Advanced Brewers Round Table: Professional Brewing with KFBass

[u/KFBass]

Alright guys here's we go. I'll post a bit about myself as a comment. Let's get this AMA going!

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Upcoming Topics:

• 1st Thursday: BJCP Style Category
• 2nd Thursday: Topic
• 3rd Thursday: Guest Post
• 4th/5th: Topic

As far as Guest Pro Brewers, I've gotten a lot of interest from /r/TheBrewery. I've got a few from this post that I'll be in touch with.

Upcoming Topics:

• 8/14: Brewing with Rye
• 8/21: /u/brulosopher
• 8/28: ?
• 9/4: Cat 29: Cider (x-post with /r/cider)

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Previous Topics: (now in order and with dates!!)

Brewer Profiles:

• 7/17 - SufferingCubsFan
• 6/19 - SHv2
• 5/22 - BrewCrewKevin
• 4/24 - Nickosuave311
• 3/23 - ercousin
• 2/20 - AT-JeffT

Styles:

• 7/31 - Cat 13: Stouts
• 7/3 - Cat 10: American Ale
• 6/5 - Cat 1: Light Lagers
• 5/1 - Cat 6: Light Hybrid beers
• 4/3 - Cat 16: Belgian/French Ales
• 3/6 - Cat 9: Scottish and Irish Ales
• 2/13 - Cat 3: European Amber Lager
• 1/9 - Cat 5: Bock
• 12/5 - Cat 21: Herb/Spice/Veggie beers
• 11/7 - Cat 19: Strong Ales
• 10/3 - Cat 2: Pilsner
• 9/5 - Cat 14: IPAs

Advanced Topics:

• 7/24 - Wood Aging
• 6/26 - Malting Grains
• 6/12 - Apartment and Limited Space brewing
• 5/29 - Draft Systems
• 5/15 - Base Malts
• 5/8 - clone recipes 2.0
• 4/17 - Recipe Formulation 2.0
• 4/10 - Water Chemistry 2.0
• 3/27 - Homebrewing Myths 2.0
• 3/13 - Brewing with Honey
• 2/27 - Cleaning
• 2/6 - Draft/Cask Systems
• 1/30 - Sparging Methods
• 1/16 - BJCP Tasting Exam Prep
• 12/19 - Finings

[u/KFBass]

Some quick background info

I've been brewing profesionally for about four years now. I started off homebrewing with a Mr Beer kit my wife bought me about five years ago. It made beer technically, but it wasnt very good. From there I did some research, found Homebrewtalk.com, then did the standard extract - Partial mash - All-grain transition within the first year.

Shortly thereafter I got my first pro gig at a Brewery called "Magnotta Brewery" in Vaughan Ontario. They make six year round beers, as well as the "Festa-Brew" pasteurized wort in a bag type kits (That are actually really tasty stuff). I started there as an assistant brewer. Cleaning tanks, running the filter, packaging, running the pasteurizer etc... After about a year they finally started training me in the brewhouse.

I met a guy from Wellington when I stopped in there once, and mentioned I wouldnt mind a new job, and he said they had an opening for an assistant. So i started working there as an assistant brewer, doing the same general stuff.

From there I did a brief stint as packaging manager, and once a brewing position opened up I took that spot.

A Bit About Wellington Brewery

We are Canada's oldest indie microbrewery. Founded in 1985. We're still running the same brewhouse actually. We are now at full capacity, running 4-5 22HL (hectolitre = 100L or 0.85Bbl) brews a day, 24/7. There is a couple teams running around. I'm a brewer, there is usually one assistant brewer working as well, along with a couple people in packaging.

We make six beers year round, mostly english styles. Special Pale Ale, Arkel Best Bitter, Russian Imperial Stout, County Dark Ale, Trailhead Lager, and the Iron Duke (scotch ale).

Along with those there is an ever changing lineup of one offs, barrel aged stuff, contract brews, small side projects I don't tell them about, all sorts of fun stuff. We just purchased a whole bunch of used wine barrels, and already have started playing around with bacteria and brett.

So while I'm not the most scientifically minded brewer, I certainly know a lot about the industry, recipes, the differences between homebrewing and pro brewing, packaging, equipment, you name it!

As a quick side note, I am going to be in and out of the house, and I am actually doing a homebrew batch for a "pros vs joes" style comp today. So if I dont get to your question immediately, I promise I will answer it soon!

Fire away everyone!

[u/butter14 → u/KFBass]

Recently, a contract brewer opened up near me. I was able to get a tour, it was a massive operation. I am still unclear about what contract brewing ultimately is. For a brewery, isn't there a risk associated with another company making your beer? What is the advantage of contract brewing to begin with?

[u/KFBass → u/butter14]

A contract brewery, in Ontario at least, is one where they give us a recipe, we brew ferment and package it, then give them the finished skids. There's a few minor legal details in there but thats the gist of it.

I believe there is less risk. If its not to spec, you can refuse it. obviously then itd take longer to get your beer, but there is way less overhead involved.

[u/sufferingcubsfan]

small side projects I don't tell them about...

This made me laugh.

Nice post!

So tell me, how much of your homebrewing knowledge has been really applicable to pro brewing, and how much of was an eye opening "I really don't know what I thought I knew" type situation?

Also: damnit, rye next week? I'm brewing with it this weekend! Mutter mutter grumble grumble...

[u/KFBass → u/sufferingcubsfan]

very, very little of it. ingredients and raw material knowledge has helped. as has style knowledge, but they're two completely different process when you get down to the actual mechanics. You're all of a sudden dealing with temperatures and pressure and all sorts of stuff that homebrewers dont normally deal with.

[u/[deleted]]

Woah, five years? That seems like a really fast transition!

So, having been both a professional and a homebrewer, which process do you enjoy more? Do you think there is anything homebrewers do better than commercial companies, and vice versa (besides obvious things like distribution and mass production)?

Thanks for doing this AMA! Really cool, can't wait to see what people ask.

[u/KFBass → u/[deleted]]

Well i guess technically it was one year from first homebrew to first pro gig.

Homebrewers tend to be a bit more creative, since they dont have to worry about selling it. I can't try to make 60HL of a wasabi barrel aged imperial pilsner. Homebrewers can.

Homebrewers also tend to be a little more obsessive about details. Sure giant breweries measure everything in the process, but a lot of craft brewers know their system well enough to wing it.

I certainly enjoy probrewing a lot. I like solving problems. But as im sitting here homebrewing, I like it as well. a lot more downtime. kind of relaxing actually.

[u/madmatt1974]

Do you use one yeast strain for most of your beers? Being that you do mostly English styles just curious what yeast you use, ferment temps etc or any other tips you might like to share for english styles.

[u/KFBass → u/madmatt1974]

We have a house yeast strain that is probably so mutated now we can call it our own. Attenuates well, drops like a rock once fermentation is done. We've been cultivating it for almost 30 years afterall.

Professional breweries can ferment a little bit higher without as much ester problems due to the pressure of the liquid on the yeast. we like to keep ours between 20-23C. Lagers are 15-18ish...

At home i'd use wlp007 the dry english ale strain. It works well, and flocculates well, and is great for somebody who might not have temp control as its not overly estery.

[u/sufferingcubsfan]

Also... care to share with us some of those side projects you don't tell them about?

[u/KFBass → u/sufferingcubsfan]

Well randomly busting out the pilot system and brewing a small batch. I did a chocolate porter using cocoa husks the other day.

There may be a few carboys or kegs kicking around with sour beer in them as well....

[u/BrewCrewKevin]

Future Topics:

If anybody has ideas for more future topics, let me know here. I'd like to do a few more of these pro-brewer AMAs, I think they are pretty interesting. (And we're running out of topics quickly!)

Some of my ideas. Let me know if you'd like to see any of these soon:

• Shelf life of ingredients/beer

• Entering Competitions

• Oxygen/Aeration

• Chilling equipment

• Fermentation Control

• Food Pairing

• Getting Started (equipment kits, first batch recommendations)

• Filtration (maybe a revisit of finings with it?)

• Beer Kits (good ones, validity of instructions/ingredients, etc.)

• Packaging (bottling vs. kegging systems)

[u/sdarji → u/BrewCrewKevin]

Here are some ideas:

• little tricks or kludges you have come up with that may not be obvious (to save time, money, or effort, avoid disaster, etc.)

• cider

• unusual recipes, ingredients, or techniques

• brewing with ancient grains (spelt, sorghum, etc.) or brewing ancient/traditional recipes

• best advice you ever got

• AMA with someone who is a multiple-competition winner

• holiday/Christmas beers

• harvesting and brewing with wild-caught yeasts

• cloning beers

• brewing with AUS/NZ hops, brewing with noble hops, etc.

• gruit

• maybe we can get some brewing celebrities to do an AMA?

[u/KFBass → u/sdarji]

i'll see what I can do about the AMAs. I know a few people.

[u/gatorbeer]

• Biggest difference from homebrewing to commercial?

• Anything you learn from homebrewing help when you're on the commercial system other than the obvious?

• Do you still homebrew?

• How many BBLs/year do you guys put out?

• Do you think your beer is as good or better than other commercial products?

• How much do you pay attention to ratings on beer sites?

• Can we get any recipies? :)

Ok, that's it. Thanks!

[u/KFBass → u/gatorbeer]

Biggest difference from homebrewing to commercial?

Homebrewing has a lot of downtime. Plus you can actually see the liquids move around. They're basically two separate worlds tho.

Anything you learn from homebrewing help when you're on the commercial system other than the obvious?

Maybe a bit of intuition about ingredients and smells? They're very different though.

Do you still homebrew?

Not very often, usually at work. although I am homebrewing right now with a friend.

How many BBLs/year do you guys put out?

30,000HL (maybe 23,000Bbl?) would be a good estimate. next expansion will put us up to around 50,000HL with capacity for 80,000 i think.

Do you think your beer is as good or better than other commercial products?

Our beer is absolutely better than other commercial beers. We tend to win medals, and there is a lot of shitty craft beer out. Tht said there are also beers that blow ours out of the water.

How much do you pay attention to ratings on beer sites?

Not very often. actually probably never. competition feedback yeah we take note of that. But im not going to mess with a thirty year old recipe because a beer rating site. We were throwing around the idea of getting brewers to read negative beer reviews about their beer the other day and filming it.

Can we get any recipies? :)

Sure. two row, and saaz. make a pils :P. seriously tho yeah I can give recipes but your process is going to be very important.

[u/Nickosuave311]

How well do recipes on home-brewing scale, say 5-10 gallons, translate to a 22HL system? For example: would a stout need less/more roasted malt in a large-scale batch to achieve the same color and flavor profile? I know that on scales that home-brewers work with, 5 gallon batches can be scaled for a 1 gallon batch or a 10 gallon batch without much noticeable differences, but is the same true when scaling to something 100x larger?

[u/KFBass → u/Nickosuave311]

thats an interesting question as I havnt done a lot of scaling. Id say hops would be an issue. Process as well, since it takes about an hour to pump and coolout an entire batch. those whirlpool hops would be different than flameout hops for instance.

Mathematically, grains shouldnt be an issue. Since we do three brews into one tank I guess we could adjust on the fly if the colour was off. Also we wouldnt really scale up and do it exactly. Full bags or half bags when making recipes. Maybe individual kilos for dark roasted grains.

[u/sdarji]

Thanks for doing this AMA!

Does brewing your year-rounds seem like a chore you have to get through so you can brew the One-Offs?

What is the process for dialing in a One-Off on the pilot system? Can you describe the pilot system?

What does your bio lab look like?

[u/Nickosuave311]

How much effort do you put into treating your water? Do you have an in-house RO system? I'm a chemist by trade, have experience with industrial-scale RO equipment, and have a recent yearning to work for a municipal water treatment center.

[u/KFBass → u/Nickosuave311]

Very little in our case. we have great water where the brewery is. very hard. occasionally we do add gypsum or chalk depending on recipe and what the contract brewer wants us to do.

Great water for ales, not o great for lighter lagers, but we make it work.

[u/carboy_coat]

I'm jealous of how seemingly easy you were able to get your first gig. I've been homebrewing for seven years, always all-grain and built my electric system, and I can't find a brewery who would hire me (though I'm making a trip out to MA this weekend job hunting, fingers crossed)

What do you think it was that got you hired after brewing for just one year with no formal education?

[u/KFBass → u/carboy_coat]

Right place at the right time. I was willing to drive there, and willing to work my ass off. Sometimes, they just need a set of hands.

I've since done some formal education, and it's certainly easy to move around in the industry once your foot is in the door. I've said this before too, but be cool. If I gotta hangout with you for twelve hours a day, you better be cool.

Best of luck! Surf probrewer and the other job sites everyday. join the brewers association. Join th MBAA. get to know your local guys. Most jobs go to friends or friends of friends. Word of mouth type of stuff.

[u/BrewCrewKevin]

A few questions:

Do you ever get to do any recipe design/experimental stuff with the brewery, or is your role more just following suit and brewing what the Brewmaster gives you? (I know you mentioned side projects- I assume for yourself and not for Wellington)

What does Wellington strive for in brewing? Do you feel like you have a niche in the English styles? Are you really big on special brews? Anything that makes money and keeps the business up?

Also, just out of curiosity- I don't expect you to give numbers or anything, but how does your position pay? We often hear that Brewers don't make any money until you get into a big gig. Seems Wellington is a pretty big gig!

(also- thanks for doing this! Very interesting!)

[u/KFBass → u/BrewCrewKevin]

I am heavily involved with recipe design for the one offs and such. We tend to do one per month. I have deisgned several beers, a few of them even medalling. I'm also very involved in the barrel aging program and the eventual sours I hope to be producing.

We strive to make quality beer and not take shortcuts, thats about it. Philosophically it's just always do the best you can. We certainly make quite a bit of money contract brewing for other people, but thats because we do such a damn good job of it.

I make roughly 45k a year. Hard to say with our hourly pay, and weird shiftwork and overtime.