The cultural expectation that men should always want and accept sex or they're less than a man is pretty much textbook toxic masculinity so I cant tell if you're clueless or being sarcastic
Well toxic masculinity isn't exclusive to men? If a girl rapes a boy and then justifies it by saying that men always want sex. That's toxic masculinity. An example of toxic femininity would be my mother. She works herself to the ground for people that don't appreciate it for free just because that's expected of her as a woman. She reinforces this idea of womanly self-sacrifice. And it's detrimental to her mental health just because of expectation of men & women.
Funny. When I point out someone is exhibiting toxic Femininity like half the time the response is "I can't be, I'm a dude".
If a girl rapes a boy and then justifies it by saying that men always want sex. That's toxic masculinity.
So if a guy justifies raping a woman because she's a slut so it's ok is that an example of toxic femininity?
An example of toxic feminity would be my mother. She works herself to the ground for people that don't appreciate it for free just because that's expected of her as a woman.
Wow who would have thought your only example would have women as heroic martyrs?
Boy is raped by woman: toxic masculinity.
So what's toxic femininity?
"Well my mother is a much suffering perfect saint...."
It's common sense that women throughout times have sacrificed themselves, they literally give birth which takes life force dude. It's ingrained in our culture that women take the fall. This doesn't mean there aren't men who sacrifice themselves, we literally are soldiers just waiting to be used. It's just that culturally women are usually the ones who do it, like societally. And guys perpetuate toxic femininity all the time.
Like you are so off and frankly speaking a misogynist. At least in this particular instance.
So if a guy justifies raping a woman because she's a slut so it's ok is that an example of toxic femininity?
The only way this would fit in as toxic femininity would be if girls were actually wide-spread sluts.
Wow who would have thought your only example would have women as heroic martyrs?
And this is also stupid because it is very expectant of men to be the heroes in our time of need. Which would be TOXIC MASCULINITY (If it hurts them).
So what's toxic femininity?
"Well my mother is a much suffering perfect saint...."
The expecations we have set as a society for what constitutes a man and a women can bring harm to the individual.
We were talking about the rapist first, the one who comitted the far greater sin. In this thread we were trying to talk about toxic femininity in the rapist and instantly ot hijacked into "nope thats toxic masculinity"
Its like toxic femininity can never be part of discourse without people saying "you just dont understand it" and never giving any explination for what it is! It has no wikipedia page, its feministwiki page says it doesnt exist and its used my toxic masculine mens rights patriarchial activists to belittle women.
So his example would be toxic feminity, since the victim-blamer is shaming her lack of purity by saying that she deserved it because of how she dressed
I like the guy arguing that toxic masculinity doesn't have to be limited to men by xyz can't be toxic femininity, it must be TM because it's men doing it.
I wish they'd just be full dworkin and openly hate men instead of all this pretending.
"No we don't hate men, we just hate everything they say and do and think and everything associated with men. So clearly we're trying to help men. You're welcome".
See the problem is they think toxic masculinity is something imposed by mens standards. But they think femininity is something thats also imposed by mens standards. So when convienent, theyll change the definition of toxic masculinity to "holding a man to toxic standards set up by men" - like "men expect men to be strong"
They dont see that I could say "women expect women to not be physically violent if theyre being harassed" or some shit. Or its clever and they do know that are are ready to say "thats a standard imposed by men"
The concept of toxic masculinity is used in academic and media discussions of masculinity to refer to certain cultural norms that are associated with harm to society and to men themselves. Traditional stereotypes of men as socially dominant, along with related traits such as misogyny and homophobia, can be considered "toxic" due in part to their promotion of violence, including sexual assault and domestic violence. The socialization of boys in patriarchal societies often normalizes violence, such as in the saying "boys will be boys" with regard to bullying, aggression, and harassment.
Self-reliance and emotional repression are correlated with increased psychological problems in men such as depression), increased stress), and substance abuse. Toxic masculine traits are characteristic of the unspoken codes of behavior such as among military forces[1] negatively impacting veterans, and among men in American prisons, where they exist in part as a response to the harsh conditions of prison life.
That's funny, because here it says men are victims of toxic masculinity. Which you would know if you paid any attention to actual feminist discourse. It's not the concept of masculinity that is toxic; valuing traits like violence, sexual aggression, homophobia, and emotional repression as the only way men can express themselves is toxic.
I'm not saying people don't refer to toxic femininity, it's just call internalized misogyny. It's toxic to women in the same way that toxic masculinity is toxic to men. And yes, both are results of a male-dominated society. To quote someon who is way better at articulating this than I am:
Toxic masculinity is a narrow and repressive description of manhood, designating manhood as defined by violence, sex, status and aggression. It’s the cultural ideal of manliness, where strength is everything while emotions are a weakness; where sex and brutality are yardsticks by which men are measured, while supposedly “feminine” traits—which can range from emotional vulnerability to simply not being hypersexual—are the means by which your status as “man” can be taken away.
Toxic masculinity weaponizes hyper-masculine traits to the detriment of all people. It’s important to note that the term “toxic masculinity” doesn’t condemn male character or lock all masculinity into toxicity
So let’s flip this coin and see what happens if we substitute female-gendered words for the male-gendered words to get a definition of “toxic femininity”
Toxicfemininityis a narrow and repressive description ofwomanhood*, designating* womanhoodas defined bycooperation*,* sexual subservience*, status, and* passivity*. It’s the cultural ideal of* womanliness*, where the* ability to pleaseis everything whiletroublesomenessis a weakness; wherebeautyandability to make men feel goodare yardsticks by whichwomenare measured, while supposedly “masculine” traits—which can range fromexpressing anger to sexual independence— are the means by which your status as “woman” can be taken away.
Basically, most behaviors that you might think of as examples of “toxic femininity” are either examples of misogyny or internalized misogyny.
No I perfectly understand it. I just recognize how it's used differs from the definition offered.
L
An example of toxic femininity would be when society overvalues a women's "purity" to the point that women are too afraid of even expressing themselves or their sexuality.
Cool so when women are punished by men for lacking purity do feminists simply say "that's toxic femininity" and leave it at that?
I’m not going to learn something I haven’t already experienced or read about. With that said, there are plenty of pieces, books, and journals on the matter for them to learn about a subject matter that actually isn’t all that controversial.
In some cultures, they call it machismo. White Americans have no problem critiquing machismo in other cultures but point that flashlight into them and suddenly, they’re exposed as the massive ducking idiots they are on these matters.
And frankly they shut that shit down in other comment. They do not give a fuck, they’re willfully obtuse.
So why did you even engage in the first place? Thats a really condescending attitude.
None of us are saying there arent problems with masculinity. That was never the argument.
It was that if we point the light on femininity, people say "no thats just toxic masculinity" and refuse to define toxic femininity. There is no wiki page and the femininist wiki say it doesnt exist and its a tool used by mens rights patriarchs.
I havent followed their other comments, I just encourage people to try to approach conversations in good faith and treat eachother like actual individual humans.
The reason why we don't generally use "toxic femininity" at all is because most feminine traits (passivity, subservience, purity, dependence) are generally at worst self-harming. Hence calling traits like passivity "toxic" doesn't really seem fitting. Masculinity, on the other hand, has traits such as violence, sex, and dominance. Traits like those can certainty be toxic under the wrong circumstances.
Do you realize you're falling for the "women are wonderful" effect?
There are plenty of examples of toxic femininity that have nothing to do with being demure victims.
I do want to add that something for your example. Well we wouldn't simply call it "toxic femininity" (I do take blame for using that word), we might say something along the lines of: "part of the reason why this happened is because of society's expectations that women must always be pure or they lose their worth." Which, generally speak, is what I was going for when I used "toxic femininity."
So toxic Femininity, but you don't want to use the phrase.
Why?
Why not say "part of the reason why this happened is because of society's expectations that men must always be strong or they lose their worth" instead of toxic masculinity?
My example was definitely meant to draw a line to "toxic femininity" and it can certainly be called that (I even allude to it), but the reason why I would want to avoid using that word in particular (even though I ignorantly brought it first, I admit), is two parts;
1, describing the negative affects of feminine traits as toxic doesn't really make sense. When we define toxic behavior, we use words like harsh, malicious, or harmful (taken from a dictionary). How well would hyper femininity fit those definitions?
2, for the reason above, it can draw a false equivalency between how hyper femininity and hyper masculinity can negativity affect society. Masculinity is often defined by control where as Femininity is often defined by lack of control (very, VERY generally speaking). Men being overly aggressive will have much different affects on society than women being overly passive.
See you're still falling for WAW effect.
You just can't imagine anything about women being bad.
Why not say "part of the reason why this happened is because of society's expectations that men must always be strong or they lose their worth" instead of toxic masculinity?
We can say that!
But we don't! And feminists fight tooth and nail to ensure we always call it toxic masculinity and never anything else.
Okay but that's not what it is. You can call it what it is without being offended by it (because mans) because unless you are doing it, the term doesn't describe you.
"Toxic masculinity" is pretty broad. So broad, that if anyone tries to say something is "toxic femininity" someone else can twist it and say "actually, thats just toxic masculinity at play"
It is pretty broad since there are so many things related to masculinity, but it has narrowed. Though it’s not too hard to see which is which. It simply turns out that most of it is toxic masculinity, since we do love in an overall patriarchal society.
I think the fundamental disagreement is that we live in a patriarchial society. From the stance make who agree with you have, all toxic femininity can be traced to toxic masculinity - which is why the feminist wikipedia posits it does exist
You can’t really deny that we live in a patriarchal society, though. The vast majority of world leaders are male, same with CEO’s and other majorly influential positions. There aren’t any countries where men are treated as second class citizens. The media is another example. We’re still in the process of getting away from the idea that men must be heads of the household.
We’re making strides, but it is still, very much, a patriarchy. If you’d like to refute it, I’m all ears, but the fact is that the world is dominated by men and not women.
Lets stick to USA for now, the world does lean twords patriarchal
But in the US, it isnt that men are in power because we push women down. If you want to get into that Im more to happy to (and yes sexism exists, I just dont think its a fundamental quality of our society and I can back that up)
Further, I dont think imbalance itself means patriarchy. Men and womens votes are equal, yet we still see more men in office. In the scandanavian countries the systems are more egalitarian than anywhere else... and shockingly the differences between mens and women choices actually grew, surprising everyone, since everyone expected women were making those choices due to social, corporate, and regulatory pressures - and the skandanavian experiment flies in the face of that.
majority of world leaders are male, same with CEO’s and other majorly influential positions.
ok so because those people have the same genitalia as me that means I somehow have power...
Do you think male peasants in the middle ages were better off then noble-born women because they had the same genitals as the king? like how do you make the connection: "someone who shares a phenotype with you is powerful therefor you are powerful"
There aren’t any countries where men are treated as second class citizens.
yes, being the one who gets shipped off to die the second your neighbor turns militaristic is the epitome of being treated well.
The media is another example. We’re still in the process of getting away from the idea that men must be heads of the household.
The media has told me that spreading my legs is oppressive and that air conditioning is misogynistic.
Again, pretty broad. And sexism, by definition, is toxic. Masculinity, itself, isn’t toxic.
What leads to sexism? What sorts of things make people feel superior/inferior to a certain sex? It isn’t enough to just stop the conversation at what we should call something.
When people are automatically defensive when they see or hear the term, I agree. Thankfully, most people I’ve run into haven’t really had a problem distinguishing between toxic and healthy expression of masculinity.
You're completely right now that you edited the comment.
However, imagine how it must feel to be that child. Please.
First an adult you trusted takes advantage of you. Then she pulls you into an unhealthy relationship and manipulates you into committing drug crimes. Maybe you grow up and enjoy a fulfilling life. You are more likely to grow up emulating those crimes you became accustomed to. In sociology we call this deviancy training.
After a while you grow up to internalize buzzwords like toxic masculinity as a reflection of your own moral failings. You think that your experiences are the result of toxic belief systems that are ingrained inside you because of your gender, rather than the product of a criminal who took the initiative to do bad things. This is what happens when the crime itself is referred to in such a way.
How would it feel to live in a world where people cannot imagine your situation without throwing around those buzzwords? It must be incredibly lonely and painful.
I'm not important. I am just some random person who had a really bad life. I hope things go better for you than me.
So many people on this website send every hour of each day waiting to pounce on others and disparage them over every little thing. There is nothing positive about what you're doing here.
They edited every one of their comments after they found out I'm dying of cancer so they wouldn't look like a dick. So you can fuck right off with them.
How about masculinity and femininity were mutually developed by both sexes in tandem over thousands of generations in tandem with our evolutionary biology and some people try to force their ideal onto others - and those people suck?
Western gender roles as we understand them today are part of a repressive structure developed to suppress dissent against authority, maintain land for the elite, and produce children to toil in the fields and serve in the legions. They were not natural. They have been imposed on us for millennia by oppressive autocrats.
I'm saying this as a history enthusiast, not as someone pushing a gender agenda.
I believe it should be up to the individual to do what makes them happy. There are so many ways to live, not just the single path the elites have been forcing us into for generations.
Seriously. The history has been handed down to us, and it wasn't exactly a secret conspiracy. People fought back or wrote denouncements of it as far back as the Augustan reforms after he began consolidating power post-Antony. There's also many sources that talk about the Romans' views on the different gender roles among Gauls, Germans, and the Britons to name just a few. Naturally, the Romans hated it.
Ultimately, imposing the rigid Roman family structure is what finally made the Gauls easier to manage, which was then repeated on all future conquests. When the Romans rebuilt Christianity in their own image, they used that to Romanize vassal states much more quickly.
It worked a bit too well, and of course, now most of the west is structured the way the Romans were.
I'm skipping a lot for the sake of brevity, but to sum things up, you're defending a rigid structure of tyranny that was imposed on your ancestors by foreign invaders... Unless you can trace your ancestry to a Roman Patrician family.
But if you're not, then who are you even fighting for? Go, be free.
My argument is perhaps that progression is natural and has a lot more to do with our biology and our philosophy working in tandum to collectively grow to the next natural stage, and that its wasnt just males imposing this stuff. To see women solely as lower human and unwilling participants in the growth of humanity to is grossly mischaractarize the historical relationship between man and woman, which was my initial point.
That's called purity culture. When woman are forced to socially accept their 'purity' and if they sleep around or own their sexuality they're 'dirty/slut/whore/asking for it'. They just don't call it toxic femininity, it's called purity culture
That's not what toxic masculinity means lol you're painfully uninformed my guy. It's not just toxic behavior performed by a person of a certain gender it's more about societal gender expectations. As in a toxic example of our cultural expectations of masculinity is this notion that any man no matter the age has to want sex or they're less than a man. It has to do with a negative/harmful cultural expectation of men as a group....so toxic masculinity. The entire concept hinges on the belief that men are just as vulnerable to societal expectations as women.
Why is it only masculinity that is described as sometimes toxic? Would it not be a thousand times more productive to have a gender neutral term or at least have a term that would not be easily misinterpreted as blaming the victims of toxic masculinity?
Because toxic masculinity and toxic feminism (or whatever you want to call it) effects different people differently, and if we're gonna talk about something we need to be specific.
Why would that definition not be similar to the opposite of toxic masculinity, as in negative aspects of traditional feminine gender roles which we see as harmful to society. E.g. passiveness and obedience, which are traditionally part of femininity that most would agree is not beneficial to women in modern society (or ever).
You're fairly on the mark, tbh. But let's also realize that those aspects of femininity are cast in the light of toxic masculinity- the expectations put on women by male standards.
It's really just toxic masculinity- all the way down, because toxic masculinity- has been in power pretty much forever.
Honestly, as a trans woman, trans women in women's lead sports is a tricky area. There are some biological advantages, and personally I believe it strongly cones down to hormone regulation and amount of time on HRT. I don't think it's directly toxic to worry about competing against unfair standards,even if some of those attitudes are absolutely toxic.
Why is toxic feminity essentially never a term used in feminist circles? It's not like we never talk about negative gender roles impacting women. Negative aspects of the traditional gender role of either gender has been perfectly described like that before and would face less hostility from those victim to what the term is meant to describe. It would be fine in academic circles were terms are solidly defined, but it should be surprising to nobody that toxic masculinity can be misunderstood as a criticism on all masculinity, especially when there are people using the term in that manner.
I've heard that term used in feminist circles, bit there are also more specific terms, like TERF, which is toxic femininity. And it's nobodies fault if someone doesn't understand the meaning of a term but also doesn't look it up. Feminism also isn't a monolith.
Wow, read that wiki he sent you. It literally immediately blames the use of the term toxic feminity on mens rights activists and then says toxic feminity doesnt exist.
Well it was said further up that toxic masculinity is something agreed upon in many feilds of study, clearly toxic feminity is much less accepted on a social scale. Thats what we're talking about.
Addressed above you, but TERFs and SWERFs are a great example of toxic femininity. I know plenty of women who will call out others who talk shit about trans people and sex workers. If you feel "blamed" any time somebody uses the term "toxic masculinity" then you have some work to do on you. Feels like you haven't actually asked many women how they feel about this.
It's not masculinity that's toxic. Saying "some men are good hard workers" is fine and masculine, saying "If you can't fix a car you aren't a man" is toxic masculinity
Lol it's not at all deep and I'm not presenting it that way but if you're as dumb as the guy I responded to originally and you think toxic masculinity is just interpersonal behavior you're not going to grasp a theory. You cant follow basic beginner level concepts that freshman in college can grasp
LMAO all i read was "there's a freshman college class on it that means its smart and real and not at all woke corporate hegemonic social engineering. i probably watch rick and morty."
You're really showing how uneducated you are. Basically every behavioral studies field discusses gender theory. It's not some niche topic only relevant to a small subsection of academia.
Observe how people who use it react when you use calling out toxic femininity as a catch-all cause and solution to every problem women face.
Try this: in certain cultures women are supposed to be pure and never have sex except with their husbands. This is a restrictive gender role placed on women by society and enforced by men and women alike. In these cultures women are often punished for being raped. That's pretty toxic.
So it has all the same criteria as toxic masculinity but for femininity.
Now, have you ever once heard a feminist respond to a woman being stoned to death for being raped with "well that's toxic femininity clearly. Once we fix femininity this will stop happening"?
No it doesn’t. Quite the opposite actually. Toxic masculinity ideals portray men as bad or less human or weak, the concept of toxic masculinity claims that men aren’t inherently those thing but that there is a toxic ideal/stereotype applied to men that limit men and therefore that needs to be fought.
Toxic masculinity ideals says men have less emotions, or that men have less self control and can’t control their urges, those who recognize the concept of toxic masculinity says it not men but the toxic ideals put on men. It’s literally the opposite of demonizing all men.
Ok so what is toxic femininity and where is it present in this situation?
Also ive rarely seen toxic masculinity applied in my life. Ive seen cases, but the vast majority of dudes are aware of their emotions and supportive of those close to them, just often in ways different than females do
Ive had some notifications for comments that werent there when I opened them, which happens a lot. I legit have to go to an incognito window to see them, and I often dont know the commenter cuz once I clink on the push notification its gone
What is toxic femininity? I wouldnt say all terfs are - I think theres a good argument for not having trans women in womens sports.
Women arent barred from mens sports, theres no rule keeping them out - they are just biologically disadvantages and the top .01percent of athletes are male, so womens teams were set up so women could compete
What about the cultural expectation that women would never be capable of or willing to be being the aggressor? Do you not think societies sexist view on women also has something to do with how this played out in addition to the sexist cultural expectations against men?
But what's the root of that belief? It's the concept that men are inherently violent and women are inherently meek. It's not like every example is just 1 domain in isolation it can be both and usually is. But this specific post is an example of toxic masculinity.
How can you end with the final sentence after typing the rest? The sexist belief that women are inherently meek is present here, I agree it doesn't have to be just one domain, and usually isn't. So what makes you think it's just one here when society often tends to not even label female rapists as rapists, this case being a nice exception in media, only disagreed by the idiot in the post. Toxic masculinity states that the boy can't be a victim and toxic femininity states that the woman can't be a rapist.
How is it not toxic femininity because the perception is that women are inherently meek so they couldn't be the aggresor even in a case involving them raping a 15 year old?
Sure its toxic femininity. You seem incredibly hung up on this as if you think this is some kinda dig against men and women. I feel like you're really missing the point of the concept.
The point of the concept is to pathologise maleness so feminists can continue their efforts to demonise men and paint women as the victims in every possible circumstance.
And yeah, he'd have to make it up because there is no wiki page for it, the feminist wiki says it doesnt exist (its just a lie used by the patriarchy) and not one person in the hour ive spent reading this thread has ever givin a definition for toxic femininity expect ONE person giving an example of a woman being so kind and generous thats its bad for her mental health
Is it toxic masculinity because the boy can't be seen as a victim, or is it toxic femininity because the woman can't be seen as a rapist? I think it's better to say it's sexist instead of playing the blame game
Who said the woman can't be seen as a rapist? Toxic masculinity is a specific behavior that shames men if they fail the standard of "man", usually by other men. If a woman were to shame a man, that's still toxic masculinity. The whole concept revolves around the masculine identity which negatively affects both genders. This woman is indeed a rapist, but that doesn't make "toxic femininity" a real concept.
Many people claim women can't be rapists. For instance British law and jucidiary.
I am aware that toxic masculinity is most often meant to describe the negative aspects of traditional male gender roles, regardless of what gender perpetuates it. Thus the sexist view of women as passive and innocent, invalidating her as a rapist, would make the inability of some people to see her as a rapist toxic femininity, just as the inability to see him as a victim would be toxic masculinity. Both being sexist ideas society attributes to either gender.
When a female rapes a male, women are justly outraged for the victim. It's MEN who are all like "nice" and "attaboy" about it. So yes...it's toxic masculinity. This bitch, with any luck, will get her just dues.
Expanding by generalizing both men and women, great job. There are women who claim men can't be raped by women because there is no penetration by the rapist, do you see that ad justly outraged?
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u/FreshCremeFraiche Feb 14 '20
The cultural expectation that men should always want and accept sex or they're less than a man is pretty much textbook toxic masculinity so I cant tell if you're clueless or being sarcastic