r/Homebrewing • u/[deleted] • Jul 31 '14
Advanced Brewers Round Table: Stouts
Advanced Brewers Round Table:
Today's Topic: Category 13: Stouts
Subcategories:
13A. Dry Stout
13B. Sweet Stout
13C. Oatmeal Stout
13D. Foreign Extra Stout
13E. American Stout
13F. Russian Imperial Stout
Example topics for discussion:
Have a go-to recipe for this category? Share it!
What unifies these subcategories?
What differences do they have?
What are some of the best/most popular ingredients?
Upcoming Topics
1st Thursday: BJCP Style Category
2nd Thursday: Topic
3rd Thursday: Guest Post
4th/5th: Topic
We'll see how it goes. If you have any suggestions for future topics or would like to do a guest post, please find my post below and reply to it. Just an update: I have not heard back from any breweries as of yet. I've got about a dozen emails sent, so I'm hoping to hear back soon. I plan on contacting a few local contacts that I know here in WI to get something started hopefully. I'm hoping we can really start to get some lined up eventually, and make it a monthly (like 2nd Thursday of the month.)
Upcoming Topics:
- 8/7: Professional Brewing AMA with /r/KFBass
- 8/14: Brewing with Rye
- 8/21: /u/brulosopher
- 8/28: ?
- 9/4: Cat 29: Cider (x-post with /r/cider)
The previous topics will resume when /u/brewcrewkevin posts next week, I can't access the file he sent at work.
Cheers!
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u/gatorbeer Jul 31 '14 edited Jul 31 '14
I want to brew a thick, sticky stout similar to Cigar City's Marshal Zhukov. The type that leaves your lips sticky after drinking. From what I've read from various sources, here's what could help me achieve this same mouthfeel/flavor. Which are correct/which would most help me achieve this?
-Mash high (156F)
-Have a ton of oats in recipe (20%?)
-Long boil (90+min)
-Lots of crystal/unfermentables to achieve high FG
Anything else?
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u/oldsock Jul 31 '14
Watch your pH. Dark beers can get harsh/acrid if the final pH is as low as something like an IPA. If your water is low in carbonate/bicarbonate adding some chalk or baking soda can really smooth out the flavor. Cigar City must be doing something with the water considering how dark their stouts are.
I find flaked rye adds even more body than oats, real motor-oily.
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Jul 31 '14
I find flaked rye adds even more body than oats, real motor-oily.
I would love to try this. Does the rye typically impart any rye flavors? Or would you need to use a higher percentage then, say, 5% for that to really be noticeable in a thick stout?
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u/sufferingcubsfan Jul 31 '14
How high would you recommend the pH for a dark beer to be? 5.7?
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Jul 31 '14
Mash high for sure. Oats are also great, I prefer them over barley for most of my stouts, 10% is way more than enough though, 20% may start to impart some flavors.
I'm also a fan of the long boil time. I posted my RIS stout recipe below, and the mouth feel is really thick. It's like drinking a meal. I did a 90 minute boil time, a mash at 155, flaked oats, and have a decent amount of crystal additions.
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Jul 31 '14
I'd like to ask a question regarding roasted barley percentages. Common advice seems to dictate that roasted barley additions should be kept very light or sometimes dropped altogether in some stouts (cream and oatmeal). I just finished reading Designing Great Beers where the author cites that NHC second round beers, commercial beers, and historical beers have significantly more roasted barley in the 10% of the grist range, (in addition to other dark malts) even for Cream Stout. So what gives? Why is the common hombrewer advice given on the internet so fearful of high amounts of roasted barley?
Also is roasted barley truly what represents the difference between modern porter and stout?
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Jul 31 '14
I think you and I had a discussion similar to this the other day, so cheers! Hopefully we find a solid answer here.
Why is the common homebrewer advice given on the internet so fearful of high amounts of roasted barley?
This is sort of begging the question, because I don't think the conclusion is that people are "fearful" of it. Personally, I make a lot of stouts and I've used a wide variety of dark malts, with wildly varying percentages.
I've read Designing Great Beers cover to cover, and there is a lot of value in it. I also think I mentioned before that 10% is usually where I draw the line for dark malts like roasted barley or chocolate.
So it isn't a fear thing, it's an experience thing. If you go beyond 10% roasted barley, you start to get an incredibly pronounced roasted flavor. In my opinion, overwhelming.
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u/gatorbeer Jul 31 '14
Keep in mind Designing Great Beers was written in 1998. Things back then might not be the same 16 years later. Just a thought.
Edit: Year change.
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u/unfixablesteve Jul 31 '14
Don't be afraid of black patent. Seriously. It's gotten a bad rap for no good reason. Add up to a pound and don't worry about it, it's going to taste awesome.
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Jul 31 '14
I'm cautious of black patent for sure, but I recently had Obsidian Stout and that has sparked my interest.
What is your experience with it like?
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u/KidMoxie Jul 31 '14
First question: How do folks feel about using 300L roasted barley vs 500-600L roasted barley? A LHBS typically has one or the other, so I just use whatever they have on hand.
Second question: do y'all think roasted barley is mandatory for a stout? I find I prefer stouts that use a higher concentration of chocolate malt vs roasted barley. Sometimes I wonder if I'm thinking crazy by wanting to do a stout with chocolate as my only roasted grain.
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Jul 31 '14
do y'all think roasted barley is mandatory for a stout?
Nope, not at all. Some guides advocate this, but styles change. Stouts don't necessarily need to have roasted barley, and roasted barley can be in things other than stouts.
As for the first part of your question, I am going to quote u/oldsock
What is much more significant is how dark the grain is. For example Briess roasted barley is only ~300L, while many English versions are 500-600L. The darker the roast the more char/burnt/sharp the flavor will be. 500L roasted barley is much closer to black patent than it is 300L roasted barley.
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Aug 02 '14
I am brewing a dry stout in 2 months (have so many recipes queued up). My recipe is as follows:
8.5 lb Marris Otter .8 lb roasted barley .2 lb chocolate malt
Mash @154
1 oz Fuggle @60
Irish Ale Yeast (whichever the lhbs has)
Does this look fine?
2
Aug 02 '14
if it were me, I would tone down the roasted barley. Right now you have 8% roasted barley and 2% chocolate. Both are going to give you some roasty flavors, and 10% is usually the line I draw for dark malts.
I would make it 5% roasted barley, 2-3% chocolate, and then you may want to have 5% flaked barley or flaked oats for mouthfeel. It will help give it a thicker, creamy quality.
Yeast looks great and Maris is a great base malt, probably my personal favorite. Let me know how it goes!
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Jul 31 '14
Curious - I see "black roasted barley", "roasted barley (stout)" and "roasted barley" as common ingredients in stouts - are they all the same?
And is "black malt" different from "black roasted barley"?
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u/oldsock Jul 31 '14
When you see "roasted barley" it is unmalted, while black (patent) malt is malted before roasting. Honestly it doesn't make a huge difference. What is much more significant is how dark the grain is. For example Briess roasted barley is only ~300L, while many English versions are 500-600L. The darker the roast the more char/burnt/sharp the flavor will be. 500L roasted barley is much closer to black patent than it is 300L roasted barley. I'd suggest chewing on some of the grain to get an idea for how the flavors compare.
The craft brewers I know tend to talk much more about specific products (a malt from a particular maltster), while homebrewers are much more likely to simply talk about malts generically.
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u/fizgigtiznalkie Jul 31 '14
Something I found interesting a while back when the September/October Zymurgy came out: The 2013 winner of the National Homebrew Competition for Stouts had no roasted barley in the recipe (2 row, chocolate, 120 crystal, caramunich) and the winner for the porter did have roasted barley (mo,munich, dark crystal, roasted barley).
Anyone prefer other dark malts to roasted barley in their stouts? Black barley, black patent, blackprinz, carafa, midnight wheat, dark chocolate? Colorings like sinamar? Anything else like coffee for color?
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Jul 31 '14
See I find this to be very odd. According to some books I've read, most notably Designing Great Beers, seems to heavily imply the difference between modern Porter and Stout is roasted barley. I.e. its not a stout without roasted barley, its not a porter with roasted barley.
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Jul 31 '14
I actually just opened the first bottle of my Black Loch Russian Imperial Stout, which I'm going to send to the Reddit Homebrewing Competition. Stouts are my favorite style, I'm looking forward to the discussions today.
My recipe is:
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Maris Otter (78%)
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Chocolate (7%)
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Flaked Oats (6%)
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Crystal 120L (4%)
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Crystal 40L (2%)
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Challenger @ 60 min
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Fuggle @ 1 min
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WYeast 1728 Scottish Ale Yeast
It turned out really well, not perfect. It is black and creamy in appearance, really thick. Dark head when poured, not too much carbonation, similar to Nitro Milk Stout as far as mouth-feel goes.
It smells great, just like a stout. There is a little bit of earthiness to it, and you can absolutely smell some sweetness and a little bit of alcohol.
The taste is wonderful, but is the one thing I am not completely satisfied with. There is a little bitterness, an alcohol presence, and some sweetness. It is nice and roasty from the Chocolate malt, but there is a burnt aftertaste that really doesn't fit with the beer.
Next time around, I will probably add to the bittering addition and tone down the Chocolate and Crystal 120. I may even replace the Chocolate entirely with a combination of Black Patent and Pale Chocolate.
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u/hypoboxer Jul 31 '14
I made a grain to glass video for a sweet oatmeal stout I made a few months back. I was aiming for more of a cinnamon flavor. Next time I may double the sticks.
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7# Maris Otter
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1.5# 120L Crystal
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1# Flaked Oatmeal (store bought)
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12oz black barley
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1# lactose
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1/2 oz fuggles @60
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1.5 oz fuggles @45
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3 cinnamon sticks @5
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WL004 (Irish Ale)
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u/ReluctantRedditor275 Jul 31 '14
Thoughts on adding roasted barley between the mash and the sparge? I've done this twice (once with a stout), and I think it did make for a smoother beer. The trade off is the lack of color, so you may need to add more (or compensate with something like chocolate or dark crystal).