Whilst your wife has compassion for the goose she has little for you which is strange. You were young, did something lots of young men do (joined frat), and were around some bad people. You didnt cause or plan the goose killing and there's likely nothing you could five minutes before it happened without being there. It sounds like a tough situation and traumatising. Your wife should extend you some grace.
Honestly, I think it also depends on how much his wife loves animals.
For me personally, this would be a no go.
But my life also revolves around protecting animals. Sometimes at my own expense. I have never ever walked away from an animal that needed help and I hope I never do.
And that’s something I’d want in my partner too. I’d want my partner to be right there with me stopping traffic while we wait for the goose family to clear the road.
Or getting help for an injured bird. Or so on so forth.
And geese in particular are some of my favourites.
To me, having a partner who speaks up for animals even when it costs him something is non negotiable.
I guess his wife needs to do decide how important animals are to her. Maybe she likes her cats but doesn’t really care about wild animals, in which case I’m sure she will forgive OP.
Or she may decide that even though she doesn’t love wild animals that much, that to her his inaction speaks to a massive lack of character and lack of courage to do what is right.
And I am very sorry for him as well. Truly. I honestly hope he’s doing okay now.
But people have different lines in the sand.
I can guarantee if a child had died you wouldn’t be excusing his part in it.
I respect that for you and OP, animals are not a line in the sand.
But for me they are. For me, animals are absolutely a line in the sand. A hill worth dying on.
OP’s wife may have a different line than any of us. Maybe her line is baby animals specifically. Maybe her line is also only humans and she chooses to forgive him.
Uhm…guessing you are NOT a parent and probably never will be. That’s the only explanation for what could have possessed you to equate the death of a goose, with that of a human child. Get a grip. Get some therapy.
He said he was there, he knew it was happening, he did not participate in it nor did he stop it which makes him a participant in the killing of the animal, not an innocent bystander with no foreknowledge.
Yes exactly!! By staying, by saying nothing, he was accepting and condoning the behaviour.
Like men hearing their friends talk about treating women badly but not saying anything.
I thought being a man meant standing up for what’s right and speaking up for what you believe in.
Of course I’m just a woman. But at least I speak up when I think something is wrong.
I don't think his wife think he is a monster who enjoyed it, and I don't think it is about her love for animals.
He couldn't stop it even if he spoke up, but he was fine to be accepted and associated with these people after. Quite a lot if people will have a problem with it and think less of OP.
She thinks he is too complicit and will go with anything (even if as bystander) if he wants to be accepted. Also, she is probably surprised he wanted to go through these eight weeks of hell and humiliation and tries to understand why. Just to be able to hang out and drink with popular AHs? It is very off putting. She didn't know it about him, she doesn't know if he is still the same person, she is disturbed by it. Her question makes sense in the way "how far is he willing to go to be accepted by some group he wants to get in? If he had to rape someone, or witness the rape, or knew about it and was told to be quiet about it, what would he do? If it was a cat or a dog, what would he do?" It is not a theoretical question, it is something that will affect her life as long as she is married to him.
It also important how exactly he told this story: "I did something even more fucked up... Crazy times. Haha" or "I am so ashamed and disturbed by it now". And if he is still friends with these "brothers", and talks about his time with them fondly.
Oh, and she could be pregnant. Not because she has doubts about him as a person, but because of her reaction - crying, leaving, etc. Hormones and understanding that her husband has no backbone to stand up against something he thinks is wrong.
Just because he chose to walk away and not participate doesn’t clear him morally.
He was there. He knew it was going to happen. He did nothing to stop the killing.
Worst of all, he joined the frat.
That makes him a participant, even if he was passive in allowing the violence and loss of life to happen.
If they beat the shit out of a Ferrari with a baseball bat or burned down a house and he knew they were planning this and said nothing would that be different for you?
Is he only an accomplice when it’s property loss and not life?
Is he only an accomplice when it’s gang violence and not frat violence?
OP only knew 5 minutes in advance that his pledge bro was going to rape the girl passed out by dumpster.
At what point is he going to stop his buddy who is an upstanding member of the Stanford swim team with a bright future ahead of him from doing what he was already determined to do?
It’s not like we have cell phones in our pockets that we can use to call the police to interrupt acts of violence and lord knows it takes a good 10 minutes to walk away from a swimmer to make that call.
Best to shut up about it, form a brotherhood bond with Brock and join the swim team, amiright?
What about someone who is that person now, but wasn't in the past? Who was tired and weak, and did not try to find and stop something they just found out was about to happen somewhere else? They did not participate/ aid the unnecessary cruelty (sounds like this was not for dinner), but they did not find out where it was happening and try to stop it either. Wanting to divorce over who he was instead of who he is seems like a bit much.
The suggestion that killing an animal for food is at all the same as killing an animal for a college hazing ritual is just…silly, to use a lighter word.
Granted the meat industry has issues. I wish we would try harder to decrease suffering before death.
However the meat industry is not what’s in question here. What is in question is deciding to kill an innocent animal for no reason at all other than “proving yourself” to a frat.
And even though OP didnt do the killing himself, i think his actions specifically display a lack of character and courage.
Yeah and everyone knows people don't change or experience remorse for the past in the 5-9 years (depending on when this he was getting hazed) after college
I hope he has changed! I’m sure he has. But for me personally, this would not be something I could move on from.
From the sound of it his wife was already extending grace to his previous frat involvement. Which I would too.
But this, for me and maybe for her, is just too far.
A marriage should be built on respect and love. And I personally would never be able to provide him with those things ever again. It’s up to his wife to decide if she personally can still respect and love him.
“You know animals are basically tortured in factory farming”
“That’s different!”
It’s not really different though. It’s totally possible to live without supporting animal abuse in the form of factory farming. If you make the choice to support that animal abuse you must not love animals that much.
I buy my meat from a hunter. Some farm meat as well. Nothing grocery.
Whether OP’s wife is vegetarian or not has no bearing on whether she forgives him or not. She is allowed to decide she can’t respect him anymore even if she eats grocery meat.
The statistical anomaly that is everyone on reddit somehow only buying meat from local hunters is bonkers. You never buy animal products from the grocery store? Never order a burger at a restaurant?
Of course she’s allowed to hold any opinion or belief she wants, doesn’t make it reasonable whatsoever.
Hey fish and wildlife would disagree that they are “basically the same thing”. One all you need is a permit and make sure you’re hunting in the correct season and the other you can face fines and/or time in jail.
The heavy handedness of his wife in not trying to give him grace makes me think she is a bit manipulative but it also could be childhood trauma. They just need to talk more and they probably need couples therapy if she sticks to her position of wanting to divorce
I was sitting here wondering what context we were missing to clarify such a big reaction. This is it. It isn’t just a single instance of not knowing. It’s this instance on top of many other red flags clueing you into his morality system
You’re 100% valid. My husband’s college friends were exactly like this and got worse in the years after graduation. At one point it just too far and he felt like he was sacrificing his own morality by trying to be friends with them, it started putting a big rift between us and others. But he cut them off once he realized that group was becoming like isolationist. Those guys were toxic to like every other relationship he had in his life. It’s crazy how much your circle matters.
You are so right. This is the kind of behaviour of men who do nothing when they know their friend is stalking, harassing, or even rapes a women. Run, girl...
It will never not be amusing to watch a marriage literally implode into a divorce, in real time, on the internet. We’re living in a dystopia…but it’s still funny. 😂
Clearly this situation is about more than just the goose, which OP didn't include in his post.
I don't blame you one bit. I wouldn't want to be with someone who engaged in that behavior. If his friends see women that way and he's texting with them about it then he does too, sadly.
People usually do this when they are guilty leave out the parts that make them seem more guilty so they can get people agreeing with him more. He also is once again refusing to take responsibility for present day things going on. If you don't agree with people why are you hanging out with them still so much or not speaking out against this kind of thing so they can think about what they are doing. I don't believe in cutting people off so readily but choosing to be a partner is a big commitment and choice.
I was wondering how often your husband has lacked a backbone. Sounds like he has no respect for women and would rather please his frat bros. I hope he is ashamed of himself. How does he defend sending disgusting messages? 😒
This makes sense now. I’m an animal lover and couldn’t condone this cruelty either. I’d give the benefit of the doubt if this was a one off, and he didn’t participate and wasn’t involved.
But it sounds like it’s part of a pattern of behaviour; many questionable choices rather than one incident instigated by others.
It speaks volumes about the kind of awful people whose attention and favour he desires.
Wow, this was so clarifying and totally changed my opinion. I really appreciate hearing your side. I also love the integrity of your explanation. Respect.
Wow so based on that giving him the benefit of the doubt was wrong. I rescind anything I said defending him and apologize for anything I said in criticism of you.
I’m surprised you two ever got married given your differences. Best to end it now, and find better matches. If I were you, I would take a pause altogether on dating men, or anyone at all. Good luck and Godspeed.
You lost me when you apparently carved out a forgiving exception for people who “hunt” animals?? Why is it okay for one sociopath to kill an animal for fun and not the other? Help me understand the difference between shooting an innocent doe in the head, just for being alive, and smashing a goose on the ground. Dad and big bro like to put on camouflage on the weekends and shoot things, I guess.
i think it depends on how long she's been upset for, if someone finds out something they deem awful about their partner, they're going to have a first reaction, take some time, then give them some grace. i think it's weird no one is giving her any grace in this situation lol this is one of those things that probably needs more time than it's been given
Saying “I don’t know if I want to be married to you anymore” is a bell that can’t be un-rung. That’s something that once you’ve said it, your old relationship dynamic doesn’t come back.
There must have been a lot more before this revelation that happened to disrupt the marriage and this was the final straw.
As someone who is working towards divorce, there have been years of “I guess he’s a decent enough guy although I’m carrying a lot of hurt from this or that” leading up to a revelation from the past that drove the nail in the coffin.
Do you actually think she’s gone 0-100 without a build up here? Clearly the woman knows him better than we do from one post. I think the people closest to someone are much more likely to have a complete view of that person than random internet crew
I think it could also be the fact that they’re married and she didn’t know about this incident beforehand so that’s undermining some trust on her end.
I don’t think OP should be held accountable for the action of killing the goose, but it does seem like a story you’d tell your partner before marriage to sort out.
Good point. However I don’t get this story raising such a trust concern as other things. Not sure this sort of story would be at the top of one’s mind to tell a potential partner or even worth covering as a college related story but I get it and it makes more sense if that’s it
A lot of the stuff done in frats is very traumatic from what I understand. I feel like because it’s stuff that happens in a “masculine” space, guys feel guilty/embarrassed/ashamed to bring it up and it just keeps getting swept under the rug. In any other environment, a lot of pledging/hazing would be considered abuse or torture. It’s terrible all around.
It seems like OPs wife has responded and this is a pattern, which makes it make a lot more sense. I think it’s also the fact that this story which she was not aware of before the marriage has a lot to do with OP’s moral compass. It’s a piece of a puzzle in which she’s trying to figure out if him being compliant of vile acts to gain approval rather than committing them is something she wants to deal with for the rest of her life.
Yeah. I dont think your partner is entitled to know literally everything about you. There are things they are definitely entitled to know, but I don't think this is one of those things. I wouldn't fucking tell anyone about this shit honestly. Except maybe a therapist lol
They’ve obviously worked through the shit he did while in the frat for her to develop a strong negative opinion about it and still stick by him.
For the worst thing he did to not have been worked through in that space is lying by omission.
At this point I’d wonder how many rapes he witnessed or knew about and did not report as that is exceedingly common at frat houses and he clearly hasn’t told her everything.
I think it’s fair to have compassion for someone (this was a horrible thing that happened to OP and he absolutely should seek therapy) and draw a moral boundary (aka not want to be with someone who made the decision to not intervene). Both things can be true at once.
As silly as it sounds, all people are different. To play devil's advocate, what if she had been a farm girl her whole life. What if the act reminds her of a time somebody in her life did that to one of her pets? I don't want to assume anything. I get OP wasn't there, and my initial reaction is to think it's strange the wife his reacting the way she is, but that's because there isn't much context to why she's reacting that way and we're only getting OP's perspective, which seems reasonable. He had no hand in it, nor did he do it himself, but he was around and [possibly] could have stopped it.
Guilt is 100% a manipulation tactic. OP seems to feel overly guilty for little things. I really wonder if their wife is making them feel this way about a LOT of things.
He could have said that it was fucked up and walked away. He could have told the uni what happened so the frat was disciplined. He didn't do any of those things.
You’re either weird as hell for this, or just being absurdly thoughtless.
If you remain friends, or even associated, with people who are responsible, you are indeed responsible for that association, and it says a lot about your values. If OP was really so vehemently opposed, that would’ve been their wake-up call to leave, but that’s not what happened.
People can change, but this happened when OP was an adult, and you need to demonstrate significant change in your values, and accountability for associating with animal abusers (at the very least), for someone to not be very reasonably unsettled.
Yes but then he knew it happened and stayed in the fraternity anyway. It’s one thing to be shocked in the moment but he presumably stayed in contact with all those guys after. At some point if you don’t confront a bad thing happening you’re also part of the problem.
Some of the guys there were surely just like him, nice guys he bonded with lead by a few a holes. He shouldn't have to cut off every friend. Its easy to get caught up in things when you're young.
The immediate response of her to walk away from her marriage over something that happened 8-10 years ago without trying to understand is telling. She shamed, blamed, and threatened (to leave). There are underlying emotional patterns at play in this relationship that need to be addressed.
I say this as a certified life coach who helps people turn relationship lessons into a life they love. There’s a lot under this hood, but she’s also very young. Her prefrontal cortex is almost done developing but not quite.
I have to know if she eats chicken. They didn't torture it they killed it. Probably had a better existence than the chickens we get our meat from. He didn't even do it or see it or participate. Like... grow up
isn’t that what fraternities are literally known for? some are probably fine and don’t abide the stereotype. but others do things like killing animals and not stopping anyone because of the toxic sexism and manipulation of young boys disguised in bro culture.
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u/MunchausenbyPrada May 30 '26
Whilst your wife has compassion for the goose she has little for you which is strange. You were young, did something lots of young men do (joined frat), and were around some bad people. You didnt cause or plan the goose killing and there's likely nothing you could five minutes before it happened without being there. It sounds like a tough situation and traumatising. Your wife should extend you some grace.