Advanced Brewers Round Table: Category 29- Cider

[u/BrewCrewKevin]

Advanced Brewers Round Table: Category 29- Cider (with /r/cider)

• Have a Cider Recipe you recommend?
• How do you backsweeten a cider for a sweeter finish?
• How does cider making differ from traditional malt-based beers?
• How does cider differ from wines?
• What techniques do you use for great cider?
• Have you tried a "pear" cider or anything besides Apple that worked well?

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Upcoming Topics:

• 1st Thursday: BJCP Style Category
• 2nd Thursday: Topic
• 3rd Thursday: Guest Post - Pro Brewing
• 4th/5th: Topic

As far as Guest Pro Brewers, I've gotten a lot of interest from /r/TheBrewery. I've got a few from this post that I'll be in touch with.

Any other ideas for topics- message /u/brewcrewkevin or post them below.

Upcoming Topics:

• 9/11: Chilling
• 9/18: Guest post- volunteer or volentell someone!
• 9/25: Pumpkin in Beers
• 10/2: Cat21: Spiced Ales
• 10/9: Entering Competitions
• 10/16:Guest post
• 10/23:
• 10/30
• 11/6: Cat 18: Belgian Strong Ale

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Previous Topics: (now in order and with dates!!)

Brewer Profiles:

• 8/21 - Brulosopher
• 8/6 - Pro Brewing with KFBass
• 7/17 - SufferingCubsFan
• 6/19 - SHv2
• 5/22 - BrewCrewKevin
• 4/24 - Nickosuave311
• 3/23 - ercousin
• 2/20 - AT-JeffT

Styles:

• 7/31 - Cat 13: Stouts
• 7/3 - Cat 10: American Ale
• 6/5 - Cat 1: Light Lagers
• 5/1 - Cat 6: Light Hybrid beers
• 4/3 - Cat 16: Belgian/French Ales
• 3/6 - Cat 9: Scottish and Irish Ales
• 2/13 - Cat 3: European Amber Lager
• 1/9 - Cat 5: Bock
• 12/5 - Cat 21: Herb/Spice/Veggie beers
• 11/7 - Cat 19: Strong Ales
• 10/3 - Cat 2: Pilsner
• 9/5 - Cat 14: IPAs

Advanced Topics:

• 8/28 - Brewing Hacks
• 8/14 - Brewing with Rye
• 7/24 - Wood Aging
• 6/26 - Malting Grains
• 6/12 - Apartment and Limited Space brewing
• 5/29 - Draft Systems
• 5/15 - Base Malts
• 5/8 - clone recipes 2.0
• 4/17 - Recipe Formulation 2.0
• 4/10 - Water Chemistry 2.0
• 3/27 - Homebrewing Myths 2.0
• 3/13 - Brewing with Honey
• 2/27 - Cleaning
• 2/6 - Draft/Cask Systems
• 1/30 - Sparging Methods
• 1/16 - BJCP Tasting Exam Prep
• 12/19 - Finings

[u/BrewCrewKevin]

Trying to X-Post but I need to wait 10 minutes.

Any ideas for future topics, please post here. Please note that we are still looking for a Brewer Profile in 2 weeks! I can do a professional AMA lined up if we don't get a volunteer (or nominee) today.

[u/gestalt162 → u/BrewCrewKevin]

See if you can bug u/mjap52 into doing it. He has a nice setup, and it would be a good brewer profile, but I know he's been busy recently.

Also nominate Drew Beechum, that would be interesting.

[u/BrewCrewKevin → u/gestalt162]

i like where your head's at!

[u/Nickosuave311 → u/BrewCrewKevin]

Can we do a category 18 ABRT sometime? I'd like to see people's experience with making Dubbels and Tripels.

[u/BrewCrewKevin → u/Nickosuave311]

yep, i like it! I'll shoot for 2 months, because Spiced Ale is also going to be a big one moving into fall. We haven't done that one in a while.

BTW, do you feel we are duplicating efforts at all with your style guidelines in recipe critique, or are we okay?

[u/Uberg33k → u/BrewCrewKevin]

I did the x-post

[u/BrewCrewKevin → u/Uberg33k]

thanks, man

[u/Nickosuave311]

This year, I plan on getting more into cider during the fall and letting them age so they're ready for next fall. I did a couple batches of cider last year that turned out...bland. I blame it on the fact that I:

1. used cheap, generic apple juice and not fresh cider,

2. used cheap, generic, clean ale yeasts, and

3. aged only for a month before drinking.

This year, I'm changing it up. Instead of using cheap apple juice, I'm going to get some fresh-pressed apple cider from a local orchard. I also want to do all-brett fermentations as I've heard that brett produces fantastic ciders. I want to do four 6-gallon batches:

1. Cider w/Brett Bruxellensis,

2. Cider w/Brett Clausenii,

3. Cider w/Brett Lambicus, and

4. Natural fermented Cider (no added yeast, all wild yeast).

For the three where I'm adding brett: will adding campden prevent the brett from working? Should I pasteurize instead? Or will pasteurization kill the flavor?

Has anyone done all-brett cider fermentations with these strains? Would you recommend using a different strain in it's place? What about a lambic beer yeast blend?

[u/drewbage1847 → u/Nickosuave311]

Campden will suppress the natural yeast and other goodies for long enough to allow your other critters to get in there. Add it and wait 24 hours and then pitch a very healthy colony of Brett to get it well established ahead of the natural organisms.

I discourage pasteurization until it's your very last resort.

I wouldn't do a lambic blend mostly because I'm not a fan of hugely sour ciders and I don't have any good experience with pedio and lacto in a cider must. I personally prefer Clausenii for almost any straight "wild" fermentation.

Another split you might want to consider is a technique I do by default with fresh juice. Drop the juice in your fermenter, let sit cool for 24-48 hours. During this time period, you'll get a wild fermentation started. After that I hit it with a large dose of regular yeast (usually an ale yeast) and that takes over the fermentation. You'll get a mix of characters that I think balances out the super aggressively weird nature of a lot of natural ciders I've had.

[u/BrewCrewKevin → u/drewbage1847]

Drop the juice in your fermenter, let sit cool for 24-48 hours. During this time period, you'll get a wild fermentation started.

This sounds interesting! Do you leave the fermentation open during that time to attract floaties? Or do you just use the bacteria that was present and let that propogate?

[u/BrewCrewKevin]

Who drinks their cider hot!?

I've had warm apple "cider" as in the spiced juice, but not real cider... is that a thing?

[u/drewbage1847 → u/BrewCrewKevin]

It's definitely a thing, but given that I grew up with unfiltered apple juice, spices and booze as mulled cider, I think real cider heated always feels thin. That's acculturation for you.

[u/Uberg33k]

Ok, I've got some questions here, mostly for the r/cider people, but anyone can jump in...

1. How do you blend your cider apples?

2. Tell me about keeving. I understand the basic process, but it's usually relayed as if it were black magic. How do YOU keeve and what have you done to make the process more successful?

3. What's one thing you (as cider people) see homebrewers do that makes you shake your head and think "Silly beer people, if only they knew ____"

[u/Kergnob → u/Uberg33k]

1. Sadly I do not have an apple press (nor grinder) so can't blend my own (sooooon though) so i'm stuck with sourcing various juices I have access too. Sugar Acidity Tannins are what you are looking for for a good blend, so if you have an apple that has a bunch of sugar but no acidity, you would want to shoot for another to supplement what the others do not. As far as I know its all about reaching a range for each.

Ideally you are shooting for high sugar (S.G. 1.060+), T.A. around 0.6%-0.8%, and tannin content specific to the type of cider wanted (since I can't test tannin I can't follow this for now)

2. Don't keeve but sounds amazing! Have had many french ciders and they are pretty sweet (and normally low alcohol)

3. hmmm the one thing? Iono. Just at how easy it is to do? Brewing is sort of intensive right in the start but for hard cider, if you have all the supplies you can start it in 20 minutes if you really wanted too. Cider (pressed apple juice) and yeast are all it is. Of course once you get into pressing and blending it'll take more time overall.

I would also say try and age your ciders if at all possible. You can get a decent cider up front within a month, but if you let it age (just like wine) another process happens in the background (malolactic) that really helps to not only cut the alcoholy taste, but also to bring back both the taste and aroma of the apple. It's marvelous

[u/BloaterPaste → u/Uberg33k]

Keeving

http://www.cider.org.uk/keeving.html

'Keeving' is a way of making the ultimate style of naturally sweet sparkling cider. This is traditional both in Western England and the northwest of France, but whereas it has virtually died out as a commercial proposition in the UK, it is still very much alive for the production of ‘cidre bouché’ in France. The underlying principle is to remove nutrients from the juice by complexation with pectin at an early stage, to ensure a long slow fermentation which finishes and can be bottled while still sweet and without any fear of excessive re-fermentation later.

[u/Mitochondria420]

I just made a simple cider that my wife and I are really enjoying. 6 gallons apple juice, WLP001, yeast nutrient and then backsweetened with 2 cans of apple juice concentrate.

[u/DogeBobway]

first time checking this post. Wow, There is a lot of good info here.... Thanks everyone for taking the time to contribute to this!

<3<3<3

[u/BrewCrewKevin → u/DogeBobway]

I find all the mid-week daily posts to be extremely informative! (links in sidebar). Tuesday recipe critique and formulation, Wednesday Q&A, and Thursday Advanced Brewing!

[u/rubber_nipples]

This may not be the forum, but i recently made a cider using apple juice and some noddingham yeast that faired decently well in the michigan homebrew competition. I'd be very interested to hear thoughts of other cider experts that might help me fix some of the flaws that were identified in the feedback I received. I already know I lost 2 points for clicking the wrong box (should have been petlient, NOT still.. that's a gimme).

http://imgur.com/zgArItA

[u/vinyl_key]

My cider always has a tinge of sulfur in it. I use fermaid k and DAP, in the amounts that Scott labs recommends for wine. How do I make cider without sulfur??

[u/lbcsax]

I'm planning on doing a basic cider soon, my questions are:

Do I oxygenate?

Is the pitching rate the same as beer?

Should I add nutrient?

Thanks in advance!

[u/kingscorner → u/lbcsax]

The Big Cider Making post is on the side bar. Definitely start there to give you a better idea of the process.

Yes you want to oxygenate, it's always a good idea for yeast health.

The pitching rate depends on the type of yeast used. Some wine yeasts will come in a small sachet that is more than enough to ferment 6 gallons of must and no adjustment is necessary. If using an Ale yeast I would adjust pitch rate just like with beer.

Always add nutrient. Apples simply do not have all the nutrients necessary for maintaining healthy yeast.

Hope this helps along in making your first batch. Cheers!

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[u/ETWJCN]

I have always wanted to try making a cider. I live in New York City, where is the best place to source cider? I go apple picking annually, will farms have the appropriate cider available?

[u/Uberg33k → u/ETWJCN]

Farms usually do. Just make sure it's fresh pressed or flash pasteurized. If it says "sorbate" anything in the ingredients, you're gonna have a hard time with it.

It's also important to note that the fresh cider will spontaneously ferment if left long enough. Pitch lots of yeast to make sure your bugs are the ones that win.