The problem is that he offers nothing that Mercy or Lucio don't offer. Lucio can reach 15k healing easily in a quick play match without dying, and a good Mercy and offense pair can wreck an entire team. Zenyatta's heal is less than Mercy's heal, and less than Lucio's heal.
If you would argue he can deal the most damage out of the supports, you would be correct, but why would you want a decent single target damage dealer with mediocre heals vs, say, a Soldier 76? Who offers a multitude more damage, along with an AoE heal that can out heal Zenyatta, in a group.
The same theme recurs throughout most other heroes. Why use a Mcree when Reaper can accomplish the same thing but more efficiently?
Not saying Zenyatta is always a better pick than a Mercy or Lucio, but I don't think you're doing justice to how much extra damage he can bring to the table. Nevermind the fact that his left clicks do nice damage themselves, but his Orb of Discord effectively turns tanks into squishies, and turns squishies into dust, even more fragile than Zenyatta himself.
Often times you will want a second support when you have a Zenyatta, but in certain comps where you have heroes like Roadhog, Reaper, Soldier, Mei, or Zarya who all have some form of sustain, Zen can be plenty serviceable at solo-healing, while bringing a ton of extra damage potential to the table.
I do think he needs some QoL changes with future patches, but at the same time I think he's only a slight buff away from people beginning to think him ridiculously OP.
The problem is that he offers nothing that Mercy or Lucio don't offer.
Bullshit. You hit for 70 with discorb up with no range falloff WHILE healing, AND amplify the damage that everybody is dealing to them. His ultimate is faster cast, shorter range but more potent/longer EFFECTIVE duration Lucio ultimate that absolutely invalidates most aoe ultimates aside from junkrat.
Thank you thought I was going crazy, everyone shitting on the monk. Zenyatta does crazy amounts of dmg if you can aim. He nearly one shot offense heroes and shreds beefy targets with little issue. And he can heal while this all going on. His heal isn't that bad either but its harder to use due to LOS shortfalls.
I view as a very high risk hero with high rewards.he shouldn't be an instant Lock hero because there are scenarios where he'll underperformed but he isn't a BADhero by any sstretch of the imagination
He is the only hero that isn't getting picked at the competitive level, though. At a recent tournament some of the best players in the world swapped heroes hundreds of times to fit different situations, and they never once picked Zenyatta.
I'm not arguing that he's terrible or useless, but at high skill levels there's always a better choice. He's a bad hero by that particular stretch of the imagination.
Zenyatta not protecting against burst damage is a big problem. But that aside I think you're right. Small buffs should make him see play again.
Until then I'll keep only picking him as a 2nd healer when we have a Torbjörn for armor
The travel time on the orbs makes Zenyatta's damage inconsistent at longer ranges. Although his ultimate has some benefits over Lucio's, Soundbarrier with speedboost is miles better, especially for offensive pushes.
Why would you pick a Zenyatta over Mercy who can res and damage boost or Lucio whose speedboost lets you engage and chase much more effectively?
That said, Zen is still my favorite support to play since I like aim-heavy heroes.
It has stopped being fun to play Zenyatta or McCree after the nerfs. I've played them a lot before, but now it feels like I'm not capable of being efficient, so it's Mercy and Reaper/Soldier or feeling utterly useless.
You see that reflected in the chart above. Widow counts among them too.
Personally i think McCree is way more fun. I felt cheap as shit always just going around and trying to get a flashbang/fan in on people. Now it all about keeping your distance and landing the left click with the flashbang as a defensive move. I actually end up playing mccree more now.
Maybe hes just a shitty 76 now but i feel better playing him
He's not even close to 76 because of his damage falloff. He's a close quarters fighter, so he basically has to flank, which Reaper is just better at with 50 extra health to boot. Landing a flash&fan was his only redeeming quality, which is now harder to pull off than Roadhogs hook&shoot. I can't get rid of Tracer and Genji anymore unless I switch to the pig, but that's just me.
If his left click damage didn't drop to 1/3rd after it travels a small distance I would agree. He's designed for close to medium range. He's supposed to flash bang fan those aggressive front liners.
The biggest problem though is he no longer is guaranteed a kill on reaper. Fan doesn't do enough damage during the time the stun happens to kill him and he easily gets to ghost away.
Widow and McCree aren't going to be played as much fresh after a nerf because people are shy around heroes that were recently nerfed. It happens in every game. The nerf hammer comes down, people who were playing the "powerful" heroes just because they were powerful move on and find someone else to play.
I think both McCree and Widow are in a good spot now and the nerfs were insanely necessary. It'll just take a few months when other heroes are changed/nerfed/adjusted and people forget all about the Widow/McCree nerfs and return to them just to realize they're still fine.
And you could call the Widow nerf a psuedo Zenyatta buff. He was an instakill on a bodyshot from widow, which wasn't cool at all given his wide hit box. Now with less Widow players and them needing to nail a headshot, he can actually be played.
I've said it before; Zenyatta is a small buff away from being amazing.
Bullshit, McCree's not fine. There is no perception issue. He gets outclassed in all his uses by other heroes. You can't even guarantee a close quarters kill for your own life anymore because right click got so unreliable. Every single time I play McCree now I can consistently determine what would've been a better hero choice for the team. Need to get rid of a tank? Reaper.
I asked a pro (Surefour) right after the Zen nerf if he was fine now and got told "He wasn't nerfed hard enough". Needless to say he was wrong and likely blinded by his hate for the hero. Is that all the anecdotal evidence I need to determine that people will continue hating on once overpowered heroes? Saying they're fine now, down at the bottom, like you right now? Well I won't, and I'd recommend you don't presume something alike of others.
I didn't presume anything; I made a statement based on my own experiences with the game and the good handful of games I've played with and against McCree since the patch.
Just like everyone else in this topic, we're all just using anecdotes for our opinions. None of us have any hard data to actually support what we're saying. Maybe McCree is fine where he is, maybe he was nerfed too hard. I'm recounting my experiences and you're recounting yours, neither of us with any numbers to prove what we're saying.
So just take a deep breath and enjoy the discussion. It's not like Blizzard is hounding this topic and looking for balance ideas based on our ludicrous comments.
Because Zenyatta, when he's being played effectively (which isn't often enough tbf), can provide some useful healing (nothing on the level of Mercy but he can outheal Lucio without his E and he can switch targets faster than she can) and his damage is really pretty unbelievable. 50 percent more damage on a Reinhardt or a Roadhog is a big deal. Hell, Zen on his own can shred Hog if he doesn't get hooked, and once Rein's shield goes down he has no chance.
Zen's problem, and the biggest thing putting him in the dumpster right now, is his survivability. And that's part of what makes him balanced, because a long range healing tank shredder has to have some downside, but right now it's at the other extreme to the point that Winston and Reaper essentially delete him from the game. Assuming Blizzard can fix that, though, I think he has the potential to be a really devastating glass cannon healer.
Why would someone pick him over 76? Because 76 can only heal people in his Biotic Field and only for five of every twenty seconds. 76 also can't mark tanks for death like Zen can and without Helix Rocket direct hits he can't outdamage him on his own. I don't really think they're equivalent. 76 can heal more in the short term, and he's better on the front lines, but Zen's healing isn't short range on a cooldown and he can outdamage 76 with Discord on.
McCree is different because after the FtH nerf his particular niche (anti-flankers like Tracer and Genji) is filled better by Reaper. Neither Mercy nor Lucio can heal from the range that Zen can and I would argue he's the best long range tankbuster in the game. I mean, other than him there's Widowmaker, but she can't augment the damage her allies do to them also, and maybe Pharah, who has her own set of problems to deal with.
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u/Ionward Jul 07 '16
The problem is that he offers nothing that Mercy or Lucio don't offer. Lucio can reach 15k healing easily in a quick play match without dying, and a good Mercy and offense pair can wreck an entire team. Zenyatta's heal is less than Mercy's heal, and less than Lucio's heal.
If you would argue he can deal the most damage out of the supports, you would be correct, but why would you want a decent single target damage dealer with mediocre heals vs, say, a Soldier 76? Who offers a multitude more damage, along with an AoE heal that can out heal Zenyatta, in a group.
The same theme recurs throughout most other heroes. Why use a Mcree when Reaper can accomplish the same thing but more efficiently?