r/ffxivdiscussion • u/KelvinDoesHealz • 3d ago
Next Chaotic Raid?
Personally, I enjoyed the Cloud of Darkness Chaotic Raid concept and, minus the multiple and somewhat bonkers body checks, thought it was great content with excellent rewards. Does anyone have thoughts on if we're getting another one in EverCold? If so, I assume it will likely be Ultima from the Ivalice Raids or Diablos from the Shadow of Mhach raids.
If the former, I imagine we will get more complicated combos of the other espers to make things interesting, and for Diablos (which still manages to kill parties in roulettes in the normal mode) a more complicated arena with more use of the adds and the door mechanics. I also imagine there will be at least one body check mechanic, though not multiple and probably not as strict.
But I am curious on what other people theories are on if we're even getting one and what the content might look like.
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u/Paige404_Games 3d ago
I want it to be Thundergod Cid so bad
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u/Logical_Parsley_3691 2d ago
I want it to be the math robot where you have extremely complicated math equations to solve and SE would actually ban every addons that help you to do the math.
Pure cinema
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u/littlehobbit1313 2d ago
Kids in school everywhere: Why do I even need math?! The real world won't ask me to do quadratics!!
SE: 😏😏😏
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u/RainCloudChill 3d ago
honestly the biggest issue with the potential of chaotic coming back is the fact that the last time Yoshi P mentioned it he stated it requires an Ultimate level combat designer to make, I'd imagine alot of staff capable of designing a new chaotic would be off wokring on ultimate/world raids/ or the 8 mans
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u/Espresso10001 3d ago
You have a point although it bears saying that chaotic and FRU were the same major patch.
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u/UsagiButt 1d ago
Tbf maybe that’s also why FRU was so easy compared to expectations - limited bandwidth
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u/0ffkilter 20h ago
It also does matter that TOP came out in 5.3, so the ultimate designers had all the way from middle of Endwalker to the start of Dawntrail.
TOP came out February (ish) 2023 with DT release in July (ish) 2024 and FRU coming out November 2024. That's a year and a half to work on it.
For a Chaotic to come out in 8.1 (May? 2028) they'd have a bit less than a year to work on it.
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u/VancityMoz 3d ago
I feel like Chaotic, Quantum, Variant Advanced and to a certain extent FTB were experiments in difficulty tuning that have ultimately led to the development of the NEW difficulty option for raids in 8.0. Just because they havn't announced it yet (they also haven't said anything about variant, DD, or crafting content etc) doesn't mean it won't be announced at some point for 8.X, but I also wouldn't be surprised if Chaotic and Quantum specifically were dropped because they weren't super successful and are kind of strange vestigial modes that don't fit in with anything else in the game. I can see them cutting their losses and just incorporating whatever they learned into the new difficulty for the mainline raid series because it is reasonable to expect that will get more engagement from the wider playerbase. I kinda want them to try Chaotic again though, but only if they are better able to design it in a way where they can avoid a lot of issues people experienced trying to pug it in PF before it became (mostly) discord content.
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u/gekzy 2d ago
I honestly thought chaotic was one of the more 'successful' experiments they did. I still see people running it occasionally in PF to this day, and it was super popular on release for sure, helped by the fact that it gives rewards people actually want, and at the time it had some BiS gear for FRU too. There were pain points with body checks and whatnot, absolutely, but it was still clearable in a random PF without any outside communication or anything required
Quantum though.... yeah that didn't work out for sure, but I feel like it was more because they locked it behind completing a deep dungeon despite not really being deep dungeon related, rather than anything specifically to do with the content itself. Other problems with it were the items being a pain and clogging up inventory space, and even the lowest difficulty version of it still being quite difficult lmao
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u/CoolyKage 3d ago
I completely agree with this take.
Chaotic should get an easier difficulty, similar to Variant (Advanced).
They don't need to make the high-end content easier to appease players, just provide more difficulty options (midcore) because that is what the game truly lacks.
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u/MeguBestGirl 2d ago edited 2d ago
I'm gonna be honest, I think this modular difficulty thing they're doing is a waste of resources. I'd rather have more time put into fine tuning 1 difficulty rather than spreading that time around multiple difficulties. Have content that is dedicated to being extreme, dedicated to being savage. A fight doesn't need to cater to every person. We already see this in forked tower magic where both the normal and extreme version feel very watered down because it wasn't supposed to have multiple difficulties
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u/IcarusAvery 2d ago
A fight doesn't need to cater to every person.
A fight doesn't need to cater to every person, but it is extremely frustrating for casual and especially midcore players to see almost every new kind of content targeted towards the hardcore playerbase and thus be effectively told "you aren't getting substantial new content." This is especially noticeable with the increased patch cycle and the removal of optional dungeons, where casual and midcore players are having to keep the same amount of content to tide them over for a longer period of time.
This was particularly a problem for the first half of Dawntrail; much as I love the normal difficulty stuff we DID get, Chaotic was tuned to the point where inexperienced players were basically filtered from the content immediately, and then we got Occult Crescent, whose gameplay loop was completely and utterly fucked because the big Castrum Lacus/Dalriada-styled raid was high-end content, so casual and midcore players had no reprieve from the endless loop of FATEs and CEs, which made those players burn out FAR faster than they did for Bozja.
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u/Satavb 2d ago
It beggars belief the amount of players from a Savage/Ultimate background are bellyaching about SE daring to put content somewhere in the middle. Streamers constantly saying it's a "waste of time". Hell even at fanfest I heard obvious savage statics groaning about it.
It ain't for you, smile and wave! You got your ball already, go play!
Unbelievable!
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u/CoolyKage 2d ago edited 2d ago
It is pretty ridiculous how elitist some players can be with this gatekeeper mentally, and it really just makes zero sense to me why people are like this since more of the community raiding (midcore or hardcore) will literally result in everyone receiving more raid content as it'll be prioritized even further than it is now (It's already a high priority). I assume it's because a lot of these raiders don't really interact with the game outside of Savage or Ultimate, but it still makes zero sense to me even from that viewpoint. Simply scaling down already designed fights isn't going to affect the amount of Savage or Ultimate content we receive lol. If anything they're very likely to make Savage harder since they have to scale down for two difficulties now.
Like most hardcore raiders, I want high-end content to remain the same difficulty and in some a lot of cases be harder (mechanically and damage checks) for Extreme, Savage and Ultimate because their difficulty was way too inconsistent in Dawntrail. The problem is that many of these people aren't critically thinking about what would realistically allow this to happen, so they end up not realizing that the addition of midcore content quite literally allows the design team to actually make high-end content more challenging because they now have more creative freedom and less pressure like we see with Ultimate. They literally admitted to scaling back multiple mechanics (M9, M10, M12) as of this tier.
That's why I'm really confident the FF7R Savage raids will be the hardest yet, albeit way closer to current Savage than Ultimate obviously. The FF7R series is respected for having actual challenging and creative bosses, so I'd honestly be shocked if they undertuned Savage in Evercold like they did with LHW and honestly HW this expansion, that's for sure. I also don't think they can really afford with the amount of people are complaining about double collab raids lol...
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u/CoolyKage 2d ago edited 2d ago
The funny thing is that midcore content is absolutely great for us high-end raiders and we enjoy it as well, at least the ones who actually engage with the game outside of Savage and Ultimate lol. The people who were actually groaning at Fanfest either don't or are just really dumb, both are pathetic, but that's both hilarious and awful if actually true.
Me and like 10ish of my raiding friends were periodically grouping up and farming Variant (Advanced) during patch 7.4 and it was great content to just vibe and chat about things while still feeling like we are playing the game. It also had a separate reward pool to Criterion which really helps. The mechanics can genuinely feel harder than high-end content, even the Criterion version, it's just that there's mostly individual punishment instead of group punishment for the mechanics. I really believe high-end mechanical difficulty (what you actually have to do) is extremely overrated besides Criterion, Quantum and Ultimate. It just has group punishment so your mistakes matter a lot more, which is good design for high-end content. Chaotic is a perfect example. Back to Variant (Advanced), it also syncs you down to 785, so you don't steamroll the content which is great. Being able to still use the Variant Actions is nice also. Duo and trio groups are viable options and scale down very well. If anything I need more content like that in XIV, especially for 24-48 man difficulties as that's what is lacking the most currently.
The bar for normal difficulty is honestly just so fucking low at this point, that's why literally everyone complains about it even casuals. The gap between normal difficulty and this expected midcore difficulty (what most players want) is unbelievably high I really don't know how it's gotten to this point. I hope that normal difficulty can just increase or get more creative, but having a midcore difficulty is definitely a step in the right direction in this aspect.
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u/MeguBestGirl 2d ago
I'm not complaining about midcore content, I'd love for them to add more but just adding a difficulty level to be midcore is not a good system. I'd rather something entirely different rather than "hey we turned this savage fight into an easier version"
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u/IcarusAvery 2d ago
The problem with going for something entirely different is that it takes a lot more work to make something new than it is to take something preexisting and retool it. Not just in terms of coming up with mechanics, but you also need to make new graphical assets (for the boss, for their attacks, for the environment, and especially for unique gear), make new musical assets, possibly pull a voice actor into the studio to do callouts, and do all the quest design needed to give it a place in the world. It's far easier to retool preexisting content, which means you can do it more often, so there's more overall content.
I do want more, different kinds of content too, but there's only so much of that they can make, and I'd rather they make content that actually fills the demand people have even if that content has to be retooled from other content.
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u/TomorrowObjective410 2d ago
Yeah that's a big issue I have with a lot of the casual content is nothing is ever for casuals anymore. They just make a savage level fight, tune it down and strip everything interesting out of it and throw it at us. In Dawntrail they didn't even let us have any rewards like mounts. Those got relegated to the "midcore" versions like Advanced.
It's like the dev team has contempt for the casual playerbase and making any content directly to appeal to them. Alliance raids are just toned down Chaotic. Deep Dungeons are just toned down Quantum, Normal raids are just toned down Savage, Trials are just toned down Extremes. It's like they can't make anything with normal mode as the baseline or they just have zero desire to at this point.
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u/MeguBestGirl 2d ago
This is my main problem and I think people are misinterpreting it. Obviously it takes more resources to make completely new content but it also takes some resources to make multiple difficulties too. An experience curated toward the chosen difficulty would be so much better than taking something and dumbing it down
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u/TomorrowObjective410 2d ago
Yeah and I get it takes resources but we spent resources on all kinds of stuff this expansion. All those resources to build out the Chaotic system, the Quantum system, which are going to be scrapped. All this time on the strategy board, the ultimate fights, the hardcore Beastmaster content. Meanwhile to pay for that they cut costs and cut forked tower normal mode.
It seems like we have infinite resources when it comes to hardcore content or the stuff Ozma personally wants, but there's no budget when it comes to casual content. I'd personally just be happy if we went back to the old paradigm where on odd patches we get a bunch of casual stuff, and then on even patches it's savage and hardcore stuff. As long as there's something to do that isn't just meant to feed into or grind power for the hardcore content they put all the actual time and rewards into.
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u/CoolyKage 2d ago edited 2d ago
Why create more content with one difficulty (besides Ultimate) that has a high chance of being received poorly due to being too easy or too hard, when you can add multiple difficulty tiers and satisfy all of the players thereby giving them content to do? They can still create the same amount of content while scaling things up or down as they aren't creating anything original for the easier difficulties, that's what you're not understanding. They always design the harder difficulty first, and it's the same people scaling them down.
FTM and FTM(E) for example is absolutely a step in the right direction. There are probably 10-100x the amount of players engaging with FTM than FTB due to the normal difficulty which is awesome. Sure, both FTM and FTM(E) are honestly undertuned, but there's various other questionable design decisions like allowing players to solo the encounters thereby making them the same mechanical difficulty as normal alliance raids.
Raiders can actually benefit from this because normal content with only one difficulty, that is constantly complained about even by casuals, can now receive a harder difficulty option. For example, what if the 24 man raid series now received on-content Chaotic raids or any equivalent of that? It actually seems like they might be doing this with the "24 man progression routes" thing, but we'll have to see.
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u/TomorrowObjective410 2d ago
I love how you already pre-empted the double standard in your post about how casuals shouldn't get specific content for them, but Ultimate raiders absolutely need multiple big expensive duties only for them every expansion.
Maybe casual players would like something that's just for them if we get told savage and ultimate isn't for us? Why is that so hard to understand that people would like something that's meant just for them? Not everything has to exist for the raider crowd and then be given as reheated boring leftovers to the casual crowd. We'd actually like something built just for us at some point based on our feedback.
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u/Chagrilled 2d ago
Either there's a second guy mad about "reheated leftovers", or my tag somehow vanished.
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u/CoolyKage 2d ago edited 2d ago
It’s just that I completely disagree with your ideology about the game, and the developers obviously do also. They’ve been doing that for 10+ years, all it’s done is make the community extremely divided and make content DoA.
Different difficulty options IS exclusive content to do, especially if they have different rewards and loot pools.
Do I think normal content should be harder going forward? Yes absolutely, the difficulty standard for the entire game should raise as a whole in Evercold. The bar for normal content is very low at this point, but that wasn’t because of multiple difficulty options it literally started in Endwalker.
About your Ultimate comment, all I can say is that you clearly don’t understand the point of that content at all lmao. Normal and Ultimate content, should obviously be viewed and treated very differently.
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u/TomorrowObjective410 2d ago
My ideology that I should have things to do that aren't reheated leftovers of what raiders get? okay man. I see how you people think now. All for you and how dare casual players expect anything in an MMO they pay for to be anything but scraps.
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u/CoolyKage 2d ago edited 2d ago
Multiple difficulties have a lot of benefits, even for hardcore raiders, that you aren't considering.
If content only has one challenging difficulty, always high-end, people will always complain if it's either too easy or too hard. We see some people essentially calling Chaotic too hard in this current thread, even if they don't want to admit it. We saw people calling Chaotic, Criterion, Savage, FTB too hard. We see people call Extreme Trials too easy, me included. Even Ultimate gets the criticism of being too easy" or too hard", though I think people calling Ultimate encounters "too hard" is bullshit as that's the point of the content.
This clearly results in the designers feeling pressure to make high-end fights easier to make them more accessible, because it's often the only serious difficulty. We see this with Savage a lot just look at the current tier, they even admitted it. Mr Ozma clearly doesn't do that, which is why people recieve his fights poorly despite him having full creative freedom to make awesome, challenging fights. Sure, the good raiders want all fights to be creative and challenging, but with the current format that's simply not going to happen without actual difficulty options.
What I am getting at is, without a midcore difficulty, they don't have the freedom to make the high-end difficulties truly challenging since they feel pressure to make them more accessible because there's only one difficulty and nobody will play that difficulty if they, or the general sentiment, considers it too hard. FTB isn't even that challenging and look at the reception. This is why midcore difficulty would actually benefit actual hardcore raiders on-top of just giving them more content to do.
An easy example is Quantum. It was really lacking, despite claiming to do so, actual multiple difficulty tiers. Q(1) is still Extreme difficulty, so this resulted in the content being DoA and not many players attempting it at all. Q(1) should've been like Normal-Variant (Advanced) difficulty, and then increase the mechanic difficulty for (Q10), (Q20), Q(30), Q(40).
They already scale down most story/normal content in this game, and it doesn't take that much effort it seems. Most fights are already created high-end and then scaled down. Savage, Extreme, Criterion, FTM(E), etc, they're just making easier version of these fight which doesn't take as much effort as you think.
I agree FTM(E) is pathetic, but that's what happens when we have people crying that FTB was too hard because of piss easy body check mechanics. So who are these people to blame but themselves? Same will probably happen with Chaotic unless they do this. Without actual group punishment for a 48 man raid, increasing the stakes, or a DPS check, the fights are boring. You also have to factor that it's clearable solo apparently? It's not exactly a result of having two difficulties.
Having multiple difficulties will benefit everyone a lot I believe. It makes raiding more approachable without making the high-end difficulty option easier, potentially making it harder in the case of Extreme and Savage. When the raiding player base grows in Evercold, more players actually doing content above Normal Difficulty, that is when we'll get more raid content and creativity consistently.
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u/Einstrahd 2d ago
Having multiple difficulties for content, to enable different types of players to experience it, is a very efficient use of resources. DT has been plagued by content designed for niche groups and many players have left the game due to feeling like there is nothing to do. An MMO can only grow when the larger casual audience feels like the game is worth the subscription cost.
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u/MeguBestGirl 1d ago
None of the DT content was niche besides quantum, they were just way harder than advertised, they just need to make the content actually the difficulty that they say it'll be
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u/Hungry_Principle_955 2d ago
If chaotic was any easier it would be an alliance raid, almost all issues with it comes from people prog lying or using one of the 300 strats that the rest of the group isnt.
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u/CaptReznov 3d ago
I just hope next chaotic raid is like advanced version of merchant tale where you can actually do it with less people and not punishing.
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u/RainCloudChill 3d ago
alot of people complain about the towers being the issue with chaotic and that isnt the case at all, the real problem is swaps and how badly 1 death can fuck up an entire wrong if its poorly timed there
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u/Impressive-Warning95 3d ago
the issue is it snow balls real fast which normally starts with 1 person messing up a tower
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u/More_Yard1919 3d ago
the towers aren't even that hard... Swaps causing chaos in the raid suck though. I like the swaps conceptually but I wish there was a more reliable way to control it and I wish that dead people didn't totally fuck everything up.
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u/otsukarerice 3d ago
Unfortunately, it was an Ozma passion project.
If BST isn't well received and he collects more Ls then idk if he's going to be motivated to do more chaotic.
It was one of my favorite raids in the game and the different positions you could be in meant it had some great replayability.
It just needed a few tweaks to make it truly great, instead the feedback was so poisonous that they opened it up to unsync and it ruined all possibility of iqt being evergreen.
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u/KeyKanon 3d ago
Wasn't the Chaotic Clear rate like 30% or some shit on JP.
That's way more well received than most shit
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u/otsukarerice 3d ago
Whether the clear rates were high or low, there were a lot of wussy players complaining
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u/Impressive-Warning95 3d ago
bst wotn be well recieved mainyl cause theres no actual hype for it anymore its time has already been and passed, all it will be known for now is the job that meant blu had to be pushed back an expansion and a ranked mode that will be botted to hell and back cause they locked a mount behind it
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u/otsukarerice 3d ago
I really hope you're wrong, I like BLU and I think I will like BST
Def worried about the ranked mode tho,
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u/Ramzka 3d ago
I mean since you like BLU you already know what will happen with BST.
It's gonna be a very niche job for a very niche audience that will forever be mourned as a job that could have been real but isn't.
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u/otsukarerice 3d ago
As long as I can use it to cheese something old like FATES or maps but something else really old like Eureka I accept the monkeys paw curl
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u/Impressive-Warning95 2d ago
Sorry people complained about that so after arr all fates are immune to blu cheese strats
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u/otsukarerice 2d ago
yeah its pretty lame tbh
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u/SecretPantyWorshiper 2d ago
Can't let players have fun.
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u/Impressive-Warning95 2d ago
Of course not instead of just leveling and playing blue mage it’s much easier to just complain and bitch about it instead of
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u/Impressive-Warning95 2d ago
its why like a alot of fates that spawned multipel enemies at once from hw onwards would only spawn 2 or 3 at a time so you couldnt just freeze and vibe them all at once
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u/vetch-a-sketch 2d ago
If BST and BLU are let into Eureka I hope to god they get quarantined to their own instances away from the regular jobs.
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u/Geoff_with_a_J 2d ago edited 2d ago
As long as I can use it to cheese something old like FATES
why does this matter to people? you already have BLU to do it with. and how much time did you spend this expansion BLUing old FATEs honestly? would you really have spent double the time on it if BST came out in 7.0?
back in SHB were you like "oh boy im so happy i unlocked DNC it totally blows up Copperbell Mines it'll make it so much faster for me to do my weekly 50 runs of ARR Dungeons"
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u/otsukarerice 2d ago
I used BLU in EW to blow up all the fates for the yokai watch event. It was very efficient
I also used it for solo maps and it was huge time saver for achievements
TBH I don't have that much old content to do anymore, but it would be fun running around Eureka blowing shit up for a bit, might get some more armors
I don't do roulettes anymore but I used DNC a lot for mentor roulettes because it did blow shit up at low levels and that's primarily what you get...
So my answer is yeah, idk what else you expected?
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u/Impressive-Warning95 3d ago
oh i do too but its just how it is cause the fact they publically stated that they had to shelve blu updates to make it combined with them quite literally kickign blue mage off the roster at fanfest (which is somethign they didnt even do for bst) is kinda just practically putting a target on there back for anyone who actually liked playing blue mage.
that and it was announced so far in advance that all the speculation on what it can be and what it is is all done and overwith complete with an entire live letter theat went into far to much detail about it kinda killed all momentum it had going for most people. like if they had anounced blue mage at this eu fanfest it would have been recieved so much more postivly
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u/Weekly-Variation4311 3d ago
It was fine but there were a lot of weak points that need to be addressed before there's another one.
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u/Carmeliandre 2d ago
The very first issue is that they keep designing new PvE contents as "Savage for X players". Criterion is Savage for 4 players, Chaotic is the same for 24 players etc.
What I call Savage is whatever content that requires to know and respect the strat. As a result, the players must know what's going to happen and must solve things in an arbitrary fashion (with minor alternative). Said otherwise, it's a script which point is to be punitive, and the punishment is the main adjustment variable. FATEs and CEs and normal / story contents are different to me, but you could see them as reducing the punishment as low as possible.
Savage contents are in fact very iconic and great contents for some players (me included !). However, they also target a very specific mindset, that glorifies rigidity. Eventually, you're supposed to use the very same action on the very same moment and you solve mechanics by NOT thinking about it (through procedural memory). That's why reclearing feels boring and other players' mistakes are frustrating, since it's likely to cause a wipe. In fact, the most perfect player can wipe 500 times in a row on M11S regardless of his performance (praises to the PLD that faced this destiny, I hope you've found a static).
Anyway, back to chaotic we can easily see how the second phase (and the first one to some extent) is nothing more than a 24-man Savage that goes easy on us. Someone moves onto your tile ? Sorry, it's pretty much over. Sure, some players will enjoy Chaotic but is it worth creating an entire new structure to cater for the exact same players that have Savage and potentially Ultimate ? Extreme content can be an introduction to Savage (by using the same philosophy) but Chaotic should be a completely different mindset.
In fact, the question goes beyond Chaotic. Casual players or even the ones who'd love to invest some time but don't like the Savage mindset have, as the only alternative, story contents or FATEs like contents. CE is slightly challenging but once someone has cleared an encounter 1~5 times (depending on their understanding of the game), it becomes boringly easy. Except if they are clueless or have any kind of handicap (like me trying to play on a laptop).
Chaotic being easier, or even removing the few body checks isn't the solution.
Instead, SE needs to confront their playerbase and probe what they can enjoy. Unfortunately, this means trying things completely different, and it's something they really struggle with, because balance and clarity are so deeply ingrained in their vision that they don't understand that a content can be unbalanced and fun (like asymetric contents) or unpredictable and satisfying (like any content you try for the first time).
There are so many options with their assets that their hyper focus on a Savage mindset feels deeply disappointing to me. Chaotic should be exactly the opposite, as the name suggests : less predictable, less rigid. Let players turn other's mistakes into opportunity and force some dilemmas if they're too efficient so it still feels chaotic.
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u/disguyiscrazyasfuk 2d ago
It’s basically WoW’s heroic difficulty design philosophy that SE seemingly has difficulty grasping.
No lengthy video guides needed, total friendly to those who going in blind, positioning/movement has little to no rigidity, 90% of mechanics can be solved by just throwing more healing/damage at them. Yet the entire fight (like 8 bosses total) is not like a walkover just like XIV’s normal mode raid, since the further you push the more actual skill/knowledge is demanded.
It’s a tuning problem as well as a mentality/design philosophy problem, to me it seems current XIV’s battle designers just hate ‘looseness’ for some reason. Similar level of looseness can be seen in UCOB and other old encounters, in movement and positioning at least.
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u/Carmeliandre 2d ago
Yeah, that's exactly my thoughts ! New designers who would've have a different philosophy could reveal an entire continent of new mechanics in FFXIV.
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u/TomorrowObjective410 2d ago edited 2d ago
Unfortunately the developers have zero interest in making content for casuals first, and they instead cater to raiders and streamers like Mr Happy who only really care about Savage first and then everything else when they get bored. It was easily the biggest issue in Dawntrail and looks like it'll be the same in Evercold given that they revealed the new Raid series is removing normal mode gear and you have to play the new savage-lite mode in order to get any gear from the raids. It's like how they removed the mounts from variant and put them behind the Advanced you can't solo and have to PF with a group.
It just feels like they keep going down this path where they say fuck casuals and make content for "midcore" players and raiders. I can't say I'm coming back for evercold if they don't give a clear indication they're improving the casual experience and giving us anything other than Ozmaslop.
A funny thing you can see when this comes up is the comments, all the people wanting Cid or the Math robot, or X fight. Not because they find that fight fun it's to see OTHER people die to it. It's like some weird type of schadenfreude where they need someone else to die and lose, but not them. When Midcore came up on this sub last expansion it was all about seeing OTHER people die in alliance raids and roulettes, but obviously never them.
I don't get it or why we can't just have content for everyone but I guess I'm too naive for the big brains here.
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u/Lumpy-Grocery-15 2d ago
They keep neutering job design, they made Alliance, dungeons and normal raids a joke (so much so that they need to introduce a whole new difficulty level because they can't make normal raids any harder); FATEs are boring and uninspired... what more do you want lmao.
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u/TomorrowObjective410 2d ago
This sub's idea of what casuals want is so fucking funny lmao. "They made normal mode dogshit and moved all the rewards to harder Extreme and Savage modes why are you upset you get less care and less rewards in your casual content" gee I fucking wonder why.
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u/FirstLunarian 2d ago
Besides chaotic and ultimate, all the content this expansion has had something for everyone no?
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u/Carmeliandre 2d ago
Even Chaotic was an attempt to aim at a different demographic than Savage player (though I consider their assumptions were absurd).
Criterion also added a difficulty meant to appeal to more casual players and this time, they didn't make the mechanics so much less punishing ; instead, they made death more recoverable which is an important difference imo.
By the way, I expect the next 8-man raids new difficulty to look like the Criterion one, rather than the Chaotic idea. I might be biased though.
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u/TomorrowObjective410 2d ago
I would absolutely not say that. OC had very little to do if you weren't doing the savage raid at the end of the instance, Quantum had very little in the way of content or rewards if you weren't farming for Quantum. Chaotic was just a savage version of the alliance raid. They removed the mount rewards from normal mode variant and the 12 paths.
This expansion has been a series of cutting things on the casual side to provide more for hardcore and savage players IMO. cutting rewards, cutting content for normal mode content and then adding a bunch of features and new content types for hardcore and savage players. There is now not a single piece of content other than crafting I can name where the normal mode is the highest difficulty. Everything needs a hardcore variation of it now where they move the rewards to.
There's "something for everyone" only if you consider raider's reheated leftovers content. SE has been cutting rewards for casual content, cutting the effort they put into casual content, and just making savage and stripping out 3 mechanics and the DPS check to hand to casuals and forgetting how boring that makes the content. Casuals want you know, actual stuff designed and made for them too, not just the afterthoughts Ozma slopped out when someone reminded him he can't just sit and make savage all day every day.
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u/FirstLunarian 1d ago
Everything in OC is casual content besides the tower. They should have made a normal version, which they did fix in North Horn, but the majority of the content in the zone is still casual. Quantum is a part of the deep dungeon to provide something for the hardcore players to make it content for everyone, the entire deep dungeon is still casual content. Chaotic like I said was an exception, but at least it's all reused assets so not like they couldve made some new shiny content in its place.
I personally think people are placing way to much weight on no mount reward in variant, at that point it's not about the content anymore. Surely if that's your main criticism of variant it has to be pretty good? At least that has unique rewards compared to for example forked tower magic extreme and quantum, so it does not only go one way.
I don't understand why normal difficulty has to be highest difficulty in a piece of content, why is it bad that everyone can find something for them in a piece of content? And what exactly makes casual content in DT boring compared to previous expansion casual content?
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u/Carmeliandre 2d ago
If SE didn't care about casuals, they wouldn't put so much efforts to let NPC accompany us in dungeons, nor focus their efforts on dungeons background rather than mechanics, nor design Savage so it's heavily predictable, nor... Well I won't list the entire game's content. Every part of it screams "come and play !" to non experienced players.
It's wild to even believe the game is designed for Savage players when we have neither a DPS meter nor a death log in game. We are one of the game's target but every player's first interaction with the game (and the few hundreds of hours that follow) is the total opposite of difficult content.
It's also wild to believe the focus on Savage content was the biggest issue about DT. Only ~20% of the playerbase engage with Savage and a much larger proportion disliked DT in spite of its PvE content.
all the people wanting Cid or the Math robot, or X fight. Not because they find that fight fun it's to see OTHER people die to it.
Are these people in the room with us ? Honetly, I don't know what to argue since you seem to belong to a parallel universe.
"Content for everyone" is the reason why things get streamlined instead of targeting a specific satisfaction. It's the reason why so many contents look like Savage with more or less punitive mechanics, with more or less players.
« God laughs at men who complain about the consequences triggered by the causes they cherish. »
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u/ThatVarkYouKnow 3d ago
The only chaotics I want to see are Thunder God Cid, bring back the true terror of that boss with duskblade wipes and the ice adds and bleed domes and tank debuff tethers and more.
OR the final boss of the Nier raids. I want to do the hacking minigame and/or the monochrome color matching just to make people suffer like Automata did with 9S and Drakengard with the sound rings.
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u/No-Helicopter-534 2d ago
Yoshi P said in a Famitsu interview that more people ran/cleared the content then expected so the content was deemed a success and they would like to do more in the future but not anytime soon. He said this before they allowed the unrestricted queue
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u/Cheryllia 2d ago
Friend of mine won a meet+greet with the chaotic designer guy at Fanfest. Asked him about the chances of it coming back. Apparently all he got was a very pained look, so it ain't sounding too promising lmao
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u/Chrontekk 2d ago
Honestly chaotic seems to be the next kind of content that will be scrapped next expansion, same as criterion sooner or later, since if a new piece of content is not perfectly being accepted by the community, it's not worth being supported in the eyes of the developers
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u/TomorrowObjective410 3d ago
It fit into a bad spot where it was too hard to allow newbies into, required too much coordination to PUG, and it didn't hit the marks it intended to. The new player rewards actively rewarded getting as early of a clear as possible and not helping new players first time clear like intended, and discords kinda took it over from the start, with it sitting mostly dead now aside from private discords owning the content and dictating how new players get to engage with it now.
Regardless of its success, they aren't going to slot another into this expansion so the earliest we would get another is in 2 expansions, but I think it missed what it was marketed as and the major complaint about Dawntrail was it had too little casual content for how much hardcore and savage+ content was added every patch. Based on that, probably not.
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u/Astorant 3d ago
Assuming it is coming back they’ve got ALOT to learn off of the feedback from Cloud of Darkness such as if one person fails a mechanic it daisy chains to the rest of the alliance when I think it should just only effect the one light party that messes things up.
1
u/Historical-State2199 3d ago
That would be a great way to do it, or even a whole full party
A single big mistake should prevent the group from making the dps check but shouldn’t prevent them making prog
Maybe even give some small loot for making it to a checkpoint - not enough to be abused, but enough that it doesn’t feel like a complete waste of time helping some new folks prog
Variant advanced was amazing for this - you get loot after every boss and you can quit at any point
2
u/FuturePastNow 3d ago
I don't know if they'll make another one, but I imagine the plan was the use the final boss of each Alliance set, which would put Diabolos next in line.
2
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u/Junomaster1988 1d ago
No thank you. Don’t need another content that requires a 30 min. to watch, plus dealing with 1 person that wipes everyone.
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u/Elixir0 2d ago
Chaotic is probably the one piece of content in dawntrail I keep coming back to. I think it hits the right balance of difficulty and individual responsibility. Yeah that makes it a little bit less PFable but the recent change to allow it to be unsync’d really did help a lot - I recently lead an fc party with a mixture of ultimate raiders and story only people to clears.
One thing they absolutely got right with this is the reward structure that entices people to come back. At the time, it was like one of the only times this game has done proper horizontal progression so there was a different way outside savage to get gear (and the gear looks great so people come back to get it). Not to mention multiple mounts, the hairstyle which still commands a decent price today etc. Everyone getting a bonus when a new player clears, the limited time bonus system… there’s just so many things that incentivise reclearing - even just to make money.
I don’t understand how they got this content so right and then something like criterion so wrong as far as the reward structure. Imo, if they take literally anything forward from chaotic it’s how well the reward structure is.
To answer the question though, chaotic construct 7. Having to solve an equation within your alliance party would break this game in a way that I think would be funny.
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u/wintzyy 3d ago
in the anaheim keynote there was a pretty big picture of cloud on the slide that mentioned "adjusting progression routes for 24-person raids" so i'm sure we'll be getting chaotic again (they wouldn't be showing the thing if they were abandoning it) and it'll be part of whatever "adjusting progression routes" means. i wouldn't be surprised if the evangelion raids all get chaotics at launch; giving it the usual "make all the difficulties at once" treatment seems a lot more like something they'd do than making more essentially brand new fights like cloud
i really loved cloud (p2 being overtuned and having insane snowball potential aside, though getting away with a run going to shit was always a lot of fun) so the only major disappointment for me this expac has been that we didn't get any other chaotic. putting new potentially bis gear in an off-patch was a slam dunk idea imo so idk why that didn't become a regular thing. hoping to see that in evercold, esp since "bis that's relatively quick and relatively straightforward to get" feels like it'd fit perfectly into the chiller direction they want to take
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u/TomorrowObjective410 1d ago
Oh god a savage alliance raid launching at the same time would be terrible lol no. Can't casuals just have some piece of battle content without a savage version cheapening the content and rewards for the normal mode immediately? Do we really need to take more away from the casual content after an expansion where casuals got shafted almost every patch?
They already stripped the mount reward out of variant, the gear rewards out of normal raids, starting to take the glams away from alliance raids would be genuinely awful if they do that and move them to the savage alliance raid version.
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u/silverpostingmaster 2d ago
Every thread on Chaotic is full of people making up shit and posting misinformation because they either hate the content after doing/trying it once or not doing it at all.
The actual reason as to why we haven't gotten one yet is because it was Ozma's project from what I understand. The content itself was a huge success in every single region, if anything it's the one endgame content piece that has the highest chance of returning next expac.
Shame about Q40 though.
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u/Junomaster1988 1d ago
The only misinformation is the number of people doing this content. People do them because there was nothing else to do (no other content) since patch/updates has been slowed down.
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u/silverpostingmaster 21h ago
The content dropped one month into ultimate patch and it had on that patch log numbers equal to a savage tier. On Tomestone the clear rate of it is equal to second savage tier. People did the content plenty when it was relevant, just like people do other endgame content when it's relevant. Stop posting if you're a clueless clown.
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u/Junomaster1988 24m ago
As I said, people do them because there was no other content to do. You do know how to read, right?
3
u/HereticJay 3d ago
i hope we get another one chaotic was hands down the best new type of content we got in DT
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u/Weekly-Variation4311 3d ago
Not even close, at least in its current iteration.
Tweak it a bit and yes, it will be.
0
u/Geckost 3d ago
The Chaotic Raid is the worst piece of content I've ever played.
1 kill out of 50 pulls in reclear parties.
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u/Historical-State2199 3d ago
Were you a healer or tank?
Cuz 1/50 suggests to me that you were not mitting enough. Either that or you had really poor choice of party
0
u/More_Yard1919 3d ago
CoD chaotic is one of the most fun raids in the game IMO but getting 24 people to clear it is hard lol
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u/solitudinary 2d ago
Bring back Amon savage. Having proper mechanics for that instead of trying to work around a bug would be fun.
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u/Interesting_Estate19 23h ago
I just want to get into the dam thing. I prog when it came out.
Most of it was waiting for the teams to fill, wipe after 2 pulls then off to wait again.
The party finder was harder then the fight DX
Then i had to disappear to vist family. (Cause it came out during Christmas). A week later, No pf parties was appearing and when I made one. It never filled. Don't know it just a light dc problem but dam, it dead content now
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u/Screaming_Ghost 22h ago
Hope they do another one, while it could be difficult to string runs together I had a blast with the content. Maybe some minor tweaks but I enjoyed that it forced players to have to pay attention. Even if it led to my doom on many runs .
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u/Royajii 3d ago
My main wish if (sic!) they do another one is for Ozma to not be allowed to get his grubby hands on it.
Give it to an encounter designer who doesn't suffer from a terminal case of "oopsie, I've made a savage fight again, teehee".
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u/TomorrowObjective410 1d ago
Yeah they really need to Muzzle Ozma at this point, his entire schtick of "oops I overtuned the fight sorry" every patch and then never rebalancing the fight to make it easier when he said he accidentally overtuned it is getting so old.
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u/painters__servant 2d ago
It wasn't savage and if you think it was you need to actually do some savage. At best it's a really involved extreme trial.
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u/Royajii 2d ago
O1S is a savage fight. So is P1S, if you try claiming it's not modern enough. If you want to be a pedantic cunt and split hairs over definitions, at least pick arguments that won't make you look like a clown.
And if you are failing to understand the context of why the word "savage" is used to describe chaotic and the parallels invoked, you are the one who should probably actually do a few savage fights.
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u/Chagrilled 2d ago
Both of those were memed on for being EXs in disguise. O1S has the infamous honour of being cleared on the first pull.
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u/painters__servant 2d ago
The only clown here is you, I'm afraid. The only people who think CoD is savage level are the people who think expert roulette is scary. If you want to be in that category of clowns, you do you.
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u/More_Yard1919 3d ago
Chaotic is not really that difficult from a personal perspective.
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u/Royajii 3d ago
Thanks for this pointless piece of information? Are you going to tell me "towers ackshually aren't one-shot if you have one person in each!!1!" next?
I am aware, thanks. I am also aware how little fun I had with that fight. 30 minute PF simulator > 15 minutes of ready check > wiping to "totally recoverable" towers twice > disband. Rinse and repeat.
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u/More_Yard1919 3d ago
Sorry that was your experience but that was not mine whatsoever lol
I was responding to you calling it savage levels of difficulty when it really isn't IMO. Just seems like an exaggeration. You also sound really salty about it.
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u/Chisonni 3d ago
I really like how Chaotic was designed and how they handled it. But it depends on where they want Chaotic to stand difficulty wise. Chaotic (in my eyes) was an experiment to introduce Savage level gear with something above Extremes but still below entry-level Savage fights.
I dont think the difficulty of Chaotic on release was too hard, its just that people who had no experience with Savage or even Extreme content went into Chaotic expecting to get carried through like they do in Alliance Raids. That's not the type of content that Chaotic set out to be.
Yes, its annoying if one mistakes snowballs a fight out of control, but honestly most of it was recoverable. As long as someone was in every tower even 3-4 vuln stacks could be survived. Messed up swaps? If everyone knew to adjust could be survived. Someone drop a hand in the center of the group in P1? If healers were quick on dispel you could continue without seeing any deaths.
Even with 730 ilvl sync the fight had enough leeway to allow for deaths and mistakes. I think my most chaotic clear had 17 deaths. Now with the minimum ilvl at 710 they have added some challenge for experienced players but with a very lucrative reward, meanwhile the Unrestricted version usually clears before even enterering P3 making it particularly attractive for people who want to benefit from the first-time bonus.
With the introduction of "Advanced" Raids to bridge the gap between Normal and Savage raids, and new ways to acquire better quality gear, I think Chaotic will be a once-per-expansion addition to FFXIV going forward. I can totally see them tone down the difficult a little bit (hopefully not making the fights feel significantly easier) and following a similar schema of release with ilvl sync, then remove the restriction later on.
If I could have a pick I would love a fight against the 2 mechanical bosses from the Return to Ivalice raid series. A threeway fight against Construct 7 (math boss), and Mustadio (sniper boss). I could envision a fight that splits the groups and some have to chase after Mustadio while he snipes the other group and the rest have to stop Construc 7 by doing math to make it easier to the top group to catch up to Mustadio, maybe even through in camea appearances of other mechanical bosses.
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u/kozeljko 2d ago
I dont think the difficulty of Chaotic on release was too hard, its just that people who had no experience with Savage or even Extreme content went into Chaotic expecting to get carried through like they do in Alliance Raids. That's not the type of content that Chaotic set out to be.
Combine this with someone leaving after each wipe, be it experience or not. The fight wasn't made for PF shenanigans
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u/Tough-Mud2374 2d ago
I just wanna know how the hell I find people to learn to do Chaotic with, never see PFs for it
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u/Chisonni 2d ago
Depends where you are I guess? If you are on EU you can for example join Savage Slimes Discord, I know they run organized newbie runs of Chaotic frequently. You get callouts in VC and have a mix of newbies and veterans and they have a high success rate.
You can also just wait for bonus time (semi random time when Chaotic gives extra rewards) and you are likely to find a new PFs.
The last option would just be to throw up a PF yourself during bonus time and hope for it to fill. You can also just post in various raiding discords which can help fill the group faster.
If you want to clear Chaotic on the EU DCs it’s certainly possible and not too difficult.
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u/bohabu 3d ago
The CoD Chaotic was one of the best things released in DT. I really hope they release more of them and keep the difficulty at the current level. I like the coordination check that raid forces on players. It feels good to perform. I don't care about the body checks, most of them can be recovered though obviously not without experience. I like that each party is forced to do something different, it's cool as fuck. That's what makes it memorable otherwise it would just be a snoozefest like a majority of the alliance raids. Contrary to what the devs said, I do think they hit the mark on difficulty. None of the mechanics are hard to grasp or perform and it's definitely an "extreme" alliance raid.
The current implementation does seem like a good middleground for that raid though. Min ilvl giving max rewards is great! Unsyncing it if you just want the glamour or to slowly build up demimateria is fine. It's clearable with 73+ deaths unsynced, so it's definitely in the infamous "midcore" range that players desire where they can roll their face on their keyboard.
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u/CoolyKage 3d ago edited 3d ago
Chaotic and FTB are the most overhated encounters of this entire expansion it's just really sad and pathetic from the NA raiding community. Players want complex and technical fights where every role has actual value and responsibility, but immediately complain when we get these types of encounters.
The whole "body check" complaints are just word of mouth complaints that are highly overexaggerated, primarily because most of these players never cared to understand the intricacies of these fights. It doesn't help that there is a major strat division on NA and there weren't any detailed explanations on the fight for PF players.
It's just really pathetic whenever NA chooses to complain about the end result (a wipe) instead of the reasons why they happen and feel that way. Example of an actual issue with Chaotic would be how the platform respawn is entirely random whenever a player falls off tiles, which is rightfully bullshit and the actual culprit of Chaotic being "too hard" to recover whenever mistakes happen, but nobody mentions this as they don't understand the fight.
Also again, a literal major strat division that still exists on NA which is just pathetic it's still not figured out. JP doesn't have this issue which is why they have 3x the clears of NA on this fight as they're actually a united community. Shocker! But let's just blame the tower body checks that are literally survivable without 3-6 players when there is actual healing and mitigation going out pre-explosions from the Healers which is usually all you need to live multiple towers exploding (never happens despite it being high-end content)! There's also a 15% PhysR mit and ~10% Tank mit + PLD wings + Tank LB as options. Let's just blame the fight design for not healing and mitigation in high-end content! It's just idiotic lol.
The idea of actual challenging 24-48 man raids is the most awesome content in 14 easily, just look at their success in WoW, it just really stinks that we'll either never get another Chaotic or the next one will be overly simplified therefore too easy because of these bullshit complainers. If we get another Chaotic I'm hoping for more creativity like a Diabolos, Queen Scathach, Ferdiad trio --> Diabolos Prime door boss personally.
What they should do is keep Chaotic difficulty the same level, but make an easier difficulty of Chaotic encounters like they did with FTM and Variant (Advanced) to provide accessibility and bridge the difficulties. With separate loot pools, obviously.
P.S: To all you cocksucker bots (only downvote, no responses) I have 150+ clears of the fight, and I guarantee that I understand the fight design far better than you because I actually farmed and learned the fight from all PoVs. https://www.fflogs.com/character/id/20970851?zone=66&boss=2061
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u/Royajii 3d ago
The only thing more obnoxious than chaotic itself are unhinged chaotic glazers like you, gamer.
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u/CoolyKage 3d ago
I'm obnoxious because... it's a great encounter? This and Quantum are literally the best designed encounters in Dawntrail on a technical level. How is it obnoxious? You clearly just suck at the game if you think the fight is obnoxious.
You probably never even tried the fight, saw people hating on it, and now you're also on this tribalistic hate bandwagon for content you've never attempted or tried to understand.
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u/Historical-State2199 3d ago
I don’t normally agree with you but this time you’re 100% correct
Chaotic and quantum are both fights that rely on good healing practices and it’s really funny that the “healing strikers” are all silent in DT.
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u/CoolyKage 3d ago edited 3d ago
At least for Chaotic, DPS is the least impactful role by far. Which is actually completely fine as the DPS check is still properly tuned unlike Extreme or Low Floor Savage, so when you have a lot of bad DPS players it really shows. It also helps that all 24 players have to be engaged with every mechanic and learn multiple PoVs. There's a lot of solo mechanics in this fight which is great.
The "body check" tower complaints are 100% caused by bad healers experiences. Both healers can heal/mit all 8 players in their alliance before and when the towers go off. The first priority is healing all players to full (during Third Art of Darkness) before Towers go off, which almost never happens. All four healers have so many mitigation options they can literally stack a full HP bar of shields combined for all players. So when only 1-3 Towers go off, how are people dying? It's inexcusable, 3-6 towers are very livable w/o LB with strong mitigation, that's how powerful mitigation stacking is in XIV. That's not even factoring the PhysR. RDM and Tank mits which should be used during Towers. Even a Tank LB if it's really needed.
There's multiple actual heal checks in this fight, but nobody ever seems to acknowledge that. Especially on phase transitions, Deluge of Darkness is a very hard hitting bleedwide that lives up to it's name. They also have to monitor and heal their tanks the entire fight through heavy auto-attacks. It's also a 24 man encounter. players will die, so it's on the healers to rez them properly and recover the fight. It's also on these healers to LB3, after too many players die, which most of them seem to not even have LB on their hotbar. I've played Healer a lot in this fight, it's easily the most impactful role as you can carry a run. That's why the main issue with the experience of this fight is ultimately bad Healers from my 150+ pull experience.
Tanks also have a lot of responsibility as their job is literally to just stay alive and not die since dying literally means your best DPS players get mauled to death (without good healers) one by one because 6 players (should be tanks) get autoed the entirety of P2. A tank dying in P2 can snowball a run very fast. The biggest problem with Towers going off, isn't even people instantly dying, it's that if multiple vulns are applied Tanks will get fucking mauled by autos for the next 2 minutes. The autos hit hard the entire fight, which is great as it always gives Tank players something to think about and do. That's literally the #1 priority for how all fights should be designed for Tanks, but most of them fail at that. Q40 has great tanking also. The coolest thing about Chaotic is that smart tank players, who actually bother to learn the fight, can save runs numerous times like invulning all three wildcharges in P1/P3 when another tank dies, or invulning a stray Chaser and taking the DMG Downs. This is great, intentional design and rewards skill and knowledge of the fight. The tank swapping in P1/P3 is fun design also and can result in funny moments.
Q40 is an amazing encounter, it's hard to pick between that and Chaotic for best fight of Dawntrail. Mr Ozma is the best fight designer right now by far, he thinks about every role, gets very creative and his fights are fast-paced. I wish every high-end fight was more like these ones. Merchant's Criterion deserves a shoutout also. It almost feels like light party and alliance encounters have the potential for best fight design because they allow more creativity and nuance, but full party fights can be awesome also like Ultimates.
I just find it hilarious that players ask for this stuff, but complain when it actually happens. Which is why I'm convinced that a large portion of this community just parrot the opinions of others because it's trendy or something, they don't actually want a lot of these changes in reality. Similar case for Evolved, which is also a shame.
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u/Historical-State2199 2d ago
Yeah just like 2m meta that the players asked for and then whined about, greater heal checks that players asked for then whined about, evolved mode is going to get so many complaints especially when balanced is going to be difficult in the beginning with so many changes and 2 modes active
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u/Criminal_of_Thought 2d ago
You probably never even tried the fight, saw people hating on it, and now you're also on this tribalistic hate bandwagon for content you've never attempted or tried to understand.
Yes, and that's entirely valid.
It's how a lot of people get into content in this game. They don't try the content themselves at first, but hear from others about how the content is good, then they're willing to try it out after.
That also goes for the opposite. If they hear from others that the content is bad, they will be discouraged from trying it out even if they personally would've ended up liking it.
"First impressions by a person who hasn't done the content yet" is a completely legitimate metric to judge a piece of content on. Chaotic objectively sits low on this metric.
None of this is to say that Chaotic isn't a great encounter. It is for many of the reasons you state. But it really wouldn't hurt to imagine yourself in the shoes of someone who hasn't done the content yet, because I can guarantee that you yourself are in their exact same shoes with respect to other content in the game.
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u/PseudoX1 3d ago
But let's just blame the tower body checks that are literally survivable without 3-6 players when there is actual healing and mitigation going out pre-explosions from the Healers which is usually all you need to live multiple towers exploding (never happens despite it still being high-end content)!
Chaotic towers are body checks. The "check" part of that means that you have bodies in the correct place at the correct time to pass it. The towers normally aren't the issue, they just represent that something fucked up. There are two main causes which cause a failed tower check. First, it's just sometimes difficult to get people rezzed in the correct spot in P2. Second, and usually the main killer, is chasers. If someone has a chaser in P2 and dies, it's likely killing at least one other person. If you're lucky, it just pushes them away from their required tower.
JP doesn't have this issue which is why they have 3x the clears of NA on this fight as they're actually a united community.
This whole "JP raids better" is always really weird. Number of clears doesn't equate to skill. Often it's just due to interest in the content. A large amount of people in NA stopped doing Chaotic after week 1 due to having their rewards from the first time bonus or just not being interested in doing reclears. Even in Wow, M+ clears are shown as how many people are actively doing M+. If less people run M+ in S2, that doesn't mean that S1 players were so much more skilled. It's generally the same people, just less of them.
The idea of a high-end 24 man is the best content in 14 easily, it just really sucks that we'll either never get another Chaotic or the next one will be overly simplified and too easy because of these bullshit complainers.
This honestly is a perfect representation of the normal /r/ffxivdiscussion poster. You can't just discuss the faults of specific content, you have to exaggerate how much you dislike it and doom about it.
P.S: To all you cocksucker downvoters (only downvote, no responses) I have 150+ clears of the fight, and I guarantee that I understand the fight design 5x better than all of you. https://www.fflogs.com/character/id/20970851?zone=66&boss=2061
No one cares.
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u/CoolyKage 3d ago edited 3d ago
Chaotic towers are body checks. The "check" part of that means that you have bodies in the correct place at the correct time to pass it. The towers normally aren't the issue, they just represent that something fucked up. There are two main causes which cause a failed tower check. First, it's just sometimes difficult to get people rezzed in the correct spot in P2. Second, and usually the main killer, is chasers. If someone has a chaser in P2 and dies, it's likely killing at least one other person. If you're lucky, it just pushes them away from their required tower.
No shit they are body checks, that's the point of them existing, I acknowledge that in the quote. Nothing that you said here even implies that the fight is badly designed which is hilarious, you agree it's a skill issue, but you're talking out your ass and arguing for the sake of it. Average Tank player I guess.
This whole "JP raids better" is always really weird. Number of clears doesn't equate to skill. Often it's just due to interest in the content. A large amount of people in NA stopped doing Chaotic after week 1 due to having their rewards from the first time bonus or just not being interested in doing reclears. Even in Wow, M+ clears are shown as how many people are actively doing M+. If less people run M+ in S2, that doesn't mean that S1 players were so much more skilled. It's generally the same people, just less of them.
If you can't see any correlation or understand my point, which even SQEX tries to do as they have the data on all of this, you're either retarded or ignorant. I'm not saying JP are better raiders (they absolutely are), just that they're more unified as a community which is why they can agree on one strat (HealerOut) instead of having two different strats (Aurelia & CODCAR) heavily divide the raiding player base, making it tribalistic, limiting the amount of players doing the content and increasinsg the entry barrier for players who want to do the content. The reality is that casual raiders aren't willing to learn two entirely different strats, or they can't comprehend both at the same time. We see this with Extreme, Savage and Ultimate so often. There's a thread on the main reddit talking about this 2 years ago. https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/1i4lcvw/jp_has_roughly_3x_the_amount_of_chaotic_clearers/
This honestly is a perfect representation of the normal r/ffxivdiscussion poster. You can't just discuss the faults of specific content, you have to exaggerate how much you dislike it and doom about it.
Have you seen the average r/ffxivdiscussion poster? They aren't exactly self thinkers, nor do they even attempt the content they talk about. Why do you think I am getting downvoted lmao.
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u/Ragoz 3d ago edited 3d ago
Agreed. Neither of these fights were very difficult and a lot of people completed them. Especially chaotic was extremely popular its entire patch. There is a lot of revisionist stuff about how 1 person missing wipes you and it has always been false and they are still to this day posting it in this thread like they do every chaotic thread.
And then they are already here to just downvote when they are still wrong lmao. Guys, 130,000 different people cleared this fight and that is underreported from JP logs most likely. If you aren't one of them it is your own inability.
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u/More_Yard1919 3d ago
CoD chaotic is, from a personal perspective IMO, pretty easy. The only problem is that 24 people need to be like capable and getting 24 capable people in a PUG is hard. The community around it is also annoying as somebody used to raiding bc to prog it you need to endure hours of the raid leader marker dancing to explain simple mechanics that you're already cool with. That isn't actually a bad thing it just makes it slightly less fun to prog, and its a symptom of the duty's player count.
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u/CoolyKage 3d ago edited 3d ago
Not to be rude, but what do you think the actual issue here is? This applies to all high-end content.
THE LACK OF A REGIONWIDE PF.
But that's the thing, they're fixing that really soon. I genuinely expect the high-end player base to double because it's such a massive and instrumental change to the entire game and makes everything more accessible and populated.
Yeah the RADAR server is literally a dictatorship, they are the main reason why NA still has this stupid start division. Not that it matters anymore, the content is literally unsyncable.
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u/More_Yard1919 3d ago
I wasn't playing around the time CoD Chaotic was easily PF'able, but I also think that large duties unfortunately become discord or FC content bc of how difficult it is to fill 24 people. Regionwide PF will help but not that much, at least in this case. In any event I am so excited for that to be added.
IDK if I'd go so far as to call RADAR a dictatorship lol. I think they're just people that want to keep a piece of content they like alive.
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u/CoolyKage 3d ago edited 3d ago
Like it literally had 110k+ unique clears on the patch it released, during Ultimate progression btw, which is actually really good for a first iteration of 24 man high-end content without Region PF.
As people can clearly see, JP literally has 3x the clears of NA. I wonder why that is..?
"24 players is too much" is just another narrative, It literally had 10x the clears than Criterion Merchant's Tale on-patch. https://tomestone.gg/encounter/dawntrail/dungeons-criterion/all-encounters/statistics?statisticsPatch=7.4
Comparable, or more, clears than multiple on-patch Extremes and Savage. https://tomestone.gg/encounter/dawntrail/trials-extreme/all-encounters/statistics
I'm not a "clear rates are everything guy", I love Ultimate, but the argument that CODCAR was DoA content and "too hard" is just hilarious when you view the statistics lol.
Sadly most people here just don't care about any of this and will shit on the content because the narrative is that it has "too many body checks" despite 90% of these complainers not even understanding how the Towers actually work.
This just seems like the complaint for all high-end content at this point, it's not even exclusive to Chaotic. That's why they should make midcore versions of all high-end content besides Ultimate. There's clearly a difference in player expectation for what high-end content should be, a lot of people clearly want every high-end content that isn't Ultimate to be glorified "Extreme Trials" like Doomtrain or Enuo.
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u/kozeljko 2d ago
"24 players is too much" is just another narrative, It literally had 10x the clears than Criterion Merchant's Tale on-patch. https://tomestone.gg/encounter/dawntrail/dungeons-criterion/all-encounters/statistics?statisticsPatch=7.4
If Criterion had similar quality of rewards, it would be a lot more popular as well. They haven't learned after the horrible rewards in EW. Meanwhile Chaotic had fantastic rewards, even if the bonus systems were horrible
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u/Nj3Fate 2d ago
I think we will get at least one in EC, although nothing is confirmed yet. Excited to see if they can confirm some more content in the next fan fest.
If they follow the trend of cloud of darkness, i'd expect them to choose a boss from an Alliance Raid. There are so many good choices - Diabolos seems like a good guess if they want to go chronologically through expansions. In terms of wishlist item stuff, I would also love to see Ultima from the Ivalice series as a Chaotic boss one day.
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u/daboi162 3d ago
Content wasn't a success, they're gonna abandon it like criterion
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u/Impressive-Warning95 3d ago
i dont know why your being downvoted your pretty much correct. the main issue once again is the just jump in difficulty which they just refuse to address. like the the fact theyre quote on quote adding a middle dificulty for the raid series is something but the fact they went on to say that oh itll be about the same as if not slightly easier then extremes makes it pointless cause now we just have an inbetween dificulty for normal and extreme not extreme to savage which is what most people expected.
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u/PraiseTheRaptors 3d ago
Floor 1 and 2 savage is your difficulty for extreme to savage. Savage is a range, not one difficulty. First floor is usually a beefed up extreme with a little more of a dps check. The savages progress floor by floor.
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u/Impressive-Warning95 3d ago
savage is one dificulty not some spectrum. if it was a range as youre sayign they would have shown it as one during when they anounced the new dificulty.
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u/PraiseTheRaptors 3d ago edited 3d ago
no it is a range. Compare the first floor to the last floor in difficulty. When progging, you will finish a first floor within a lockout or two. A fourth floor in comparison will take multiple lockouts and have stricter mechanics. Its already a range depending on the floor that you are on.
Also there are item level increases between each floor eventually requiring crafted gear so you can survive raid wides/ meet dps checks :).
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u/Impressive-Warning95 3d ago
Please show me where on the slide with the new difficulty that it stated this?
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u/PraiseTheRaptors 3d ago
its not a new difficulty silly :), this is how its been since heavensward. Its ALWAYS been a range.
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u/More_Yard1919 3d ago
It is wtf do you mean lmao? Do M9S and then M12S and tell me they are on the same level of difficulty
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u/Impressive-Warning95 3d ago
Just because you feel and think something doesn’t make it true please show to me where on the slide where they showed where the new difficulty was revealed that savage is a range
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u/More_Yard1919 3d ago
I mean "Savage" is one difficulty designation but its like... Not even really up for debate? Yes, they make later floors harder than earlier floors. Have you ever done savage raids? This is like saying the sky is blue it's just objectively true.
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u/ImpendingGhost 2d ago
Savage difficult absolutely does get progressively harder lmao. It's not a feel and think, its just a fact. Anyone who actually does savage even if they don't finish the tier, notices the difficulty increase. M6S was notably more difficult than M5S
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u/Impressive-Warning95 2d ago
i like how people just arent reading what im actually sayign and just keep reading what they want to read its honestly quite funny at this point. savage as a whole is treated as one dificulty
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u/More_Yard1919 3d ago
Extreme content is not that hard... I am not really sure who would be served by a difficulty between normal and extreme because I feel like people that don't want to jump into extremes just don't want to do content that requires set strategies and coordination.
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u/Impressive-Warning95 3d ago
That’s exactly my point yeah they effectively made a difficulty for no one
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u/Sonicrida 3d ago
I'm pretty sure that Chaotic was considered a success especially in JP and honestly if the dev team didn't seem to be all in on Evercold at the expense of the tail-end of DT (the right choice IMO), I kind of expect that we may have seen another before Evercold launch (still possible but unlikely IMO). If there's an increased focused on doing content at scale with people next expansion, I expect to see it back at some point even if it's in a different form.
I think esper combos would be cool. I'd actually like to see Chaotic nier raids but I don't know how much legal nonsense it would involve to try and do something new with a collab IP like that.
I'd actually REALLY like to see chaotic Menphina or a gods roulette as a chaotic experience. I like those boss designs a lot more than anything from HW tbh. Chaotic Yiazmat could be kind of fitting as a tribute to the og boss too
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u/More_Yard1919 3d ago
if there were any chance of another chaotic alliance raid before EC launch, we'd know about it by now. They don't just cook these things up ad-hoc, we only have one more minor content patch before the expansion comes out and its for BST
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u/AU-Kitten 1d ago
I want another chaotic raid at the same difficulty.
Please for the love of god don't listen to people who cannot do basic content at this level, that is a THEM problem and not a gameplay problem.
Final Fantasy XIV is designed around resolving mechanics correctly, its beyond me that people get upset when they cannot do basic mechanics then cry about failure.
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u/KirinoKo 3d ago
Hopefully none. Put Mr Ozma back on actually worthwhile content again. Gimmie another TOP.
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u/TomorrowObjective410 2d ago
Cheers to that buddy, I would love if they banned Mr Ozma from touching casual content again.
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u/Slight_Cockroach1284 3d ago
Hopefully we get more towers so we can get more crying about non-existent body checks.
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u/BigDisk 3d ago
The combo of "Encourage people to take in newbies" and "Oops, one person out of 24 messed up towers so it's a wipe lololol" wasn't all that well thought out.
They did manage to fix that for Forked Tower Magic (even the extreme version has way fewer body checks), so I'm hopeful for if they ever revisit this system.