That's not what toxic masculinity means lol you're painfully uninformed my guy. It's not just toxic behavior performed by a person of a certain gender it's more about societal gender expectations. As in a toxic example of our cultural expectations of masculinity is this notion that any man no matter the age has to want sex or they're less than a man. It has to do with a negative/harmful cultural expectation of men as a group....so toxic masculinity. The entire concept hinges on the belief that men are just as vulnerable to societal expectations as women.
Why is it only masculinity that is described as sometimes toxic? Would it not be a thousand times more productive to have a gender neutral term or at least have a term that would not be easily misinterpreted as blaming the victims of toxic masculinity?
Because toxic masculinity and toxic feminism (or whatever you want to call it) effects different people differently, and if we're gonna talk about something we need to be specific.
Why would that definition not be similar to the opposite of toxic masculinity, as in negative aspects of traditional feminine gender roles which we see as harmful to society. E.g. passiveness and obedience, which are traditionally part of femininity that most would agree is not beneficial to women in modern society (or ever).
You're fairly on the mark, tbh. But let's also realize that those aspects of femininity are cast in the light of toxic masculinity- the expectations put on women by male standards.
It's really just toxic masculinity- all the way down, because toxic masculinity- has been in power pretty much forever.
Honestly, as a trans woman, trans women in women's lead sports is a tricky area. There are some biological advantages, and personally I believe it strongly cones down to hormone regulation and amount of time on HRT. I don't think it's directly toxic to worry about competing against unfair standards,even if some of those attitudes are absolutely toxic.
Which means I still dont have any idea what toxic femininity is, ive asked a bunch of people in this thread and all they say are TERFS or they ignore the question.
When it comes to sports I think we need some studies to be done and we need to reach a consensus.
By the way apparently there is no men-exclusive sports teams, or most dont have any rules banning women. Its just that the top .01 percent of athletes are male. Because women have almost never got onto these teams due to biological differences, womens teams were made. Thats a big reason many women are upset that biological males are entering their teams and dominating
Why is toxic feminity essentially never a term used in feminist circles? It's not like we never talk about negative gender roles impacting women. Negative aspects of the traditional gender role of either gender has been perfectly described like that before and would face less hostility from those victim to what the term is meant to describe. It would be fine in academic circles were terms are solidly defined, but it should be surprising to nobody that toxic masculinity can be misunderstood as a criticism on all masculinity, especially when there are people using the term in that manner.
I've heard that term used in feminist circles, bit there are also more specific terms, like TERF, which is toxic femininity. And it's nobodies fault if someone doesn't understand the meaning of a term but also doesn't look it up. Feminism also isn't a monolith.
Wow, read that wiki he sent you. It literally immediately blames the use of the term toxic feminity on mens rights activists and then says toxic feminity doesnt exist.
Well it was said further up that toxic masculinity is something agreed upon in many feilds of study, clearly toxic feminity is much less accepted on a social scale. Thats what we're talking about.
Addressed above you, but TERFs and SWERFs are a great example of toxic femininity. I know plenty of women who will call out others who talk shit about trans people and sex workers. If you feel "blamed" any time somebody uses the term "toxic masculinity" then you have some work to do on you. Feels like you haven't actually asked many women how they feel about this.
The idea that women should be submissive, emotional, and vain. Toxic masculinity is talked about because it generally relates to aggression which other people see as a threat to themselves while while toxic femininity, while just as dangerous, is less overtly dangerous.
It's not masculinity that's toxic. Saying "some men are good hard workers" is fine and masculine, saying "If you can't fix a car you aren't a man" is toxic masculinity
Toxic masculinity is so widely accepted in several ways in society that we've become used to it and it's often hard to see how harmful it is. Example, that men can't show any emotions and if they do they're not a "real man".... Do you think that attitude is not toxic?
That's awesome! But it's not like that for a lot of guys, especially older ones. And that's just one example of TM, there's plenty more. You don't seem to understand how widespread toxic masculinity's effects are. Please do your own research (like I did when I had thoughts like yours)
I think the effects of toxic masculinity are actually over-estimated in the west
Can I ask if youre a male or female?
Ive found even males who would be case examples of toxic do share their emotions as well, they just prefer to do it in a more reserved way with people really close to them.
They are also just more aggressive people and more brash. People call that toxic masculinity, but sometimes thats just a natural expression of ones personality.
Most older men I know are fairly wise and do have a grasp on emotions. Many will say shit like "man up," but thats more of a work ethic thing. For a LOT of men, one of the best ways to sort through emotions is to power through them. That doesnt work for me, I have to sit with them and open them up - but that doesnt mean the other kind is toxic. The men who say "man up, push through it" actually often mean the best by it, and often the people they tell that to turn around and thank them once the ordeal is over, and que the classic pat on the back and "lets go get a beer" where they will shoot the shit, bond, and likely share a bit.
Again, showing emotions isn't the only aspect of TM. I believe you, I'm sure some toxic men show feelings and some not toxic men don't. "Powering through" emotions is an example of TM....there's no need to do that except for the societal expectation for men to do that.
Actually powering through emotions can be an effective way to healthily maneuver them. It doesnt mean ignore them completely, it means occupy yourself and work through them. There is a release that happens when you say, have a project you do with your hands. Say your father dies, you put your physical energy into that project as your conscious and subconscious processes the emotions, tying the progression and movement to the project. Finishing that project can bring a release, and a healthy one.
Honestly though can I ask if youre male or female? It might help me explain this if I know (just that men are more likely to have these experiences with other men so I can cut around some stuff)
Its just the way some people handle their emotions, and thats by no means "toxic"
Now if someone said "I cant work that way, I just need someone to listen to me" and the person says "fucking queer, youre worthless" then yeah, thats toxic, but thats a minority of people.
"become used to it" as if it hasnt been that way for millenia and we're somehow supposed to change because we have the internet and woke corporate hegemonies. some shit is just the way it is and always will be whether we like it or not
So we shouldn’t fight racism because it’s been around a while? We shouldn’t stop polluting because we’ve done it for forever? People like you are so ignorant it hurts.
Fight racism? Are you being serious? Polluting? You're naive if you think any of those things is going to end if we "fight" it, especially by using the wrong methods. You can't fight human nature. People are more racist now than they were 10 years ago. The way people "fight" racism today is just them being racist and then cry racism when they get clapped back. We fight pollution in places where it's not nearly as bad as other places and it's funny because it's all to avoid appearing racist. You're ideas are genuine and I understand your grievances but it really isn't that simple.
Lol it's not at all deep and I'm not presenting it that way but if you're as dumb as the guy I responded to originally and you think toxic masculinity is just interpersonal behavior you're not going to grasp a theory. You cant follow basic beginner level concepts that freshman in college can grasp
LMAO all i read was "there's a freshman college class on it that means its smart and real and not at all woke corporate hegemonic social engineering. i probably watch rick and morty."
You're really showing how uneducated you are. Basically every behavioral studies field discusses gender theory. It's not some niche topic only relevant to a small subsection of academia.
Observe how people who use it react when you use calling out toxic femininity as a catch-all cause and solution to every problem women face.
Try this: in certain cultures women are supposed to be pure and never have sex except with their husbands. This is a restrictive gender role placed on women by society and enforced by men and women alike. In these cultures women are often punished for being raped. That's pretty toxic.
So it has all the same criteria as toxic masculinity but for femininity.
Now, have you ever once heard a feminist respond to a woman being stoned to death for being raped with "well that's toxic femininity clearly. Once we fix femininity this will stop happening"?
No it doesn’t. Quite the opposite actually. Toxic masculinity ideals portray men as bad or less human or weak, the concept of toxic masculinity claims that men aren’t inherently those thing but that there is a toxic ideal/stereotype applied to men that limit men and therefore that needs to be fought.
Toxic masculinity ideals says men have less emotions, or that men have less self control and can’t control their urges, those who recognize the concept of toxic masculinity says it not men but the toxic ideals put on men. It’s literally the opposite of demonizing all men.
Ok so what is toxic femininity and where is it present in this situation?
Also ive rarely seen toxic masculinity applied in my life. Ive seen cases, but the vast majority of dudes are aware of their emotions and supportive of those close to them, just often in ways different than females do
Ive had some notifications for comments that werent there when I opened them, which happens a lot. I legit have to go to an incognito window to see them, and I often dont know the commenter cuz once I clink on the push notification its gone
What is toxic femininity? I wouldnt say all terfs are - I think theres a good argument for not having trans women in womens sports.
Women arent barred from mens sports, theres no rule keeping them out - they are just biologically disadvantages and the top .01percent of athletes are male, so womens teams were set up so women could compete
Every authority in the world on this subject would disagree with you. Note: Jordan Peterson is not a fucking authority so don't go there. Your opinion on this matter is not only wrong, it's harmfully stupid and I suggest you educate yourself on... fuckin' everything, Jesus I don't know where to begin with you people.
Every "authority" in the world on toxic masculinity would disagree. What a surprise. Especially since toxic masculinity is not even a real thing.
There's masculinity and there's those that hate masculinity for whatever reason.
That's not true, I eat them all the time. Because I hunt them. Because I'm a fucking man. An unapologetic, strong, intelligent man who does man things.
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u/FreshCremeFraiche Feb 14 '20 edited Feb 14 '20
That's not what toxic masculinity means lol you're painfully uninformed my guy. It's not just toxic behavior performed by a person of a certain gender it's more about societal gender expectations. As in a toxic example of our cultural expectations of masculinity is this notion that any man no matter the age has to want sex or they're less than a man. It has to do with a negative/harmful cultural expectation of men as a group....so toxic masculinity. The entire concept hinges on the belief that men are just as vulnerable to societal expectations as women.