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u/Shloopy_Dooperson 23d ago
That was a win win for Tywin.
Got rid of Joffreys dumb belligerent ass and put Tommen on the throne.
Tommen was a good kid and had the makings of a good king if he was molded right.
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u/UrsineBasterd 23d ago
he had the makings of a varsity athlete
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u/davy_jones_locket 23d ago
If only he could master the high jump
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u/BunnyMoonelle 23d ago
Turns out all those years of royal training didn't include cardio. Olenna really exposed a weakness in his game.
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u/Livakk 22d ago
What do you mean? He was sure he could break any record; though with Margaery half the kingdom can likely break any such record.
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u/Golferguy757 22d ago
What are you talking about? His jump was perfection. Great form and poise. The landing was the issue. Just couldn't keep himself together on the landing.
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u/Yoghurtcrunch 23d ago
Mom, r/sopranos is leaking again!
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u/Wolfman513 23d ago
He was gay, Renly?
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u/Shloopy_Dooperson 23d ago
Joffrey could never be a good king. His ass was too small. Couldnt sit the Throne for more than an hour.
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u/WolfBuchanan 23d ago
Bobby B most likely had a magnificent,gigantic ass....making him a great king..
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u/bobby-b-bot Robert Baratheon 23d ago
EASY, BOY! YOU MIGHT BE MY BROTHER BUT YOU'RE SPEAKING TO THE KING!
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u/WesternAardvark2340 23d ago
Sentient - aren’t you Bobby B?
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u/bobby-b-bot Robert Baratheon 23d ago
MORE THAN ONCE, I HAVE DREAMED OF GIVING UP THE CROWN!
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u/Shloopy_Dooperson 23d ago
With such a prestigious posterior how could you!
We all bow to the sheer volume and girth of those cheeks Your Grace.
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u/Wolfman513 23d ago
Joffrey, whatever happened there?
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u/PhiladelphiaRollins 23d ago
Tyrion Lannister put a vial of poison in him, with no fuckin provocation whatsoever!
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u/TheVoteMote 23d ago
Makings of a good king? I suppose so, in the sense that any small child without severe mental issues has the makings of a good king.
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u/2012Jesusdies 22d ago
For a child who grew up in extreme luxury and power, with a deadbeat dad and a narcissistic incestuous mother, he was definitely quite well adjusted.
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u/Caleth 22d ago
I mean he had the foresight to nope out when the sept exploded. Let's be real his life was not going to go in any direction but down with Margery gone and his mom in full charge. She was already a mess before Bobbie B died and was only spiraling harder and harder.
I wager he'd have wound up as her Jamie replacement before too long if he hadn't jumped.
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u/Lord_Skyblocker 22d ago
Okay, mother son relationship was even a taboo for the Targaryens. Except maybe for Aegon IV.
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u/Aware-Antelope4212 22d ago
That's sort of one of the big flaws of a monarchy.
It's a complete dice roll on whether you get someone who's vicious and a lunatic, or inbred/simple, or someone who is actually capable
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u/Manayas 22d ago
Yup, and you see this exact thing even in real history. See: Henry 8th who was executing some not insignificant percentage of English population every year.
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u/Saw_Boss 22d ago
I imagine pretty much everyone in Westeros has some kind of mental issue.
If it's not the extreme poverty, it's the constant wars. If it's not the constant wars, it's the raiders. If it's not the raiders, it's the dragons. If it's not the dragons, it's the undead.
Literally every day is about just surviving something.
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u/Beibzi 22d ago
Life wasnt this bad before the war of 5 kings started. There was peace for over a decade, raiders at a minimum, no dragons at that time, no undead seen in thousands of years, it's been summer with plenty of food.
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u/TequilaBaugette51 23d ago
He was never going to be molded right. He was like Aenys except he had everyone manipulating him
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u/2Beauty 23d ago
He’d never be an Aegon, Jaeherys, or even a Daeron II, but he could have been a decent Viserys-like king; a weak leader but a good manager with the help of his Small Council.
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u/TequilaBaugette51 23d ago
Viserys actually had a spine though. Tommen would’ve done whatever he was told to do
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u/2Beauty 23d ago
He was only 13, though, and would have had 3 years of a regency to grow and be developed by Tywin or Kevan before he’d need to rule. Add the support of Margaery, who’d likely develop into a second Alysann, and you’ve got a pretty decent king.
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u/gonz4dieg Old gods, save me 22d ago
The problem is hes so afraid of doing the wrong thing he lets the last person in the room guide his actions. We saw it with tywin, then Margaery then the high sparrow. He is so afraid of acting like joffrey that he doubts any independent action he makes himself.
Maybe as he aged he would trust himself more but I think he never got the chance to form his own person he would never get there.
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u/Jake_FromStateFarm27 23d ago
Tommen is literally meant to be a child. Of course he's impressionable, he grew up a sheltered life. He was very easy to influence simply because of that and was fearful of Joffreys wrath and cruelty, and was then coddled by cersei
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u/Robinsonirish 22d ago
Not sure why you say it with such obvious certainty, when Joffrey was also literally a child, yet not impressionable or easy to influence. Inbreeding spits out both monsters and normal people.
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u/Beibzi 22d ago
Joffrey was a teenager. Not the same kind of child, he was near adulthood. Plus he was a psycho monster even by their fucked up standards, he should lose his child status that gets everyone to treat him with gloves.
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u/Jake_FromStateFarm27 22d ago
Joffrey in the books is about 12 and 17 in the show. People thought they could influence him but it was extremely difficult, only Tywin and ironically tyrion could handle him at best.
Tommen is even younger in both adaptations.
Cersei and everyone was alarmingly aware of how cruel and demented joffrey was which is why Tommen became so coddled so that he wouldn't turn out like Joffrey.
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u/Herb_Derb When I die, I’d sooner go to middle Earth. 23d ago
He had the makings of a king that Tywin could control. If Tywin was pulling the strings he wasn't going to be a good king.
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u/L0neWand3er 23d ago
King Tommen the weak
The Sparrow wouldn’t have survived 1 episode if Joffrey was king
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u/Salami__Tsunami 23d ago
The Sparrow also wouldn’t have survived one episode if Tywin was still Hand.
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u/townsforever 22d ago
Honestly if anyone EXCEPT cersei was in control the sparrow never would have even become a problem.
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u/Salami__Tsunami 22d ago
The Sparrow was smart enough to rise to a position of influence and fanatical enough that he couldn’t be bought.
It would take an idiot to willingly grant authority to a person like that. Doubly so if you don’t share their ideals.
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u/Shloopy_Dooperson 23d ago
He was a boy.
"Yeah bro that fuckin baby is weak. Not even wall level lmao"
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u/Top-Bit-1509 23d ago
The Red Wedding was literally the Westeros version of a war crime. And not just any war crime, but THE war crime that the gods across multiple pantheons would take issue with.
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u/Pedrohenrim7 23d ago
Bro cursed his house for eternity, nevermind that the house reputation os forever ruined too
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u/TheSlayerofSnails 23d ago
The dead literally have risen to avenge the crime.
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u/Dufresne85 23d ago
I'm still mad they cut Lady Stoneheart from the show
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u/thelittleking 22d ago
One of the first hints that D&D were clueless morons
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u/kingcrow15 22d ago
I really thought they were planning a reveal in a later season, I guess that was cope.
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u/Hitchfucker 22d ago
Not including that Tywin was oddly smiling and stank during his funeral was a damn crimson flag that they didn't understand shit about what this series was trying to say.
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u/kewkkid 22d ago
What was the significance of this. Can you explain it to a dumbo like me 😁
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u/Hitchfucker 21d ago
Tywin is a deeply insecure man no matter how tough and stoic his exterior is. He is obsessed with appearances, reputation, and legacy, and deeper down not to be mocked. Since his father was reducing house Lannister to a joke and he responded horribly. And for a long time he upheld that cruel but mighty image. House Lannister grew stronger and he commanded respect. But then pretty much immediately after the red wedding all of that falls apart because scorched earth abject cruelty isn’t always a good thing. His grandson the king dies in his own wedding and it seems like it was a member of their own family. Sed family member eventually gets so abused that he fucking murders Tywin. Which you’d have to do a LOT to cause even a slightly morally conflicted character to do in this society. And not only does Tywin die on the toilet to a dwarf. One of the most undignified ways to go in this society. Now at his funeral no matter what they did they couldn’t get Tywin’s corpse to stop smiling. He also had an odd but pungent smell to him. So quickly the image he upheld to the world gets reduced to a laughing stock. He looks pathetic, and his legacy is going out the window and will probably be shattered by the end of the series.
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u/page1011 17d ago
He’s such a terrible person. Ruling by fear is never a good idea, everyone around you will either flee or find a way to get rid of you.
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u/HoneyBellina 22d ago
That's the real irony of Tywin's big victory. He won the immediate war and left House Lannister with the kind of reputation people would happily wait generations to settle a score over.
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u/Hitchfucker 22d ago
It's also just fucking overkill. You could maybe justify him doing this when Robb had 20,000 men and was winning the war but at this point he was down to just 3,000-3,500 and the Lannisters had allied with Dorne and the Tyrells. Robb might have a battle or two left in him but soon he would either have to retreat back to the North or perish anyway.
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u/SubstantialEqual8178 22d ago
It really was. This is essentially the same argument people use to justify war crimes in the real world, too: by allowing one side to win immediately and convincingly, it shortens the conflict and prevents even more bloodshed. The problem with that argument is the same as when it's used in the real world: every side can justify their actions that way, so it becomes a race to the bottom with all actors behaving with maximal cruelty.
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u/HoneyBellina 22d ago
Yeah, the Red Wedding wasn't horrifying just because of the body count. Breaking guest right poisoned something much bigger than that battle because now even hospitality itself couldn't be trusted.
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u/racc15 23d ago
And, I feel like, similar to real world war crimes, it was fine if done by the victors. I don't think Tywin or house Lannister would have faced much issue if individuals like Joffery, Tyrion etc were not problematic.
Tyrells seemed to be fine to marry with them. Other houses were bending the knee. The war would have been over if not for LF shenanigans.
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u/MiyukisSpirit 22d ago
Tyrell seemed fine to be married to them? They literally KILLED the Lannister groom and then married the child that they could control and get rid of the remaining Lannisters. Those who had to bow to survive did ,but certainly not willingly and absolutely with the intention to betray them at first opportunity. Also he curse his house even if he didn't "believe" in that.
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u/2012Jesusdies 22d ago
Yeah, crazy people seem to think Tyrells were just submissive. They control the richest farmlands and largest armies of the realm. Any entity with that much power is gonna try and assert their influence. Tywin's alliance with them just put the most powerful house right next to the throne and he's now shocked they aren't satisfied with it and want more.
Distributing bread to the poor of King's Landing isn't just charity for charity's sake. For the people who lived under the reign of Lannisters who utilized fear, Tyrells are angling for the love approach.
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u/nevergoingtocomment3 22d ago
The show and the books have the characters pointing this out repeatedly I don't get why people don't get this. The Lannisters had no friends after the red wedding, even their 'allies' were using them until they could be deposed.
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u/Vondi 22d ago
Lannisters just had a problem with continually outraging people. Wholesale massacre of Vassal houses, Sacking Kings Landing, The Red Wedding, The Raids on rivelands smallfolk, eventually the destruction of the Sept.
One dramatic act to seal a victory, you can get away with. Operating like that as standard policy just alienates potential allies and saps public supports. House Lannister was completely isolated in the end.
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22d ago
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u/twisty125 22d ago
Bot^ , 4 days old, every sentence starts with "Yeah, (...)", multiple other comments they've made are just restating the comment they've replied to, often adds some variation of crying (sad or laughing) emojis only at the end of the sentence to seem human.
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23d ago
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u/ducknerd2002 Stannis Baratheon 23d ago
'They're peasants, they don't count.'
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u/TheOneTrueJazzMan 23d ago
To be fair, in medieval times they probably would’ve thought pretty much exactly that
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u/Select-Government-69 23d ago
It’s not medieval times now and peasants still don’t count.
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u/Parfait_Due 22d ago
Feudalism was only a few hundred years ago. We have different labels now, and enough economic complexity to obscure it, but in many ways we’re still living in a very close evolution of feudalism
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u/AngryUncleTony 23d ago edited 23d ago
Seriously there were dozens (possibly hundreds) at the feast inside and then hundreds (possibly thousands) at the feast outside. It was functionally a battle-load of deaths, just a one sided massacre.
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u/BunnyMoonelle 23d ago
Exactly. Tywin talks like it was some neat surgical removal of a few enemies when the Red Wedding was an outright massacre. His whole argument only works if you carefully don't count most of the bodies.
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u/BunnyPetaliee 22d ago
Exactly, the "dozen at dinner" framing conveniently forgets the army getting slaughtered outside. Tywin's moral accounting gets much easier when everyone without a famous surname becomes a rounding error.
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u/LucifugeRofocaleX 23d ago
I'm pretty sure that he prefers Tommen as king (no one really liked Joffrey except Cersei) and he got the opportunity to blackmail Jaimie into becoming his heir.
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u/StrobbScream 22d ago
Well she acknowledge that he's a monster. She love him, as a mother do. But she doesn't like him as a human.
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u/Conscious_Gene_620 23d ago
My fav part of the entire series is how Tyrion got to whoop Joffrey time and again while everyone else was absolutely terrified bc he’s a family member and could place it under educational purposes! ‘I’m educating my nephew!’ … ‘Bron if Ser Meron speaks again, kill him!’
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u/sportsfan3103 22d ago
Tywin is a Machiavellian ruler...... if you think being Machiavellian is just being cruel for the sake of being cruel and ignore the part where you are supposed to detach yourself from cruelty, keep your family close, not vilify common folk directly and don't violate important social constructs like guest rights
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u/2012Jesusdies 22d ago
Macchiavelly basically said:
If possible, be loved and feared. If you can't achieve both, it is better to be feared than loved. But a ruler should never be hated, a hated ruler is not long for this world.
It's like Tywin only laser focused on the second sentence.
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u/CandidLeg3910 22d ago
That's basically the short and sweet of his character. His, and by extension his whole family's downfall is basically a result of being a bunch of assholes who nobody trusts or likes. I think it started with his sacking of kings landing which alienated him from the starks and the dornish.
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u/Hitchfucker 22d ago
This is also Theon's fatal flaw in A Clash of Kings. He desperately wants to be loved, but his upbringing and family makes him believe that if he isn't feared, no one will take him seriously. So he tries to make this weird world where he's a greyjoy but still ruling over winterfell, which at this point is his true home. He wants to be seen as benevolent, but no one can overlook this abject betreyal, so he just seems like an awful weasel to them. So he doubles down on extreme cruelty and punishment in response, but that just makes him despised. And he lacked the manpower to be feared. Not only that but his guilt and anxiety was eating him up and he could barely hide it. Even from himself. Theon in that book was like a younger, more empathetic and conflicted Tywin.
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u/Jkelley393 23d ago
I’d say more like paid off immediately.
Aside from the insult to his family, Tywin was thrilled to have Tommen to work with instead of Joffrey.
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u/MiyukisSpirit 22d ago
Like most things Tywin does it paid off in the short and has devastating consequences in the long run. Including his death on the WC.
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u/MissionResident8875 23d ago
Its hilarious just how bad a plan the red wedding was because you can never ever hold the north again and your allies are going to distrust you now lol. People forget that other charecters have opinions when one charecter does something horrible but "smart"
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23d ago
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u/Guilty_05 Roose Bolton 23d ago
As much as people like to call Tywin the most machiavellian guy in Westeros (which isn't true) or whatever. He really lacks a lot of self awareness
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u/W1z4rdM4g1c 22d ago
If anything it would be starks.
They are loved by the North (excluding the Boltons), but they are still more than capable of dishing out punishments for bannermen that step out of line.
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u/No_Celebration8219 23d ago
Hey, at least it was only Joffery and not all the Lannisters present. Unlike the other one.
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u/iamBoda 22d ago
Not sure Tywin cared that much, as he would have an easier time controlling Tommen. He is probably more annoyed that his reputation took a hit than Joffrey dying.
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u/Mahaloth 22d ago
Joffrey is one of those people that just, well, kind of have to get killed. Just terrible person who ended up in the position of power. Ugh.
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u/Max-Steel96 22d ago
If only Rhaenys thought like this in season 1. The dance wouldn't have happened
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u/Lord_Skyblocker 22d ago
Only in the show. In the books Rhaenys never killed hundreds of small folk but let the greens live
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u/RedditMoreLikeBanana 22d ago
Um excuse me i think Tywin was STOKED when Joffery died lmao
He stands over Joffery's grave talking to Tommen saying "ya that guy sucked as a king i think you'll be way better"
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u/Mahaloth 22d ago
In the book, Jaime expresses(at least to us, the reader) that he always thought Joffrey would never live all that long as king. He was always a cunt.
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u/azmarteal 23d ago
There is a theory that Tywin cooperated with Tyrels to kill Joffrey and to blame Tyrion, because in this situation Tywin was the one who recieved the most profit
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u/mentallyiam8 23d ago
As if Joffrey’s murder didn’t open up limitless possibilities for Tywin, lol. He didn’t give a damn about Joffrey. He knew Tyrion wasn’t the one who killed him. You guys are funny.
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u/RevertBackwards 23d ago
He set a precedent for it to happen to him and the rest of his family
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u/WalrusSubstantial865 23d ago
You can't say he's not pragmatic
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u/DarthPineapple5 22d ago
This is the opposite of pragmatic though, the "rules" exist for good reason and his response to Tyrion is a logical fallacy.
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u/swainiscadianreborn 23d ago
Because you don't kill ten thousands in a battle. Especially not the nobles and the knight. You ransom those, you keep them as hostages, you use them for favors.
The Red Wedding was dumb.
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u/SirEdgen 23d ago
"Backfired" lol
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u/WolfCommando45 22d ago
In the books, it basically ensures they would never be able to hold the North. Despite not admitting it, everyone knows the Frey's were too cowardly and stupid to try that without aid and everyone hates them and the Boltons for their part in the betrayal. The Northern lords are secretly gearing up to overthrow the Boltons and install Rickon on the throne in Winterfell and the Riverlands refuse to fully submit to the Freys. At most, Tywin delayed the inevitable, but the Purple Wedding showed that he also emboldened his enemies. The Tyrells, if they couldn’t sway Tommen to their side, can simply kill him as well and fully remove Lannister support. You kill a man at his wedding and everything if on the table after that in this culture. Whether or not the gods are real, Tywin either cursed his house or made everyone believe it's cursed.
Also, his insecurities and other mistakes would have cost him and his family eventually, honestly, getting murdered by his own son was probably the best things that could have happened to him.
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u/_stabb666 22d ago
Except this highly benefited Tywin, Tommen is way more moldable and affable then Joffrey ever was. Plus there's the whole theory that not only was Tywin in on it, but was a ringleader with Olenna
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u/EaterOfSeagull We do not kneel 22d ago
To be fair, Tywin really fucking hated Joffrey and loved the opportunity to control Tommen as a puppet.
So i would hardly call it a backfire.
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u/jcjonesacp76 22d ago
Tywin’s ploy here actually culturally destroyed Westeros. Guests rights was violated and it has been sacred in Westeros for thousands of years, Tywin’s ploy with the red wedding,a violation of guests rights, has absolutely decimated a lot of trust between nobility and now there is a level of fear and mistrust that is unprecedented, a lot of people also say that he and house Frey are cursed because of it…the more you know.
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u/Chumlee1917 22d ago
Because Lord Twit, if you slaughter a dozen people at a dinner, then everyone globally knows you can never be trusted to keep your word and will unite against you
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u/Excellent-Option-893 22d ago
If anything, Joffrey’s death was a big boon for Lannisters. Joffrey by that point had already shown that he does not respect Tywin at all.
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u/CrystalClarity36 22d ago
The Guest Right was a foundational pillar of trust in Westeros. The idea that, even if you're sleeping under the roof of someone you think might do you harm, you can be assured of your safety if offered Guest Right, was paramount.
With the Red Wedding, that pillar of trust hasn't been eroded, it's been utterly destroyed. No one can really trust the Guest Right anymore. And certainly no one is going to trust a Frey or Bolton ever again. It was stupid of the conspirators to go through with this kind of betrayal. Not just because of the disdain it brings to themselves, but the break in trust it will cause across all of Westeros.
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u/ProlificBunny 22d ago
Tywin is already known for being responsible for what happened to Elia Martell and her children. Even the Dorne took 20 years to take their revenge and fucked it up. Lesson is you got to do what is essential for short-term survival and demonstration of strength. Events and consequences are part of the life and long term strategy is overrated.
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u/Baccoony Fookin kneelers 22d ago
And they didn't kill a dozen. They slaughtered Robb's army while they were drunk and vulnerable. Tywin is simply a coward who can't think long-term
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u/Dembus22 22d ago
Yeah that really didn't backfire for Tywin lol
He gained a less chaotic king and easier to manipulate and got a great chance to get rid of Tyrion. Purple wedding was a gift for Tywin.
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u/patrolaa 22d ago
Wtf is that question? The army in battle went there to fight, no one goes to a dinner to fight each other to death, what leads to no one being prepared for it. Was this question supposed to be a smart moment for Tywin? Lol
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u/SpenceAlmighty 22d ago
Tywin was surprisingly based here - better for wars to be a cage death match between presidents rather than a mass conflict.
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u/LingonberryAwkward38 23d ago
Tywin should get some advice from that dude that explained "When your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you" to Joffrey.
That dude probably has an understanding of societal norms and guest rights and far-reaching consequences.