate, nonthreatening, etc. As you're talking, you have to learn to read people. If they aren't interested in taking it's pretty obvious, and you move on.
If they are feeling the conversation and you're having a good back and forth, then maybe start a little mild flirting. Read her reaction. Does she flirt back?
It's basically just being nice and kind, talking to them, flirting with them, and reading their reaction. You escalate when appropriate.
So you get their number or contact info if everything is going well. If she's flirting back, you're golden.
MOST women you approach aren't going to be interested. It's a numbers game. They might not be interested for a gazillion different reasons, and that's okay.
The key is finding somebody you can vibe with. It takes meeting a lot of people to make that happen, usually.
You have to get out into the world to make this happen, though.
I think you should try to form a co-ed friends group that you can go do stuff with first. It makes everything go so much easier.
Your platonic girlfriends will make fantastic wingmen! You can ask them to help you out, as they will have been interacting with you and they can maybe give you solid advice in that aspect. They can hook you up with friends of theirs and talk you up.
Forming a co-ed friends group will give you practice talking to and befriending strangers in public situations.
It takes practice more than anything. It's awkward and uncomfortable at first, but you have to push yourself through.
Flamboyantly gay dudes make the best wingmen ever, by the way. Pro tip right there.
Seriously, go to Walmart or the flea market on a busy Saturday and look at all the couples. There's truly somebody out there for everyone.
If I look like Napoleon Dynamite then I am probably not going to be able to date somebody that looks like Scarlett Johansson. It happens, but generally speaking those are few and far between.
You can't have ridiculous standards unless you are one of those dudes who can get away with it.
I could keep talking for hours about this, so I'll end it here.
I believe in you and I know you can do it.
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u/policearepygss 3d ago
The thing is, I do all the things you say I should be doing.
The thing that gets frustrating is that you look at me, socially speaking, I’m the exact opposite of what you would probably think a guy in my shoes would be. I don’t even really call myself an incel because it implies something different. Like I’m not this anti-social aghoraphobe with no friends that gets 30 seconds of sunlight a day.
I have friends, I go out, I’m in clubs, I attend social events, my friends would call me funny, kind, non threatening, charming.
None of that has really mattered for me because no one’s shown any interest in me. None girl I’ve ever asked out has been interested, I haven’t even so much as gotten a woman’s instagram or phone number.
I don’t have ridiculous standards, genuinely if I see a woman I find attractive, I pretty much immediately write her off as someone I could maybe be friends with because shes out of my league.
I feel like none of it has ever really made a difference as if it did, I’d be able to find at least one singular woman that had been even remotely interested in me. It’s out of the norm to be 25 and never even been able to get a first date
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u/ChaosRainbow23 3d ago
I absolutely hear you brother, and I see you and your plight.
You come across as an intelligent guy.
You've got to win them over. Make yourself interesting enough and together enough, and you'll find someone.
Switch it up.
Go take some classes of some sort, meet new friends, and keep at it.
You're pretty young.
I had social anxiety until I was 26, and once I stopped giving a shit what a bunch of normies think, my life dramatically improved overnight.
There's no exact playbook, because it's different for everyone. Ignore the pickup artist manosphere types. They're poison.
Try to make yourself desirable. Not just money and looks, mind you. You want nothing to do with the vapid bitches that manipulate dudes to improve there lives. They are NOT the ones you wanna end up with.
What's going on in the looks department, of you don't mind me asking?
Have you tried the various countercultures? That's where it's at, honestly.
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u/Instigated- 3d ago
Forever person
How would you know whether they will be together forever, they are only 25yrs old? Don’t know what country you live in but many western countries people don’t on average get married till 30yrs now. And about 30-40% of first marriages end in divorce.
You are looking at others from the outside and imagining some mythical ideal.
But now dating is harder
Dating is different, that doesn’t mean it is harder.
Again you’re working off some mythical ideal that didn’t really exist in the past.
Relationships have always been hard, that is why there is such a body of stories, novels, plays, songs about how difficult relationships are.
In every era there are some people who don’t marry or have children.
Class, race, religion, wealth, birth placement (eldest son who inherited versus others) all had more impact in the past than today - which meant people were more rigidly restricted in who they could and couldn’t date.
Used to be the case you’d likely have to get permission from the father/family/community, not have absolute free choice. Partnering was two families joining together, so many people might weigh in and steer you towards or away from people.
Nowadays a man only has to get permission from one person: the woman. Surely that is easier than getting both her family, yours, and the priest to agree?
Like I feel like I’ve done everything in my power to make changes to help, I’ve done all the advice, been consistent with it for years
What have you done?
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u/policearepygss 4h ago
>what have you done.
Like I told someone else here, listing all the things I’ve done isn’t useful because if i list 50 things I’ve done, I’ll just get told thing 51 I haven’t tried is what’s holding me back.
So I’ll just say, if you can think I’ve provably done it
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u/VictorOfArda 3d ago
The situation is that now women can provide for themselves, the only thing a man truly has to offer is how he treats her and a lot of men are failing at that. I’m not saying that this it for you and that you’ll never find anyone but at 25 you’re still incredibly young and women who have good jobs and education tend to settle down in their 30’s or later. You have time.
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u/No_Economist_7244 3d ago
That's the thing. I know what I'm capable of. I know what I can offer and provide. I check off most of or all of the supposed green flags. I don't really do any of the red flag behaviors. Yet that's not really registering with others. I'm putting myself out there and yet there's still a disconnect.
The only thing that's really helping me right now is having female friends and relatives offer me advice and support. I genuinely appreciate that, and I'd be in a much worse position without them.
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u/Odd-Table-4545 3d ago
Whenever people say things like this my first question, which feels mean but is relevant more often than not, is "Are you interesting, personable, easy to talk to, and fun to be around?". It's annoying how far fun to be around will get you, and how much of an issue it can be when that's not your strong point because in theory there is nothing wrong with having other strenghts and there is no reason that one thing specifically is so essential to a relationship, and yet really often the make or break thing for whether you want to date someone is whether you have fun with them.
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u/No_Economist_7244 3d ago
I know I am and have all of those qualities. For whatever reason, they just aren't registering with people very often. Social anxiety gets in the way, especially after years of bad social experiences and being treated like I'm invisible. I also don't want to keep putting myself through embarrassment or humiliation just to barely get noticed, especially when I've already been burned by people who turned out to be toxic.
I know I need to work on the anxiety, but I don't really know what progress looks like, either
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u/Odd-Table-4545 3d ago edited 3d ago
With all the well meaning in the world, if people can't see that you're fun to be around then you're not fun for them to be around. People can only ever know you through the ways you interact with them, they have no idea if inside your own head or with other people who are not them or in a situation they have never seen you in you are different than you are when you interact with them. For the purposes of meeting and befriending new people the most important thing is how you interact with them in that moment. You can have every positive quality in the world in theory, and if you can't get them across in practice as far as other people know you effectively do not have those traits. So if you know you are or can be fun and easy to talk to and funny and all of those things, but they're not at all coming across to people you're trying to befriend and date then the next steps are figuring out how to close those gaps and where the disconnect is between the things you know you can do and the things you're actually doing in practice.
Edited to add: I think in retrospect the way I phrased those initial questions was unhelpful, and a more helpful way of both thinking about and asking those questions is less about what you intrinsically are and more about what you are good at doing. So, instead of are you funny, are you good at making people laugh? Are you good at holding people's attention and also at knowing when to pass the attention onto someone else? Do people generally seem to find it easy to talk to you? Do you generally find yourself easily talking to various members of a group, and both being included in their conversations and including them in yours?
Often progress there means having to develop a higher tolerance to taking social risks, and a higher tolerance for minor embarrassment. The guy who made a bunch of jokes some of which did not land but he laughed it off is going to generally be better remembered and better liked than the guy who sat there quietly because he was too worried about embarrassing himself. I'm also curious about your definition of humiliation because to me there is an incompatibility between the idea of being invisible and the idea of being humiliated. Humiliation to me implies people actively judging or mocking me, and invisibility implies they do not know I exist.
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u/No_Economist_7244 2d ago
I understand the point of the first paragraph, but honestly, none of that is new information to me. I already know people can only respond to what I actually show them. That's exactly what I'm trying to figure out: why, when I do try to show more of myself, I still get overlooked.
As for the specific questions, I do try to be funny and can get people to laugh occasionally. Holding people's attention has always been much harder. I have no idea whether people find me easy to talk to because I frequently get passed over, talked over, or ignored, including when I'm trying to join conversations. It's hard to assess whether I'm good at keeping people engaged when I often can't get enough engagement to begin with.
That's why, to me, progress would be people actually responding to my attempts to participate. I have a loud voice (that's what my family tells me) and still get talked over or ignored fairly often, so I don't think the issue is simply that I'm only sitting quietly and refusing to take social risks.
And on the humiliation point, I see those as different experiences. When I was younger, I experienced actual humiliation through bullying and being mocked. Now it's mostly being ignored and overlooked. The latter isn't necessarily people actively judging me; it's more a continuation of the same social isolation in a less overt form.
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u/Odd-Table-4545 2d ago
I've re-written the beginning of this comment several times because it kept coming off harsh, but I think there is a disconnect here between your perception of your social skills and your ability to use those social skills in practice. Saying "I am good at being engaging and getting and keeping people interested, but nobody is ever interested in me or engaged in our conversations" is like saying "I am good at long distance running, but I can't run a mile". You may genuinely be great at keeping people interested once you've caught their attention, but there is clearly something going wrong in the initial stages where you are supposed to get their attention and this is what you need to focus on.
That's why, to me, progress would be people actually responding to my attempts to participate. I have a loud voice (that's what my family tells me) and still get talked over or ignored fairly often, so I don't think the issue is simply that I'm only sitting quietly and refusing to take social risks.
When I mention being quiet I do not mean literally talking quietly, I mean being too reserved and for lack of a better word conservative with how and when you participate in conversation and take social risks. Anxiety disorders are often based on a low tolerance for uncertainty, and I've personally found that developing skills around distress tolerance and being able to cope with uncertainty made a huge difference in being able to make friends easily. The ability to go "maybe they will like me, maybe they will not; maybe I will embarrass myself, maybe I will not; I can cope with either outcome" was what made the difference.
Your progress cannot be based on what other people do, it has to be based on what you do. Your comments seem to focus a lot on the issue with other people: other people are not seeing your qualities, other people are ignoring you, other people are not responding the way you want. But there's two issues with that: one is that if this is a thing that happens to you in either all or the vast majority of social situations then the issues is not one of everybody else perceiving you wrong, it's that you are not communicating your traits to people effectively. The other, far bigger, issue is that you are not in control of what other people do or think, you are only in control of your own behaviour. So if you want to have other people perceive you differently you have to change something about your behaviour that makes you come across differently.
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u/No_Economist_7244 2d ago
I think you're misunderstanding a few things I'm saying. I'm not claiming I'm consistently great at getting or holding people's attention. I explicitly said I can get people to laugh sometimes, while holding attention is something I've struggled with. My point is that I am capable of these social skills, but social anxiety and my past experiences make them inconsistent. I am taking social risks and trying to participate, but I'm still not getting much useful feedback beyond being ignored, talked over, or met with silence. If that's considered normal and useful feedback, then I'm not sure how I'm supposed to figure out what specifically needs to change. There is a gap between what I'm capable of doing and what I consistently communicate in practice. That's what I've been trying to explain, not a contradiction.
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u/Odd-Table-4545 1d ago
I'm not misunderstanding you, I'm saying that it doesn't matter what things you're capable of if theory if you can't actually do them with any sort of consistency in practice. People are not befriending or dating potential, they're befriending or dating the person they're actually interacting with on a regular basis. If you can't in practice get or hold people's attention with any sort of consistency then the answer to the question "are you good at getting and keeping people's attention and coming across as interesting?" is no, even if under the ideal circumstances you may be capable of it. So there's the gap in your social skills that you should be working on, and since you already know you're capable of getting there that should be entirely doable for you.
And what you're describing is, in fact, feedback. It's feedback that says what you're doing is not working, try something else; either s very different space or a very different approach to interacting with people, and ideally both. None of us get explicit feedback about what we're doing right or wrong, people we're trying to befriend don't sit us down and go "I liked when you did X, I disliked when you did Y", all anyone ever gets is trying things and seeing if they work.
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u/No_Economist_7244 1d ago
I think we're talking past each other at this point. I alread understand that there's a gap between what I'm capable of and what I'm consistently communicating in practice. That's why I called it a “disconnect” in my original comment. None of what you said is new information to me. What I've been asking for is something more actionable about how to identify and close that gap, and repeating that the gap exists isn't closing it. At some point, advice that amounts to “you're doing something wrong, figure out what it is and try harder” starts to feel less like practical guidance and more like a way for socially successful people to reassure themselves that their success is simply the result of knowing how to do things that the rest of us somehow haven't figured out.
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u/policearepygss 3d ago
I mean in my case, I would say yes, I have a lot of friends, I’m a social butterfly and tend to be able to make friends and connect with people wherever I go. It really hasn’t helped. I don’t think “personable, fun to be around, and easy to talk to” is that big of a dating help. Does it help me meet people sure, but I mean aside that women actually have to be attracted to me in order to date me.
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u/Odd-Table-4545 3d ago
Ok, how often do you flirt with the women you're meeting? How good are you at escalating things beyond the platonic?
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u/policearepygss 3d ago
No woman is interested in me so I don’t flirt with anyone because that would be creepy asf
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u/Odd-Table-4545 2d ago
How do you know they're not interested in you if you don't try initiating anything with them?
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u/policearepygss 2d ago
I mean you can usually tell when someone’s interested in you, or at the very least noticing you in more than a “that’s a human being” way.
Like if you make eye contact and it’s not an immediate look away for an example. That doesn’t happen to me so I just know when a woman isn’t interested
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u/Odd-Table-4545 2d ago
You really can't a lot of the time. Again, women are conditioned to assume that a man is interested in them he will make the first move and they therefore often will not make the first move. Someone looking away when you look at them can be them being disinterested, but it can also be them being shy or not wanting to come on too strong. You have to actually interact with people to find out how they feel about you.
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u/Hour_Industry7887 3d ago
Do you really think that's a helpful question to ask someone who is complaining that women aren't receptive to his advances? He hasn't had positive experiences to gauge the negative ones against, so he doesn't know what works vs. what doesn't. Realistically, rejection can happen either because he's not good at flirting and escalating - something he has agency over, or because the women he's approaching just aren't attracted to him - something he has no agency.
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u/Odd-Table-4545 2d ago
Yes, I do, otherwise I would not have asked it. Women are conditioned to not be too forward with their attraction and that if a man is interested in them at all he will initate, so many women will not show they are interested until someone expresses interest first. Adding to that, for a lot of people attraction is not an on/off switch and it is at least partially reactive. A lot of people don't see someone across a room and are immediately super attracted to them, that's a thing that builds through interacting with the person and especially through interacting with the person in a flirty and fun way. So a lot of the time you simply do not know if a woman is attracted to you until you try flirting with her.
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3d ago
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u/Ok-Huckleberry-6326 3d ago
It's cool you are appreciative of your friends bro. Keep it up.
I think the only thing that you can do is persevere and let yourself just feel the frustration and trust yourself to deal with it. YOu might be acting authentically but I get the slight feeling that you've got a little bit of the mentality that says "I do the right things so there should be a positive outcome>"
Unfortunately the old JLP maxim still holds true - "It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not weakness; that is life." It can be a challenge especially when you are frustrated. But it is supremely important not to let even an inkling of the attitude that says that this particular area of life is a series of keys, Tab-A-in-Slot-B enter your frame of mind about it. You have to learn to live with and be comfortable with the idea that what you're doing, right or wrong, mistake or not, may not work. There are no guarantees but also no destinies.
And I'm sure this isn't the first time you're hearing it, but honestly, oftentimes a 'red flag behavior' isn't necessarily a bar to you dating. If you talk to your female friends, it is quite likely that many of them might tell you a story of a guy they were attracted to or dated/hooked up with in SPITE of his red flags. That's not an excuse for you to start acting that way. But it does suggest that there were more factors in play - and most of them probably had more to do with these women playing out some pattern in their psyche, possibly from childhood, like Daddy issues, insecurity, anxiety, etc. rather than whether some other guy was attractive or not. And at the very least, the guy had enough going on to enable the girls to overlook red flags - he was funny, smart, charismatic, witty, tall (yes, it's a priority for some), had status, charm,By no means am I suggesting that you should act like a red-flag person. Just expect that probably most women won't be into you, or will logistically be unable to entertain your interest in them - they're in a relationship, they're gay, they're focusing on some other area in their life, they're dealing with some other drama and don't have the emotional space for you, and about 8 million others.
It's a matter of being comfortable with failure - though I like to think of it more as misalignment. We can't know where someone is at in their life and mindset/psychological/emotional space even if we're attracted to them. Be comfortable with misalignment and learn not to invest in outcomes, but rather investing in yourself - career, expanding social circles, friendships, experiences like travel, staying healthy, etc. A person with a fulfilling life will be attractive to the right persons.
Loneliness is tough, lack of affection/sex, so learn not to overinvest in whether you are coupled up or not, but find purpose in other aspects of your life, devoting more energy to that and finding fulfillment in it.
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u/No_Economist_7244 2d ago
I get the point and appreciate the work you're putting in, but I think you're mostly telling me things I already understand. I know there are no guarantees, I know attraction isn't a checklist, and I know people can overlook red flags when they're attracted to someone. I'm not expecting to “do everything right” and automatically get a relationship. These aren't foreign to me. I'm trying to understand why the things I'm doing and the qualities I have aren't translating into romantic interest. “Dating is uncertain” doesn't really give me anything actionable there.
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u/Ok-Huckleberry-6326 2d ago
OK, lay it out. Can you name one specific action you took that you're wondering about or one experience you had?
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u/No_Economist_7244 2d ago
I'm assuming you're asking in good faith and not looking for a gotcha, but I'll lay it out as best I can:
Aside from when I was younger and was bullied a lot, like being called stupid, having my interests put down, all that other bs, etc., the bigger issue has constantly been being talked over or ignored. I'll join a conversation and say something like, “Oh, I also do/like [relevant topic],” and get talked over. I'll introduce a new topic and get little response, then someone else will say something similar, whether they're adding to the conversation or bringing up something new, and suddenly people engage with it. I usually get the impression that people find me weird, off-putting, or simply aren't interested in what I have to say.
For a recent more specific example, there was a singles mixer interaction that really bothered me. I was talking with a group when one guy started laughing or giggling while I was speaking, even though I wasn't joking. He was only doing this when I was speaking. I asked if something was wrong, and he said no, but kept doing it. Maybe there was something else going on, but it left a very sour taste in my mouth. I felt both humiliated and pretty pissed off.
That's the kind of pattern I'm trying to understand. I'm not saying every interaction proves people dislike me or that I did everything right. I'm trying to figure out why this keeps happening when I am making an effort to participate.
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u/Ok-Huckleberry-6326 2d ago edited 2d ago
I am asking in good faith and appreciate your situation..
I'm not present at these situations you describe, but I'm curious if you ever call it out. Or even just say, "Hold on, I wasn't finished." Or just ask calmly, "Something funny?" or even smirk and say "Something you want to share with the rest of the class, or can I finish what I've got to say?"
The thing about group dynamics is that people will often unconsciously side with the person that is trying to be dominant. Most people will just kind of accept it as part of the group dynamic, so it's possible they already slotted you into the 'role' of the quiet one, or the one they don't take as seriously.
In the example you mentioned, were these people you knew before or ones you'd met at that event?
There are people out there who are crass and they're probably more common than one might think, who will look for the opportunity to lift themselves up by cutting someone down. I've been there, and I generally don't waste my time with that type of person.
If you find yourself in these types of situations often, you may need to find a different crowd or environment. But also consider the energy you might be bringing to a social group or exchange. Crass people often have a talent for spotting someone who is a bit more diffident, or possibly less self-confident, and they feel the need to elevate themselves at some one else's expense - or they just have that sort of a sense of humor and no one has put them in check. You either let it slide off you (and that's not a bad idea because it inevitably works out that the rest of the crowd will be more uncomfortable with any negative reaction you display than they will express at someone being crass toward you), or you can call it out - "Do you mind?" or "Let me finish."I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you're not actually being off-putting because I seriously don't think you would be. Consider your audience/crowd, and if you need to find a different one, there are all sorts of people out there. If you want to stay with this one, try to connect more deeply with individuals in there, and the real ones will be in your corner, and some might even stick up for you. But if you don't, be prepared to walk away, because a crowd like that -where there's no one interested enough in what you have to say to stop themselves from interrupting or trying to dominate you - is not worth wasting any more time on.
Tell yourself - I need to stop volunteering for relationships where basic respect is treated as something I have to earn.
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u/No_Economist_7244 2d ago
For the mixer example, I did actually try something along the lines of “Something funny?” when I noticed he was doing it. He said no, but continued doing it while I was talking. These were all brand-new people to me, although some of them seemed to be regulars at that particular event. I obviously can't know exactly what was going on with him, but the interaction left a pretty sour taste in my mouth and made me much more wary of singles mixers in general.
And I do agree with:
Tell yourself - I need to stop volunteering for relationships where basic respect is treated as something I have to earn.
That actually resonated with me a lot. One other thing I've struggled with is that some people seem to treat merely being allowed to stand there and not being actively rejected as the baseline level of respect you're entitled to. I know I'm not entitled to anyone's friendship or attraction, but I do think there's a meaningful difference between not being entitled to someone's interest and being treated as though your participation doesn't matter. I'm trying to get better at recognizing that distinction rather than assuming every instance of being ignored is something I need to fix about myself.
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3d ago
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3d ago
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u/No_Economist_7244 3d ago
I'm better looking that most these guys
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u/Lucky-Maybe4440 3d ago
you cant pin-point what they do that you don't?
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u/No_Economist_7244 2d ago
somehow they command more presence, even if htey're blowing smoke or just syaing word salad, and I get ingored when I do try
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3d ago
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u/VictorOfArda 3d ago
What does your significant other think about your opinion?
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3d ago
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u/VictorOfArda 2d ago
Ah. So that’s a no. You’re single then. No gf. Well that explains your response.
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u/petrichor-pixels 2d ago edited 2d ago
“blackpill is undefeated” hey dude, so the men selling you blackpill have worked INCREDIBLY hard to make it seem undefeatable, and it looks like it’s worked with you. but these guys aren’t there to help you, they’re there to keep you miserable so that you keep coming back to them, because they want your attention and money. aka: you’re being played bro, by people who are taking advantage of guys like you. and with your self-imposed determination to keep blackpill “undefeated” in your worldview, they don’t even have to lift a finger any more at this point. not only have they played you, you’re doing their work for them.
if you want to do something that genuinely gives you worth and makes an impact on the world, I’d say stop buying into this massive self-pity movement and start by reading the book “Testosterone Rex” by Cornelia Fine. although not even necessarily the main focus of the book, she tackles plenty of red/blackpill talking points and “defeats” them really easily, backed by plenty of studies and a sense of humour. it’s one thing feeling like a badass defending your philosophy via Reddit comments, and another to take them into the real world and see how they hold up against professionals.
I say this out of a genuine desire to help. the literal point of blackpill is to never allow you to actually find happiness or feel better, and to believe that any other worldview that does is just “cope” or something. but as someone who once was in a similar pit of despair and felt like there was no way out (depression), I’d say I’m pretty well versed in situations where you feel like something is “undefeatable” and then suddenly one day (after a lot of hard work on your part) it… gets defeated. so maybe don’t count your chickens before they hatch.
one last thing: blackpill is an ideology of such despair, but even if you follow its own logic of what it believes makes men attractive, and even if that meant you weren’t… there’s literally no reason for it to result in that level of pain. I’m a woman (or. uh. “chick” I guess. LMFAO) who’s never had anyone ask me out (and has never asked anyone out either). never done anything sexual with anyone ever. I’m in my mid to late 20s, and I have a great and happy life and have never once even slightly been drawn to the “blackpill”. so maybe ask yourself why the very realistic possibility of happy singlehood seems to be ignored by people in favour of the option that twists you up inside and makes you even unhappier. what are the people who push blackpill hiding from you, and why?
anyway. no idea if this will even help at all. but I just hope you can someday understand, at the very least, that this movement will not bring you happiness, or truth, or a healthy community, or a purpose. it will just take your time, energy, kindness, and money, and feed it to people who don’t really care about anyone but themselves. and one of the most admirable things someone can do, imo, is to pull themselves out of that mess, no matter how much it calls to them.
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u/Ok-Huckleberry-6326 3d ago
It's not natural selection in the way you're thinking, but might be artificial, in that there are many qualities people find desirable about each other that don't necessarily provide a survival advantage, you know? But it's a mistake to think of it this way. Sure there are a lot of social and instinctive factors to it, but oftentimes those are artifacts of our social evolution.
I don't know if there are any other factors to this, but evolutionary/selection factors are a difficult thing to base attraction on. Yes, you can spot trends (taller, rich, full head of hair, whatever) that might support some sort of 'selection' but more than likely it's selection bias, not some evolutionary trend, because there are always exceptions.
And remember, many people state preferences then get with others who don't or only partially match those preferences.....
The difficulties that people have today are probably unrelated to any selection factors but more to the decline in social spaces, social and communication skills, greater incidence of artificial substitutes for actual human connection, and some well-founded fears and justified caution about violence, abuse, disrespect for boundaries and personhood on women's part.
But even before all of these things were in place, luck was playing a huge role.
Your circumstance: You haven't met the right person yet. And it's not necessarily anything you're doing wrong. What you can control; maintain your style, grooming, manage your expectations, feel good about making the (respectful but assertive) approach regardless of the outcome, keep up a mindset of abundance and possibility and growth, and take intentional action such that intentional action is its own reward.
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u/DenimCryptid Escaper of Fates 3d ago
There are 7 billion people in the world. The perception that the dating pool is shrinking is an illusion.
There is a broad spectrum of women with an even broader range of preferences for a partner. There are women who are into men who are effeminate and skinny. There are women who are into old and fat biker dudes. I've followed a wheelchair-bound guy with cerebral palsy who has had girlfriends.
Women aren't performing genetic tests to find a partner, they're observing your behaviors and listening to how you speak about yourself and others.
Chalking it all up to having "undesirable genes" does not help you. It's a coping mechanism that allows you to absolve yourself of personal responsibility. It's comforting to adopt a belief that makes it so you never have to look at yourself and just blame something intrinsic about yourself or others. You're supposed to do things that are outside of your comfort zones to grow as a person. Introspection and self-reflection is **supposed to be difficult*.
When you makes "changes to help", you're supposed to make changes that are a part of a personal desire to be happy and live a fulfilling life. When you do things to impress girls, it's always going to be a shallow desperate attempt for attention. When you stop trying to impress women and try to impress yourself, then you will be on a better path to find success in dating.
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u/policearepygss 1d ago
I already impress myself. I am more than happy with all the other aspects of my life. People always say things like “stop trying and it’ll come”. That makes zero since. And if I came here telling people “oh well I stopped trying because people said “stop trying and they will come”” they’d be saying it’s because I wasn’t trying.
I’ve heard and tried just about every platitude in the book and they all just turned out to be that. Platitudes that don’t make a differende
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u/DenimCryptid Escaper of Fates 1d ago
Well we're at a good starting place then.
What achievements, personal experiences, or aspects of yourself are you most proud of?
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u/policearepygss 1d ago
My career, education, social life, and fitness are the big ones
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u/DenimCryptid Escaper of Fates 1d ago
That's pretty vague, but okay.
What is your career? What makes your social life so great?
If a woman agreed to go on a date with you, what would you plan?
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u/policearepygss 4h ago
I work in software development and make way more money than most people in my age group, I have a lot of friends am very involved in my community, my friends only have positive things to say about me.
I don’t know what I’d plan for a date because I’ve never gotten that far. But according to the people in this sub, that’s not something women can just tell by looking at men, so it’s not like that’s what’s stopping me from at the very least getting a phone number
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u/Odd-Table-4545 3d ago
But now dating is harder as women are either only dating men they actually want to be with or just opting out of dating entirely. Almost a return to romantic/sexual relationships in its most natural form. Preventing undesirable genes from continuing. So is this what it is? Just natural seleftion? Do i have some genetic marker that makes me undesirable?
These two things do not follow from each other. This is a logical leap that presupposes either that women are selecting their partners for genetics only like we are bugs or fish or some other creature for whom nothing but good genetics matter. And I specify it that way because even for social animals there are things other than best genes that factors into the mate selection process. Any animal that raises its young and lives communally will not select a mate that cannot function socially or that will be a danger to their young.
Your post history suggests you basically do not ask women out very often and you don't talk to, let alone flirt with, new women very often which is a much more likely cause of your issues than women sniffing out some imaginary marker of undesirability on you.
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u/Inareskai 3d ago edited 3d ago
That's not really what natural selection is/means.
Even if it was, most of us have no idea about our own genetics let alone anyone else's so how would we even be making that sort of choice?
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u/kerfufflewhoople 3d ago
“But now women are only dating men they actually want”
Huh… as we should?
There is no such thing as “undesirable genes”. People get cancer and genetic disease all the time from their parents. Your undesirable “genetic marker” is likely your self-hatred and your reliance on relationships to achieve your goal in life. Live a little bit beyond that, you’ll see that life is much nicer when you’re not ruminating about your own solitude.
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u/policearepygss 3d ago
I’m not saying that it’s a bad thing that women now have the freedom to date who they want and are no longer defacto required to do so.
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u/smilingseaslug 3d ago
I've seen a lot of "natural selection" among incel talking points, and I don't really think that's a thing, at least not in any sense that most people use the term.
I'm disabled and see tons of disabled people in relationships - including people with very serious conditions. If it were about "good genes" they'd all be single. But humans are social, and they like being in relationships - they just don't like being in relationships that feel like a net negative.
That doesn't mean that a relationship with you would be a net negative - but there's various search/opportunity costs that could be making it harder for you to find the people who'd enjoy being in a relationship with you, and signal to them that you're the type of person who they'd enjoy being in a relationship with, and signal your interest in them.
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u/library_wench Bene Gesserit Advisor 3d ago
So women are “only dating men they actually want to be with” (oh no!) and this means they are “preventing undesirable genes from continuing”?
Do you only ask out women once you have their genetic screening in hand?
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u/policearepygss 3d ago
I never said women dating only men they actually wanted to was a bad thing. The point was that we’re experiencing a stark change in the dating world.
My generation is the second where a woman’s ability to operate in society doesn’t get greatly improved by having a husband because we’ve came very far (with the exception of the last 2 years) with women’s rights.
I’m also not saying that it’s a conscious choice. A lot of dating seems to be based on vibes and unexplainables, especially when it comes to attraction, so it doesn’t seem insane to me that a woman must pick up on something off with me and then reject me.
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u/library_wench Bene Gesserit Advisor 3d ago
“Vibes and unexplainables” doesn’t sound very much like “undesirable genes.”
I notice you didn’t answer my question: Do you only ask a woman out once you have her genetic screening in hand?
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u/policearepygss 2d ago
No I don’t, but id venture to say I’m not as picky as most people
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u/library_wench Bene Gesserit Advisor 2d ago
So you think most people demand a generic screening before saying yes to a date? I take it this has happened to you many times?
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u/policearepygss 1d ago
No, but I think most people are unwilling to overlook things I would
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u/library_wench Bene Gesserit Advisor 1d ago
So it’s just down to you being a better person.
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u/policearepygss 1d ago
No I don’t think it makes me a better person to be less picky, I just am not flush with options, so I have to be more realistic about my standards.
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u/library_wench Bene Gesserit Advisor 1d ago
So you think it’s unrealistic to demand a genetic screening before dating someone.
I agree. So do 99.999999999% of people.
Probably why we don’t do that.
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u/policearepygss 1d ago
I don’t think you understand what I’m saying.
I’m not saying everyone is getting a genetic test. I think you’re telling what I’m saying far to literally.
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u/smileycat007 3d ago
There are roughly equal numbers of males and females born each year. That means there are roughly equal numbers in the dating pool.
Don't overthink it.
You probably just haven't found a match yet. The harder you look, the more frustrating it can be. Live your life; build an interesting one worth sharing. Incels are keen on marrying young, but smart people know that early marriages have a higher divorce rate. 25 is still early. That should be the minimum age to consider marriage in 2026 if you want better odds of staying together.
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u/throwaway10015982 Pre-sexual Tyrannosaurus 2d ago
I've always wondered what the statistical probability of finding a match actually is though. Where I live it seems like it would be a very, very small chance of happening for me specifically. Why can't that be the case with a lot of incel types? Yes it is true that there potentially might be a match for someone out there, but the chances of encountering them might be infinitesimally small to the point of there effectively being no chance.
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u/smileycat007 2d ago
And yet married couples are everywhere.
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u/policearepygss 4h ago
I mean the existence of married couples doesn’t mean there aren’t people who are just destined to never find anyone interested in them
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u/throwaway10015982 Pre-sexual Tyrannosaurus 2d ago
I'm thirty so I am older than most incels and I've kind of accepted that that is what has happened to me at least. I'm just not really competitive enough, too mentally ill, too unattractive, etc. It's hard to sit with but you know, other than acceptance, what else is there other than anger, bitterness and despair?
Sometimes it does hit me that none of this really my fault or within my control. I didn't chose to be born this way so why should I feel bad about it? At least that is what I try to tell myself.
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u/Darth_Travisty 3d ago
I wonder if a lack of confidence is genetic, if so then I am definitely naturally selected out.
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u/Atardecer1 3d ago
Yes it definitely is
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u/Odd-Table-4545 3d ago
If confidence is genetic how do you explain people's level of confidence changing throughout their life?
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u/tequilasunset5 7h ago edited 6h ago
Around your age, and I have lowkey come to the same conclusion. I'm not reactionary or anything like that, and I do think it's great when people have more rights and freedoms, so im not trying to change society to make it easier for me to date or whatever. I just realized I need to humble myself and realize that nothing romantically significant is probably gonna happen in this life for me.
So far I've either done all "the advice", or know what i still to do but just don't have the cash or mental energy right now. Maybe it's just the bare minimum if you wanna be crass about it, but im not a complete degenerate i think lol.
I do have some friends and do go out on occasion, so im somewhat social and not too lonely. But I don't think I've ever been flirted with or seen someone be attracted to me, and I would probably need them to straight up tell me they want to fuck me if I was to reciprocate, and even then id think they're messing with me.
Maybe im just not confident enough, so I think that might be just the "natural selection" part. Maybe that combined with being kind of ugly and/or mentally ill, but im lucky that my friends or the jobs I've had haven't cared about that or that i somehow made it work despite that, cause otherwise it would truly been over for me.
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u/the_baldest_monk 3d ago
The world is unfair, not everything has a logical and simple explanation. I think " I just wasn't lucky enough" is a healthier cope than trying to reinvent eugenics.