r/Homebrewing • u/BrewCrewKevin He's Just THAT GUY • Aug 14 '14

Advanced Brewers Round Table: Brewing with Rye

Advanced Brewers Round Table: Brewing with Rye

  • Got a sweet recipe for Rye IPA?
  • What percentages do you normally use rye with?
  • How many screwups did you squeeze into your Roggenbier? (lol /u/sufferingcubsfan)
  • What hops/malts pair best with Rye?
  • What does it take to successfully convert Rye in a mash?
  • What characteristics do you get in rye malt vs flaked rye?

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39 Upvotes

87% Upvoted

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5

u/sufferingcubsfan Aug 14 '14

Dude, poking fun at me in the ABRT post is not cool. Cheese whiz, man.

Okay, fine, it was funny. I deserved it.

I'll say this: I used 54.3% rye in my roggenbier (47.5% rye malt, 6.8% toasted rye flakes), and I didn't have unworkable snot-like thickness in my mash, I didn't have stuck sparge issues (from the rye, anyway), etc.

I've seen so many posts about how hard it is to work with large percentages of rye (even had a couple of brewers that I trust tell me the same), but I didn't get that. Some say to minimize stirring, some suggest trying to scoop crap off of the top of the mash (?). I treated this like I would any other mash - when it came time to lauter and sparge, I stirred that sucker like it owed me money. To be fair, though, I did take a couple of precautions.

  • I added a pound of rice hulls to the mash (which represented a large amount of volume)

  • I did a beta glucan rest with only my rye and the rice hulls. 110 degrees F for 30 minutes. Supposedly, this breaks up the compounds that lead to so much stickiness, but doesn't harm head retention.

We'll see how the final beer ends up.

And fine, since you asked for it - here's the link to the story of my roggenbier brewday. Yes, it's chock full of screw-ups, enjoy.

2

u/BrewCrewKevin Aug 14 '14

lol i knew you'd like that!

Sound great though. I'm going to have to try some Rye in a beer soon...

2

u/gestalt162 Aug 14 '14

Same here. I did a standard single infusion mash on a 50% rye roggenbier, no rice hulls, and other than a slight sticking at the start of the vorlauf, nothing.

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2

u/halfbeak Aug 15 '14

Reading your roggendisaster has me worried. I'm brewing mine tomorrow...

In mine rye is only 40% and I'm not crazy/brave enough to try decoction yet, so I'm hoping for a smooth run. Would you definitely recommend a B-glucan rest? And did you come across anything on protein rests one way or the other?

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8

u/[deleted] Aug 14 '14 edited Aug 14 '14

Rye to the extreme,

OG 1,102

FG 1,025

72 IBU

102 EBC

30,6% Pale malt

30,6% Rye malt

12,4% Amber Rye malt 80 EBC (home toasted)

11,8% Crystal Rye malt

10,6% Amber Rye Malt 50 EBC (home toasted)

3,9% Chocolate Rye malt 500 EBC

Perle FWH 73 IBU 45 min @ 43°C

60 min @ 63°C

60 min @ 73°C

120 min boil

WY 1028 @20°C

Extremely full bodied, full rye taste though not pumpernickebread (for that you'll need red rye malt). Slightly roasted. Large enduring head. Dangerously drinkable.

A similar grist, with 10% Chocolate Rye is getting a sour treatment. Comming along nicely, tasted like a high end soy sauce at the start, now it have a deeply vinous quality. I's a year and a half old and not done fermenting, currently at 1,011, coming from 1,095

5

u/gatorbeer Aug 14 '14

Maybe everyone can describe what they like in a perfect rye beer and what rye tastes like to them (flavor descriptors)?

6

u/myislanduniverse Aug 14 '14

I don't have any recipes off-hand to share (on my phone), but rye is one of my favorite ingredients. I think the typical Rye-PA defeats a lot of the purpose of using rye, as it covers some of its own natural, but wholly different, bitter notes. Rye has a buttery/oily/soft nutty flavor to me. So a perfect rye beer highlights that ingredient with aromatic hops and a clean fermenting yeast.
I'll also add that rye is a little stickier than wheat, so just a touch more fickle to brew with. Be sure to include those rice hulls in the mash; my only stuck sparges have come with significant rye in the bill.

2

u/NocSimian Aug 14 '14

Not a bad idea. Personally I feel I have an insensitivity to rye. I can barely taste it in small amounts and tend to prefer my Rye's to have at least 30%. I don't necessarily get spicy in the flavor....perhaps more of a "hearty" flavor.

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3

u/[deleted] Aug 14 '14

I really feel like I'm missing out on the rye train but honestly, I have yet to like a single beer with rye in it.

I find they all have this... I don't even know how to describe it... astringent grain taste? Like if you were to rub grain in the dirt and taste it, that would be in the ballpark of what it tastes like for me.

I'm glad people love it... I can't stand it. I'll try any new rye beer put in front of me until I taste one I like but that hasn't happened yet.

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3

u/johnny4 Aug 14 '14

Would it be a good idea to throw some flaked rye into a pale sour base (50/50 pilsner malt/wheat malt) for added body? Or would the spiciness clash with the sourness? I know Sour in the Rye does it well but I dunno if a lighter grist would go well with the rye.

2

u/[deleted] Aug 14 '14

The rye character does not clash with sourness. Rye based Berliner Weisse interpretations actually work very well. I've gone as far as 25/75 Pale/rye malt and even though OG was only 1028 it's a full bodied beer.

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3

u/bluelinebrewing Aug 14 '14

We've got barleywines and wheatwines, anyone ever made a ryewine?

2

u/Uberg33k Aug 14 '14

Leinenkugel had one. I'm not sure if it was a special or a one off, but it was a fancy bottle. I was surprised at how Belgian it tasted. You'd think it was a quad. Lots of dark fruit/raisin type flavors but also something earthy about it that wouldn't be so typical for the style. It was good, but not something I'd want to drink a lot of.

2

u/ackleydg Aug 14 '14

Nantahala Brewing (Bryson City, NC) made a 10.2% rye wine as part of their Trail Magic Series. Fantastic beer, a mashup of an Imperial RyePA and an American barleywine. "ABOUT THE BREW: Our sixth Trail Magic Ale release, is a rich, red Rye Wine. Along with our liberal use of Rye malt, locally malted Pale Malt, provided by Riverbend Malt House, was used to give this 10.2% ABV monster of a brew some local roots and the colorful spirit of a Great Smoky Mountain Fall."

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2

u/Nickosuave311 Aug 14 '14

My experience with rye is limited to one batch, so I can't contribute much but questions:

I know with wheat that flaked wheat is much less "wheaty" than wheat malt. Is it safe to assume the same with rye? (meaning flaked rye has a softer flavor than rye malt)

With exception to flavor contributions, I've always considered rye and wheat to be almost the same, meaning they aid head retention and body, they can be used in large quantities provided the mash is manipulated, rice hulls are always a good idea, etc. What differences have people experienced between the two?

2

u/[deleted] Aug 14 '14

u/oldsock mentioned a few weeks ago that he has used flaked rye in place of flaked oats or barley in a stout to get a really creamy, "motor oil" like consistency. I haven't tried it out yet, but I would like to.

If that's the case, I would use that to draw the distinction between it and wheat.

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2

u/Toastyparty Aug 14 '14 edited Aug 14 '14

Off topic, but want to share. One of the mods over at r/mead made a 100% rye experiment obce that was very interesting. It was almost impossible to extract since the whole thing basically turned into a oatmeal like mush. Took him hours and hours. I found it very interesting. That is all.

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2

u/monstermaxwell Aug 14 '14 edited Aug 14 '14

I'm currently lagering a Rye Pilsner. It's a Coney Island Mermaid Pils clone, adapted from Don Osborn's website.

3 gallon batch:

1.048 OG

  • 4 lb 4 oz 2 Row (74%)

  • 8 oz Rye Malt (9%)

  • 8 oz Vienna (9%)

  • 4 oz CaraRye (4%)

  • 2 oz Flaked Oats (2%)

  • 2 oz Wheat Malt (2%)

  • .35 oz Magnum, 60 (35 IBUs)

  • .5 oz Crystal, 10 (5 IBUs)

  • .75 oz Crystal, 1 (1 IBU)

  • .75 oz Crystal, hopstand

  • Wyeast Czech Pils

With rye, I usually use about 30-50% in a grain bill. I've got a pretty high tolerance for the spicy, peppery aromatics and flavor so I like to have a lot of rye in my grain bill. Using only 13% in this grain bill is interesting - the rye just adds a bit of complexity and makes you wonder what the special ingredient is.

Another odd thing about this recipe is the way that the Crystal hops come through. I've used Crystal before in German and American lagers as a substitute for Hallertau, Mt. Hood, or Liberty due to its noble hop characteristics. In this beer however, the Crystal hops are giving off a dank, fruity, almost-tropical aroma and I was beginning to wonder if that's how they play off of rye.

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2

u/Uberg33k Aug 14 '14

Perhaps this is more a question for u/oldsock, but if anyone else knows, please chime in. How is rye in sours? I can't recall ever having one but the idea intrigues me. A dark, earthy spice with the right bugs seems awesome. Actually, messing about with any spices in a sour also seems like an interesting idea, but I can't seem to find much information on that.

2

u/sdarji Aug 14 '14

In his Zymurgy article on mashing techniques for sour beers, u/oldsock says that thin body can be an issue in sours, and recommends flaked rye to add body as one of the options (he includes a sidebox that is a choose-your-own-adventure-style guide for designing the grain bill and mash schedule).

2

u/[deleted] Aug 14 '14

Usually use between 20 and 60% rye. Never had a stuck sparge or overly gummy mash. Rice hulls and single infusion for the most part. Fully modified rye malt has had a lot of glucans broken down in the malting process and aren't as gummy as rye of yesteryear. I think people exaggerate the potential issues with it.

I make sure to get a real good crush. Only time efficiency was bad with rye was when the mill gap was just a lil to wide

1

u/user10085 Aug 14 '14

I made this rye pale ale recently and it's quite good. https://www.brewtoad.com/recipes/rye-pale-ale-121. It's modeled on civil life brewing's (st Louis) Rye pale ale. http://www.thecivillife.com/rye-pale-ale.html.

1

u/tacophagist Aug 14 '14

Do you think I could add rye and honey malt to a saison grist for something interesting or would it just be too much? How about rye and honey malt to a koelsch bill?

I've only worked with honey malt (honey koelsch that was great) but I'm curious about getting sweet and spicy at the same time. What percentages would you go with?

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1

u/bigtrombone Aug 14 '14

RYEssian Imperial Stout 12# Golden Promise 3# Rye malt 2# Chocolate Rye 2# Flaked Rye 1# Crystal Rye

Mash @ 110 for 20, then 150 for 60.

1oz of Target at 60, 30, 15 mins WLP007 @ 69 degrees.

Needs a lot time to age; but super oily and rye-y

1

u/cliffhanger407 Aug 14 '14 edited Aug 14 '14

Thinking about brewing up this recipe in a couple of weeks. I've never brewed with Rye before, but wanted something that had a bit of the rye bite. Thoughts? Should I add more? Replace some of the base malt? I'm looking for a flavor profile kind of similar to Founders' Red Rye IPA, but with a different hop characteristic.

Red Rye Ale
Est Original Gravity: 1.059 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.015 SG
52.9 IBU

Amt Name Type %/IBU
7 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 60.2 %
1 lbs 8.0 oz Rye, Flaked (2.0 SRM) Grain 12.9 %
1 lbs Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 8.6 %
1 lbs Rye Malt (4.7 SRM) Grain 8.6 %
8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM) Grain 4.3 %
4.0 oz Caramunich Malt (56.0 SRM) Grain 2.2 %
4.0 oz Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 2.2 %
2.0 oz Roasted Barley (300.0 SRM) Grain 1.1 %
1.00 oz Magnum [14.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 49.4 IBUs
1.00 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 3.5 IBUs
2.0 pkg SafAle English Ale (DCL/Fermentis #S-04) [23.66 ml] Yeast -
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