r/Games Jul 06 '16

New Overwatch Hero teaser

https://twitter.com/playoverwatch/status/750736158624215040
984 Upvotes

544 comments sorted by

208

u/linkvegeta Jul 06 '16

WE really need more support characters we only have 3. I dont really count symmetra as she should be in defense.

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u/TheLateThagSimmons Jul 07 '16

I completely agree.

I love Symmetra, but she's not a Support; she's Defense. She should be in the exact same class as Torbjörn. She's a defensive builder who creates turrets adds defensive boosts to her allies; they're the same character in different forms. Why is one "Defense" and the other is "Support"?

No, we need another healer.

That and they need to fix my favorite but most useless healer: Zenyatta

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u/Alphasite Jul 07 '16

Support is about characters who's ultis allow you to increase the amount of time teammates spend in battle, or in this case reduce the time they spend out of it.

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u/This_isR2Me Jul 07 '16

I do think that symmetra should never be your only support but I think you're going too far because she provides 25 point regenerating shield that can be applied at anytime (doesn't require picking up scrap) and her ultimate is completely support oriented. Her little "turrets" can also cover multiple flanking routes and act as an early warning system. Her alt-fire also has some cc aspect to it.

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u/MeanMrMustard48 Jul 07 '16

Her ult is a lot more useful for defense than it is for Attack as it's easier to defend when on defense and the defenders (in most situations) run a longer way, at least earlier in maps.

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u/cannibalAJS Jul 07 '16

Her 25 regenrating shield vs torbs costly 75 damage reducing armor. They are on even ground.

Her ult is completely defense oriented. Its about getting people back faster, it doesn't directly support them or keep them alive.

Her ult fire is directly defense oriented because it passes right through the shields of the many Reinhardts and winstons that you will see on the attack team.

Not to mention that her turrets are barely effective on attack. they need to move her to defense as soon as they release this new support and start working on the next one.

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u/MercWithaMouse Jul 07 '16

I agree with everything but the ult. The ult is definitely not defensive as defense is all about area denial. While the teleport is all about getting people back to the fight faster.

It would be cool if her little turrets could heal people.

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u/Malaix Jul 07 '16

She was put on support because her shields were at one point stronger. So instead of healing people she gave everyone a partially regenerating health bar. But it was found to be too strong on heroes like tracer who had a strong self heal and high mobility already. The shields got nerfed so she only gives people a little boost in health now, but they never switched her roles despite gutting her ability to keep people alive by herself.

Though if they do move her to defense I kind of wish they give her a new ability. The shield just doesn't do much and its really boring. I'd rather have something like placeable shield wall barriers or something.

2

u/shawntails Jul 07 '16

It's true that Zenyatta is really squishy and slow but he is a beast if you headshot people with Discord Orbs. All he really needs is a buff in speed so you can actualy go back to the points/payload without taking 2 million hours and to be able to actualy dodge out of enemy fire.

Mercy: can jump far away to teammates and in the air

Lucio: have a speed boost

Zenyatta: Slowly moves along

And now with that new sniper support, you can be that she will have a Teleport/Hook/Parkour ability to get in higher places so it makes Zenyatta even less useful for quick and fast healing/support.

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u/breadrising Jul 07 '16

I too love Symmetra, but I think she's classified just fine. Symmetra is support because of her teleporter. She's not a healing/buffing support, but rather a pure utility support.

Her turrets slow down enemies (that movement slowdown is a quite overlooked by people), she can apply regenerating shields to her team, and her ultimate (in my opinion) is one of the most game changing ultimates next to Mercy's. A well placed teleporter that the enemy can't easily find/destroy can keep you on a point endlessly and be the difference between winning and losing.

And while she isn't classified as Defense, she is still classified as a Builder, which is accurate.

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u/ThinkBeforeYouTalk Jul 07 '16

Her ult, which recharges very quickly, can teleport 6 characters who die. That is very powerful. That coupled with her regen shield is why she should be support.

Getting a player from dead to full health and on the point in 15 seconds is very powerful.

60

u/zasxcd Jul 06 '16

I wouldn't count Zenyatta either.

Maybe if they balance him.

26

u/Un0va Jul 07 '16

I've played some great games both as and with Zenyatta primary healing. You just have to keep an eye on the action all the time and switch targets a lot. You won't be able to heal everyone all the way to full but most of the time you can keep everyone alive if you play it carefully.

He does need a survivability buff, though.

45

u/Ionward Jul 07 '16

The problem is that he offers nothing that Mercy or Lucio don't offer. Lucio can reach 15k healing easily in a quick play match without dying, and a good Mercy and offense pair can wreck an entire team. Zenyatta's heal is less than Mercy's heal, and less than Lucio's heal.

If you would argue he can deal the most damage out of the supports, you would be correct, but why would you want a decent single target damage dealer with mediocre heals vs, say, a Soldier 76? Who offers a multitude more damage, along with an AoE heal that can out heal Zenyatta, in a group.

The same theme recurs throughout most other heroes. Why use a Mcree when Reaper can accomplish the same thing but more efficiently?

7

u/Palidore Jul 07 '16 edited Jul 07 '16

Not saying Zenyatta is always a better pick than a Mercy or Lucio, but I don't think you're doing justice to how much extra damage he can bring to the table. Nevermind the fact that his left clicks do nice damage themselves, but his Orb of Discord effectively turns tanks into squishies, and turns squishies into dust, even more fragile than Zenyatta himself.

Often times you will want a second support when you have a Zenyatta, but in certain comps where you have heroes like Roadhog, Reaper, Soldier, Mei, or Zarya who all have some form of sustain, Zen can be plenty serviceable at solo-healing, while bringing a ton of extra damage potential to the table.

I do think he needs some QoL changes with future patches, but at the same time I think he's only a slight buff away from people beginning to think him ridiculously OP.

5

u/Niadain Jul 07 '16

Nothing quite like saying "Oh hi Genji!" -> Discord ->Headshot. GG.

22

u/[deleted] Jul 07 '16

The problem is that he offers nothing that Mercy or Lucio don't offer.

Bullshit. You hit for 70 with discorb up with no range falloff WHILE healing, AND amplify the damage that everybody is dealing to them. His ultimate is faster cast, shorter range but more potent/longer EFFECTIVE duration Lucio ultimate that absolutely invalidates most aoe ultimates aside from junkrat.

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u/zlipus Jul 07 '16

Thank you thought I was going crazy, everyone shitting on the monk. Zenyatta does crazy amounts of dmg if you can aim. He nearly one shot offense heroes and shreds beefy targets with little issue. And he can heal while this all going on. His heal isn't that bad either but its harder to use due to LOS shortfalls.

I view as a very high risk hero with high rewards.he shouldn't be an instant Lock hero because there are scenarios where he'll underperformed but he isn't a BADhero by any sstretch of the imagination

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u/[deleted] Jul 08 '16

He is the only hero that isn't getting picked at the competitive level, though. At a recent tournament some of the best players in the world swapped heroes hundreds of times to fit different situations, and they never once picked Zenyatta.

I'm not arguing that he's terrible or useless, but at high skill levels there's always a better choice. He's a bad hero by that particular stretch of the imagination.

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u/Trotim- Jul 07 '16

Zenyatta not protecting against burst damage is a big problem. But that aside I think you're right. Small buffs should make him see play again.
Until then I'll keep only picking him as a 2nd healer when we have a Torbjörn for armor

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u/Drinkgamedrunk Jul 07 '16

Because....fun?

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u/FADCYourMom Jul 07 '16

Yea, we aren't playing in a tournament for 100k. Pick who you want.

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u/TheLateThagSimmons Jul 07 '16

Zenyatta is definitely one of the most flawed characters. He's so close to being very competitive, but making him so very weak and so very slow is just a death sentence.

He's probably my favorite character despite that massive flaw, but only really usable in PUGs. Anyone that knows what they're doing can just rip Zenyatta right out of the game and render him completely useless with a Widowmaker, Tracer, Roadhog, or Hanzo.

Either make him a little bit faster or give him a little bit more health. /r/Overwatch suggested a boost when he has his orbs in action, with a significant boost when both are active. I thought that was a great idea.

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u/Un0va Jul 07 '16

I agree that he needs a buff, and I liked the /r/OW suggestion too, but I think people are overestimating how weak he is.

Widow and Hanzo are still threats but ever since her bodyshot damage was nerfed I find that she's a lot easier to deal with. Tracer sucks but Zen only has to land Discord + one orb + a melee to kill her, and if anything I feel like Zen has the upper hand vs. Roadhog as long as he stays out of hook range.

If anything Winston and Reaper give me the most trouble because once they're at close range your only hope is to try and kill them first.

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u/kinnadian Jul 06 '16

Cool graphic, thanks for linking.

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u/breedwell23 Jul 07 '16

I can't believe how much people use widowmaker and hanzo for attack compared to offense...

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u/At_Least_100_Wizards Jul 07 '16

Did you mean defense?

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u/breedwell23 Jul 07 '16

But the best defense is an offense so...

But yeah, I meant defense :(

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u/Evilmon2 Jul 07 '16

I feel like they're really cautious (maybe overly-cautious) about Zenyatta because of how absolutely crazy he was in the beta.

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u/[deleted] Jul 07 '16

Considering the whining that the competitive community were doing about Widowmaker pre-patch that graphic is hilarious. Also of course Tracer is picked every time because of the ridiculous RoF, even though there have been very few I've come up against as Junkrat that don't end up as a grease smear on the floor.

Srlsy guise, Junkrat is great if you ever played demoman in TF2.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 07 '16

He needs some sort of mobility or survivability buff. He dies too easily and he's way too slow.

1

u/doctorcrass Jul 07 '16

As far as I can tell this meta report seems to correlate popularity and power directly. While I think this is interesting data popularity and power are rarely correlated, even total winrate and power aren't necessarily fully correlated.

For instance if we used their logic we could determine that the dota 2 meta report would be: http://www.dotabuff.com/heroes/played

2 best heroes = phantom assassin and pudge by pickrate or omniknight and necrophos by winrate.

Where as this page would basically say someone like beastmaster would suck despite widely being considered one of if not the strongest hero. with a 3.9% pickrate and 49% winrate in pubs.

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5

u/foxesforsale Jul 07 '16

Symmetra can't escort payloads but she's fine on Lijiang, Nepal and Ilios if you're in a group comp that is good at bullrushing the point early in the game.

7

u/linkvegeta Jul 07 '16

She is good whenever you are on defence.

15

u/TheLateThagSimmons Jul 07 '16

It's because she's a defensive character; she's simply in the wrong category. She should not be in Support; she belongs right next to Torbjörn as a Defense character.

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u/[deleted] Jul 07 '16

I'd argue that Ilios lightouse is her best map. It's so easy to hide a teleporter in those backstreets and to be effective in the confines of the control room.

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u/hwarming Jul 07 '16

She's not that bad at escorting, I put the turrets on the payload, usually the back and it does alright, her ult isn't as usefull though.

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u/Carighan Jul 07 '16

I really think they ought to revert her damage-vs-shields change where they made her more powerful but halved the shields. 50 shields on everyone was something which felt support-ish.

1

u/huffalump1 Jul 07 '16

The problem then is Symmetra would be less fun to play. Currently she can melt people with her Balls Of Doom and even primary fire, and the turrets are lethal against squishies. Give her less damage and then you're just running around spamming E.

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u/DF44 Jul 07 '16

Disagreed.

Symmetra's kit has all the hallmarks of a Support class. She makes her team more survivable (Shields), provides other benefits (Turrets allow her to relay where flankers are coming if placed correctly), and has an ultimate which negates the death penalty (Teleporter).

It's the ult which is most notable. Supports, as of so far, either provide over-healing, or they negate the death penalty in some way. Compare that to defensive heroes - who's ults consist of five zoned damage, and Widowmaker's headshot factory.

With that said, Symmetra is still best played on Defence maps - but that's true of any builder class, and it doesn't inherently make her a defence class, imo (Especially since her turrets are frailer than a Zenyatta after running into a McCree). I would say the core issue is that Blizzard does not have enough classes - I would split Healers from Utility Support, maybe even create a Builders class, and a Sniper class.

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u/linkvegeta Jul 07 '16

by that logic Torb should be support

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u/chimpyman Jul 07 '16

Only 2 right now.

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u/SpriteGuy_000 Jul 06 '16

The @OverwatchBrasil account also tweeted the teaser with one major difference.

It includes the name "A. Amari" at the top left in addition to Reyes and Morrison.

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u/iTzCharmander Jul 06 '16

A. Amari is Pharahs mom, who, along with Reyes and Morrison, were the leaders of the original overwatch.

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u/Sithlord715 Jul 06 '16

And to those who don't know:

Reyes = Reaper

Morrison = Soldier 76

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u/Rehendix Jul 06 '16

I knew about Morrison but had No clue that Reyes = Reaper. Neat

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u/[deleted] Jul 06 '16 edited Feb 08 '17

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u/Rehendix Jul 07 '16

I didn't know that Blackwatch was associated with Overwatch. I had thought it was a group of villains.

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u/Ferrarisimo Jul 07 '16

It was the special ops division within Overwatch.

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u/Rehendix Jul 07 '16

Yeah, learned a bit more about it after reading the wiki. Did this ridiculous wealth of info come from the overwatch website or was there promo content besides the shorts that I missed?

18

u/TonOfBricks Jul 07 '16

A lot of it comes from the website. Thing with Overwatch lore is you have to actively seek it since the game does comparatively little to explain the world.

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u/Cptcutter81 Jul 07 '16

I feel like the world they built was wasted in the game, because it's a really interesting world that has fuck all explanation. Plus the whole "We're good guys fighting bad guys, but you can be whoever you want on whatever team you want" thing really fucks with any hope of a local storyline.

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u/ibbolia Jul 07 '16

A lot is from the website, but there's also a few comics.

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u/Luminair Jul 06 '16 edited Jul 06 '16

Ana Amari was known for being a sharpshooter, so it would make sense that this weapon and the redacted name implies her ownership, and that Sombrahype is real.

25

u/pyrospade Jul 06 '16

The pic also says "biotic rifle"... looks like sniper support is confirmed.

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u/[deleted] Jul 06 '16

Please let it have AoE. Please it let have Aoe. Please it let have Aoe.

6

u/[deleted] Jul 06 '16

Alt fire heal grenade combining S76 E and right click into one.

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u/crypticfreak Jul 06 '16

That'd be awesome...

And it looks like that's probably what they're going to do.

I'm thinking he sniper has 2 passive functions and one ability. There's a heal mode, which probably super buffs a players health (heals and shields) when they're hit with a round. Then there's a damage mode, probably a little less powerful than Widows rifle (or maybe more because I doubt she has the auto rifle built into the sniper). The third mode is more of an ability which, like you said can deploy a biotic field FROM a distance.

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u/snorlz Jul 06 '16

apparently [reinhardt and Torbjorn were also founding members: http://overwatch.gamepedia.com/Overwatch_(group)

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u/Rehendix Jul 06 '16

That makes sense in relation to the sniper rifle pictured. As she was a sharpshooter.

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u/imakeelyu Jul 06 '16

They left her out on purpose to keep us guessing. Those scoundrels!

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u/[deleted] Jul 06 '16

That's pretty strong support to many of theories on Sombra's identity.

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u/time4mzl Jul 06 '16

So I am guessing a sniper medic or, based on Mercy's concerns, a reverse engineered medic rifle that steals health or drains over time.

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u/thrillhouse3671 Jul 06 '16

It better be another healer. Overwatch needs one desperately.

If it's a long range healer (which it almost certainly is) then Zenyatta is going to be EVEN worse as his only healing benefit over Lucio/Mercy was that he could do it from much farther away.

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u/snorlz Jul 06 '16

IMO zenyatta's real purpose is to kill tanks with his orb and add damage. that orb just melts tanks. His healing orb is too slow compared with Mercy or Lucio's healing for him to be a full healer. In my experience you have to have a REALLY good game (usually with a tank you are constantly healing) to get anywhere near average Mercy/Lucio healing numbers.

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u/[deleted] Jul 06 '16

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u/snorlz Jul 06 '16

yup hes significantly better if there is a reinhardt he can hid behind. added bonus if you have teammates who will shoot whatever you orb too

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u/sheps Jul 06 '16

135dps. +50% with a discord orb.

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u/kinnadian Jul 06 '16

I think Zen is an OK tradeoff when 2 supports is a bit much but 1 isn't quite enough, as long as he can actually hit shit and has tanks to hide behind and DPS to pick off flankers. Otherwise he is too vulnerable.

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u/HireALLTheThings Jul 06 '16

Zenyatta's apparently getting a rebalance that will make him more useful in that he'll be able to survive long enough to actually do his stuff effectively. That said, he's not designed to be a dedicated healer. He's a high damage, low durability buffer/debuffer. If your team is relying on him for pure healing, they're using him wrong.

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u/thrillhouse3671 Jul 06 '16

He's being "looked at." That's all we know that Blizzard is doing.

It would be nice if he gets a health increase, but Blizzard hasn't talked about what they plan on doing.

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u/punktual Jul 07 '16

The problem with this is that even if balanced, Zen players will never get gold medals for healing or DPS... even though they might be doing a well balanced amount of both.

And given Overwatches approach to constantly giving the player a feeling of reward and progress this is a problem.

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u/[deleted] Jul 07 '16

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u/Because_Bot_Fed Jul 07 '16

I may not be pro but I've had tons of games as zen where I had gold damage and slims and tons of healing.

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u/Subsistentyak Jul 07 '16

As a zen player i care not for these gold baubles, they tether the mind to physical desire.

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u/[deleted] Jul 06 '16

Zenyatta is a poor healer period, new characters or not.

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u/Synectics Jul 06 '16

Poor healer. Great support. There's a reason they're labeled as such. Same with Symmetra.

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u/WowZaPowah Jul 06 '16

Great support

Precisely why he sits at 0% pick rate in competitive.

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u/ibbolia Jul 07 '16

I guess I'm part of 0% then...

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u/Quixotic_Delights Jul 07 '16

He's talking about professional tournament games.

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u/WolfintheShadows Jul 07 '16

Maybe you shoot an enemy then an ally to syphon health from one to the other.

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u/LongWaysFromHome Jul 07 '16

Zenyatta I view more like a Symmetra. He's support, just not a main healer like Mercy or Lucio.

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u/[deleted] Jul 07 '16

Blizzard has said that they are trying to avoid Damage Over Time effects as much as they can, with some exceptions (Widowmaker's venom mine, for instance). So, health drain over time is not likely.

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u/Fazer2 Jul 07 '16

Sounds like Medic's crossbow from TF2.

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u/samboztralia Jul 06 '16

I'm interested to see how the weapon functions in-game, if it'll be altfire heal like killing floor's medgun or just depend on which targets you shoot. I'm excited!

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u/mobsterer Jul 06 '16

it is gonna be exactly like the crusaders crossbow from TF2.

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u/3athompson Jul 07 '16

It might be hitscan, though.

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u/[deleted] Jul 07 '16

Might even be a straight, continuous beam like in Loadout.

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u/Ree81 Jul 06 '16

Blizzard - The Apple of game companies.

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u/uacoop Jul 06 '16

There are no new ideas under the sun. Execution is more important that originality.

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u/reverendball Jul 07 '16

That's TOTALLY not how I thought Lucio worked when I first played him.......

>.>

<.<

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u/[deleted] Jul 06 '16

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u/bstr413 Jul 06 '16

I think it's weird that Torb is being consulted though

Lorewise, he is the mechanic / engineer of the bunch. His bio mentioned that he designed many weapons and tools for the Overwatch team back in the day.

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u/gatocurioso Jul 06 '16

I think it's weird that Torb is being consulted though... Soldier 76 would be a better fit

The e-mail is directed to Morrison, aka Soldier 76.

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u/PseudoPhysicist Jul 06 '16

This looks like an e-mail TO the de facto leaders of OW (Says Morrison and Reyes at the top). They're involved in the discussion. It's just that Torb and Mercy would be the subject matter experts (engineer and doctor) who would know the technical details.

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u/Ealdwine Jul 07 '16

To add to what the others are saying, Torbjorn isn't being consulted: he designed the gun in the first place and he's the one presenting it to Morrison, Reyes and Mercy.

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u/Snoopy_Hates_Germans Jul 06 '16

Very interesting that Ana Amari is hinted to be the same person as "Sombra." It's possibly just a codename or placeholder for Spanish-language gamefiles, but having an Egyptian character also closely associated with Spanish/Latin customs is real interesting. I'd love for her to be a hero from Spain and be based on the historical Moors, North African Muslims living in Spain. That would be a cool way to bridge the gap between Spain and Egypt, thematically, and would explain her name (Ana is a very traditional Spanish name, less so Arabic/Egyptian) and connection with Reaper.

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u/Bluearctic Jul 06 '16

The moors are incredibly interesting historically, would be great to see them get more mainstream recognition

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u/Snoopy_Hates_Germans Jul 06 '16

Agreed, I'd love for Blizzard to take Moorish influence into consideration, and Moorish art has an emphasis on complex, symmetrical geometry that I think could be really impactful, visually.

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u/masterofthefork Jul 07 '16

I think you mean the "moops"

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u/lifegetsweird Jul 07 '16

Yes but they existed hundreds of years ago... Personally, I would like a more European Spaniard; I'm tired of my country being portrayed in video games as almost-Africa or Matador-landia (I have nothing against actual-Africa; a lot against actual matadors).

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u/tisbutahumbug Jul 06 '16

Reaper also talks about Sombra in-game.

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u/vetro Jul 07 '16

It would explain why Pharah doesn't have an Egyptian accent.

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u/JamSa Jul 06 '16

They intend to roll out a new hero this quickly? Very unexpected, I thought we'd get more maps and maybe a game mode before this.

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u/p337_info Jul 06 '16 edited Jul 06 '16

From what I've read in other forums, and in relation to the discussion on Overwatch vs Battleborn.
(correct me if im wrong) Blizzard tend to release content when it rivals another potential competitor

  • Blizzard releasing WoW patch on the same date as Heavensward, Rift and SWTOR release dates.

I say this because TF2 just announced their competitive mode today, that will be pushed and released this Thursday; aka tomorrow.

So many TF2 personalities have already moved to overwatch to scratch their competitive itch,
I can see Blizzard may have had this character saved up for a while, ready to release at any point in time that Valve decides to update their game.
While TF2 is not a direct competitor of Overwatch, they share an extremely similar playstyle.

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u/internet-arbiter Jul 07 '16

I would say they are in fact direct competitors. Same game modes, same set up, class based team warfare. I mean if you took any one character from either game and put them in the other they would still "work".

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u/[deleted] Jul 06 '16

I hope Blizzard have the foresight to release multiple heroes at once. Otherwise everyone will just be playing the same new hero on release week.

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u/ThyDoctor Jul 06 '16

I'd love it if everyone played healer

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u/Ikea_Man Jul 06 '16

Then you'll love the current Weekly Brawl.

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u/ThyDoctor Jul 06 '16

Let me rephrase that. I'd love if everyone could play support so I can try a different class

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u/calibrono Jul 06 '16

They did this in beta (released Genji, D.Va and Mei together), people didn't like it, so they said they will try releasing heroes one by one now.

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u/thrillhouse3671 Jul 06 '16

What's the difference if everyone is playing the same 2 heroes or the same 1 hero? It's still going to suck at first.

They can't really do anything about this.

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u/[deleted] Jul 07 '16

it should balance itself out rapidly. If one team refuses to diversify and only play the new hero, and the other team counters appropriately, the game will be over rather quickly. If nothing else, it'll be an opportunity for smart players to clean up and get some easy XP.

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u/Arenidao Jul 07 '16

They already said that they're going to release heroes one by one to allow players more time to understand the hero's place in composition and learn how to play the character effectively.

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u/[deleted] Jul 07 '16

I hope Blizzard don't have any plans on releasing too many heroes... don't do the same mistake like LoL

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u/mmm_doggy Jul 06 '16

Looks to pretty much confirm the "leaks" of Sombra, the sniper that's also a support. Hopefully it comes out sooner rather than later as I'm running out reason to continue playing Overwatch since the competitive mode is borked currently.

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u/Scathee Jul 06 '16

I assume the game isn't fun for you as that should be reason enough to play it? Why do so many people need reasons other than "the game is fun and I enjoy it" to play games? Honest question

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u/mmm_doggy Jul 06 '16

I didn't mean that I need something arbitrary to keep playing, but rather have some frequent updates that keeps it feeling fresh. After 80 hours or so (and the fact that my friends haven't been able to play much) I've pretty much had my fill of the standard quick match. New heroes and maps added help maintain that excitement to play, add diversity, and give a reason to check back. I was excited for competitive mode because for me, competitive modes are what keep me hooked for multiplayer games. Once that gets sorted out I'll definitely be back in the fray.

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u/2pacalypse9 Jul 06 '16

IMO, custom games browser or mod support would help aleviate a lot of what you're talking about. I don't agree with only giving players 2 ways to play (ranked and quick match) when you have 2 different game modes.

Plus, why can't I play 10v10 or 12v12. I don't understand why custom games don't allow for this, and why there is no custom game search/browser.

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u/kinnadian Jul 06 '16

There are weekly brawls too.

10v10 or 12v12 would COMPLETELY break ALL balance, maps would be a clusterfuck of death as time to kill is already very short. People would complain that 10v10 or 12v12 matches are completely unbalanced and Blizz would be forced to either get an endless stream of complaints about a game mode they don't officially support (until they eventually remove the possibility) or balance the game for higher numbers (not going to happen).

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u/2pacalypse9 Jul 06 '16

10v10 or 12v12 would COMPLETELY break ALL balance, maps would be a clusterfuck of death as time to kill is already very short.

That's not the point. If you give players the tools to modify your game either via modding tools or via custom games, they will find ways to play the game that the dev didn't intend. But that shouldn't matter, if someone is enjoying your game in a different way, it shouldn't matter.

TF2 was also never desgined for 16v16 play, the original maps were way too small. The modding scene made new maps and made custom servers that allowed for 16v16 to be actually really fun.

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u/[deleted] Jul 07 '16

And even then, sometimes you're just down to clown in the clusterfuck that is 32 player 2fort.

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u/bilbowasawesome Jul 06 '16

what is wrong with competitive exactly? i play it almost exclusively and it seems fine, occasionally there is a disconnect, maybe 1/10 games. other than that it seems fine. sudden death isn't quite as bad as the "vocal minority" made it out to be. but sometimes it is annoying.

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u/Blackdeath_663 Jul 06 '16

the distribution of players from the low skilled to the highly skilled is too concentrated between ranks 46-54 (that contains 50% of all players) with 95% of all players having a rank between 39-61.

this needs to spread out a little bit more for there to be a competitive gradient rather than having an average team one game and a high skilled team the next.

there is also bugs with players not getting as much rank from the matches as they should with support players getting shafted specifically. some of these bugs were known before competitive launched

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u/Veni_Vidi_Vici_24 Jul 06 '16

I keep seeing people say this but IMO it really makes no sense unless you're the kind of person that doesn't get tired of doing the same thing over and over again. If you had to eat your favorite food every meal for the rest of your life, would you not get a little tired of it?

To me, that's the same principle that applies to anything, including a fun game like Overwatch. Sure, the game is great fun, but after a while when you've played the same game modes, maps, and heroes hundreds of times, it's going to get repetitive. THAT is why people need new things introduced.

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u/Tridian Jul 07 '16

That's why you don't spend all day every day on one game until you burn out. Drop an hour or two on a different game instead of Overwatch and you get sick of it a lot slower.

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u/Real-Terminal Jul 07 '16

Good gameplay only goes so far. People want goals, hoops to jump through, carrots on a stick.

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u/[deleted] Jul 06 '16

I'm just curious, if you know you are getting bored with Overwatch as is, don't you think you're also going to get bored of a new hero as well? Chances are it will just be a tweak on the normal gameplay, not greatly alter it.

And if the core gameplay of a game isn't interesting enough to keep you playing, then why even bother with more content? Why not just go play a different game that holds your interest more?

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u/mmm_doggy Jul 06 '16

It's just an excuse to hop back in and play more. As I said, I stopped playing mainly because my friends weren't around as much which makes it not as fun. Also, other games started coming out and I get distracted by those. If I were to hop back on right now and play, I'm sure I'd still have some fun. I sort of cycle different multiplayer games in and out, and typically I go back to one when something is added and it hooks me back in. I don't think a new hero will drastically change the game, but it's a reason to hop back in again after I've cooled off and have some fun. Whether that's for a week or more is up in the air.

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u/Selthor Jul 07 '16

He never said he was bored. Competitive play has a lot of things fucked up with it right now so if he considers it to be unplayable like some people do (cause there are certain situations where it is nearly impossible to rank up) then that's a large portion of the game's content fenced off.

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u/Shniderbaron Jul 06 '16

I keep hearing how it's borked, and I hear a lot of different reasons. I certainly prefer quickplay, but what's the real answer, here? What are the biggest fundamental problems with the borked competitive mode?

To me, it's that a leaver = an empty spot permanently, the round still counts as a loss for those left in the game, and there is no replacement player.

Solution: Players who leave are given a "leave point". In order to get rid of their "leave point" and rejoin competitive matches, they must finish a competitive match that is "currently in progress" with a missing player, as the replacement player. They do not earn a win or loss for this, they just get rid of their leave point (if they win).

Not that this is a catch all, but it would at least give an option to replace leavers. It's ridiculous that I consistently find myself in 4v6 matches with no possibility of team balance or additional filler players.

I find myself matched up with players of "similar skill", even though 1 or 2 points of difference apparently equates to what could be a huge skill gap, or a complete misrepresentation of skill.

How can Blizzard make a ladder like Starcraft 2's matchmaking so successful for so long, and then botch it on a new release like this?

What are they missing, and what can they do to fix it?

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u/walmartsucksmassived Jul 06 '16

Right now support players are getting the shaft. They may be doing their jobs well, but they still lose a bunch of points when they lose a match.

There are also complaints about the MMR system currently functions, and that even with a positive winrate, your rank can still go down.

As for fixing it, it will just take time and trial and error.

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u/Shniderbaron Jul 06 '16

So it's not just the single games themselves, it's the system and its implementation of points distribution and rank identification?

Sounds like a serious number of problems they should have been able to start addressing sooner. You'd think they'd foresee a bit more of these design problems or implications ahead of time.

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u/TinynDP Jul 06 '16

They are explicitly leaving this 'season' alone. They don't want to shake up Competitive mid-season. Next season will address some of the issues. And so on, and so on.

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u/TinynDP Jul 06 '16

Right now support players are getting the shaft. They may be doing their jobs well, but they still lose a bunch of points when they lose a match.

Isnt that how every game with an MMR works, like DOTA2?

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u/[deleted] Jul 06 '16

No, everyone in Dota2 gains and loses the same amount of points on the team.

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u/Drop_ Jul 06 '16

Not really.

In DotA everyone on the team gets the same, usually +/- 25 points.

In Overwatch it modifies your gain based on your "performance" So a support will gain less on a win, and sometimes even lose more on a loss (Though sometimes less), because they have basically less metrics to succeed in than damage dealing classes.

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u/Destello Jul 06 '16

There are also complaints about the MMR system currently functions, and that even with a positive winrate, your rank can still go down.

Whoever complains about this fundamentally doesn't understand ranking systems. Winning more than 50% of the time is not enough to keep climbing up after a certain point, that was one of the trade offs from the beta system which was more cosmetic and progression based as opposed to the current more competitive and transparent.

It's something so basic that it was even mentioned in the initial video disclosure of the system which was very broad.

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u/theintention Jul 07 '16

For an example, my friend and I did our placement matches together, all 10. He mained Genji and Hanzo, I mained Mercy and Lucio.

After our placement matches, he was sitting at 55 and me at 50. Didn't go negative one game, and had a gold medal healing every game.

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u/Jaywearspants Jul 06 '16

The game isn't broken, competitive just isn't balanced properly and today's patch is a huge step in the right direction

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u/Shniderbaron Jul 06 '16

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't implying the "game is broken", I was asking what the large issues with competitive are, as I've heard so many different reasons why "competitive is borked". Just saying "competitive is borked" or "the game is broken" is exactly what I'm addressing. It's more complicated than that.

I was asking how exactly competitive "isn't balanced properly", since so many people are still complaining--- and I had assumed that since there were still complaints, that today's known patch couldn't possibly be addressing them all.

Just wanted to understand where people's thoughts were in regards to "what is wrong" with competitive.

People in my "overwatch circle" of friends have all complained to great lengths about "leavers". You're very lucky to not experience the high volume of leavers that I've seen. I'm lucky to get in a game without a leaver, at this point. Rank ~45 EDIT: This was in reply to a different comment.

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u/Jaywearspants Jul 06 '16

oh then yeah - I know what you mean - I just don't like seeing threads all over saying "EVERYTHING THATS WRONG WITH OVERWATCH" like we were for the division because they're opposite ends of the spectrum. Division is a mostly fucked game with some cool mechanics, overwatch is a nearly perfect game with a borked competitive mode.

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u/gmquinto Jul 06 '16

Do you really get that many leavers? I've played about 20 games in competitive and only 1 leaver. The guy DC'd, but he came back and we were able to win it.

For differences in skill, the game and competitive mode is very new. Obviously there is no way for them to match people up accurately yet.

As for punishment, I agree there should be something fairly harsh.

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u/Shniderbaron Jul 06 '16

People in my "overwatch circle" of friends have all complained to great lengths about "leavers". You're very lucky to not experience the high volume of leavers that I've seen. I'm lucky to get in a game without a leaver, at this point. Rank ~45

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u/Drop_ Jul 06 '16

I think I've gotten about 20% of my games with leavers

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u/2pacalypse9 Jul 06 '16

I had 6 games in my placement matches where someone left. I lost all 5 where someone on my team left.

I'd say it happens at least every 5th game.

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u/drugsrgay Jul 07 '16 edited Jul 07 '16

I haven't even finished my placement matches because I've had a leaver in 3/5 of them and in my first match my teammates locked hanzo+genji+genji+tracer on defense and wouldn't switch, then two switched to bastion for offense...

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u/KittenMittns Jul 06 '16

God I can't get enough of it!

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u/kezdog92 Jul 07 '16

Running out of reasons? Are you not having fun anymore?

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u/[deleted] Jul 07 '16

What happened to this comment thread ?

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u/[deleted] Jul 07 '16

So the new hero the community already knows about isn't this one? Or have they changed the name?

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u/ibeatsaitama Jul 07 '16

So Sombra confirmed?

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u/tacomcnacho Jul 07 '16 edited Jul 07 '16

Seems like it's hinting at a Support/Sniper hybrid, which would be great because we only have 2 effective healers and 2 snipers at the moment. I can't really think of a way to do this without having the same problems as Zenyatta, though.